As must be obvious from the title, this diary began as a comment in response to Suskind’s diary WE ARE NOT SCREWED .
Surely I know these views won’t be popular, but I’m accustomed to being the bad guy by now, and I simply cannot refrain from expressing my honest, heartfelt response to the ideas expressed there…so, fwiw, may the bitch-slapping begin.
As much as I hate to always be the “downer,” as much as I understand that people need periodic “pep talks” and signs of hope to continue the important work that we are all doing here…. as much as this post actually reaffirms what I have been repeating ad nauseum in just about everything I write (i.e., that the problem is with the people not the current regime)….my take on it simply cannot be as positive as Suskind’s. I appreciate and applaud the enthusiasm and optimism expressed there, but am not sure that this form of (naive?) optimism is the best recipe for success.
Suskind is right that it is “we, the people” who were originally vested with the “power”–but the problem, as I see it, is that this anonymous mass we call “we, the people” has completely relinquished that power–and this process has taken place over decades; reversing it will require as many or more.
Especially now, with the added factor of electronically rigged elections, we are screwed, at least until or unless we can mobilize many more than 59 million people–(and, in light of the rigging factor, simply getting them to vote will not be enough).
And that is the quandary we face: “we the people” have become a hopelessly complacent, hopelessly self-centered, egotistical bunch of lazy, ignorant, mostly fat-assed couch potatoes: sad, sad truth, but it is true. It’s a hard thing to do, to look in the mirror and conclude: yes, the stereotype of us in the rest of the world is pretty accurate. O shit.
Of course I’m not talking about those of us here in the pond and the other so-called “liberal” blogs: obviously, we are the ones who do not fit the stereotype and we are doing all we can to get this monster under control–however flawed or ineffectual our attempts may or may not be. At least we are doing something.
But unless and until this will to regain power spreads beyond the blogs and the “sphere”, we are screwed. We are. And I’m afraid the kind of optimism expressed in the notion that “we are not screwed” can do more harm than good because it can act to shield us from the brutal reality of the dire straits we are in by mitigating the urgency of the situation. The truth is that we are not only screwed, we are hopelessly screwed up. We are a sick people. Our “ways of life” are (and always have been) “ways of death,” and until we wrap our brains around that reality-based assessment of who “we” the people are, we will indeed remain eternally screwed.
The Camp Casey movement did a lot to mobilize and activate many “mainstream” middle Americans, and it’s a huge step in the right direction.
But what is it going to take to mobilize other groups en masse: I’m thinking first and foremost of left-wing intellectuals (professors, students, writers, editors, publishers) most of whom have fallen silent, but I’m also thinking of the working class, the various “minority” groups and many others who, despite the fact that they sense something profoundly wrong, still continue in the “don’t worry be happy” mode of mindless do-nothingism. The universe will take care of itself. Indeed, maybe she will: which means she’ll likely come along and wipe us from the face of the earth, because, by most accounts, we the people of the United States of America who currently consume a good 25% of her resources, we the people of the United States of America who continue to allow NASA to litter the universe with spatial debris, we who continue to allow our fellow citizens to pollute, plunder and un-plug the world’s resources for the sake of clinging desperately to the depraved indifference and denial of reality that has become our daily bread–WE are the problem. Either we change our ways, or I believe the universe will likely take care of itself and will find a way to eliminate us. It’s that simple.
Seriously, the fact that the FEMA disaster in the aftermath of Katrina did so little to elicit outrage and action is NOT a good sign; the fact that the Abramoff scandal is not prompting people to action is not a good sign. None of this bodes well for our chances of turning this ship around.
We must assume that most average Joes are simply ignorant of the situation, and that they have no interest in becoming informed or becoming active–seems even when you can make clear to them that their jobs, their well-being, their own personal “right” to the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness are clearly jeopardized–they still assume the “whatever” stance and just keep going about their business.
It’s like you really need a cattle prod (in the case of Cindy Sheehan, the death of her son functioned in that way to move her to take action). “Hope” and “optimism” do not have the “cattle prod” effect: desperation and despair have always been the great motivators of movements.
Every time I read something like this, I am reminded of a quote by William Greider in “One World, Ready or Not: The Manic Logic of Global Capitalism” in which he very succinctly outlines the fundamental problem with the “American people.” Here he is discussing the difference between post WWII Germany and the US. He writes:
German social consciousness was anchored in the country’s tragic knowledge of guilt and defeat, a humbling encounter with self doubt that Americans have so far evaded in their national history. …American history did provide ample basis for humility and social introspection: slavery and the enduring wounds of race, “winning” the West by armed conquest, Hiroshima and the nuclear potential for mass destruction, the bloody failure of the neocolonialist war in Vietnam….The social meaning of these experiences was usually deflected, however, and repackaged by the optimistic American culture as stories of triumph…Thus, Americans generally managed to evade any national sense of guilt or defeat. Critical reflection on the national character was discouraged, ridiculed as “un-American.
Too much of what goes on out here in the blogosphere, imo, includes this “repackaging” of American culture into stories of triumph and optimism.
It may seem as though I am just hell-bent on berating the American people, that I’m just hell-bent on focusing on the negative….well, in a way, I am: because this false optimism is, imo, part of what got us into the mess we are in.
(And those of you who know my story also know that this assessment is also based on ten years’ first-hand experience with precisely that “German social consciousness” to which Greider refers in his quote. No, I don’t hate America: I love it, I left it, and in that leaving I happened to have watched the way the Germans again learned to love their country [and themselves] in the aftermath of genocide).
Part of what has us paralyzed and prevents us from acting is the continued evasion of any sense of guilt or defeat. Somehow, too many people in this country still believe that we are and have always been a shining beacon of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness for all.
Well, the fact is: we haven’t been. Look at the facts. Look at the history. Look at the situation in NOLA: that situation was not created overnight–that rampant, rampant poverty has been there all along, and we, the people, have chosen to look the other way (even now, we the people continue to deny any responsibility for that situation and continue in our refusal to respond accordingly). Maybe Mayor Nagin is on to something when he says Katrina was a sign of “God’s” wrath: maybe this is the universe taking care of itself, desperately trying to get through to us in a last-ditch wake-up call–call it a “nudge” if you will, a hefty one.
Onward we sleep. Two in the bed and the other one said: roll over.
The transformative power of “hope” is necessarily less than that of “despair” because hope is purely speculative: its power is limited by the fact that it rests on some not-yet-known future. But despair is rooted in the known: this is the situation, this is what has happened, this is where we are.
This country is founded on genocide and slavery. We need to face that and fess up to it before we can ever hope to change the course of the future. Back to Greider: guilt and defeat–guilt and defeat not as negative burdens imposed by the outside world, but as a tragically honest admission of utter failure. A will to wipe away the stain.
Our despicable history has brought us to this fork in the road. BushCo is in fact the logical consequence of our historical development as a nation. It had to come to this. This is what happens when a bunch of white privileged men get together and agree that they will establish a charter under the auspices of someone else’s God–that is, of their God.
We can do better.
I sincerely believe we can, but not if we do not take a serious honest look at ourselves and concede that “we the people” have allowed ourselves and our government to be and become everything we have purported to deplore throughout our history as a nation. If the Germans can do it, we can do it too! Perhaps we can ask for their aid in some kind of moral Marshall Plan! 😉
What is needed, imo, is that a critical mass of citizens finally come to the realization that America has never lived up to the hopes, dreams and aspirations that it set for itself. What is needed is that “humbling encounter with self doubt that Americans have so far evaded in their national history.” From this position of self-doubt, of humility and defeat, we might be able to rise from the proverbial ashes and re-construct a national identity that is de facto more in line with our own distorted, fairy-tale view of ourselves, but I don’t think it’s going to happen as long as we continue resorting to these tired old cliches of greatness.
America, they say, is the land of “second-chances”–hell, for Michelle Kwan, it’s the land of second and third chances!
But I think we would be better served to admit defeat–admit it: we fucked up, we are fucked up and unless we go back to the beginning and un-fuck the things we have done to fuck not only ourselves, but the rest of the fucking world, we (and they) will remain: forever fucked.
No, we aren’t screwed. We are fucked. And fucked up. Royally. The challenge now is to figure out how to un-fuck ourselves because Suskind is right, we the people are the ones with the power. But we have fucked up. Badly. And a lot of people have been fucked to and beyond the nines as a result.
I don’t see how the un-fucking can begin until we accept the tragedy of that defeat.
In its fairy godmother role, the US Olympic Committee has given little rabbit foofoo Michelle Kwan a third chance to prove she can go for the gold before they finally retire her to the annals of Olympic goons-gone-down, but neither the universe nor the international community is in possession of that kind of magic wand. I’m not sure we haven’t already squandered the only second chance we may or may not have had. What I do know is that there will not be a third, and as long as we continue to deny the degree and the nature of our utter defeat and our utter failure at this moment in time, we will not be any more successful on this second run than we were on the first.
FWIW, another Saturday morning Starkravinglunaticradial Rant.
Flame, frame, frogmarch or take me to the firing squad…just had to get it off my chest. 😉
Speaking of fuck-ups: helps to put in the link, eh? Fuck.
And here’s the logo:
Well that would be a terrible waste of a perfectly good militant. I’d prefer to get next to you and join you in this so far fruitless attempt to get people to Wake The Fuck Up as Arthur Gilroy is so good at telling us.
I’ll continue to hold onto my hope that the masses will reach the needed critical mass of despair.
Yeah, fuck the firing squad, this time I won’t go any further than the woodshed without you! lol. 😉
Thanks for the 4 Brinnainne
Nice to (sort of) see you :o)
No bitch-slapping here.
Very interesting. I believe that the Japanese are under the influence of a similar national disease, an in ability to admit defeat or failure.
But it seems that a fair number of Americans are either aware of or at least have a sense of Bushco’s criminal acts. The problem I sense is that they don’t realize that they have the power. They believe that there is little, if anything, they can do to change the course of our society. And so, for many, life is lived as it comes to them.
I don’t think it’s as “innocent” as not realizing they have the power. They don’t have the will–they are afraid to take risks on anyone’s behalf but their own. When they are hit directly, the American people do take action.
And that is, I believe, the fundamental problem. Call it a lack of “solidarity”, call it “depraved indifference” (as I do), call it what you will, but it ultimately boils down to this: The average american does NOT give enough of a fuck about anyone but him/herself (and others just like them) to get up off their asses and do whatever they can.
It’s crude to say, I know, and I’m sorry, but I’ve been observing (up close and from afar) the phenomenon with the same abject sense of despair over it for 45 years.
We do not give enough of a fuck to act. Because if you give enough of a fuck about something, you will act regardless of whether there is any hope of success; you will go to any lengths to save a dying loved one, or to honor its memory after death.
The Schiavo incident is a case in point. The “miracle” of the Sago miners is a case in point. Cindy Sheehan is a case in point.
People in these cases were motivated by the overwhelming will to act on behalf of even a “lost cause” because they gave enough of a fuck about what was at stake.
What Katrina said to me: Yeah, GWB don’t like black people. And the american people doesn’t even give a fuck about that.
To me, as a person of Native American descent, I’ve pretty much resigned myself to acting in the hope of honoring the memory of a deceased love one: Turtle Island. But anyone who claims to “love” America (the country that sprang from the grave I now mourn), would be better served to realize that America is in her death throes and heroic, heroic measures are needed, now, to save her.
That is the kind of despair I think can work to wake people up, but how to get them to feel it?
We know. How often do we read statements of this kind of mourning here on the blogs? That despair has hit us, and it is for many that which provides the catalyst to action. It certainly was and is for me: I cannot act on “hope”–my country, my way of life is de facto all but dead. Remnants remain. And they always will. So to me it is about lending a sense of “dignified death” to my country.
But America and Turtle Island are not one in the same, and the only hope I see for America to dignify the death of Turtle Island is for America to understand how near to the brink of death she is. Then perhaps people who sincerely love her (and I believe there are more who do than who don’t) will be moved to take drastic, heroic measures.
Add Medicare D to the list of how people are being fucked over…
Suggestions on anything else that I can do re: Medicare D/a single payer system (in addition to blogging) would be appreciated. (But remember, I live on SSD/I.)
Aslo, as a traumatic brain injury survivor, I feel it necessary to point out that I completely agreed w/Michael Schiavo’s actions.
There is a difference between being semi-conscious for 3 days and waking up w/an excellent prognosis, as opposed to being in a persistent vegetative state for 15 years!
I wasn’t trying to take a stance one way or the other on Schiavo (tho I strongly stood on the Michael side and felt very sorry for Terry having to be put on display like that in that condition. Horror.), but I do believe that the primary actors: i.e., parents and husband, were both motivated by their sincere attachment to Terry and above all, by despair over the situation.
That was my only point on that score.
A list of the myriad ways the people are being fucked would likely be long enough in print form to be stretched from any major metropolitam area in the US to another!
A list of the myriad ways the people are being fucked would likely be long enough in print form to be stretched from any major metropolitam area in the US to another!
That list would go across the country–from the east to the west coasts!
Had a conversation with a very bright 24 yr old yesterday about the “state of this nation”. She is remarkably “awake and aware”. Espcially of the fact that she cannot believe anything or anyone connected with politics. “There’s no way to know whats true. No one has ever told us the real truth, and theres no way to find it.” It wasn’t powerlessness I sensed from her, it was resignation and acceptance that the status quo is too rotted out to be fixed. Her answer is to equip herself as best she can with the kind of tools that will be needed from here on. (she’s in third year law) I came away from this somewhat heartened, because I saw a calm deep resolve there, and a lot of confidence and determination. They may be more prepared to carry on than some of us older folks believe.
indeed. Today’s twenty-somethings do seem to be ‘waking up’, much more than the twenty-somethings of say 10 yrs ago. Tis a great sign of hope.
I notice that the one political activist org which I think is the only one going far enough, worldcantwait.org, has a lot of support from young people. That’s encouraging.
When you look back and think about the “defining moments” that shaped your own view of yourself as an American (for me: Kennedy, King and X assasinations, Nam, Nixon, etc.), and think about what will be the defining moments for kids growing up now (911, Katrina, GWB, etc.), you have to wonder how things will pan out for coming generations.
I mean, can you imagine being a kid trying to make sense of those scenes from Katrina?
I’m reminded of the George Carlin bit where he talks about how everyone is running around saying “Save the Earth, Save the Earth” and then he says “hey, folks, the Earth is gonna be just fine — after it shakes us off like a bad case of fleas….”
But I do have to disagree with you about the part of your rant immediately following the above quote about NASA and “spatial debris”. The amount of debris in space is miniscule compared to the vast expanse in which is it scattered, and we have learned quite a lot about our planet from the satellites and such that we have put into orbit. In the scheme of things, it’s a very small problem, if it’s a problem at all. In my opinion, the benefits far outweigh the costs. I typically hear that particular rant from the far right-winger fundies who hate NASA, who believe that NASA scientists should be told by the political government what to tell the people, who believe the moon-shots were staged, and who are also anti-intellectual professor-haters.
Otherwise, it’s a good rant. I am in complete agreement that the mass hypnosis cast upon our fellow citizens is incredibly dangerous and threatens the very existence of the human race. I wonder if they will ever wake up.
Hmm. Kinda like the way a synthetic, non-biodegradable toxic cigarette butt is nothing compared to the vast stretch of highway on which it is flicked out the window?
Sorry, hate to be flip, but sounds to me like the same kind of logic.
Ultimately, no, spatial debris is not on my list of priority problems–though I do question the whole “logic” and “motivation” behind it (feels very much like the same kind of “penetration principle” that allows us to rape the earth with our machines).
As far as “anti-intellectual professor-haters” go: I’ve seen my share of them on the left, and frankly think the ones on the left do more to stifle descent than those on the right.
But, enough of the nit-pick. The space program is not for me a “non-negotiable” issues. 😉
oops. what was that about editing comments:
descent should have read dissent, of course.
How’s that for a freudian slip, eh? lol.
Well, it’s not really like a cigarette butt in the wilderness. That’s a false analogy. Cigarettes have absolutely no useful function. Satellites do. Weather forecasting, communications, etc.
How about this analogy: We should never build boats because now there are too many shipwrecks fucking up the bottom of the ocean. Sounds just as much like rape to me as “spatial debris” and there are way more boats on the bottom of the ocean than dead satellites in the sky.
On the other hand, there is some attraction for me in the “move to the country, eat a lot of peaches” ideal. Everything would be much simpler. We could just look up at the sky with our eyeballs and guess what the weather will be and hope we’re not stuck behind the mule and plow when a tornado pops up. And who needs to talk to someone on the other side of the planet anyway? They don’t even speak English over there.
Also, I would be very interested in meeting some left-wing anti-intellectuals, as I cannot recall having met one personally. I’m sure they exist somewhere. However, I have no problem finding right-wing anti-intellectuals. All I have to do to find a bunch of those is go to any public place here in Mississippi.
As I said, Blueneck, space exploration one way or the other, doesn’t really concern me–nor does it “fascinate” me.
I knew the rebuttal would be “cigarettes serve no function”, but Phillip Morris would certainly beg to differ 😉 and so would the millions of happy smokers in the world (I am one of them, but I don’t smoke american-manufactured filter cigarettes–would be forced to quit indeed if the US ever succeeds in banning imported tobacco because I can’t stand the stuff).
There must have been some time in our history when we thought (however erroneously) that there was some benefit to abusing the tobacco plant to the point of addiction. Whether you agree with the “function” of whatever the drug (alcohol, tobacco, oil ;-)), they do all have a function or they would not exist.
The next time an event like Katrina comes our way, if the information provided by satellites serves to countervail against the malfeasance and incompetence of whatever regime happens to be in place at the time: I promise,I’ll never ever say another bad word about the space program.
Satellites will never serve to countervail human malfeasance, that’s an impossible condition to set. How convenient for you. Never mind that the refined hurricane warning capabilities that the satellites offer us allowed the successful evacuation of tens of thousands of extra citizens before the hurricane actually struck.
Cling to your bad feelings about the space program if you like, but thousands and thousands of “extra” people are alive today because of the “spatial debris”. Where do they fit in your world view?
“Spatial debris” doesn’t have to “fascinate” you if it saves your life one day. And I stand corrected, I have now met an anti-intellectual left-winger.
Regardless of this single issue, I still thank you for your otherwise excellent post.
Wow, thanks so much for that! It’s been a long time since anyone’s added something original to the litany of insults–anti-intellectual? That’s a keeper.
Have a 4 for originality.
Since when is a fact an insult? You have repeatedly refused to discuss any of my points with any seriousnessness at all. You redirect your comments away from the substantive argument in order to post more about your feelings about tobacco. Your attempt to justify your false analogy is weak at best.
You have a vague, undefined, negative opinion concerning the exploration of space and you snark about not being “fascinated” by the acquisition of knowledge. Anti-intellectual seems to fit the facts. So feel free to keep it. It fits perfectly.
Look, if I’d posted this looking for a serious discussion on NASA and the space program, I’d have likely ‘framed’ the piece in the context of the 20th anniversary of the Challenger disaster or something.
You are coming in to a piece I posted on apathy/indifference and a whole bunch more social/cultural issues, citing one reference to NASA just because it fit well with the real object of my critique (i.e., “the universe will take care of itself”) not because it is an issue that interests me (not even one I have a strong opinion about). From that reference you are making assumptions about my stance on science in general, on intellectualism in general and a whole bunch more.
If you are looking for a serious discussion of the merits or de-merits of NASA, how about posting a diary about it? (Which is not to say that I would be any more interested in participating in that discussion there).
NASA is not, for me, a priority issue. I don’t condemn you for your obvious interest in it, and I don’t think you’re a bad person for so obviously considering it near and dear, but it’s not a subject I personally have any interest in discussing.
Considering the fact that I’ve been known to call the degree of PhD the “preparation H” degree–best guarantee for shrinking your intellectual hemorrhoids, I guess I would have to accept the charge of being an “anti-intellectual.”
Just to clarify your assumption that I hold NASA near and dear, I do not. I hold no institution near and dear. I do however hold the pursuit of knowledge about our planet and its place in the universe in high esteem, as I hold the pursuit of knowledge in all areas near and dear. As such, I had and have no intention at this time of exploring the relative merits and demerits of any particular institutional attempts (or lack thereof) along those lines.
I value the acquisition of knowledge highly, but not at “any cost”. For example, medical knowledge gained by vivisection of any living creature is deplorable to me. Any attempt to gain knowledge should be subjected to scrutiny, and I defend your right or anyone else’s to scrutinize the methods of collection of scientific data. Where we seem to disagree is on the relative merits of space exploration in general. I offered examples of useful and life-saving ramifications of necessarily flawed attempts to procure knowledge, which you refused to consider. I offered you another analogy to consider, which you refused to comment on.
As I mentioned above, I am in agreement with you on the broad thrust of your diary, I simply objected to one small point, because I do not think that it supports your broader argument. In fact, I think it is counter to your main argument. You chose to include it, not me, so you shouldn’t be surprised when someone scrutinizes your argument. I don’t think that the purpose of studying the universe in which we live is in any way based on some notion that we are now trying to “take care” of the universe. Scientifically studying the place where we live is ultimately directed toward improving our ability to better our own lives. For example, basic research in high energy physics pursued with the aid of the Hubble Telescope may lead to helping unlock the key to cheap, safe, and reliable energy sources for us.
As for advanced degrees, I don’t have one, nor do I respect everyone who has gotten one just because of the intials behind their name. However, many individuals who do hold such a degree have used the opportunity to contribute to the useful and life-saving body of knowledge. They don’t deserve to be included in broad-brush smears against advanced degree holders.
Indeed, such broad-brush smears are tantamount to bigotry, and deserve to be called out whenever they are seen or heard. If I seem to have a lack of sense of humor about your joke concerning hemorrhoids, it is because I group such “jokes” in the same class as all other race, creed, or class-based jokes. They are insidious, and even though the person who repeats such a joke may not intend them to be hurtful, the hurtful impact of repeating them over and over cannot be denied.
I believe such comments have contributed to the dumbing down of America that you decry, so I consider this entire thread to be on topic, even though you may disagree.
I don’t think that the purpose of studying the universe in which we live is in any way based on some notion that we are now trying to “take care” of the universe.
I certainly don’t either. Nor was that the argument. My primary beef with even thinking about space exploration is that, if the same caliber of people are going to go about it with the same mindset they have applied to scientific research and “resource management” here on earth, I’d rather not entrust that to them–I’d rather not take the risk, not at any price.
Personally, I don’t value human life over the lives of any other species, and most of the advantages gleaned from invasive science do clearly privilege the human species over others. Often, in fact, at the expense of others.
I also don’t think that what I’m calling “invasive science” (in an earlier comment I think I referred to it as science by the penetration principle) is the only legitimate means of seeking “knowledge” of the universe (or anything else).
Vine Deloria, Jr. (PhD), has some interesting insights on this subject in his book “Red Earth: White Lies–Native Americans and the Myth of Scientific Fact”
As far as the PhD jokes are concerned: at this point I guess it’s about like arguing whether Blacks are “allowed” to use the N-word in ways that others are not, whether Jews are allowed to make Jewish jokes, etc. — my take on that has always been that it’s up to the group that is the brunt of the joke to decide;
I do hold an advanced degree (PhD, Germanic Studies) and reserve the right to make jokes about my own profession.
The rest of this comment should sufficiently explain why I decided to get a degree in the “humanities,” not in the hard sciences.
What I hear you saying is: engage my objection to your argument or else.
What? You’re not going to engage my objection to your argument, well you anti-intellectual you, they should strip you of your PhD!
Sorry, no, I’m not a big fan of hard science, of the penetration-principle as the only way of advancing knowledge…no, I’m not. Doesn’t make me an anti-intellectual.
But again. I’m kinda liking that charge. Anti-intellectual? I can live with that.
It seems to me that you are confusing the science itself, which is what most scientists do, with the management of scientific advances, which society as a whole does. Specifically, within society, the political and corporate structures should be managing science more effectively. I agree with you that some applications of scientific knowledge are, by and large, being poorly managed at the present time. I am advocating that the bulk of blame for mismanagement be laid at the feet of the power structure, not at the feet of the Ph.D. scientists. And who is responsible for the existence of the power structure? We are. In America, the dumbing down of the citizenry has allowed the powers that be to get away with murder, literally, using advanced scientific methods as well as old tried and true methods. Science itself is not a panacea. Whether or not we use the advancements for good or evil is up to us – society as a whole.
Our ability to think and explore is as natural a part of the universe as is the presence of algae in the oceans, and so is the privilege we achieve as a result of our abilities. Where we are going wrong is when we use the privilege to destroy that which has given birth to us and when we engage in the wholesale slaughter of other species for our own advantage. This argument, however, can lead in the extreme to such arguments as “the wholesale elimination of smallpox is bad”, with which I disagree. As in everything in life, the answer lies not in some absolute rule, but in a careful, thoughtful, observant balancing act.
Human life should exist in balance with other life here on our planet. I don’t believe that we can continue to exist without this balance. Indeed, we will ultimately be balanced out of existence by the rest of the planet if we continue to egregiously mismanage and expand our own niche.
As for your equation of certain scientific methods with the concept of “penetration” I can understand why such an equation would make you uneasy. That is why I mentioned the analogy of boats on the ocean. Clearly, to me, the principle is the same. We “penetrated” the ocean with our boats in the name of exploration and have left samples of failed penetration all over the bottom of the oceans around the world. Thus, by application of this principle you espouse, humans should stay home and not travel or explore anything. To use this “penetration principle” as a frame for your argument against space science seems a bit hysterical to me. Which is why I argued that when you ignored my analogy, it was one piece of evidence supporting my position that you are, indeed, anti-intellectual. Since you now have taken “anti-intellectual” as a badge of honor instead of an insult, I guess the analogy and your non-response helped support my argument.
As for Ph.D. jokes and the like, I must say that I disagree with you. The nearest set of experiences that I have that can possibly inform and illuminate my position is that I am often in the company of African-Americans and I do hear some of them using the “n” word sometimes. Usually, though certainly not absolutely always, it is used as a term of self-identification and association. Recently I saw Chris Rock on TV arguing that the ownership of the word for use by blacks exclusively, not whites, is empowering. I disagree with him, and prefer Harry Belafonte’s argument that the word should be discontinued from popular usage. Words indeed have power, and the continued use of a derogatory term, even out of “affection” or “empowerment” or in a “joke” still serves to divide us, one from another, whether it is done by an “owner” of the word or not.
Lawyer “jokes” about greedy and dumb lawyers lay a brick in the foundation for egregious tort “reform” limiting the damages that citizens can receive even in the face of overwhelming damage and destruction to that individual. Anti-Ph.D. remarks, in my opinion, serve to lay the foundation for the discounting of the value of education. Discounting the value of education has already lead to recent huge reductions in the availability of education to the poor and working class citizens in America, and I cannot stand by when I see someone, anyone, Ph.D. or not, make “jokes” about the potential value of education.
foundation for a different perspective on tort reform, that would involve not limiting damages, but attorneys’ fees 🙂
Yes, ductape, I do agree that lawyer fees should be limited. But it doesn’t seem to me that lawyer jokes have brought us to that solution have they? Latent negativities are seized by the powerful to get what THEY want, not what is just and fair.
they are permitted to do so. Frederick Douglass said that much better than I can, not sure of his position on lawyer jokes though. 😉
I don’t disagree with your assertion that words have power. I have frequently remarked on the readiness with which people who are opposed, for example, to US crimes against humanity adopt and absorb the vocabulary of those who commit and support the atrocities.
However there is a limit to the power of words, too. Calling an invasion a progressive intervention instead of an invasion does not cause the victims to be less dead, or lessen the consequences to the invader.
I suggest that your example of the limit of the power of words is instead a further example of their power. If the proper negatives were regularly used to describe the atrocities of the current “intervention” rather than the florid re-framing words, would society at large be as flaccid in response to the atrocities? Would Americans have rubber-stamped the crime of agression that has lead to death and destruction in Iraq if it were called that instead of a “just war”.
Calling someone a “n” does not make their skin lighter or darker, but it does infuse the mind of the speaker and listener with a vast pool of negative associations. It is true that words can only go so far, but do you doubt that needlessly heaping negative word associations on a class of people leads down the road to ruin? In my opinion, there is a thin line, if any at all, between making Ph.D. jokes and filling the mind of the listener with negative associations about the value of education. There are plenty of jokes available based on the foibles of individuals, without bringing classes of people into it.
Of course, my position is easily ridiculed as being too “p.c.”, but since those are my initials, I guess I’ll own’em.
values are more powerful. If instead of talking about US apprehending 30 insurgents and taking them off to be interrogated, Wolf intoned that US had kidnapped 30 Iraqis and taken them off to be tortured, and instead of saying they were suspected of ties to Al Qaeda, said they were suspected of opposing the slaughter of their families, mainstream Americans would stand up and cheer just as loudly.
Remember that Abu Ghraib whistleblower Joseph Darby and his family have had to go into hiding, so many death threats have they received, while Lynndie England has fan sites.
Just because someone does not call you an “n word” to your face, or even refer to you that way when you leave, does not mean that they would not be much more comfortable if you do not buy the house next door or marry their daughter, it does not even mean that it would occur to them to invite your daughter to their daughter’s birthday party, or that they will not be sure to boast about how liberal they are if they do.
Without the foundation of values, beliefs, and cultural mores, words are empty decorations.
Indeed. Without values, words are meaningless. But words are a primary means by which we have constructed our values, and language does deserve respect. Rearranging words does not automagically rearrange values, but without rearranging or reassigning the words first, the values will never change.
When the values, the attitudes change, the words don’t matter so much.
If you see me just as a man, and form your opinion of me on the basis of my character, you will have no urge to call me an “n word,” and even if you did, it would be, as you say, meaningless 😉
we’re both right. Attack a problem from all angles, says I.
What astonishes me is since this is stark’s diary, and one of her pet arguments (she is on your side) that she has not leapt in. 😉
I heard downthread that stark’s not feeling so good, so I guess I’m feeling all guilty about my lengthy insistences on clarification.
I do have a feeling that in the future, stark and I will get along just fine. I seem to recall another lengthy exchange in my recent history. 😉 Thanks for dropping in on my lawyer jokes comment.
My final words on language and its uses are borrowed from someone who is purported to have lived and said it a long time ago: “It is not what goes into a man’s mouth that makes him unclean, but what comes out of his mouth.”
no need to feel bad blueneck.
Alles mit Humor.
So sayeth the German language.
Har har. She said as her two-thousand dollar tooth fell out of her mouth onto the keyboard (just kidding).
“It is not what goes into a man’s mouth that makes him unclean, but what comes out of his mouth.”
Oh shit, blueneck, just noticed that comment.
Now officially RFLMGumsOFF.
Here’s the background:
My primary source of income is translation, and for the past year and a half, I have been single-mindedly concerned with translations of source documents from the Nazi era. (Currently at about 2K typescript pages. When the volume is done, it will be 800 printed pages.)
The people who put these documents together (two profs, both of them Jewish, both ‘heavy-hitters’ at big universities) said that when they were compiling the docs, they found themselves compulsively washing their hands. I said, well that’s interesting, I’m compulsively brushing my teeth: guess that’s the difference between simply compiling and actually having to put the words in your own mouth and formulate them.
So I’m sitting in the dentist’s office one fine morning at the start of the project. Am working on a piece about the Swastika and how it became the symbol of the Nazi movement. Lo and behold! Google research reveals that the original blueprint for the Nazi Swastika flag came into existence after Hitler announced a contest. A dentist named Dr. Kron (i.e. Dr. CROWN!) is the one who drafted the winning entry.
So I say to my dentist. “Dr. X, are you Jewish?
Yeah, he says, why do you ask?
Uh, I dunno, I just get the feeling that for the next year or so I’m definitely going to be in need of a Jewish dentist.
So maybe Dr. X just isn’t Jewish enough to be function as the karmic antidote to Hitler and all this filth I’m having to let run through my mouth.
The doc I’m seeing on Wed is named Ashkenaz. I’m hoping he’s got enough dibbuk in him to make the dental demon go away, but I doubt it. 😉
Glad you’re laughing… I only realized after I had quoted that old saying what I had done. I went “oops, I hope stark doesn’t take that the wrong way” LOL That somehow I meant tooth removal was a bad thing. Boy, talk about literal interpretations…… Anyway, I’m glad you caught the intended meaning and the unintentional pun!
As with so many of the things that ring true to me, I believe that quote is full of double and triple intentions. The “literal” (and standard) meaning is that what you eat doesn’t make you unclean, but what you say may make you unclean. I go further to interpret a broader meaning, that a person may listen to, watch on TV, read, or consume ANYTHING and it is not what you have taken in, but how you ACT based upon what you have allowed to enter into your body/mind that tells the tale of whether or not what you have ingested makes you ‘unclean’.
That you have taken in such toxic reading materials does not defile you. As I see it, you are performing a service to humanity to offer translations of the evil stuff for posterity. Always be careful of the abyss, though, because it is definitely looking back at you. And you must perform some cleansing rituals for your own good. I recommend brushing teeth, washing hands and face, going for a walk, or anything else that you need to do to purge the bad stuff.
And I wouldn’t tell your dentist that he has to counterbalance all that karma, it might scare the heck out of ‘im.
🙂
Usually when I tell people what I actually do they’re like “How can you do it? I’d never dirty my hands with that stuff.” I thought long and hard about that before I took on the project. Ultimately, I saw it exactly as you state: service to humanity. Or a continuation of the work of Victor Klemperer.
One of the “talisman-protector” things I have are OLD, pre-Nazi swastikas (the arms on the crosses go in the opposite direction). Recently saw a report about some young deranged school shooter who had Swastikas hanging around his room: thought to myself, geez, wonder what the goon-squad would make of my Swastika collection? Would they believe my story? Would they know enough to tell the difference between a Nazi swastika and a pre-Nazi swastika? No. (And there we’re on the subject of EDUCATION again aren’t we?) Gee, maybe I could submit my 1924 German-Hebrew Talmud in my defense (and would they even have a clue as to the significance of this book, and the way it survived the Holocaust? No.)
I do a lot of saging (and sage is also a good remedy for all sorts of ‘oral’ ailments). Definitely do not GET OUT enough (esp in winter), i.e. to walk the shit off.
Anyway. Talk about a schizophrenic existence. German-Jewish-Native-American-Female-African-Drummer. Translates Hitler. And Jelinek, among others by night. Teaches kids drumming by day. Occasionally, when the PTB concede to allowing her in front of the class, also teaches college level German/German lit.
No wonder she’s a basket case.
My other project, what I call “Bush-bashing at the Nobel Prize level”, sort of balances things out. And by that, I’m referring to these translations, which are mine (not sure that link takes you directly to the text, if not, look for the title “Bambiland” on that page).
That’s the ‘fun’ stuff. Which is not to say it’s not as dead-serious as the rest. But oft-maligned. Also by the left (and it was in part the criticism of this author I was referring to when I spoke in terms of “anti-intellectualism” on the left. See also here (Ruth Franklin in TNR).
So anyway. Fuckit. I’d rather lose my teeth than my mind.
I was not able to get to the full text of the TNR article you referred to, but I was able to get the lede. I read everything else you linked to and I am very thankful in particular for your link to the partial english translation of Klemperer’s work. It is quite fascinating, and a must-read for modern Americans, I think…
Thanks again…
Oops. should have made clear, the translation of Klemperer is not mine.
Aside from the Nazis, other authors I’ve done include
Ingeborg Bachmann
Elfriede Jelinek
Henryk Broder
Jenny Aloni
and misc others.
It’s wierd with that TNR link, sometimes it works sometimes it doesn’t. I guess my major beef with Franklin is that she first concedes that the translation she was using as a basis for judging the work was a merely “serviceable” one (it’s since been replaced by mine). Then she takes that “serviceable” (but obviously inadequate) translation as her basis for bashing the hell out of Jelinek’s writing skills. I call it “anti-intellectualism” because in order to get HALF of what is going on stylistically and content-wise in Jelinek, you need absolute fluency in German–and more! Even many highly erudite native German readers struggle with it.
Barring that, you need one hell of a well-researched and thought-out translation (I consulted several native speakers in completing mine, and did the necessary ‘leg work’ to get behind what was going on there).
It isn’t fair to judge a foreign-language author on the basis of a “serviceable” translation. There is definitely more than “meets the eye” in Jelinek; critics would be advised to do their homework before writing blather like this….here tis.
Indeed. And one reason I ignored your analogy is that I have a very amgibuous relationship to the “benefits” said exploration has brought about. Particularly suspect in my view are the samples ‘failed penetration’ left by the the Nina, the Pinta and the Santa Maria.
I don’t much relish the thought of man-made trash littering the bottom of the ocean floor any more than I relish the thought of man-made waste littering space and the notion that the “progress” and “advances” we have made as a result outweigh the consequences is not a given for me. I have a very ambiguous relationship to these notions of “progress” and “scientific advancement.”
On that subject, I agree in principle with you and Belafonte:had I my druthers, I’d eliminate the word altogether. I live and work primarily with African Americans (and have for most of my life), so I hear the word used as a “self-identifier” all the time. Personally don’t like it–but I stand by the notion that it’s simply not my call to make. African American use of the n-word is flatout none of my business–doesn’t stop me from occasionally saying to kids in my classroom, when they use it, “Jeez guys I wish you wouldn’t use that word,” but ultimately: it’s not my call to make.
I seem to remember reading something in Einstein’s more “philosophical” texts about learning to not take yourself too seriously and about how important it is to maintain a healthy sense of humor–90% of what I say, do and write is probably best seen in this context ;-).
At this point, I feel like I’ve contributed enough to the education of others (primarily poor and minority folks, first and foremost amongst them, my own little jackpine-savage-child-of-the-welfare-line self) that I am entitled to take a liberty or two in that regard.
that said, I particularly appreciate your attempts to defend education against those who would diminish its value. Believe me, I am acutely aware of the fact that if the anti-intellectual course this country is on continues, there will indeed come a day when all there’s left for us to do with our PhDs is to wipe our asses with them because they won’t be worth the paper they’re printed on.
Thank you once again for your diary and for your replies in this dialogue. We can agree on many, many things. We may disagree on a few from time to time. But how am I to learn from you if we can not engage and follow through to some conclusion? Dialogue is better than silence.
I share some of your skepticism about science, I really do. EVERYTHING, in my world view, should be viewed skeptically. I am not, however, an adherent of skepticism to the exclusion of the existence of some sort of reality. Scientific exploration is here to stay, whether we like it or not. The problem, in my opinion, is to manage it better not to deny it. I do believe as I stated above that it is a natural part of who we are. In my personal cosmology/philosophy, the universe strives to recognize itself through us.
I applaud your efforts in the field of education. My parents were both teachers, so I am particularly aware of the trend in America toward devaluing education. I am also guilty of having a hair-trigger when it comes to detecting what I believe to be “under-the-radar” uses of language. So much of modern political discourse is filled with these types of usages that I sometimes have to turn everything off and just go about my own business for a while.
Anyway, I hope we can agree to disagree where necessary and continue to work together on the vast amount of problems that we agree upon. I do value your insight and your contributions.
In the future, I will try to remember your %90 rule about humor. The limitations of the medium of exchange here do not lend themselves to easily detecting the nuances that accompany actual person-to-person communications.
Ditto on all counts, blueneck.
I would prefer that people be oversensitive about “under-the-radar” uses of language, actually, than that they be oblivious to them (as so many people are)–so it’s good to know there are (other) language hounds out there on the lookout for it and ready to pounce on it if need be. You’re right–political discourse is filled (I’d probably say “littered” ;-)) with it.
Does not sound as if we’re all that far apart in our views, and I’m glad we took the time to hash some of that out.
For my part, I was trying to avoid getting off into discussions of things I don’t exactly feel qualified to comment on (like hard science!) also because I’m suffering from what appear to be complications from a root canal, so I wasn’t ignoring your points, just trying to avoid getting into things that would require too much exertion on my part.
I didn’t want to put myself in a position where I’d have to go back and look up things (which is usually what I do when someone questions something I’ve said or written, in my attempt to re-trace my own thoughts and however I arrived at whatever statement is being challenged).
So, dammit, now ya done it ;-), I went back and re-traced the steps behind my use of the NASA example. I seem to recall having run across some references to the problem of spatial degree last year when I was working on a reference work, translating from German to English, and that’s likely what I had in the back of my mind with the ref to spatial debris.
Here’s what Wiki’s got to say on space debris
And this AP article seems to indicate that there may be cause for concern.
OOf! I’m so sorry to hear of your pain, and I wish you a speedy recovery.
I apologize for the tone of some of my remarks. If you read what I say with a filter of %90 snark, you may be better able to understand me. 🙂 My ultimate goal is always agreement, even if it comes to an agreement to disagree. It is interesting to me to see how my forays into the blogosphere turn out when someone stays with me. I learn something about myself and perhaps something of another.
Language and its uses, what an interesting and endless topic….
I agree that the space-clutter problem is as stated in the article you cited. Careful, observant, thoughtful: these are our watchwords from now on for anything we do to achieve any of our human purposes. But we mustn’t totally stop being some part of our selves in an attempt to nurture the other parts. We must be fully human, in every way that we can. Art, music, poetry, science, exploration of our environment, and all the uniquely human things we do must continue if we are to overcome the crisis that is upon us. We must also accept some failure and mismanagement, because these are human things, too….imho.
The collective consciousness needs a wake-up call, and it’s gonna get one some way or another. The sooner we collectively hear that call, the better. So, onward and upward, as they say.
Those things can be nasty. Take whatever pain medication you have, and first thing in the morning go and have them fix it and demand more and stronger, and a little bottle of lidocaine as well, to help until the pills kick in. But remember do not under any circumstances take any alcohol when you are taking pain pills. At the very least, it will make you throw up, and at the worst, you will end up in the hospital.
Get some rest, and get well!
Well, it’s morning and there’s still swelling, pain not so bad right now. I’d hoped I might wake up and “be all better”. Nope. Something definitely not in order here.
Am feeling rather fucked , and cannot go in today b/c I am starting a new kids’ program way the hell out in the western burbs.
Have a Wednesday appt with another endodontist that was already scheduled anyway (to deal with another root canal that appears to have failed).
And yes, it’s my own damn fault. It’s the tobacco. It is taking a toll not on my teeth so much as my GUMS. I have 60% bone loss. Had gum surgery about 4 yrs ago and since then nothing but ongoing dental nightmares. (And might I add that the stress and [BushCo induced] “anxiety” doesn’t help matters either.)
Why can’t western science do something useful and come up with a way to allow happy smokers to keep smoking without losing their teeth. 😉
Argh.
And oh fuck.
(And the expenses. I have no health insurance. The tooth in question is a very expensive one, i.e. recently put a crown on it, to the tune of 1K, the root canal was another 900. Now it looks as tho I will be losing the tooth, which will mean that all that money was down the drain and the cost to fix it is likely to be another 2K b/c if they have to extract it, as I suspect, they will have to put a bridge in).
And you know I could bitch about this forever. Endlessly.
Blame it on the smoking.Say it’s my own fault. I’ll take half the blame.
The rest of the blame goes to the medical industry. I avoid these “doctors” like the plague, now more than ever, because you never know. You just never know whether they’ve got their pocketbooks or your health in mind when they treat you. So you avoid them for as long as you can, until you can’t anymore. Then you go to them at the point at which whatever problem is there has progressed to the degree that treatment is expensive, painful and complicated.
I do not trust western science. Because I do not trust its practitioners (hat tip to Blueneck; yes, it’s the practitioners that are the problem, not the science itself).
Harking back to the comment you made in the “free speech/Muhammed” thread DF: it always boils down to this, doesn’t it? rich men who want to make more money. (Why does going to the dentist make me feel like a walking wallet: yo. “suction”–just stick the tube right in here, that’s a straight line to my citibank acct.)
At any rate, pain meds are sufficient at the moment. Will not deal with this today, might try to get in to the general dentist early tomorrow AM, but if not…as I said, have appt with another specialist on Wed AM anyway, probably will just “tough it out” till then.
End of “poor me”-oh-my-fucking-teeth-and-gums-and-bank-account woes-and-other-minor-personal-problems-rant.
Could be worse: my country could be overrun by a bunch of lunatic fucking reactionary mostly white men trying to destroy the country and, if need be, the rest of the world for the sake of lining their own pockets.
Oh wait. It is. Yeah, that, as I recall was indeed the root problem. 😉
Somewhere around 50% of the US population wants to be controlled and that’s why structured religion is so important to them. I don’t think it’s big government they want but actually getting under Bush. It seems as though the fewer the laws and more wide/restricting the law, the happier these folks are.
I think where we disagree, rumi, is in the assessment of how large this group is.
I know they exist. But I don’t believe this includes anywhere NEAR 50% of the population. Even if, as the so-called election “results” are supposed to attest, nearly 50% of registered voters want this kind of gov, that still only puts them at what, about 25% of the population because we have less than 1/2 the fucking population VOTING at all.
We won’t ever know what the lines of demarcation are on this until we have 100% participation, or at least a clear majority of citizens voting.
I don’t and will never trust the polls (neither w re election nor w re public opinion) because the numbers are too easily manipulated and the people who conduct and prepare these things have a vested interest in skewing them. Always. Even the questions they ask are skewed!
I don’t believe the numbers: and one major reason I don’t is that I know too many disenfranchised voters who have given up on the political process altogether. And all of those non-voters are non-voters because there is no party that is far enough to the LEFT for them to consider it representative.
My concern is mobilizing the vast untapped resources of people who do want to see change, but who refuse to act for whatever reason. The numbfucks who want to continue on this path do not concern me because I firmly, firmly believe they are in the vast MINORITY. They are a fringe group. And yet, they are running the country. And they trump up their numbers to make themselves appear to be much more formidible than they are.
I don’t believe 50% of the population wants this shit.
If I had to take a guess, I’d say maybe–maybe–25%.
Pep talks wear on me pretty quickly. They do have their place, and a good one does inspire one to action.
What action?
That is the whole point.
I tend to think in terms of strategy. The classic game of strategy is go. The idea in go is to surround territory, and to disrupt or prevent your opponent from doing the same.
Sometimes it happens that you have over-extended: A position that looked good is proving untenable. At that point you have to do two things: 1) quit playing into the losing position, since each stone you lose when the group dies counts against you twice 2) find a new position–a fall-back–that you can sustain.
Now you cannot do these two necessary things until you admit to yourself that you have over-extended. If you are truly pig-headed, you will ignore your predicament until you have actually lost your over-extended group. This is disaster. At that point item (1) is impossible, but you still have to do (2), though now under very unfavorable circumstances.
For the better part of a year, Oldman was trying to get both Dems and progressives (they are not the same) to notice they were putting their energy into strategies that were already dead.
They still are.
Your question: Are there any strategies to wake Americans up? That is, to do item (1) before we are in a formal tyranny with total electronic surveillance? The blogosphere itself is a partial answer, but only partial, since a vast number of people who need to wake up do not spend time in blogland and are still sleeping subjects of the propaganda machine.
One thing it occurs to me we should do is attack and discredit the media: Too many people–even here–think that the media can be reformed. This isn’t so: The owners of the media know what views they want to put across, they have techniques to do it, and they don’t want to be reformed. One of their techniques to fool us is to make a pretense that they will change their act.
Real channels of information are needed. The internet is providing some, but not enough. But the main obstacle is that the media is not yet discredited: Until it is, truth will always be two steps behind the lies.
I agree with you: I suspect part of the problem is the American need to flatter ourselves with how wonderful we are. This shuts out reality and prevents reassessment.
Nevertheless: A time of mass realization will come, when America’s economy finally unwinds and collapses. That may be late this year, although international political events could either push that time back or bring it forward. In any case, at the time of the crash, Americans will be stunned with a realization that they have been systematically lied to.
The question: Are we ready to introduce them to the truth at that time? How are we ready?
There are three problems here:
First, the media will be prepared with a new, different set of lies, complete with scape-goats. You can be sure they are working on this right now, and focus-group testing new soundbites.
Secondly, how are we preparing people to hear the truth, at the point that they are ready to hear it. That is work we should be doing now.
Thirdly, how will people have access to the truth so that they can hear it. The powers-that-be will certainly be working overtime to shut the truth out.
Fourth: What are some strategies that are not dead?
When we know the answers to these questions, we will be happy to be inspired to set about acting on them.
We can do better. Good point.
Personally I’ve always been in the fucking vs. screwing camp myself… just always seemed more fun somehow…
oops, sorry stark, that wasn’t your point was it? 😉
;o)
You are the queen.
It’s been awhile…what’s the difference again?
Sorry it’s been so long… I feel for you, really I do, but this is a family site and as such, I’ll just have to leave it to your imagination… 😉
Any ideas on how to bring this about? What do you think it would look like in the process of “becoming?” How would you recognize when it had been achieved?
I would appreciate your insights and ideas – thanks.
How to bring it about?
Frankly,I’m at a loss (that is, done everything I know that is humanly possible). Not a clue.
Can only sit here shaking my head like the village idiot, thinking to myself, if Katrina didn’t do it (and it didn’t), I do not know what will.
The other question you pose: as to recognizing it in the process of becoming….interesting question.
First they acquiesed to Hitler; then they followed Hitler–all the way to the bottom.
At the end, Germany industry was a wreckage. There was no food; people were starving. The war was over, and they had lost, decisively. News of the concentration camps was everywhere, and they could not be ignored, because there was no longer a propaganda ministry to do the ignoring.
It does not get a lot worse than that.
And that is what changed the German outlook.
It will take more to change America than a few warnings of disaster. It will take disaster itself. But, sadly, needlessly, that will come. The task is to be ready for it.
How to bring it about?
Don’t worry: It will bring itself about.
I know. That’s the scarey part, does it really have to get that bad?
Keep saying: I thought Katrina might have been a big enough disaster to do the trick.
But it didn’t.
Puts a very scarey twist on it.
We failed.
It is totally plain: The US cannot be saved.
This diary is scary if people are not outraged over illegal wiretaps, torture, global warming, deficits and illegal wars what is going to rouse the masses. Then it hits me….gas prices. We have become so self absorbed the downfall of bush and the neocons will be the price of gasoline. Due to their belligerent foreign policy, gasoline will be sky rocketing again soon at a pump near you. Once again showing how morally corrupt we have become only $4 a gallon gas will defuse the nationalists. So yes we are fucked and I see some financial suffering coming as a payback for our loss of moral courage. The right won’t stop until the soccer mom can’t afford to gas up.
And the economic collapse that ensues.
Only then will Americans wonder what has gone wrong.
Or until they introduce the draft, which they will never do because they know this.
They don’t need a draft, they’re just “outsourcing American citizenship”–that is, loosening immigration and naturalization regulations, offering anyone and everyone who is in search of that coveted prize called US passport a shot at it in exchange for enlistment.
Wannabe an American?
Great, kid, all you gotta do is survive 3 tours of duty–we’ll hand you that passport on a silver platter.
(Did a piece on that once, and would have links, but I think most of them have since expired).
Talking recently to a good, solidly left-wing friend of mine. Was lamenting the problem of “failure to act” (the friend is one of those whom I wish would do more)…he’s got kids. Said to him, Well waddya think? Yathink a draft might be enough to get people off their asses?
The look on his face said it all.
Gee, I said, maybe instead of writing letters to oppose the Alito nomination, or to prompt more serious investigation of the election fraud, I should be writing letters asking my reps to support a draft.
I have a colleague (also solidly left-wing, also solidly paralyzed into inaction) who is currently pregnant. Maybe I should suggest to her: Well, gee, whaddya think? Think we should go out there promoting a draft as a way to get the rest of the left mobilized? Would you get off your ass to stop a draft?
Dunno. Love my friends, indeed I do, even though their refusal to do ANYTHING remotely “risky” on the political scene drives me nuts (and these days we know, even writing a fucking email is “risky”) , but to be pregnant at this point in our history and to not at the same time be attempting to bring down this regime: it’s the epitome of cognitive dissonance to me. That, or complete and total denial, underestimation of the crisis, don’t know what….
My son is 11 years old. You are correct its the stuff of nightmares. That will wake up a lot of people.
Fucked Up Beyond All Redemption.
Or A Way Of Redemption?
What is needed, imo, is that a critical mass of citizens finally come to the realization that America has never lived up to the hopes, dreams and aspirations that it set for itself. What is needed is that “humbling encounter with self doubt that Americans have so far evaded in their national history.” From this position of self-doubt, of humility and defeat, we might be able to rise from the proverbial ashes and re-construct a national identity that is de facto more in line with our own distorted, fairy-tale view of ourselves, but I don’t think it’s going to happen as long as we continue resorting to these tired old cliches of greatness.
This process you describe of admission of guilt leading towards redemption is very interesting. But I have been hanging out with Catholics for too long. You are also describing a pathology, an illness for which you can see no hope of recovery.
You and I have many points of agreement, actually. That the country was founded on genocide robbery and slavery we agree on. Coffin ships. Broken treaties. Lies. Colonialism. Up through Hiroshima and Nagasaki and beyond.
But I was writing about a SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT, a remarkable piece of work, like the pyramids of Giza, or Buckminister Fuller’s geodesic dome, a creation so marvellous in its conception and performance it’s like the discovery of penicillin. A machine that works for anyone who applies themselves to learn how to operate it. ANYONE. This system of government was 2200 years in the developing. From Athens Greece to Philadelphia.
Where I have to disagree most strongly, however is when you say the American people are:
hopelessly complacent, hopelessly self-centered, egotistical bunch of lazy, ignorant, mostly fat-assed couch potatoes: sad, sad truth, but it is true.
I disagree with your diagnosis and your demographics. It’s not about them, it’s about us. It’s not about what somebody is not doing it’s about what you ARE doing.
The point of my piece is that you, starkravinglunaticradical, only have the power to speak for yourself. You represent yourself. You are the power of one. That’s it. What can one person do?
The Americans I met this week are:
The late Coretta Scott King was the person who got the state flag of Georgia changed so that it no longer bears the Confederate symbol. Her family would not let her death be exploited by the Bush govt and refused to have her body shipped to Washington to lie in state, choosing Georgia instead. She didn’t talk it. She did it.
Rights, like muscles, must be exercised or they will be lost. This takes guts, discipline, tenacity, and belief that although you may not reap the rewards of your labor, you do not labor in vain.
I guess I don’t quite understand how this is something one agrees or disagrees with: we’re not talking about “opinions” on this point–it’s just fact. To say that this country is founded on genocide and slavery is not an “opinion,” it is fact. It is our history.
On the rest, we’re probably just going to have to agree to disagree.
Hey, lunatic, what’s your take on this theory o’ mine:
The United States is slipping from a republic to an imperial model. There is too much power locked into the massive federal government for vested interests and insitutions not to fight over it. In this scenario, the will of the people becomes subordinate to the needs of well-financed, focussed business groups.
Add to this your very good points about the city-on-the-hill shit. I have the fight with my girlfriend all the time. Is it an ignorance problem, or are the american people really genocidal, self-absorbed mother-fuckers? I’m on the mother-fucker side of the argument, she is on the “uninformed,” side.
Currently, the Congress is losing control, ceding control, at a terrific rate. We can’t even tell the Pentagon what to do anymore, because they have black budgets and do things completely under the aegis of the president. Too much power, too little oversight.
Now mix in a corrupt, corporate-dominated media, and well, the picture doesn’t look any better.
I still have hope for the country for one reason, and one reason only: the Democrats have not fought back. And even if I get my party back, I feel like it’s only going to be a half-measure. How many Democrats are going to speak for cutting military spending? How many would be willing to give up the submarine bases and airplane factories? This is a military society, and any party that wants to funnell money away from gunpowder towards health care will be crucified right quick.
Best case scenario right now, we get the Dems back, but this country slowly slides into militaristic fascism until we get another Bush administration — but this time with a charismatic leader. I almost shit myself a few weeks ago when it occured to me, “What if George Bush wasn’t an uncharismatic fucktard? He’d be president for life!”
Thanks for the rant, though. Like you, I believe in what I believe in and will fight for it. Maybe some Pollyanna’s can’t handle the reality, but I eat grimness for breakfast.
I eat grimness for breakfast.
LOL. I like that. Me too. 😉
We are definitely between a rock and a hard spot. These spineless Dems seem to be our only chance, b I dunno, the Alito thing dashed my last hopes in that regard. If they can’t stand up and fight that, I don’t know what they’d be willing to stand up for. Really don’t. I couldn’t believe they helped suppress the election fraud, couldn’t believe they didn’t fight that battle to the death. Again and again, they just leave me shaking my head at their ineptitude and refusal to stand on principle.
I think our only chance is to somehow, some way mobilize the people–to the extent that they are willing to do what the people in Ukraine did: that is, inconvenience themselves, set up tent cities around the WH (if they can do it for the sake of being first in line at WalMart on Black Friday, why can’t they do it for the sake of democracy? Oh, that’s right, I forgot, they love your Nintendo more than they do their country!)
Imagine if EVERYONE, every single citizen who is pissed about this stuff showed up one fine morning at the WH. Imagine the 59 million, plus all the disenchanted/disenfranchised voters just showing up for one day, one massive protest. Imagine how many tents it would take!
Massive protests are nice, but they’re not where the power is. The power is in the parties. And the Democrats let us down with Alito. And imagine if, instead of protesting, all those people signed up with their DTC and primaried all the cloture voters out of office. We’d have a fighting party overnight.
100% of my efforts are going to be focussed on reforming the Democratic party. And when I say “reform” I mean “pistolwhip the shit out of it.” And this is a long-term project. If Goldwater Republicans could do it in 20 years, we can do it in 10.
And sign up at http://www.nedlamont.com if you want to help take out Joe Lieberman and support the Democratic wing of the Democratic party.
You may be right about massive protests not being where the power is–the lack of response to the pre-Iraq War II mobilization would seem to indicate that you are right. Mass protests as we know them are definitely not very effective. But if we’re talking numbers in the millions, I dunno. Might be a different story.
I have no loyalty to or vested interest in the Dems–voted Kerry out of desperation; aside from that, have always leaned more toward independent or third-party.
And when I’m talking about protests, I guess I’m thinking more of NON-voters than voters: what if all the non-voters came out and said, ” the reason we are not voting is that we think you are ALL full of shit, you are all doing a lousy job. None of you represents our interests. So here we are: millions upon millions of us. What you gonna do to convince us that we should vote for you? Uh, er, that we should vote at all.”
I think the 60’s were had a large amount of cultural protest, as well as political. That’s the reason non-voters could join in.
Non-voters are disinterested. I’d be very surprised if you could millions of non-voters to a protest, when you can’t get them to a voting booth.
I’m not asking anyone to have any allegiance to the established Democratic Party. It’s just a two-party system by nature, and the Dems are the easiest party to take over because they are nominally closer to our beliefs.
Interesting point about the cultural aspect of 60s protests. Hadn’t thought of it in those terms.
Disinterest. Yes. But is that innate disinterest or does the disinterest stem from the idea that none of it can be supported?
I’m not necessarily advocating one way of doing things or another. I do, however, think that the NON-VOTERS are one vast untapped resource we should be looking it.
If we could get through with the message: “Disinterest is not an option, people,” I think we’d be getting somewhere.
Disinterest. Indifference.
Pretty arrogant self-serving bullshit, ain’t it?
seriously, sometimes I just want to get up and scream at these folks: just where do you get off? What makes you think non-participation is an option?
You think I enjoy sitting here cranking out letters, emails, faxes on issues that also affect you? Who the fuck do you think you are to let a coupla hundred thousand of your fellow americans do the work while you sit around enjoying your “disinterested” life and letting “the universe take care of itself”? Isn’t it clear by now that the universe needs our help here?
What seemed to resonate well with young people in some of my classes was talking about political participation as a civic DUTY.
When I was growing up, we were taught that participation in politics was a good thing, not something that got you labeled as a rabblerouser, yaknow? (I’m thinking of many of the students who were “reprimanded” by their universities for staging and/or participating in political resistance at their schools. at the time, I wrote letters to their deans saying I didn’t think they should be reprimanded, they should be REWARDED for taking an interest in their country!)
When did complacency become socially acceptable?
It’s not socially acceptable in Germany, for example. At least it wasn’t last time I checked.
Here’s a story to illustrate: yr. 2002. Landed at the airport in Berlin. Tons of US military craft all over the airport. Wtf? I think to myself, have I missed something here? Like are we mobilizing for an invasion somewhere? What’s with the US military presence here?
As it turns out, I happened to be in Berlin when the boy in the bubble was visiting.
There were mass protests scheduled. I hadn’t planned on attending. But my friends looked at me like I was out of my fucking mind. In left wing circles, it was just ASSUMED that you attended the protests. Not attending was not a socially acceptable option. Not attending made you look like an asshole. It wasn’t an option for any self-respecting “liberal”. It was considered your solemn duty.
Flashback to Gulf War I. I was also in Germany at that time. The day the US invaded Iraq, everyone just automatically got up and began protesting. There was no need for organized rallies. It just happened.
See where I’m going with that? It’s a “peer pressure” kind of thing. Sure, you have the right not to participate. You have the right to do whatever the fuck you want. But, if you didn’t attend the protest against (x,y,z, fill in the blank), don’t admit it to your liberal friends because they will treat you like a pariah. Shame. Shame, shame, shame, shame on you!
OK, so here in the US, we’ve got this “i’m not my brother’s keeper” thing going on. Who am I to judge the actions of my fellow citizens? Heaven forbid! Who am I to pressure you (you liberal professor colleague, you lawyer colleague, you editor, you union worker, you, you, you, citizen xyz) to participate in the political process not as your RIGHT, but as your responsibility?
But I have also seen the way this sort of peer pressure works in a lot of ways in Germany: recycling, for example. Not recycling makes you a social pariah over there. Wasting gas on a two-block trip to the store makes you a social pariah.
Peer pressure is another form of power we the people have, one we have relinquished in our efforts to seem “tolerant”, to stay out of other people’s business or for whatever reason. Part of the problem is that “rugged individualism” we seem to cling to, at the expense of any sense of collective responsibility for the well-being of the whole, and I think if we could chip away at some of this, we might be getting somewhere.
Fuck yeah: you have the right to not participate, you have the right to let these assholes destroy everything you thought this country ever stood for, you have a right to stand by and watch the ship go down, down, down– but understand that in exercising that right, you are also relinquishing your responsibility as a citizen not only of this country, but of the world. So have a nice fucking day, slacker! ;=)
The reason protests don’t work very well right now is there is NO MEDIA COVERAGE. Or what miniscule amount there is, is countered by out and out lies of the size and meaning of the protest. For Mr and Mrs Average America, if it ain’t on the teevee it doesn’t exist. And if the teevee news commentator says it is so. . .well, it is so. Talking heads don’t count unless they feed into a pre-prescribed point of view.
I have come to a point of understanding that each person who feels they must do what they can to counter the direction (downward spiraling) this country has taken must do it how it feels best to them. I personally have serious doubts that protesting in any numbers will make very much difference because the mass population doesn’t hear about it. Or if they do, they hear only the slant the corporate media wants to give it.
So, I am not telling people not to protest if that is how they feel they can best help. I am saying do what it feels right for you to do. . .whatever that is. But it is looking more and more like real revolution may be the only way in the end.
And wouldin’t it be absolutely incredible to be able to have our REAL history taught in schools so we could see how terribly we have failed in so many areas and what enormous hypocrits we have always been.
Can you imagine. . . own up to our mistakes, learn from them, make restitution if and when we can, and find a better way for our future. . . Get rid of our amazing arrogance and hypocracy and deal fairly with all. What a concept.
Hey stranger.
This is a great strategy–and actually pretty close to my stance: whatever the hell you do, do something. But I know too many people who are doing NOTHING. Aside from voting, ZILCH participation in the political process. Nada.
And I don’t want to come out sounding like I’m suggesting protests are the only standard either (or are in any way effective even, for the very reasons you state–i.e. media). The examples on protests from Germany were more intended to demonstrate the power of peer pressure, not to suggest that attending a protest is the only way to express dissent (and there are many reasons that protests are more effective in Europe than they are here, size and public transporation are just a couple factors factors). I don’t attend a lot of protests myself anymore. Have felt that pressuring congress and contributing funds to those who are doing the same has been more effective use of my time.
I get real frustrated with friends/colleagues etc for whom shooting off one email or signing one petition each day would not seriously inconvenience them, or even put them at risk (professors with tenure? Hellooooooo…), but who nevertheless DON’T do that.
I mean, c’mon, with the resources the Netroots have set up…I’m thinking People’s Email Network as just one of many, many examples; shit, even just signing up for a Conyers newsletter would be a something we could expect EVERY SINGLE LIBERAL w/ net access to do–Conyers is a legitimate, high-ranking elected official, there is nothing subversive or risky about participating in his various campaigns, and if you sign up for the newsletter, he sends you the stuff directly. It’s a 2 minute job, tops.
I can totally understand how many of my colleagues would be afraid to sign on to any of the campaigns I think are best right now (worldcantwait) for example; but why it doesn’t matter enough for them to just agree to sign up for one or the other of these campaigns and to regularly do one thing each day.
(OT: So anyway, how the hell ya been girlfriend? Miss you. Great to see both you and Diane in here today. )
Good to see you too!
I was just about to send the search dogs out to find you, hadn’t seen you around in so long. Good to see you are at it in your usual gentle style.
Yep, we are singing from the same page on this.
Take care and keep up the good fight!
Hugs
Shirl
Resolve for Operation Iranian Freedom and it is clear that you cannot see how America’s love for that adorable little Michelle proves that there is no more racism in America, where all speak with one voice in support of the war on terror.
(The rate all button has gone on this thread, due to the Scoop conspiracy to discriminate against people with the discernment and class to own fine old museum quality computers, so I cannot give people 4s, so if you said something sensible, consider that you have an invisible one from me.)
You again. Dammit, now I just managed to clean up half of the coffee spills you have caused in the course of the last month, and here you come again….;-)
I’m not the only one who sees things this way.
You said it all. Now, what to do about it?
Dunno.
But as I was writing the comment about “peer pressure,” I got to thinking: maybe this is something we ought to think about.
Politicians don’t seem to be responding well to shaming tactics, so who knows whether the public would, but….for my part, I’ve been making it pretty clear to my friends, colleagues, acquaintances (and students!) that I personally don’t approve of apathy.
Sure it’s a risk. You risk pissing people off. You risk people not wanting to be around you cause it’s always such a “downer.” You risk losing friends. Because you make them “uncomfortable” when you talk about how indifference/disinterest is really a failure to accept responsibility.
Fuckit. My take: with “friends” like this, who needs enemies. 😉
Have some thoughts on what you and others have written.
There are cultural forces at play keeping people where they are. We have the cultural myth that anyone can be president, successful, make a better life, etc.
Do well in school, so that you can do well in life – right? But if you aren’t doing well in school, then there must be something wrong with YOU. Failure or difficulties in school are internalized – as is the anger.
What parent or teacher doesn’t want kids to do well? But then there is continual denigrating of the public schools and a cry for standards and accountability. So now we test children constantly. And if they don’t do well on the tests – why, cut funding.
Time is now spent on passing tests, acquiring factoids. And if a school does meet the standard they are given a rating – adequate. (Who wants to send their kids to schools considered adequate?
Critical thinking is not developed through mastering factoids. Oh, and this testing business is just that business.
This cultural myth is reinforced with our rags to riches stories or the overcoming great odds stories.
If one is struggling to make ends meet, and this includes those with large houses and multiple cars, it is kept quiet. There is personal shame and guilt. No rallies by struggling homeowners.
The other cultural force is religion. Katrina is considered one of those acts of God – with some going so far as to call this God’s punishment. And the poor shall always be with you. Your reward will be eternal life. And we have seen over and over how churches are used to maintain the status quo.
And the final force is our first among equals – corporations. Consider the expansion of entertainment and the media. All those stories that reinforce our cultural myths.
Today’s entertainment extravaganza is a prime example of who we are today. The super bowl will take place in Ford Stadium; the game will be played by those who show anyone can make it – just a bunch of regular folk; the commercials will show us why we should be unhappy unless we have…; the fans will share stories of sacrifice to be able to get to the game; folks will defend their watching as “Heck, everybody needs a break sometime”; if the game doesn’t draw you in, then there is ole Mick doing the halftime (wonder how well he’s gyrating these days?); possibly some fundraising will go on with donations to help the poor; an amazing amount of food and drink will be consumed and thrown away; millions around the world will watch (and we know they envy us); and maybe, it will even be a good game. Tonight we can go to bed having experienced proof that we live in the best country in the world – ever.
Excellent summation of so many issues. Sigh.
ah yes, and one more point that says a lot about who we are: we will take pleasure in sitting around watching a bunch of burly terminator-type men kicking the living shit out of each other in a 3-4 hr. skirmish whose aim is for one party or the other to “take home all the marbles.”
Hmmm. 😉
To paraphrase Michael Moore, it’s well past time to kill Horatio Alger.
Cultural myths are a pain in the ass to change. Asymmetrical cultural warfare is what we resort to. Plant seeds among the young. Maybe that means replacing the “rags to riches” myth with something different – not sure what that would be, but I’m partial to Dr. Seuss stories where someone does some small act that sets off a change for the better (think Mack from “Yertle the Turtle” whose belch topples a ruthless dictator; or the kid who simply inquires about the destroyed forest in “The Lorax” who’s entrusted with a seed from a tree from the once proud forest). No rags to riches, but the potential to do something helpful to humanity in some small way lives within each of us (now THAT would be a nice cultural myth).
We do have other cultural and religious stories…e.g., Do unto others… and Depression-era tales of cooperation…but the corporate media doesn’t repeat those ad nauseam.
I keep coming round to considering our elected officials as corporate representatives – sort of makes the Alito vote more understandable.
If our elected officials are of the corporations, by the corporations, and for the corporations, then how might we adapt to counter them?
Are all corporations the same? SallyCat has promoted buyblue.org And Susanhu has investigated carefully the businesses that advertise on this site. So, I would say there are differences between corporations.
Can smaller corporations be banded to fight larger corporations? How might we get that to happen? Can we bring it about through more than our role as consumers?
Anyway, just some thoughts on a Sunday afternoon. 🙂
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2006/02/333398.shtml
Halliburton detention camps for political subversives.
We are so fucking fucked!!!
Look at the bright side, Janet: it would be the largest vis-a-vis, life-in-the-flesh meeting of bloggers we’ve ever seen.
Syic (see ya in the camps!).
I had a hell of a nightmare this early morning. I was in Oak Harbor, WA. And they had most of the downtown as a open street prison. We were being “Held”. Women were walking around without any clothes on with bloodstains from their rectums. Men were helping the ederly prisoners “out” by smashing in their skulls. All felt this was more humane and many kept a watch out for patrols while this was being done.
Everyone was beaten, even the children. Some kids were even beating on a dog they had found. The trickle down of violence…
It wasn’t some terrorist camp… it was Americans, us, in a detention camp.
We’ve known that 350K people have been “displaced” due to Katrina/Rita – we know of the bullshit that happened but still … nothing.
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2006/02/333398.shtml
Now what?
Halliburton gets money for “DETENTION CAMPS” for political subversives
No reason to be awake now. We’re in a nightmare already.