For all of you that took part in the MyDD Presidential Straw Poll, Chris Bowers has his analysis up.
I have a couple of observations, too. It’s obvious that the netroots are significantly further left than the population at large, and the Democratic Party at large.
Russ Feingold, the only Senator with the testosterone to vote against the Patriot Act, consistently beats out much better known candidates in online polls. He beats Kerry and Edwards, our most recent standard bearers. And he crushes our most famous politician, Hillary.
This indicates a couple of things to me. First, our readership is almost immune from voting based on name recognition. We recognize all the names. Only Vilsack is a relative wildcard.
Since we are familiar with the candidates we do our voting based on the issues. And we are also much better informed on the issues.
Biden suffers mightily for his vote on the Bankruptcy Bill. Hillary gets beat up over the war, the flag burning silliness, and her leadership role in the DLC. Kerry and Edwards are probably past the war vote now that they have recanted, but they are seen as failures. Edwards gets less blame than Kerry, and he consistently outperforms him.
Warner and Richardson appeal to a wide swath of people that think Senators cannot get elected.
Warner and Bayh attract people that are convinced we can only win with red state centrists at the top of the ballot.
And into this mix, Wesley Clark gains his votes from all segments. He has never cast a vote in his life, he is not a Senator, he has never lost an election, he comes from a red state, and he has the military pedigree. It’s like you can have your cake and eat it too.
Except he never blinks. Have you Clark supporters ever asked yourselves about that?
The thing is … I know I could get my heart broken by Russ Feingold if I let myself. But I’m not going to let myself.
And the whole Clark thing baffles me too.
“winner” cause nobody really knows much about him other than he is ex military. The more you know about some candidates the less you want them in some cases.
Yes indeed. I mentioned this lack of blinking to a certain Armando fellow at one time — the blinking means nothing! Do you understand? It is less than nothing! — tread lightly, boo.
Seriously, did you read the case?
oops, wrong Armando ism
Heh. </armando impersonation>
No, seriously.
Heh
I have an advantage, I can walk down a flight of stairs at work and talk to a whole floor of Armandos. They all sound alike. And then, over beers after work, they wonder why people think they are too intense.
So how often do you find yourself saying “Look. I admire your passion, but…”
Peace
I find myself strangely unable to blink when I type the name Wesley Clark.
I wonder where he keeps his passwords. Power! I’m addicted.
There’s not a chance in hell that you’ll get your hands on them. He keeps unblinking watch over them.
I actually take a medication where one of the side effects it warns about is the immobilizing of the face muscles and theinability to moive the eyes or to blink.
I wonder if Wes is on this stuff.
Do I have to give you back the keys?
You had copies made didn’t you?
(shaking head – frowning)(whispering) shhhh. . .
I’m sure Susan is willing to risk the bump in her insurance.
oh. well — I guess that wouldn’t be fair to her. (sigh)
But I liked having all that power. (sulk)
You write:
“Wesley Clark… has never cast a vote in his life, he is not a Senator, he has never lost an election, he comes from a red state, and he has the military pedigree. It’s like you can have your cake and eat it too.”
“Except he never blinks. Have you Clark supporters ever asked yourselves about that?”
They haven’t.
You see…they don’t blink either.
And it is immaterial to them whether the cake is there and eaten at the same time or not, because you see…
They don’t eat cake, either.
So…why is it that so many of us see and hear what General Clark says, agree with much of it, but still are loathe to support him?
I personally think that you have nailed it, Booman.
It’s his eyes.
Maybe it’s just that his contacts don’t fit so well.
But I don’t think so.
I think he looks like an alien.
Or a nutter or some sort.
Or a shapeshifter. A raptor in the shape of a human.
Or worse yet…a speed freak.
OK, OK…maybe just a control freak.
Now…most likely he’s not.
But many people get a gut feeling when they look at him, and it ain’t a GOOD gut feeling. And I think that such a general reaction to the General could VERY well stop him from being (generally) electable.
Or…maybe he oughta just start wearing glasses like the rest of us. (I really do not trust most contact wearers. Too much vanity, not enough common sense.)
And…
Remember the Sufi poet Jalaluddin Rumi’s words:
Whenever a feeling of aversion comes into the heart of a good soul,
it is not without significance.
Consider that intuitive wisdom to be a Divine attribute,
not a vain suspicion:
The light of the heart has apprehended
intuitively from the Universal Tablet.
– Rumi
Sometimes you must simply listen to your heart.
Over and out…
AG
P.S. And PLEASE do not tell me that he is not wearing contacts. Then I would begin to get REALLY scared.
P.P.S. And remember…a picture sometimes IS worth a thousand words.
Hillary and Bill in their twenties.
Can you imagine General Clark in the same period of his life?
THIS loose?
I think not…
Given a choice, I know which way I’m going.
Bet on it.
In the same time period in which young Bill was deeply inhaling in London, Wes Clark was killing and trying to avoid being killed in Vietnam. I don’t know about the not-blinking but the hardness, the darkness in his eyes is one way combat veterans recognize each other. Come to think of it… Is Wes Clark the only prez contender that has seen combat?
He’s down there around my 7th choice but it is a point in his favor that he might be less likely to commit troups to a unnecessary war. Might be.
Possibly.
Here is a question we should all ponder deeply before running off to enlist behind every ex-serviceman who decides to run for office.
You say “Wes Clark was killing and trying to avoid being killed in Vietnam” while Bill Clinton was…not necessarily only deeply inhaling, but studying under a Rhodes scholarship at one of the most prestigious universities in the world. This trailer park half-bastard white trash Arkansas charmer saw that war more clearly than did John Kerry, Wesley Clark, John McCain, John Murtha and every OTHER so-called “war hero” left, right or center whose heroism had to do with going over…VOLUNTARILY, most of them, they were officers not draftees except for Murtha, I believe…to Southeast Asia and killing commie gook motherfuckers for…for what, exactly?
Can someone please tell me that? Forty plus years later, and I still don’t get it.
For whom?
For Christ?
For the safety of American mothers and apple spies everywhere?
For Kissinger? For HIS bosses, the Rockefeller interests and THEIR allies?
Please.
Give me a break, here.
Further…
I do not and and HAVE not seen that same hawkish glint in the eyes of ANY of the above so-called heroes, nor have I EVER seen it except in the eyes of a couple of Hell’s Angel types that I got to know better than I should have and one completely crazy ex-Vietnam Green Beret who I met at an abandoned New Hampshire quarry on which I and a few other misfits spent a year surviving any which way we could while we practiced our various art many years ago. THIS guy obsessively patrolled the perimeter of the property night and day…a speed freak, among other things…dressed in a loincloth and carrying a crossbow.
“Lookin’ fer BAD guys” he’d say. “Just lookin’ fer bad guys.”
Right.
I’m lookin’ fer a few GOOD guys, myself.
And although I have come at least some reluctant part of the way towards General Clark…who after all IS saying many good things…that intuition that Jalaluddin Rumi spoke of keeps on ringing off alarms in my heart.
“”Danger, Will Robinson!” Danger!!!”
We shall see…
AG
So um what was the art you practiced? And um, do you think he looked good in the loin cloth?????
I was disappointed that Gore wasn’t listed in their poll. For my money he would be our strongest candidate.
Know something? I was all set to vote for Gore in 2000, then he said something (and for the life of me, I cannot remember what it was) that rubbed me the wrong way. So I voted Green. And before anyone starts ripping on me for that, if memory serves, Gore carried MI!
But, IMO, the strongest candidate would be whoever comes out in favor of a single payer health care system!
I’m pretty sure this is THE issue. Everyone here in quiet Kansas is thinking about it.
as it is a non-“christian” thing to do!
I’m counting on someone we haven’t even thought of stepping up to say something POWERFUL and TRUE that will draw us all to him (I’m pretty sure it’ll be a guy).
It’ll be someone as unexpected as the Governor of Vermont.
And this time, with the dress rehersal behind us, we won’t lose.
Katiebird, I sure hope you are right on with that one! I am not holding my breath tho. I think dean was a once in a lifetime affair..hopefully maybe sometime in the future he can do it to it for us again. He is another one I will stand up for. He really made a lot of sense, and still does.
At first I thought Clark might be a possibility. Then I noticed that all he stands for is supporting veterans. Hello, there are many people who were/are unable to serve due to medical reasons. So I said the hell w/him!
Hey Kid, I understand y our aprehenisiveness, but check out the Generals background as an educator, and how he stands on health and taxes and all that comes with this if you want before you say all he does is support the vets..and besides that is a hell of a better than some here in the poll. Some body better start to respect the vets are you all are donw the freaken tubes without a handbasket to put your eggs into. I am a vet that doesnt need his help but I know many that do and many more to come that will as well.
I am not a vet–epilepsy since age 9. And, he has not addressed a single issue re: civilians and health care. Constantly vets! And, I also know other people with disabilities who desperately need health care that they are unable to get.
Also, I remember one time he was live-blogging somewhere (can’t remember the site) and I specifically asked about non-vets who needed health care. And he didn’t even answer that one. If he won’t anwer a legitimate ?–fuck him!
Hey Kid, sorry about your health problem..hope all is well for you in that regard.
I do htink your interpretation on him answering your question might be that he did nto take the time or what ever…I just do not know, but I do kno wI heard him talk about healthcare for us all during his campaign. He is not all bad! I happen to like Rus and Warner too, but we have to get it narrowed down within our own minds and hearts come a year and a half from now. Right now we must worry about the house and maybe a few in the senate.
I hope one will allow one to stand up for the one they believe in too. I grant you that for you, yourself. Hugs and hope you are doing well….
I specifically said that I was a traumatic brain injury survivor and wanted a specific answer to a ? re: people with disabilities and he did not bother to answer it. That tells me a hell of a lot about his character.]
And, no, healthwise, I am not doing well–may be relapsing (pneumonia) again. But, that doesn’t matter, I am just a person w/a disability who lives on SSD/I and other social programs.
Not a veteran w/decent health coverage and 1/2 way decent benefits! And you know what else? I am sick and tired of hearing veterans whine about how their beneifits are cut! It was not my decision to have a disability, but, some veterans made the decision to enlist–they can stop acting like they are better than me and stfu and live w/it!!! I have to!
(BTW, you really hit a nerve!)
I’m totally on your side on this Street Kid! I’m sick of this ‘special’ people view of heath coverage. That view always leaves someone out. And that sickens me.
Know something? I have heard so many times that if I was a vet, I’d be eligible for God-knows-what. (But since I am not, there is nothing that can be done.)
Everyone needs better health coverage and single payer is the way to go.
NOw look you two. I am neither defending nor offending anyone here. As you both know, I am firstly American. Secondly I am a woman. Thirdly, I am a mother/grand-mother, citizen, nurse, and veteran. I happen to stand for all of the above. not just one or the other…I would have hoped you all would have gathered this of me by now! And Yes, Kid, I do care about you. I am very sorry I struck a nerve. I really did not mean to..and I apologize to you for this. But I am not backing down on my own feelings of things for anyone. If I let anyone and everyone intimadate me on things, I would not be true to my own self. I just feel about somethings more so than others for I have more experience in somethings than I do others. When it comes to things I do not know about, I read or listen to others about it.
I feel I am suppose to take shit from others but not the other way around. Ethically and morally, I feel for you like no other person can…cause I am a health care provider, but that does not mean I can have an opinion all to myself and defend it.
I appreciate you and kitiebird both giveing all hell to me if I should deserve it, but lets be fair will you….I will not tread on anyone rights of free speach…and the other way round too.
I am trully sorry for your health problems an dwished there was something I could personally do about it, but I cant. When someone like me feels helpless about somethings such as this, I get cranky. I really feel bad for you. It could have been me instead of you. It really could have been…I also have problems in my family that I never discuss for the health issues too…like trisomey 18 and the like…that is something I take very personal. Me and my daughter have to deal with it and that is just the way it is. This has caused her and her husband not to have any more children. That fear is horrendous to have. That is not the only thing that ppl fear and not one thing is being done about that fear either….I do not complain, WE just have to deal with it. So we all can say we have issues about one thing or the other. I just want to take all your ills and pains and fears away for you, and I cant and that makes me sad and so helpless in feelings.
Sorry for the long post…I do apologize to you for the comment and it made you feel hurt. HUGS
I was extremely offended by all of your posts that repeatedly touted the greatness of that idiot clark. I say that I was not interested and you tell me to read about it. Then, when I explain my point of view, you show absolutely NO RESPECT FOR MY FREEDOM OF SPEECH, AS YOU CONTINUED TO FORCE THAT CRAP DOWN MY THROAT!
And then you have the nerve to cry about taking shit from others when all you have done is give me shit? In your other posts, you have been whining about how vet benefits were cut–too damn bad! I live on $600.00 a month and face a very uncertain future. I’d like to see you live w/a traumatic brain injury, the uncertainty of knowing whether or not you will get your rx’s that control your epilepsy, and everything else that I have been through.
You sound just like one of those crybaby vets that I have repeatedly had to deal with–expecting me to kiss their ass because they are a vet. In many instances, it has been the social programs that I somehow survive on that have been cut to satisfy their constant whining! Well, as I said earlier, in some instances it was their decision to go into the service, where as I was not able to decide whether or not I could have a disability!
And your daughter can’t have more kids. Tough! Maybe she should appreciate what she has, instead of being so selfish and wanting more! Ever think of that?
Also, maybe you should READ what I have written re: Medicare D and pay careful attention to the posts by DuctapeFatwa, and my answers to them!
And I am sick and tired of that, “I feel for you, but, there’s nothing I can do.” bullshit–heard it too many times from too many different people to believe a word of it. As far as I am concerned, that is just your way of attempting to ease a guilty conscience because you are too into your own world to give a damn about others who have less than I do!
You want to prove me wrong?
PUT UP OR SHUT UP!!!!!
Actually Kid, I am sorry. You can believe me or not…That is up to you..all I know is I am not going to arugue with you or anyone else for there are somethings I simply can not ever control If you ahve a beef with things you need to go directly to the government of which we have had now or before and complain to to them. I vote for a better government to give you more of what you need and want, but I loose… and so do you. NOw again I will say toy ou one more time how sorry I am for your but to go on with this and something I can not do anything about, is sensless. I am apologizing to you one more time. If you can not accept it, then I am trully sorry for us both. This is something we should be working hand and hand on. not against one another on. You do not know me, neither do I know you. All I know is my own heart. so that is as far as I am going here with you on this arguing thing. sorry…….
When it comes to things I do not know about, I read or listen to others about it
a link to all of my diaries re: Medicare D
And, there is also a link in the 2nd PS to the Brain Injury Association website.
And for a health care “professional”, you have demonstrated an unbelievable lack of knowledge re: health care, or I should say the lack of it, that people with disabilities are supposed to settle for.
Oh, how stupid of me to actually expect that a vet would actually be concerned about a non-vet issue!
Like I said, PROVE ME WRONG!
Read this and maybe you’ll learn something!
(Like you’re really going to read about a non-vet issue!)
And he didn’t even answer that one.
I tried to get both him and his son (who briefly posted on DK) to address the problems the military had with integrating women into it’s ranks. I wanted to discuss the well documented problems with harassment, rape and domestic violence and the poor record of command response to what is clearly an endemic and intractable problem. I also wanted to talk about the right wing response to women in the military which is, briefly, to make quite certain that women never ever rise to command positions and to discredit their contributions at every opportunity.
Neither Clark or his son would even admit there was a problem nor would they acknowledge the issues from the right.
I agree about his massive blind spots in regard to civilians (which is, after all, most of us) and domestic policy. Indeed, Clarks supporters used to argue that domestic policy simply wasn’t important and Clark always sounded like he wanted to solve the problem by drafting us all. No way I’m going to be drafted by a guy who went on to be a Fox news commentator. I was paying particular attention to those issues because I figured it was something he understood. He was as good as Alito at dodging questions. creepy man, creepy supporters.
You know, it’s a funny thing, I was watching Jack Murtha on Russert’s show last week and Murtha lives up to the hype that Clark’s supporters claimed for him. I actually like Jack Murtha (and Richard Clark, for that matter) and you can bet that neither of those two will ever be getting a paycheck from Rupert Murdoch.
Clark strikes me as about as pure an example of centrist operatives with grotesque notions of what they imagine ‘liberals’ to be trying to ‘frame’ as exists. It was a truely disgusting and shallow demonstration of their bedrock belief in style over substance.
…tried to get…him …to address the problems the military had with integrating women into it’s ranks…well documented problems with harassment, rape and domestic violence and the poor record of command response to…an endemic and intractable problem…women never ever rise to command positions and to discredit their contributions…Neither Clark or his son would even admit there was a problem
This I don’t recall seeing before, but I am glad that you brought it to my attention. Looks like a pattern as you posted that
He was as good as Alito at dodging questions.
Never watched Faux news–stick to the net for news, so I’ll take your word for it.
massive blind spots in regard to civilians…and domestic policy.
I am so glad that you said this–I thought that I was beating my head against the wall. Correct me if I am wrong, but, I am under the impression that military salaries are paid by taxes. Seems to me that the military needs civilians paying taxes–which it appears he has also ignored as
Clark always sounded like he wanted to solve the problem by drafting us all.
And, as I had previously asked, but no one answered, what about people who for medical reasons are unable to serve? He has spoke of NO social programs for them. The fact of the matter is that there are many people in this country who fit that description. And, if clark’s playing “divide and conquer” service-people v. civilians in order to gain support, he is, IMO, someone to be very wary of.
Clark strikes me as about as pure an example of centrist operatives with grotesque notions of what they imagine ‘liberals’ to be trying to ‘frame’ as exists.
Ditto!!!!
blinking means nothing except, when one tells the truth, one does not need to blink. Blinking is a natural reflex. has nothing to do what so ever with anything. I have seen Gen. Clark in person three times and I can tell you, he is a good man. He is really concerned for how we here in America are doing. He may not get the nomination, however do not knock him down for when he gets up, youhad better be gone then or reap what you ahve sown. His punches are strong, political speaking, of course, and he I think is not one who wants the dlc to run the show. I could be wrong on the latter and that is one thing we need to ask of him. But he has matured in his political stature now and has got his feet wet. AND besides, I love his wife. She is a very storng woman and out going and seems one who can take the heat along with the hubby.
My reasons why Wes leaves me cold.
….so you are saying I shouldnt even think of running ofr office on any level cause I am past military and like the military, etc. I have never ran for office in my life but I think I could do a hell of a lot better than some who have grown up in that enviroment.
No I’m not saying that at all. I think it depends on the person and I don’t know anything about you. I am sick of the Dems cynically using military service as a yardstick as to whether or not someone is a respectable candidate.
I, personally, have some concerns about the way the military operates and so, for me, military service in and of itself is not a plus where I am concerned. I feel the same way about other professions as well, for intstance, even though I know that many Catholic priests are wonderful, selfless people, I would not necessarily vote for them either.
I am sorry that I offended you and I know that at this point in time it is not “permissible” to say anything negative about the military, but that is how I feel.
Dont mean nothing….I just think when one speaks one needs to think of how one sounds…and that includes me too. I am not offended, in the least…I am not taking up for the Gen. he is a big boy and if he wants to make someone think of his ways, he alone needs to put them out there to be heard. I have heard him and I just happen to like what I heard. However, this could change too. I seriously think it wont, but anyhow, I wanted to get back to ya on that one. As it stands now; however, unless it might be russ and maybe warner, I do not think anyone is thinking that strongly of the veteran. and many will return to civilian life very soon and they need all the help we can give them in more way than just a welcome home. They and their family deserve much and they are not being given anything by this administration. Only cutting and downsizing of their benefits. They are like us all…working to make ends meet and that aint all, they are taking a big hit for following orders too that are so outragous, it aint funny. Many are trying to get way from this and arent having good luck in finding the ways. The leadership is rotten to the corps..,.
Anyhow, thanks for the reply…I do not take much personal until it effects me personally…that is. hugs
Thanks. Hugs back to you. And you are very right that our troops are being treated horribly.
Salon.com had an article about his non-blinking.
http://www.salon.com/ent/feature/2004/02/02/blink/index_np.html
Thank you luckylu. That is exactly my point!
That articles have been written about it?
So Clark doesn’t blink.
Neither did John Wayne.
John Wayne bashing. My husband always has to say that when the opportunity rises among new soldiers he hasn’t worked with before. Saying that out loud usually brings several soldiers to their feet….we still don’t know why. We share a kind of dry twisted sense of humor.
Really? I thought that was Rock Hudson.
The “Duke” also?
Has anyone told Randy “Duke” Cunningham of Top Gun – Congressman – Felon fame?
He grew up in Little Rock just like Bill Clinton….so knock off the Red State spin! He was a Rhodes Scholar too so he has a bit more to his military pedigree than just plain military. You’re Fox Newsing Clark just because “you” can’t reasons to support him. He was the freakin Commander of Nato for crying out loud! He knows a little bit about the world and diplomacy? He knows a little bit about telling insane commanders “NO” too or don’t you remember “the military swift boat smearing” about that either? Because he was such a stringent soldier though…..he has never cast a vote, and I know a lot of old soldiers who do that to this day and I bet that Brenda does too. I think it is a little overboard on being a soldier myself but soldiers at work are not supposed to be political and some soldiers take that more seriously than anything. I think he has placed a whole lot of damn trust in all of us to just figure we would go ahead and vote the sane guy in and he could just trust us all with his life like that. He has more faith in this democracy called America than I have! For everybody who is upset about this separation of church and state too, you all need to spend an evening with a proper military commander who is in command of Americans first and knows the only sane commander leaves religion to dog tags and chaplains! There wouldn’t be anymore of this mix up between church and state if Wes was ever president and he could explain all about it a lot better than I can!
Tracy, have I told you lately how much I like you and your thoguths on things…..;o) hugs and hope the family is doing well.
where many liberals and progressives have a hard time understanding soldiers. I never in a thousand years thought I would marry some jarhead. When I met him it just startled me that he was in the military (hmmm, must be getting out soon and getting college money and stuff like that you know). Nope, he was career. Very confusing, didn’t know what to do and I’ve always been a feminist so I thought I would just sleep with him and wine and dine him until I got him out of my system…….but it never happened. Instead I have had to resort to something much more difficult which is understanding the type of person who is born “the warrior” and protects his people. I have had to become more familiar with anthropology instead of my own ideology. The best fight we ever had was why we even need a military and he won damn it. I want a nice world, I want to make clover chains in the sun with my children……but not everybody in this world wants that for me and some people want really hurtful things to happen to me for really bizarre reasons.
Yeah, but as a retired Army person, it is regrettable that he should be a Marine. But I guess someone has to.
I wanted to be tube artillery, but my nearsightedness set me at profile “3” for vision. No combat branch even in 1966, and I probably couldn’t have gotten into the Marines. Not that I ever tried.
There is a strange aura to someone in the military. A way of dealing with people and events that, once you become comfortable with it, never leaves you. I used to travel a bit, and I’d check into a hotel and then go down the bar for a drink and some company. If I ever met someone that I just automatically felt comfortable talking to and we seemed to be able to just keep talking for beyond about 20 minutes, I began a regular practice of just out of the blue asking what service they had been in and when.
I only missed it once, in a bar near NASA in Houston. The guy had never been in the service. He had, however, been a petroleum engineer in Saudi Arabia for about ten years. Same lifestyle, I guess. But then, West Point is an Engineering School for a reason. There is in my opinion a close similarity in life style and personalities between field engineering and the military. I’ve wondered if anthropology or sociology has ever picked that up.
It’s a bit funny, really. There are some people in the military I couldn’t stand to be around, and they felt the same way about me. But if I ever needed help bad, I wouldn’t hesitate to turn to them. Wish civilian life were more like that.
a Marine because he is Army. See, I grew up in a very liberal family in Colorado Springs and sadly my family saw within their community what happens when young angry people with criminal problems are sent to boot camp and then out to play in the real world again. Anybody in a military uniform was a “jarhead” in my family. I’m laughing to myself because I remember that we were all VERBOTEN to date anybody in the military too because if they weren’t criminals they enjoyed hanging out and throwing grenades with criminals and shooting guns with criminals. My grandfather passed away I think still looking for my husband’s secret criminal record (still laughing to myself). Anyhow, that was why I called my husband a “jarhead”, because I grew up with every person in military uniform being called a “jarhead”. I think I wasted my last breath my grandfather ever heard from me still attempting to convince him that the military wasn’t full of rapists and robbers. Since Iraq though our fresh recruits are more like the “olden” days…..I bet my grandfather is up there shaking his finger at me and saying that he told me so.
Gee. I’VE never been called a jarhead – as far as I know. I’m Army. “Grunt.” “Leg.” “REMF.” “Aggie.” and more, but never a “Jarhead.”
Glad your husband is one of the enlightened ones, not a Marine.
Although, if you really want to know what being infantry is all about, you need to study the history of the battle of the Chosin Resevoir. Most of the story is told from the point of view of the 2nd Marine Division west of the resevoir, and it should be. It has been described as the most intense infantry combat ever conducted by the American military, and the Marines actually survived as an organized military force.
Less well known is the story of the ad hoc Army regimental combat team of some 3000 Army soldiers from the 7th Infantry Division who were sent up EAST of the Chosin Resevoir at the same time, and who fought the same battle to survive when the Chinese counterattacked. The book I found was “East of Chosin” by Roy E. Appleman. The Army was less successful than the Marines, but the Marines were a larger force and much more cohesive.
But so what? Why should any of this matter to civilians? I say go watch the movie “we were soldiers” and watch how the wives were reacting. This is very close to the ideal. Families expanded to support other families. Civilians do not do this. They sit around and regret the problems others are having. In the military, families anticipate the needs of other families and get out and support them. Today the families of National Guardmen or Reservists are outside this network and it really shows.
I’m not sure what to do about this current problem. I tend to be a technocratic geek, and I always used to relegate these family problems to my (now ex-) wife. She was unable to handle it, and such things did not get done.
Sort of funny. I have two dogs – a terrier and a part-sheltie. The terrier gets totally focused on what he his doing and does not respond to what I want (which is a social requirement from his dog pack member – me) while the sheltie gets what I ask almost instantly and quickly responds. I identify closely with the terrier, but really appreciate the sheltie-mix. A model for military families? You decide.
a military family? Being a soldier is my husband’s job so I never really bought into the military is a family thing that sometimes the military attempts to exude onto all of us in the military. I am an odd duck for certain right now, but a retired Chaplain told me that I was his ideal military wife in his opinion and that over-reliance on the military structure has led to a lot of social problems among the “military”. So here I am, interacting with civilians as well as the military and I am seeing something about that “military family within the military family” thing that is very scary to me right now. When we live like that we pay homage to and rely on the government instead of the people. We live in a vacuum and we can be more easily controlled by the government that way but the people become left out of the loop and their ideas and their wants and needs from their own military become ignored and somewhere down that road we aren’t all in this together. I refuse to go to that place. This administration was very unprepared for this war as far as family support and it has really bitten them in the ass. Personally I have found all the peer support I have needed right here and all the money this administration is now trying to pump into family support scares me a little bit. It’s hush money….their baby has been crying and crying and is now crying hysterically and soldiers are leaving to hush the baby and the crying baby is making it’s voice heard a bit in the media.The administration has got to find a way to hush this baby up! Sadly nothing hushes a crying American family like money does! It’ll be interesting seeing where the money goes and how it is spent because this administration is nothing if not ineffective!
you all need to spend an evening with a proper military commander
How about wes spend an evening seeing reality from a civilian traumatic brain injury survivor who had epilepsy since age 9 and was medically unable to serve in the military, then he can see the effects of domestic policy on the civilians that he repeatedly ignores, as opposed to always going on and on about vets?
You know I have a disabled son who will never just end up being not disabled someday. I’m not numb or indifferent to the fight the disabled have in this country right now under this administration. Clark isn’t only about vets, he got a little shook up though when they started cutting vet programs in middle of this war. Given the area he has spent most of his adult life in I can understand why he had the response that he did at that time. I’m confused about why you feel that he specifically ignores civilians and their needs. My cousin is disabled with something very similar to what my son has but after seeing a geneticist we have been told that it isn’t the same thing, possibly a gene in my family is easily genetically mutated?? My cousin has had a really tough time though getting by on what he has to get by on and I fought many a fight at his side until he married. It’s tough when a person is so alone dealing with issues like these. If you hate the guy though you just hate him and that’s okay with me. You don’t have to like who I like friend. Hang in there…..I’m here with you and someone I will dearly love for the rest of my life is in your boat, I’m not against you friend. My statement about an evening with a military commander is about the issue of the separation between church and state only.
I’m confused about why you feel that he specifically ignores civilians and their needs.
I feel that I have adequatley explained that upthread.
and I don’t know for certain exactly what happened, do you know for certain? Was he getting a lot of questions and focusing on the ones that were important to him at the time? Maybe he was. Once again though considering where he has spent his entire working life and the fact that our nations was at war and they were cutting vet benefits was very upsetting to him. He has good plans for healthcare though for us all. I’m sorry he didn’t answer you question that day. I hear your anger at being ignored and I know what it is like to be ignored in the healthcare industry…..so sad that we call it an industry now.
Right Now on the Polling business , they are not including our two strongest possibilities ,in my opinion. Don’t care how you slice it, either Gore/Dean 08 OR Dean/Gore 08 works for me fine. Mean what you say, Say what you mean!
Well, LOL! I’m a Clarkie, I’m also big on Omar Bradley and George Marshall.)I alsowould have no problem getting behind Russ Feingold. Or Edwards. I love Dennis Kucinich. I also don’t take lightly the sacrifices that were made by those that served so I have the ability to post and hang with such a great crew.
I’m proud to have been involved early on with the Draft Clark movement.
It is precisely the human side of Wes Clark that convinced me we needed to draft him. As a boy in Little Rock, he befriended and defended the kid in school that everyone picked on. For the state swimming championship in Ark., his high school was being told they would have to forfeit because they were one swimmer short for the relays. Clark convinced his coach and the refs that it wasn’t against the rules to
for someone to swim twice, which he did. They won.
As far as selfless goes, he really did some heroic shit in Vietnam, took three AK slugs and saved his men. I like the fact that he brought Head Start into the US Army for dependents. He argued compellingly against Richard Perle in the HSAV prior to the invasion of Iraq. He was very vocal for intervention in Rwanda but sadly, that fell on deaf ears.
This is what Col. David “Hack” Hackworth said about him.
“For the record, I never served with Clark. But after spending three hours interviewing the man for Maxim’s November issue, I’m impressed. He is insightful, he has his act together, he understands what makes national security tick – and he thinks on his feet somewhere around Mach 3. No big surprise, since he graduated first in his class from West Point, which puts him in the supersmart set with Robert E. Lee, Douglas MacArthur and Maxwell Taylor.
Clark was so brilliant, he was whisked off to Oxford as a Rhodes scholar and didn’t get his boots into the Vietnam mud until well after his 1966 West Point class came close to achieving the academy record for the most Purple Hearts in any one war. When he finally got there, he took over a 1st Infantry Division rifle company and was badly wounded.
Lt. Gen. James Hollingsworth, one of our Army’s most distinguished war heroes, says: “Clark took a burst of AK fire, but didn’t stop fighting. He stayed on the field ’til his mission was accomplished and his boys were safe. He was awarded the Silver Star and Purple Heart. And he earned ’em.”
http://www.u-wes-a.com/myth6.html
Wes is my guy – I also believe he would be an asset to anyone’s administration. Swords to plowshares.
Feingold is great, I would have no problem at all getting behind him. And a few others. in the meantime, ’06.
My father is a wonderful “windsock” as it were–when I talk to him I get a good nose for where what I will call the “mainstream (non-blogging) left” is on any given issue. He doesn’t have a computer, gets his news and info mainly from mainstream sources. The only online influence he has comes from me. But he worked in govt for a long time. He’s got that sixth sense…
So a few weeks ago we were talking about politics (how unusual) and he was all Biden all the time (not so much that he was the candidate he’d choose, but how he really trusts him etc. Needless to say I was rolling my eyes on that one. I brought up my man Russ and he basically indicated he didn’t know much about him.
Couple of days ago we talked about politics again and I think in the context of NSA hearings I blurted out”feingold for president.” Suddenly dad knows the name, points out the advantages of having a good midwesterner, and clearly knows the guys strengths (if not weaknesses).
Hmmm…what happened? I can only surmise that between the two conversations, Russ’s name has gotten out a lot more.
(BTW, dad predicted Kerry way back in the early days of the primaries (he liked him, I was more a Dean person). He doesn’t always know what we know, but he’s a very fine pulse test.
In his analysis Chris Bowers says 3 groups of stuffers have been identified for the MyDD poll, the first for Feingold, the second for Clark. How is any differentiation made between stuffer votes and plain old vanilla votes?
I was always against Vietnam and have no military connection (well, my husband was in the Navy pre-1964, so we certainly appreciate the VA). Yet, I can understand Clark’s appeal. He’s intelligent, a fast learner; he doesn’t proselytize, has no credibility gap, and understands military politics and budgets.
He is too wise to proclaim victory prematurely, allow the outing of an operative, or abuse the word “freedoms” by continually repeating it with one fork of the tongue and approving limitations with the other.
If anyone, he could bring troops home ASAP without the impression that the casualties were for naught. In the May 2005 “Washington Monthly,” Gen. Clark wrote, in “War Didn’t and Doesn’t Bring Democracy:”
“Democracy can’t be imposed — it has to be homegrown. In the Middle East democracy has begun to capture the imagination of the people. For Washington to take credit is not only to disparage courageous leaders throughout the region, but also to undercut their influence at the time it most needs to be augmented.”
I want to stop cringing at the actions of our President. I want to trust someone to run the zoo honestly, not with a limited worldview bound by a religious agenda. It’s been so long, so long….