Let me begin by confessing that I am a free speech extremist. There is no question in my mind that the Danish newspaper has the right to publish cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed, cartoons depicting acts of pedophilia, cartoons mocking the Holocaust (incidentally, the latter is shortly expected to appear in a paper in Iran). Any paper in Iran has, in my opinion, the same freedom of speech to publish cartoons mocking the Holocaust as does the New York Times.
Whether the Danish newspaper acted on its own whim and based on its own loathing and disrespect of Islam and Muslim people, or whether they were merely doing their part to help Amrika in its crusade against those who would stand between US and its oil, is irrelevant.
They have every right to do it, and in my opinion, we should all respect their right to do it, and respect them enougb to also acknowledge their right to accept the consequences of having done it.
Whatever their motivation, they are adult human beings, with the free will to choose what to do and what not to do, regardless of the effect their decisions may have on others.
That is a question that moves us out of the realm of free speech and into the realm of responsibility.
I have seen people argue that much worse anti-Muslim material is available all over the internets. This is true. There are lots of Americans on the internet, and Americans have been conditioned since birth to believe that 1) They are an exceptional master race, and 2) Muslims and Arabs are not really human beings.
Not all Americans drink that kool-aid, societal conditioning, even as sophisticated as the US has made it, is never 100% effective. It only works partially in some cases, and not at all in others.
It does, however, work well enough so that there is ample evidence of its effectiveness on the “mainstream” message boards and in the lairs of the “mainstream” bloggers.
While a blogger, a message board poster, and a mainstream, commercial newspaper editor all have the same freedom of speech (or should have, in my opinion), they do not necessarily have the same level of responsibility to a particular community, In the case of the Danish newspaper, that community would be Denmark.
Denmark has a sizeable Muslim community, and once the cartoons were published, they could not be retracted. They were available for dispersal by anyone who for whatever reason, wished to make their publication widely known.
It is not an unrealistic expectation, given the current situation, that a responsible newspaper editor would give some thought to the broader implications of this particular exercise of free speech.
The LEGO company, for example, is now just one company being boycotted by millions of people, although they had nothing to do with the publication of the cartoons, regardless of why they were published, and then re-publicized.
The Danish government, which did issue one of those politician-speak nonpologies, is hardly in a position, and quite probably disinclined, to do the one thing that could have helped matters, and that is, reprimand and penalize the newspaper, not as an affront to their having exercised their freedom of speech, but for having disregarded their responsibility to the community they serve.
A commercial newspaper is not an individual blogging in his pajamas. There is no chance that the US or any government will find any use for even the most rabid anti-Muslim invective to be found on the yahoo boards, even if they print it out and have copies distributed from Africa to Indonesia.
A mainstream newspaper published in a European country, especially one who has supplied expendable crusaders to the US, is a different matter.
It should also be remembered that while it is nearly out of the possibility for many Americans to comprehend, people in the Majority World do not have a positive view of western colonialism.
Perhaps the way to make it most understandable is to say that the Majority World is ungrateful.
Centuries worth of ungrateful, and many of the people demonstrating now are barely, if at all, aware of the cartoons. They are, however quite aware of many other things much more deadly than cartoons.
So the situation becomes delicate here, because as they demonstrate against western neo-colonialism, they are by definition also demonstrating against the native overseers that Washington has installed, and to whom are paid millions, billions, in American tax dollars, precisely to keep them from doing things like demonstrating against western neo-colonialism. Clearly, however US is paying, that amount must increase, see how many of them there are! Torching embassies!
Whether the operation will be successful in heating up anti-Muslim sentiment in Europe sufficient to lower the cost of expendables for US crusade expansion is still unclear.
As with most human endeavor, especially iffy ones like this, the total can exceed the sum of the parts rather rapidly, and who is to say whether people who have been so long denied “freedom of speech” will be willing to return to their normal state of crackdown, even if funds for the purpose are increased.
What is certain is that all empires come to an end, and Europe, at least the people, if not the politicians, are just as aware of the danger represented by Mr. Danger to their own children, and what could appear to be the effects of yet another of Washington’s famous operations, just might evolve into a reminder of a responsibility even larger than that of a Danish newspaper, as people grasp at the freedom to make more clear the simple message that The World Can’t Wait.
I’ve been thinking much on this issue. I’m a free speech extremist, too, I guess. So this issue has been a very difficult one for me to decide how I feel. It brings two beliefs I hold strongly into conflict. The right to free expression versus the responsibility to live harmoniously in a diverse world. I’m still not sure where I stand completely.
Except for one thing. I know I’m happy as heck my tax dollars will be supporting some bombing of Iran real soon now ya hear. Whooo-haw. We got ourselves another war son. And we don’t even have to bomb white peoples. Fuck yeah. (I’m a little distressed over the recent public opinion polls that suggest nearly 60% of my fellow NASCAR Dads and Daughters of the American Revolution are all ready to bomb us some Persian peoples). What the fuck does it take for my people to wake up and want to stop bombing the world into submission. My god are we a stupid lot of fucking trash.
I’m ready to drink more Kool-aid. I want to stop being a dissident and get on board with this bombing and burning of human children and shit. I don’t know what is wrong with me anyway. I’ve done everything I can to become acultureated. Why the fuck can’t I just sit back and enjoy the war on CNN like every other god damned red-blooded American. I’m one ingrateful capitalist, is all I can say. A regular pinko Commie mother fucker. I’d like to watch my own execution on television someday. That would show me. Literally.
I am afraid you are doomed to live out your days as a raghead-lovin’, terrorist sympathizin’, camel jockey appeasin’ book readin’ surrender monkey, who will just never know the joy of donning a Talladega tank top and stepping out into the mosquito-ridden night, holding aloft a blowtorch to chant with your right-thinking red-blooded Murkan brothers USA is Number One! secure in the knowledge that the only way to be Number One is to bomb all other countries in order to strengthen America’s international position.
Why a wimp like you probably doesn’t even spend Saturday nights beating up your own homeless people.
While I agree in theory with , it is inevitable that will always because they never and those who should if they can. And in the there is a small chance that ideas can prevail.
After all, why did ever ?
How do you do those black-out bars? (I need to know for the next time I write a reply to something fundamentally offensive DHinMI has written.)
what bars?
I was and if they then its already redacted!
excellent diary.
Truth can be like the unfolding of a rose,
or the blow of a hammer.
There is so little “right/wrong”, “yes/no”, “black/white” in this world. Having more of it might make things easier. Or it might not.
Excellent job of discussing some of the interlocking rings of ideas to consider regards “free” speech.
I was just remembering that not too long ago (I believe within the past year or so) an artist did some sort of depiction of 9/11 and the towers… maybe people falling or something. Anyway, he was hounded and threatened, and went into hiding, and most definitely was advised to avoid NYC if he valued his life.
Not really related to this, I guess, except in the sense of something being “sacred and untouchable” to someone, no matter how irrational others may feel that to be. Or something like that.
One person’s sacred cow is another persons steak dinner type thing, maybe.
Great diary, by the way. Much to think about.
The 911 events, like the Holocaust, are things that are “sacred” to many people, and to make fun of them, or depict them in an offensive way, causes a very visceral, very emotional response.
And I think even the soft-spoken CAIR people, and the scholars trying hard to keep their words and tone calm, feel that about the Danish cartoons.
Even though the intensity of anti-Muslim sentiment comes as no surprise, to understate the case, such a gratuitous, egregious expression of deliberate contempt and disrespect for a man who is considered by close to 1 in 4 people on earth as the last and definitive Prophet of God is, well, there are really no words for the kind of emotion that one feels.
And when done by a paper in a country that openly supports, aids and abets crimes against humanity against quite a few million of those 1 in 4, well, you know the drill. 🙂
And thank you for the compliment 🙂
Got that shit straight: now dontcha think the Washington Redskins and the Fighting Illini are thanking their lucky stars their ancestors did such a good job civilizin’ them jackpine savage red nigger Injuns that they’ll never have to worry about violent reminders concerning the responsibilities that go along with rights?
Personally, I’m rooting for the fightin’ whites!.
Thanks O Wondrous Sticky One, good to see your vocal chords are on the mend!
It’s like I’m sitting here in awe: wow, I woke up this morning to see people actually talking about the RESPONSIBILITIES that go along with rights.
what the fuck happened here? 😉
Ok, so those death threats were OK but these are terrible? Or these death threats are OK but those were terrible?
Or maybe what you mean is that we should have some good quotes comparing our pseudo-religious power-mongers with their pseudo-religious power-mongers and illustrate the similarity? THAT is a good idea. That is a cool idea. If you do that would you diary and I could use them in a local letter to the paper. Start with a couple of quotes:
The Muslim riots remind me again that this kind of calls for death (quote Riley) (quote coulter) (??) are unacceptable and the opposite of christianity. That is why I call on Riley, Coulter and (??) to disavow these remarks.
cool cool cool.
is that wacko in England that some shock jock show had on who called for the execution of the cartoonist, apparently unaware there were 12 of them.
Unless you count people chanting “Death to Denmark,” that’s it for the death threats.
It should also be pointed out that the vast majority of demonstrators have done nothing but that – demonstrate, waving signs, chanting slogans and burning flags. A handful of people have set fire to buildings and a few have thrown rocks.
Most of the violence has occurred as a result of puppet police committing acts of violence and murder against the demonstrators.
Sure would be interesting to do a background check on those people in particular.
I wonder, have any of these people been corresponding with American citizens (like maybe even some who are employed by the gov)?.
And even if you did, you might not find any actual “assets” among them. Once you get an angry crowd, of any ethnicity, anywhere, you can count on the law of numbers that somebody will throw something, burn something, start a fight, etc.
That is the reason that the operation may not turn out to have been such a good idea. Oh, Europe may eventually be persuaded to pump their anti-Muslim sentiment closer to American levels of frothiness, and agree to provide expendables at a lower price for the crusade in Iran, but the client states will definitely be demanding more money, as the world can see just how difficult it is to maintain a crackdown, but the main reason it is not a very smart operation is that the people are just too much of a wild card. As has been pointed out by me and several others, there are quite a few demonstrators who are barely, if at all, even aware of the cartoons, they are protesting western colonialism.
Doesn’t even have to be an angry crowd–witness the presumably happy drunken sports fans who take to the streets, overturn cars, set fires, and throw things through shop windows after the home team wins the Big Game.
Don’t miss this: http://mathaba.net/0_index.shtml?x=508448
with glee as his “law enforcement officers” off a bunch of demonstrators.
This is a real opportunity for the puppets to stand up and be noticed by Bush.
Demagogues of all stripes aren’t failing to exploit this, are they? It’s impolite, of course, to inquire ‘who benefits’?
I’d quibble only with your title; free speech AND responsibility go together.
Le Colonel Chabert:
because of the other diary called Free Speech vs Fascism, and I am not able to keep my claws 100% retracted all the time, though I do make the effort.
Thank you for your kind words 🙂
I am not a free speech extremist. I realized quite a while ago that it was not a good idea to say aloud every thought that crossed my mind. There are reactions and responses and consequences.
I see it as “Free Speech with Responsibility.”
Well but the whole point of free speech is there’s a big difference between “not a good idea” and “illegal”.
Indeed. I’ve heard the term “self-censorship” being bandied about in the context of this debate (I believe it was a Danish editor who said the paper actually set out to test whether or not people were subjecting themselves to ‘self-censorship’).
Self-censorship somehow being framed as a bad thing. Because here in the west (US even moreso than in Europe) we understand freedom to mean complete total wreckless abandon–the unfettered, don’t-fence-me-in absolute right to do whatever the fuck we want, whether it is a ‘good idea’ or not. I question that understanding of freedom and have always advocated a focus on the responsibilities that go along with these “rights” and this “freedom (from accountability)”.
Is ‘self-censorship’ always necessarily such a bad idea? The reality of the world is that ‘we’ human beings are never going to ‘just get along’–if we do not wish to subject ourselves to state censorship in the interest of ‘keeping the peace,’ perhaps a bit of ‘self-censorship’ is not necessarily a bad thing.
I’m thinking back on some of my experiences as a blogger: instances in which I have been subject to such a filthy barrage of insults, etc. for my “poor choice of words.” And the rebuttal to my objections to these responses: you made your bed, now lie in it. You are responsible for what you write, now accept the consequences.
OK, so my house hasn’t yet been set ablaze, sticks and stones will break your bones, but words will never hurt you.
I’m not trying to put flame wars on a par with what’s going on in response to this (imo highly irresponsible) exercise of ‘free speech’, just trying to point to the way the very same logic is regularly applied here in the blogosphere (i.e.: when you exercise the ‘right’ of free speech, you must accept the ‘responsibility’ for the consequences).
We exercise ‘self-censorship’ (and demand that others do the same) all the time here in the interest of containing flame wars.
If an individual posting on a blog is expected to accept the responsibility for ‘self-censorship’ in the interest of ‘keeping the peace’ and containing flame wars, why aren’t we demanding the same of a ‘respected’ European paper?
your own personal freedom of speech to the freedom of speech as applied by our corporate and political masters who own the media in their own and many other countries.
how did you know I was blogging in my pajamas????
My comment: If it had just been a blogger posting these types of cartoons on the net, I am sure there would not have been riots. One of the main points for me and I’m sure for the Muslums that were offended is that this was a RESPECTED newspaper. Representing western values.
<< Oh it gets better my friends… (none / 0)
Cartoon editor Fleming Rose and the tentacles of PNAC?
Cartoons are a purposeful provocation
It turns out the editor who originally publshed the “offensive” Muslim cartoons is a disciple of Daniel Pipes and the “clash of civilizations” theory put out by Project for a New American Century. PNAC is the outfit that called for a “Pearl Harbor event’ in order to initiate a global war against the Muslim world.
by thor on Wed Feb 08, 2006 at 12:21:06 AM PD>>>>
It turns out the editor who originally publshed the “offensive” Muslim cartoons is a disciple of Daniel Pipes and the “clash of civilizations” theory put out by Project for a New American Century
Thanks for finding this.
I think I am guessing, and then it turns out I was right all along.
God! how I hate the way we are being conned by this. The Rethugs just press the “free speech” button and we respond like a barbie doll, and support their agenda.
We have to stop enabling them.
.
RECOMMENDED – DTF Diary to be frontpaged??
Sounds like the fury of a Norwegian god at Daily Kos (links added) ::
Oh it gets better my friends … . (none / 0)
Cartoon editor Flemming Rose and the tentacles of PNAC?
Cartoons are a purposeful provocation.
“Agents of certain persuasion” are behind the egregious affront to Islam in order to provoke Muslims, Professor Mikael Rothstein of the University of Copenhagen told the BBC. The key “agent” is Flemming Rose, the cultural editor of JP, who commissioned cartoonists to produce the blasphemous images and then published them in Denmark’s leading morning paper last September.
The International Herald Tribune, which reported on the offensive cartoons on January 1, noted that even the liberalism of Rose had its limits when it came to criticism of Zionist leaders and their crimes. Rose also has clear ties to the Zionist Neo-Cons behind the “war on terror.”
Diary published by JohnnyCougar —
Ritter on War With Iran: “It’s going to happen.” .
My analysis of a link to the Hariri murder in Beirut wasn’t so far off, just look for a Mossad operation.
Twelve Despicable Danish Cartoons of Islam’s Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) ::
by Mohamed Khodr
(Friday December 09 2005)
“The media has always served, at least initially, as an extension of governmental foreign policies, especially, war policies. To inflame American passion against Spain prior to the Spanish-American War, the most powerful media mogul in the country, William Randolph Hearst sent his reporters to Cuba with the admonition: “You bring me the pictures, I’ll supply the war.”
Reporter: Mr. Gandhi, what do you think of Western Civilization?
Gandhi: “It would be nice”
“Oh, Mankind! We created you from a single soul, male and female, (Adam and Eve) and made you into nations and tribes, so that you may come to know one another (not to despise each other). Truly, the most honored of you in God’s sight is the one who is most righteous.”
— (Holy Qur’an: 49:13)
“All nice people like us, are WE
And every one else is THEY”.
Interesting – read on …
DENMARK, the JP paper, and Islam’s Glorious Prophet, Muhammad (pbuh):
While Denmark joined America’s “Coalition of the Killing” in Iraq committing what amounts to war crimes against humanity, a tabloid paper, the JP, saw fit to make its priority the prejudicial and racist depiction of Islam’s Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) rather than focus on much more serious issues such as the war in Iraq or domestically such as the lack of future workers to support Denmark’s aging population. [2]: The 12 Cartoons of the Prophet)]
Yet the Muslim world is repeatedly told by the civilized west that the “war on terrorism” is not a war on Islam but on Islamofascists. True to form—lies, hypocrisy, double standards, media propaganda, and spin have always been the hallmark of western civilization and democracy—whereby “all men are created equal” meant only white Christian landlords have equal rights, damn the “others”.
“But I will not let myself be reduced to silence.”
▼ ▼ ▼ MY DIARY
And for other stunning revelations from the same source:
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=769
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=3170
http://www.rense.com/general68/thetrialofholocaust.htm
Like it or not, put out by PNAC or the Rand Institute or not, if the present Islamic terrorist movement doesn’t represent a war on Western civilization, I’d like to know what does.
Glib and facile dismissal of an idea because it is more avidly claimed by a political opponent in no logical way equates to that idea being errant.
In this case, I’d need excellent evidence to the contrary to make me change my mind to believe that we are not engaged in a clash of civilizations.
On our side, it’s certainly not a war on terrorism since no one in the West is going after any terrorist entities in a publicly declared war as we are going after Islamic terrorists.
Sometimes the repugnantly distasteful is true. And sometimes it is foolish to kid ourselves that it isn’t.
.
Strength of a democracy is where people have their freedoms, act responsibly in society, care for their brothers and sisters, and create living space for minorities and personal freedom. I use the word care for, to differentiate from large groups in society who offer compassion by voice only. Care in a manner of touching, emotion and reaching out by offering an escape from poverty, illness and poor education. Exchange the Danish and Dutch word of xeno- into homo-phobia, and it touches closer to home in the greatest democracy of the world.
All elements involved with the Danish cartoons, I have witnessed in the Netherlands with the murders of politician Pim Fortuyn and filmmaker Theo van Gogh, complete with the ugliness of Dutch mob out of control and loss of their senses. The freedom of speech of Pim Fortuyn, running for parliament in national election, inspired a left-wing, vegan animal-rights campaigner van der Graaf to execute Fortuyn in Mediacenter Hilversum, minutes after a hours long live radio interview. The supporters of Pim Fortuyn gathered and demonstrated in The Hague outside the parliament buildings that same evening. Scared politicians hid themselves in small attic space when the mob threw rocks, shattered windows and set fire to cars in a underground parking nearby. Extremists gained in the following election, an upheaval in Dutch politics.
Imprisonment for 12 years
The murder of Theo van Gogh was inspired by his film Submission , depicting the suppression of women and wife beating specifically within Dutch Muslim society. The short film was produced in combination with a script written by Dutch politician Hirsi Ali of the center-right Liberal Conservatives VVD. The attacker Mohammed Bouyeri was a self-taught Islamist, focused on the Sharia punishments for heretics, cutting off limbs and heads. Mohammed practised with the slaughter of animals, in the latest 2-hour presentation in court it became clear MB is a nut case and was not positioned in the Dutch Muslim community. The result of the van Gogh murder was a rise of xenophobia and extremism from both sides. White teenagers torched Muslim grammar schools and mosques, a very ugly mob scene that surprised people throughout Europe and the World.
«« click on pic for story
Sentenced to life imprisonment, no probation possible
In my opinion, by reaching out to the Muslim community in Amsterdam by mayor Job Cohen, and across the country by PM Jan Peter Balkenende, has prevented further escalation in Dutch society.
The tinder box in the Middle East and the Clash of “Civilizations” offers extremism further gains after 911 and the illegal invasion and occupation of an Arab country Iraq. Combined with occupation of Palestinian territory by Israelis, the warmongering against Syria and Iran has led to the explosion of anger, violence, destruction and killing of innocent people. The Westerners must understand how the masses can be manipulated and used by agent provocateurs for a goal not intended by the demonstrators. Every totalitarian state is well versed in the strategy of provocateurs used to perfection in the Soviet era of communism, Stalin and Saddam Hussein. It is clear to me and confirmed by analysis of ME experts, the Lebanese demonstration in Beirut was hijacked by agent provocateurs, which led to fire bombing of the Danish embassy and a Christian church nearby. Syrian supporters of Hezbollah and Palestinians were the cause of the excessive violence in Beirut, to provoke sectarian division in Lebanon.
In Irag you will find the protest demonstrations are confined to the Al Sadr militia and its supporters in Kut and southern cities of Iraq. The large demonstrations in Afghanistan in the cities of Herat, Kandahar, Kabul and at the NATO base in Maymana, were staged by Taliban supporters and the conservative Islamists. In Pakistan there were large demonstrations in Peshawar and in India in the region of Kashmir.
It’s all very predictable, and under the false pretense of freedom of speech, politicians and journalists were carried by this wave of a violent tsunami. No one knows how to calm the eruption in the oceans of a world population.
The reaction in the Netherlands is very clear, xenophobic fear has won. The right-wing 1-seat party of politician Geert Wilders has published the despicable cartoons on his website, which led to retaliations by Islamists with anti-semitic expression. A war of words has led to bloodshed and a further division in European society, the future consequences no one seems to care about.
I just heard a report on Dutch radio from the ruling right-wing party of Ms Pia Kjaersgaard of Denmark, where she calls for prosecution of the imams in Denmark with the charge of treason and calls all his Muslim supporters traitors. I suppose scholar Kjaersgaard has taken lessons from RW republicans in the States.
● DTF Thought Provoking
● The Populist Deficiency of European Social Democracy
“But I will not let myself be reduced to silence.”
▼ ▼ ▼ MY DIARY
I’m a very much a freedom of speech advocate and I don’t think that religious sensibilities ought to be protected but this action had no purpose but provocation and such willful disregard for both the public and individual good ought to have consequences. And according to Salon, “Article 140 of the Criminal Code allows for a fine and up to four months of imprisonment for demeaning a ‘recognized religious community’.” I’ve haven’t read anything that says that Denmark is taking action under this law. If that’s the case, the Danish government ought to be forced to say why.
A Danish prosecutor refused to apply the law when requested by Muslim groups.
you are advocating a government “reprimand and penalize” a newspaper for publishing a cartoon?
i dont care who it offends….that is the true sign we are living in the state of fascism.
im not arguing against responsibility….im arguing against a govt’s undue influence on speech.
it would only be appropriate to do that in a case where the government involved wished to disassociate itself from the message and sentiments expressed by the cartoons, to refocus protests on the newspaper who had exercised their free speech in order to express their contempt for 800 thousand or so people in Denmark, and close to a couple billion people in the world.
As opposed to the situation you have now, where the focus is on Denmark itself.
Obviously, no such action should be taken when the government in question agrees with the sentiments expressed by the cartoon. Governments also have freedom of speech, and freedom to make their own decisions regarding the question of responsibility, if any, they have to their citizens. 🙂
Ductape, You don’t get it: Free people are free to make mistakes and to commit crimes.
Governments, esp western dumb-ocratic ones, are free people, too, see? And they’re free to make mistakes and to commit crimes just like everyone else in the free world.
It’s free! For the taking….
and if they break it I guess they should be prosecuted. That seems to be how things work in most western countries (excludng the unique case of the bush administration) Check out section 140 of the Danish Criminal Code. It looks like a clear breech of national law. Why shouldnt the law be enforced? The Danes in a supposedly fully functioning democracy have chosen to have laws restricting freedom of speech.
I don’t get you, DF. You are saying the government should prosecute the newspaper? I mean, there are other ways to disassociate themselves that don’t involve stomping on free speech. Which is important, even if people don’t like it. Even if a whole lot of people don’t like it.
Seriously, if I draw a picture of Jesus passed out drunk and naked, that would piss a lot of people off. What about Jesus peeing on Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes? That would piss people off too. Hell, if I draw a picture of a black guy and label it “Jesus” that would piss off a sizable contingent of Americans.
Should the US government fine me or put me in jail for this? Or is that only if our domestic fundies start massive riots?
I just… Muslims aren’t bad, but Islamic fundamentalism is bad, just as Christian fundamentalism is bad. Since this is at least nominally about Islamic fundamentalists being offended about something that goes against their religion, I just don’t get how you can argue that the government should intervene. I don’t want to see a precedent like that.
Precisely because free speech is protected in Denmark, I don’t think prosecution would be either possible or appropriate.
However, they could certainly be held responsible for the harm the cartoons have caused to other Danish companies, which would be penalizing them in a way, but again, this would only be an appropriate action for a government who did not concur with the sentiments expressed by the cartoons and sincerely did wish to disassociate themselves, as you can imagine might occur had the newspaper chosen to publish old Nazi cartoons of Jews. 🙂
observer has just done a diary
Cartoons and Danish Law
that indicates that Denmark does have laws that would theoretically be applicable in this case.
However, it would appear that an unwritten clause of the law excludes Muslims.
Condi the Dominatrix will unleash her punishment as she did on Norway when a power in that country called for a boycott of Israel.
They will punish anyone who does not comply or anyone who dares to ask for accountability from Israel. You are correct, some are simply above the law.
Ok… if there is no law that makes the speech illegal, then on what grounds would the government penalize the newspaper for it? I’m really not understanding what you are advocating for here.
There are laws, but the prosecutor made the decision not to prosecute in this case. After all, it is not like the paper published anti-Semitic cartoons.
Ok so you ARE saying they should have prosecuted?
and danish law makes it pretty clear an offence was committd. However, a prosecutor refused to prosecute when requested by Muslim groups. This led to a rise in tension.
Yeah, I’m just trying to figure out what Ductape Fatwa was arguing for. Sounds like he wanted them to prosecute. Which I think is not good. I think they made the right call. But that is me.
Anyway, whatever!
I am on the citizen advisory panel of my local newspaper and was asked to comment on this topic yesterday as they debated whether to reprint the cartoons. I, too, was conflicted because, while I believe strongly in the right to free speech, I believe we have another larger responsibility to refrain from pouring gasoline on an already raging fire. You stated so eloquently my feelings on the subject. I ended up saying something about just because you have the right to do something doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do.
the right thing to do at this point would be for every single media outlet in the world to show solidarity on the issue of free speech and reprint every single cartoon the muslim fundies are having a problem with.
I don’t agree with this. Underscoring an irresponsible action by repeating it doesn’t prove anything except that all newspapers are capable of being irresponsible. Newspapers ought to show their solidarity with free speech by printing editorials which fully explain their position on the conflict between free speech and responsibility.
This goes to the heart of the matter for so much of what is wrong with the world, 2ndnature, will you you just keep repeating that, repeating that, repeating that, till you’re blue in the face if you must?
Thanks for talking sense to your paper–esp since, as Ductape so clearly reminds us–however much we’d like to think our little self-constructed blogosphere is “separate but equal” to the print and publishing industry, the fact is, it isn’t and never will be. Therefore, we must continue to seek to exert influence over the print media and publishing industry, however pathetic this industry may have since become.
…and people laughed at the readiness of the FEMA concentration camps. Even most ‘progressives’ are buying into thise senseless proaganda driven hatred.
It’s too late. Pipes and Co won.
For those who are driving toward military action against Iran, which this is building, what happens when a bunker buster is accidently replaced with one 100x more powerful?
Yes. How the neocons must be enjoying this. It’s very Rovian, as well, because it is a version of his dictum that you attack an enemy where he’s strongest, not where he’s weakest. In this case, for the purposes of rallying war support, the “enemy” is us, and they are “attacking” us by luring us with the chimera that this is an issue of free speech. As you say, rumi, look how quickly a lot of progressives are falling for their manipulation, just like before the Afghan. and Iraq wars. It’s not just right-wingers who are pissed off at life and welcome an enemy to hate.
I cannot get World War II anti-Jewish posters out of my head this morning. What’s next? The Protocols of Islam? The rumor that Muslims eat babies and that it was really they who killed Jesus?
We need to work on a Red Herring Cookbook. Sadly, the food will be for our wake.
You have always had my uncompromised respect. In my view of you as one of the most talented people here, it helps to know that you see the possible manipulation by the cartoon propaganda. We could both be wrong about this, but I’m afraid not.
Your Red Herring Cookbook is a sadly brilliant idea and deserves a diary of its own some day. After this many years of Bush rule, we can surely all contribute at least one recipe. As it happens, this month’s BooBook selection, Lies My Teachers Told Me, is a textbook of hundreds of years of red herrings propagated by our government, spread by our media, and swallowed by our population.
(And thank you. Respect flows from me to you, too.)
😉 thank you,
I can only hope that when crunchtime comes, we both land in the same camp.
Why don’t progressives remember the Koran/Newseek fiasco and how those protests had to be built? They didn’t occur spontaneously. Why does this outrage come now instead of back in November when they were originally published? Is it convenient to the white Baptist church arsons in the South?….the passing of Mrs. King?…the drive to Iran?…the announcement of Bush’s H-bomb redevelopment?
Unfortunately there is a document being used by fundamentalist Christian claiming it to show a conspiracy to set up a world Khallifate. This baptist ministry web site reprints an article from the Swiss newspaper Le Temps from October 2005. It does not make any bones that it considers the pamphlet to be of unquestioned veracity.
From the link…
Isn’t that from the CIApress publishers, the same folks that brought us ‘Rebuilding America’s Defenses’?
Yes. How the neocons must be enjoying this. It’s very Rovian, as well, because it is a version of his dictum that you attack an enemy where he’s strongest, not where he’s weakest.
Actually, I think the dictum you’re referring to is more like you attack an enemy where you yourself is weakest. We’ve seen alot of that kind: Bush lackeys’ swiftbouting of Kerry’s military service et.c.
Here’ how it’s really works:
The GOP has developed this strategy to perfection. The Dems will never conquer this if they continue interpreting Rove’s strategy as you do.
It’s also called a false flag operation. The Dems aren’t just misinterpreting the propaganda, they sound just like Rove’s faithful followers.
Thanks for the correction, high5. I should have included that aspect of the Rovian Way in my comment, since it seems to me that in actual practice you and I have each provided a different half, but only half, of the same formula.
Using Bush’s military service Vs. Kerry’s as an example–
Bush has a vulnerable spot in military service, so they attack Kerry’s military service, thus precluding us from attacking Bush in the same way. Right? But it only works well if in doing that they are attacking what would ordinarily be perceived as Kerry’s strength. His supporters thought he was a good choice because of his military service. So the Rove way was not only to finagle a way in which Bush’s weakness was protected, but Kerry’s supposed greatest strength was cut off at the knees, too.
If you still think I’m seeing this incorrectly, let me know.
Well, um, I didn’t mean my point of view to be a correction of yours. Just pointing out what I see as a more effective way of interpreting things. Solely saying that an attack on your strength is what’s doing you in, how do you counter that?
That’s why I thanked you–because I was saying “solely,” and you were right to add the other element. 🙂
I’d think one way to counter an attack on our strength is to stand up taller and more confidently in it. Kerry, at least imo, didn’t do that very effectively in regard to his military service. But I don’t want to get off on a Kerry tangent.
In this case, when neocons may be trying to provoke the West into war–at least in part by triggering our free speech impulses–we can refuse to be baited into adding to the outrage that could fuel their war.
My problem with Mohammed Khodr’s comments about the cartoons is that, as I understand it, they included the one showing an Islamic schoolboy who happended to be called Mohammed with a condemnation of the commissioning newspaper in Arabic and Farsi written on a chalkboard. Please correct me if this was not part of the original 12. In addition, some Immams in Danmark were sent even more offensive cartoons including one with Mohammed depicted with a pig’s snout as a nose. They took three of these additional ones with them when they visited the Middle East to publicise the newspaper’s actions. While they claim to have made it clear these did not form part of the original publication, It would seem that this part of their message did not get through or was deliberately ignored so the situation was further inflamed.
Now it seems to me that Khodr’s condemnation of the entire set was immoderate and a more detailed critique of the diffent forms and intensity of offence caused be each of the 12 would have promoted the understanding of the hurt. Instead the reactions are to a myth of what was printed. One is particularly offensive. This is a very similar concern I had to that of the Christian fundamentalists’ protests about the BBC showing “Jerry Springer – the Opera”. They were based on false reports of its content published by those who organised the protests.
Now if they Danish newspaper was ignorant of the degree of the offense caused by some of the cartoons before publication, they certainly were by the start of this year.What then of their action to permit the republication by a number of European newspapers in an “act of solidarity”? They do after all hold the copyright of the images. it should be noted that none of the UK “Fleet Street” papers printed them. The BBC showd a fast out of focus pan over the images in the papers but at least one US network news refused to show them. With the images in the public domain, what was the motive to a French magazine reproduce them again? Here I agree with the French President who described the reprinting as “provocation”.
Let’s see what US Undersecretary of State Fried said in a press conference on 6 February about the Danish cartoons about Mohammed:
Now that the cartoons could incite violence against Muslims (and arguably one causes such offense that its publication could be seen to be an act of psychological violence) seems to have gone over the State Department’s heads. The lack of stronger criticism in the case of offending muslims does not seem to chime with the policy towards Judaism which could quite rightly lead to accusations of double standards. Evidence this extract from a report to Congress on Anti-Semitism:
Earlier today I say another statement from a US government spokesman condemning the Anne Frank/Hitler cartoon stating that it was wrong to attack the Holocaust. (Sorry have not found a link yet and will add details when I have found them). The unfortunate thing is that this sort of doublespeak results in reactions like that shown by the BBC in vox-pop interviews filmed in Beirut, the original cartoons are seen as part of an American-Israeli conspiracy to slander Islam. That even came from students at the American University who explained that the conspiracy was to enable attacks on Muslim countries like Iraq.
In addition, some Immams in Danmark were sent even more offensive cartoons including one with Mohammed depicted with a pig’s snout as a nose.
They claimed that the three additional “cartoons” were sent to them but wouldn´t say anything about how they got them. Slight difference.
At least one of them seems to be a fake.
http://ekstrabladet.dk/VisArtikel.iasp?PageID=334182
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4686536.stm
http://www.neandernews.com/
First picture on the right the original from some sort of pig-squealing competition in France apparently. Picture in the middle of the page the “offensive cartoon” allegedly used by the immans.
Oh, and according to http://egyptiansandmonkey.blogspot.com/
the 12 Danish cartoons were published in Egypt in Oktober 2005. Without any visible reaction.
You are free speech extremist in the same manner that Rove is a Democrat. Declaring yourself so does not make you so. Freedom of speech is the solution to the riots, not the cause. Mob violence is not acceptable discourse.
The solution to bad speech is more speech. I think the Iranian newspaper has a point with an exception – the Iranian government controls the newspaper. The Holocaust was a terror grounded in explicit Christian ideology. Christian newspapers pointing out Muslim terror with religious ridicule can expect a response that includes Muslim newspapers pointing out a far more horrible Christian terror with religious ridicule – not death threats. (I suppose the Iranians failed to notice that Holocaust deniers can thrive in America.) How would American Christians feel about arguably accurate illustrations of cross-bearing god-fearing Nazis? They would be angry. They would act in their government to change things. They would not riot because they would not need to riot. THOSE WITH THE FREEDOM TO SPEAK, ACT, CAUSE CHANGE AND VOTE DON’T RIOT. The people who are rioting do NOT have those freedoms.
ASKING THE DANES TO GIVE UP FREEDOM OF SPEECH BECAUSE REPRESSED PEOPLE ARE LIMITED TO RIOTING FOR POLITICAL SELF-EXPRESSION IS PERVERSE AT BEST.
IF the Danish government refused to protect the newspaper in question, then the Danish government is harming freedom of the press. I think the Danish government is being cowardly and should more strongly support the cartoons.
What other things offend the rioting extremist? Should we decrease our own freedoms until we are as powerless before our government as they are before theirs? Feminism offends them. Want to get rid of all depictions of women being anything but covered and cowed?
Violence is not acceptable. It is no more acceptable for Muslim leaders to call for death of a liberal than it is for Coulter to call for hate crimes against liberals with baseball bats.
The problem is not the cartoons. It is the political and personal environment of the reactions. It is our responsibility in that we played a part to create those conditions or failed to act to prevent those conditions. This does not imply that censorship or mob violence are reasonable on either side.
As far as I can see, we have becomme as powerless before our government as they are before theirs–not by decreasing our freedoms, but rather by relinquishing our responsibilities.
But the Danish newspapers, as are the ones in U.S., are private/corporate owned. There are controls and limits on what is published. Heck, that is one of the constant frustrations with our MSM.
“Free speech” does not mean unrestrained speech. There are laws that limit what can be said. observer393 has a diary: Cartoons and Danish Law that would indicate publishing these cartoons was illegal.
As to: The solution to bad speech is more speech.
“Speech” in the examples of the Danish newspaper and the Iranian newspaper makes me wonder who is truly served. And what is gained or lost? Speech is not dialogue.
You made an excellent point:
It is the political and personal environment of the reactions. It is our responsibility in that we played a part to create those conditions or failed to act to prevent those conditions.
Btw, don’t you wonder what the affect of watching/reading about the rioting Muslims of the world will have on the Gonzales hearings? What’s a little wiretapping when the world is filled with so many crazy folks who get riled up over cartoons?
Why is LEGO being boycotted? You don’t explain.
Great diary as usual DTF, but I had the same question as Geov. Is LEGO perhaps a Danish company or something? I’d be interested in finding out about this detail as well. Thx.
According to Wikipedia, LEGO is a family-owned business based in Billund, Denmark.
Thanks, SecondNature! I wondered if that was the connection. Much appreciated!
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Danish cartoons debated with an editor of France Soir and a Muslim cleric Mustapha.
France Soir: “What is not prohibited, is therefore allowed. In France, blasphemy is allowed.”
BBC World Radio
“But I will not let myself be reduced to silence.”
▼ ▼ ▼ MY DIARY
Saying a newspaper should publish responsibly to avoid provoking violent protests is like saying a woman should dress responsibily to avoid gang rape. Cartoons and mini-skirts do not justify physical aggression.
Personally, I’ve been in a state of moral outrage for five years now and I haven’t once fire-bombed an embassy…
These world-wide protests do not reflect badly upon purveyors of free speech and they are not responsible for was is an absurb over-reaction. Cartoons did not incite these riots; the Imans did.
It all just serves Neo-con designs too well by showing Muslims raving, screaming, slapping their foreheads, rending their clothes and generally acting like rabid lunatics over cartoons.
We have that here, a bit, just look at the Republicans battle against… SpongeBob.
The Fundie Extremist waging their Holy War with Fundie Extremists. It’s beyond absurd.
But seriously, your post drew me out of lurk mode:
You’re right about the cartoons and mini-skirts don’t justify aggression.
I had a woman tell me something that has stayed with me and I try to follow it.
She said that my feelings can never hurt me; but my reactions to them could.
I’m tending to think this is all propaganda so that Bush Inc can show the world how “crazy radical” their enemies really are…
“You’re evil!”
“No, YOU’RE evil!”
“I know YOU are but what am I?”
“Say that again and I’ll bomb you!”
“Ha, ha, ha, I’ll bomb you back with bigger bombs!”
“I’ll attack an American city!”
“I’ll attack an Arab country!”
“I’ll provoke violent protests all over the world!”
“I’ll meet you on the battlefield of Armagedden and MY GOD will come down out of the sky and turn you and all your people into puddles of blood!”
“No, MY GOD will come out of the sky with his mighty sword and slay the Great Satan and all his minions!”
“Heh, heh, heh, I’ll go up in the sky and meet MY LORD in the New Jerusalem and live forever!”
“Hee, hee, hee, I’ll go to Heaven and indulge myself with 70 virgins forever!”
“Yeah, let’s do it.”