Today, I heard author and blogger Andrew Bard Schmookler speak about the problems in our society. The reason he says that liberalism frequently doesn’t have spine is because it has difficulty recognizing the concept of good and evil. I think that this concept can very easily be applied to our Democratic leaders frequently. Although they have done better this time around, especially in their questioning of Chertoff, they still have a long ways to go before developing the kind of spine that we would like to see here in this community.
Schmookler discusses spirituality in applying his concepts. He says that spiritual well-being and goodness involves wholeness, while evil involves brokenness. Before the 1960’s, there were very clear institutions that defined right and wrong. They were the school, parents, churches, and society. All our movies had black and white endings in which the good guys had a clear point of reference to look forward to.
However, this old order was not adequate. It did not take into account the fact that there were many people in this country who did not fit in to this mold. Blacks, gays, women who wanted to work on their own, mentally ill people, and other such nonconformists did not fit into this established order. So, while this order was very good at defining right from wrong, it was too narrow and too rigid. People who did not fit in were marginalized and shut out. This structure was basically set up for the so-called traditional American families.
The 1960’s movement was a revolt against that. People realized that there were more than just one way to do things. “If it feels good, do it!” became the watchword of the day. People experimented with drugs, sexuality, protested the war, challenged the doctrines of mindless conformity, and helped bring about a society that was much more inclusive than before. People are becoming more tolerant of people that are different than them, although there is a long ways to go in that respect. The same-sex lifestyle has become accepted in places like Massachusetts and Vermont. Public figures can get fired for making racist or sexist remarks.
But in the name of inclusiveness, Schmookler argues that liberalism has lost sight of the possibility of evil. This explains why we saw such howlers as Kerry saying, “Bush is basically a good man. We just have different ideas of running things,” in the last election campaign. This explains why we see Joe Lieberman and Henry Cuellar kissing up to Bush. The problem with our Democratic leadership is that many of them still see the Bush administration as basically good despite all their flaws. That is why their criticism and opposition to their policies is a lot more muted than it should be. Schmookler argues that they do not see that our society has become locked in a struggle between good and evil:
Our present rulers don’t want the Geneva Conventions ban on torture to hold them back. Other Americans are struggling to return our country to a willingness to be ruled by law, and to sheer human decency.
Our present government has no interest in restraining greed to avoid potentially catastrophic climate change and other degradations of the biosphere. Others in this country are devoting our energies to moving America toward a way of life in harmony with earth’s living systems.
The forces now dominating America are moving relentlessly to shift power from the weak and vulnerable to those already mighty, and to transfer wealth from those who have less to those already rich beyond any rational need for more. Many of us are striving to create a country where principles of justice hold sway.
Such struggles have characterized the whole sweep of civilized history. On the one side are forces that care for life and work to create and maintain life-serving structures. On the other side are forces that tear such structures apart.
Philosopher and sociologist Philip Selznick says in his book “Moral Commonwealth” that we have overturned our old institutions of right and wrong and are now in a moral vacuum in which reality is a matter of opinion. And Bush and his crew have taken full advantage. They think that it is OK to torture, kill hundreds of thousands of civilians, take away money from Social Security, veterans’ benefits, Medicare, and education, look the other way as thousands were dying in New Orleans, and commit treason for partisan political purposes. Schmookler points out that this moral relativism has gotten to such a point that fundamentalists he knows say that in their truth, they would not have participated in the Holocaust. But, they say, the Nazis had their own worldview that says it was OK; therefore, why should they pass judgment on them?
At this point in time, I would point out that it is not people who are evil; it is a matter of forces of good and evil. Good is defined by Schmookler as wholeness and evil as brokenness. Evil happens when a person becomes so broken and so corrupted by their experiences that they turn into a monster. This is what happened to Rove; he grew up idolizing Richard Nixon and kept pictures of him on his bedroom wall. Now, Rove operates out of the view that Nixon’s only problem is that he did not do a good enough job of not getting caught.
The problem with our spineless democrats is that they are uncomfortable with such terms. Schmookler says:
Perhaps the deepest element in the widespread liberal resistance to the idea of evil lies in the strain of thought called “moral relativism.” It’s surprising how widely such thinking has infiltrated our culture. Among students I’ve dealt with across two generations, it’s been common to hear -even from those who describe themselves as Biblical Christians–such statements as “What the Nazis did at Auschwitz isn’t what I would have done, but from within their perspective it was right, and so it was right for them.”
The idea that there is no important distinction to be made between right desire and wrong desire has its sources in modern philosophical thought but is probably most powerfully driven by our consumerist economy, which doesn’t care what kind of impulse we gratify so long as we seek our gratification through what can be bought and sold.
But whatever the sources of this moral relativism, among the results of this failure to distinguish between choices that are good and those that are not has been a radical transformation -a degradation–in this nation’s cultural expressions.
But this kind of moral relativism is what gets us monsters like John Negroponte. In 1980, right-wing death squads assassinated Archbishop Oscar Romero. But instead of putting the brakes on such activities, Negroponte extended them far and beyond what they were doing back before he took office as ambassador to Honduras. But despite this, the Democrats did not offer any meaningful opposition when he was named Director of National Intelligence. They either did not know or did not care about his past. Instead, they gushed over his qualifications and easily confirmed him to his post. All this, despite the possibility that he may also have been the man organizing the death squads in Iraq, which I wrote about yesterday. So, by his silence about this assassination, Negroponte gave his assent to this barbaric assassination. And by their silence, the Democrats gave their assent to Negroponte’s assent.
On the other hand, we cannot return to the days of mindless conformity of the 1950’s. The logical extreme of this mindless conformity is doctrines like that of Zarqawi’s; he has a feature in the NYT Magazine.
Many of these rootless and unwanted believers found a spiritual and political home in a type of Islam called Salafism. Not surprisingly, perhaps, Salafism emphasizes the rootlessness of faith. It despises local saints and mystical practices (like those of Sufism) and any other departures from the most rigid Sunnism. It despises Shiites. It commonly despises all other sects or practices that Salafis might consider “bida,” or “innovation.” Given this intense preoccupation with purity, Salafis are constantly trying to identify and expel the impure. This is called “takfir,” often translated as “excommunication”: an old, disused term that has found new life in Salafism, which permits, even encourages, the killing of Muslims whom Salafis have expelled through takfir. Perhaps the most ferocious embodiment of takfiri Salafism today is Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.
So, we cannot return to the preoccupation to ideological purity that marked the 1950’s. Instead, we should recognize that there are standards of right and wrong. But we should also recognize that there is also a wide grey area between the black and the white.
I would start with the premise that all human life is sacred and that no human life is expendable. Not only that, sacredness of human life means we focus on the quality of life as well as on the fact that there is life. We can argue all we want about how much money should go into what programs. But it should be beyond debate that the role of government should be to enhance the quality of human life. Furthermore, actions that infringe on basic human dignity should be avoided.
Therefore, it should not be a matter of debate that torture is wrong. It should not be a matter of debate whether a man like Negroponte who organized death squads in Central America and may have in Iraq should be one of the people in charge of protecting our country. It should not be a matter of debate that extraordinary rendition or warrantless wiretaps is wrong. Actions and policies that seek to create wholeness are good. Grey areas in which there is no right or wrong answer should be a matter of debate. Black areas that involve the destruction of human dignity should be beyond debate.
Furthermore, the Constitution, as written today, is the best articulation that we have of these values. The key amendment is the Ninth Amendment – which states that rights are not limited to the Constitution. Therefore, at the very least, there is an implied right to privacy throughout the Constitution which states that the government has no right to interfere with personal private life or private decisions. Furthermore, we, the people, have no right to infringe on someone else’s private life or private decisions. That is why there are laws against murder, for instance; it infringes on someone else’s right to live their own life and make their private decisions.
So, I would reject the idea that we have to set 1950’s-style standards and troll-rate people out of existence who do not conform to those standards. But if we are to win elections and build as broad of a coalition as possible, we must set clear standards of right and wrong that include everybody and gives them the freedom to make their own choices.
Well, it’s not just Democrats who don’t. Americans don’t. Well, not a personal, direct, considered understanding of evil.
Moral relativism was just a symptom. The problem w/ Americans is they think morality comes from OUTSIDE. A book, a church, an imaginary friend … and when the social revolution you describe happened, that illusion took a very bad beating. Most Americans seem to have just chucked the whole idea of morality, and we are left with the culture of cheating and lying we live in now. Some people, finding that a bit lonely and scary, try on some church or cult or organization or another.
I believe people can be evil, and I think Bush, Rove and Cheney all qualify. I have no outside verification of my belief, no big spaghetti monster to back me up. I think people define values, define the rules they live under, just as they always have. It’s just far past time we should be dressing up our beliefs in halloween costumes and calling them God.
Human morality, “good”, consists of some basic parts: the understanding that we all are driven to find our own happiness, to pursue the greatest opportunities for liberty and maintaining our own lives, but our right to do those things end where another person’s life begins. The second part is compassion, a talent which comes from communication and introspection, to see the reflection of others in ourselves.
People like Bush, Cheney, Rove and Negroponte are evil because they break those rules. I’m a liberal. I have no religion, and I feel very comfortable defining them that way.
is much different for a humanist than it is for a manicheanist.
For them, evil is something that draws you off the path of personal salvation. At least, that makes up a dominant theme of what evil is.
For a humanist, evil is anything that is openly hostile to life. Normally this is restricted to human life, but as more and more people become disassociated from the act of slaughter, and the act of killing becomes totally foreign to most consumers, the humanist idea of evil spreads to animals, and eventually I suppose, to microbes.
But, almost all humans are agreed in their esteem for the value of human life. And any thing, organzation, or policy that is indifferent to human life, or that puts its selfish concerns ahead of the protection of life, is evil in the humanist’s eyes.
I am a humanist and I see Bush and Cheney as evil. I see them as evil because they are selfish and reckless and indifferent to other human lives.
And I also think that indifference to other’s quality of life can be constitute evil. But the concept is really best applied to life and death issues.
My two cents.
Via American Samizdat, I have been reading the archives of a relatively new blog called Ponerology: The Science of Evil. It proposes that a scientific definition of evil is possible, and posts examinations of the problem of evil in a political context. I particularly recommend these links from the archive there:
paramoralisms-ponerological-definition
basic-hypothesis-of-psychopathy
psychopathic-tendency-in-world
I personally believe that, for most people, problems with recognition of evil arise from fear and laziness. People will not look into the mirror and acknowledge the evil that they are personally capable of. Instead of looking into one’s own eyes and pondering the various evils that one is capable of, individuals prefer to believe “Oh, I could NEVER do something like that!”, when in fact the potential for expressed evil exists within each of us. My own epiphany in this respect came many years ago after I had watched the movie “Apocalypse Now”. I realized that regular, otherwise ordinary human beings who could “Never do something like that” could in fact be put into such weird, bizarre, mind-twisting circumstances that all things become possible – for me, and for anyone else. I physically stood in front of the mirror, and gazed into own eyes, and acknowledged my own potential. Since that time, for me, I have not been afraid to name evil when I see it. I remain cautious because it is easy to name something or someone evil, but if you are incorrect you are becoming evil itself.
An interesting definition of evil to try on for size is the concept of laziness. Many years ago I read a book by Scott Peck called “Children of the Lie” in which the author expounds on the concept of laziness as the root of evil. Indeed, if I recall correctly, he likens it to the concept of “original sin.” Laziness, to me, means the lack of will to overcome fear of evil in one’s self, the lack of will to fight evil in the world, and lack of will to do something good. For example, it is easier to let the evil world go by and say things like “The poor will always be with us” (which is one the most misunderstood and repeated bible quotes, imho) than to do something about it.
Also, the desire for iron-clad moral rules is a sign of laziness. When confronted with a complex moral dilemma, we want an easy answer, not some point on a gray-scale. This is why rule-sets like the ten commandments are so enticing to many who are too lazy to do the work necessary to analyze each situation.
As for the current diary, I concur with Eternal Hope that the problem with Democrats and with good people in power in general is that they are afraid of naming obvious evils. I believe that they are afraid of being labeled extremists. The problem is a real one, and involves a far more complex calculus than I am capable of constructing (or reconstructing) here. It is true that if two people, one on each side of an issue, claim “evil” every time there is a disagreement, the concept of evil is totally confused and the net result is that evil is, in fact, being done.
When deciding that something or someone’s action is evil, one needs very firm ground to stand upon. I do, personally, believe that we have firm ground to stand on when we name the current powers-that-be, and would hope to see more individuals stand up and name it as such.
Anyway, it’s a difficult and involved topic that deserves a diary or two from time to time, and I thank Eternal Hope for bringing it up. I am going to hotlist this one to see what everyone else has to say.
Thanks for those links. Time to go grazing in the food for thought buffet.
“People will not look into the mirror and acknowledge the evil that they are personally capable of. ”
Well said.
I disagree with this though: “I remain cautious because it is easy to name something or someone evil, but if you are incorrect you are becoming evil itself.”
You are only becoming evil itself if you name something as evil and you know it would be wrong to do it and you have an alternative to doing it. This is why you are cautious in doing it — if you are not certain and there are other alternatives, you would be wrong to do it. But if you believe it, you are not evil, just misguided. You may, however, move toward evil if, after you realize what you’ve done, you don’t work to correct the fallout from your actions.
Finally,
It makes much more sense for the good people in power to define their own moral base and explain WHY they would not have done what the other person has done. If the moral basis for the “good person’s” conscience is the same as for the listener, the listener should draw the conclusion on his own that the other person acted evilly.
Although in certain cases it certainly wouldn’t hurt to express out loud just in case the listener thinks slowly.
and therefore engaged in an evil act. This goes to the laziness part – due diligence, self examination, and all that….
EXACTLY 🙂
I’ve got a shorter explanation: Kerry said it because he really believed it. He really believes that Bush is a Good Man, because Bush comes from the same privileged background, and the only people who are bad are poor. He really believes that they just have a few minor policy differences because they do. A John Kerry presidency would probably differ very slightly from a Dubya Bush presidency. Oh, Kerry probably wouldn’t have invaded Iraq, and might not have pushed quite as hard for PATRIOT II. But in Kerry’s eyes, these probably are minor differences.
I had the opposite reaction when I read the quote. I assumed that Kerry did not believe that Bush was really a good man, but that Kerry firmly believed it was politically expedient to say so.
Most Americans have very strong sense of good and evil, though I agree with Madman and others upthread that those concepts are often crude, and frequently start with the assumption that whatever I am = good, so whatever is unlike me = evil.
I haven’t read Schmookler, but he sounds very much in the tradition of Reinhold Niebuhr, who in The Children of Light and the Children of Darkness (1944), made a similar argument about mid-twentieth century American progressives. In their optimistic assumptions about human nature, these foolish “children of light” had forgotten about evil, Niebuhr argued, and were thus easily manipulated by the “children of darkness” (like the fascists against whom we were fighting World War II), who were evil, but wise.
Perhaps once upon a time there were Americans who didn’t ground there politics in a sense of good and evil, but now is not one of these times.
Nor were the 1960s. The vision of the sixties presented above by Eternal Hope (or perhaps it’s Schmookler’s vision) is the stuff of rightwing fantasy:
There certainly were hedonists in the 1960s (there are always hedonists). But to dismiss “the 1960s movement” in this way is ridiculous. The Civil Rights Movement (the first of many sixties movements) was founded on a strong, and often explicitly Christian, sense of good and evil. The New Left, though less explicitly religious or spiritual, was also based on a profound sense of right and wrong (take a look at what is in many ways the founding document of the New Left, the Port Huron Statement for a sense of the way in which the language of this movement was imbued with a sense of right and wrong). Indeed, even when the New Left began to disintegrate into violence and factionalism in the late 1960s and early 1970s, lacking a sense of good and evil was not one of its faults. Groups like the Black Panthers and the Weather Underground were anything but moral relativists. Mainstream liberalism, too, was imbued with a sense of good and evil. We wouldn’t have gotten into the morass of Vietnam if liberal anticommunists like those in the JFK and LBJ administration lacked such a sense. (Of course, one of the other problems with the pocket history of the Sixties quoted above is that it manages to entirely confound liberalism with the New Left, and both of these political tendencies with the counterculture. There is a very distinct politics to this particular muddling of our recent past.)
Much of Schmookler’s argument appears to be yet another crusade against relativism, which is one of the favorite whipping horses in American cultural politics. There are of course many kinds of relativism: epistemological relativism, cultural relativism, ethical relativism, and so forth. Most people in our society feel more or less comfortable with one or another of these often different tendencies. But usually it’s moral relativism that is the concern of political rants. And full blown moral relativism — there is no such thing as good and evil — is, for better or for worse, a relatively rare bird in the American political woods. Luckily, it’s easy to spot some other form of relativism and fudge the difference.
Never underestimate the durability, and flexibility, of arguments against relativism. For example, Straussians are obsessed with relativism. It lies at the heart of Leo Strauss’s critique of modernity (see, for example, Chapter II of Natural Right and History). But Shadia Drury, in many ways the best known critic of the Straussians, whose books are the basis of nearly every hostile article written about Straussianism in the general interest media, accuses the Straussians themselves of — guess what? — a form of moral relativism.
In fact, serious theodicy is hard work. And it’s all too easy to accuse someone of not having a concept of evil at all, simply because they don’t have a very developed or consistent concept of evil. Take this diary, for example. Schmookler and EH say that it’s “hilarious” that John Kerry would say that “Bush is basically a good man. We just have different ideas of running things.” But a few paragraphs later, EH declares “At this point in time, I would point out that it is not people who are evil; it is a matter of forces of good and evil.” So if you deny that there are evil people, what’s “hilarious” about Kerry’s refusal to call Bush “evil”?
Finally, I think this diary, at least in its title, makes one of the most common mistakes among what passes for the left in America today. It starts with the assumption that Democrats lack spine. If Democrats lacked spine, they would join the majority of the public in calling for an end to the Iraq War. The Democrats are not lily-livered progressives. They are convinced, and emboldened, moderate conservatives, who, understanding that much of their base stands to their left, tend to cloak their beliefs in the language of political necessity.
A couple of comments:
…”children of darkness” (like the fascists against whom we were fighting World War II), who were evil, but wise.
I’d change that to “evil, but clever.” There’s a world of difference between cleverness and wisdom.
But a few paragraphs later, EH declares “At this point in time, I would point out that it is not people who are evil; it is a matter of forces of good and evil.” So if you deny that there are evil people, what’s “hilarious” about Kerry’s refusal to call Bush “evil”?
This is a perfect example of the trouble I have with the words “good and evil.” People are what they are, a bag of instincts and training on legs. They react wisely (in sustainable, life-enhancing, just ways) or foolishly to the world around them. Labeling anyone “good” or “evil” is just setting up the pieces for a battle royal among those with muddled thinking, fired up by those who would manipulate situations to their own advantage.
You might call it “cleverness,” KP, but Reinhold Niebuhr called it “wisdom” throughout his book. For example the final paragraph of Chapter 1 of The Children of Light and the Children of Darkness reads as follows:
Of course, this idea does not originate with Niebuhr. He borrows it (along with the title of his book) from Luke 16:1-8, often known as the Parable of the Unjust Steward, which concludes with Jesus telling his disciples,
yes, but the greek from which the KJV Bible is tranlsated uses the word “phronimos” which is defined as “prudent, sensible, practically wise”, and carries connotations of wicked cleverness, as opposed to “sophos”, which is the more positive type of “wisdom”. So, although I know nothing of the work that you cite, I can’t imagine that the author did not understand the distinction in the earlier greek version of the text, and also that it did not translate well into KJV english.
But, nonetheless, he went with the KJV’s wisdom.
One could write a book about the unintended consequences of the KJV’s translation choices…
Re: Why the Democrats have no spine — no concept ( / )
While I don’t agree with your analysis, this was a great post because of the comments it started. Very Nice.
But (doesn’t it seem like there’s always a but), I want to made a couple of rambles about the Sixties and about good and evil.
Your definition of “If it feels good do it” as the mantra of the Sixties is shallow but it’s not your fault. That little saying is the commericalization of the Sixties, the way that corporate America defined and that absorbed hippiedom into consumerism. (I’m of the age to have lived through this stuff).
The real Sixties movement that was started by people who had been radicalized by the Civil Rights movement of the late Fifties and early Sixties and was about self-determination and a further expansion of how Americans defined who would be allowed to participate in making decisions about the direction of the country. The New Left died after the ’68 Democratic Convention and the Chicago Police Riot and was replaced by hippies and Yippies who were into themselves not a better society. Hippies were great consumers; a movement to change our country was co-opted into just another lifestyle to market.
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Good and Evil. The only things really fun to talk about.
Think about this. Does any human being ever set out to do something evil, or do they think that their action will bring about some good? For themselves or for others? (This is not moral relativism. Moral relativism states that there are only subjective criteria for judging a decision or action as good or evil. The simplest example of this is, for example, heroin use. The moral relativist would say, feeling good is what I want therefore it’s good that I inject myself.)
If no one sets out to do something that will bring about an evil result, then why is there evil in the world? Because people are ignorant: Not ignorant because they don’t agree with me, ignorant because they don’t know how to define what is good for themselves and for others, ignorant because they don’t know how to measure the consequences of their desires and thoughts and actions. The heroin user’s reductionistic notion of what is good leads to consequences of illness, crime, and death.
When is a person a criminal? Is she a criminal only after she commits a crime, or was she born a criminal?
The flawed notion of original sin has corrupted all of our thinking about evil. Aristotle said that the human capacity for language was not simply the ability to make sounds, but the capacity to define good and evil. In the Garden of Eden the Serpent convinced Eve to eat from the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Why would the author of Genesis want to argue that knowledge of Good and Evil was in itself the source of evil? Is Eve evil because she wanted to define good and evil, that is, she wanted to be human? I say not only no, but hell no. The Garden of Eden makes no sense to me except as a cop out to explain the existence of evil in a world that God created and pronounced good. So Genesis blamed Eve. Maybe God just wasn’t that good at universe creating. Maybe ours is the first one God cranked out. Maybe human beings created in God’s image don’t always know what they’re doing.
This makes sense to me. When we act, we act to bring about some good thing. When the results of our actions bring about something evil, the problem is that we were wrong about the actual goodness we sought or we were incompetent with respect to the means with which we sought to accomplish that good end.
Bush isn’t evil. He’s incompetent and arrogant and his thorough-going ignorance has unleashed a s**tload of evil into the world. Good and evil are evaluations that human beings make about decisions and actions and their consequences. It’s only the ignorant (like the Right in America) who want to make those definitions of good and evil not about actions but about human beings. If good and evil can be made attributes not of actions but of human beings, then whatever a person who has been defined as good does is, because of that, good.
Nazi-like Republicans=Good. Anybody else=Evil. Nice doctrine, huh?
“The unexamined life is not worth living.” Socrates “Huh?” Dubya
by phronesis (sww92498@yahoo.com) on soon
I generally have trouble with the concept of “good versus evil” for reasons that BooMan in his comment put his finger on exactly: the terms are used as part of a manichaean worldview where the plotline involves me and my salvation and everything else is inconsequential (like the environment) or evil (like people that disagree with my theology).
I liked this idea very much:
On the one side are forces that care for life and work to create and maintain life-serving structures. On the other side are forces that tear such structures apart.
I guess you can call that good versus evil, but it’s not the way most Americans define the words, so my gut reaction (as someone from a scientific background, where precision in definition is a virtue) has been that calling the italicized phrases above “good versus evil” tends to cloud the discussion. But perhaps it offers a means of finding common ground with people from more traditional religious worldviews than mine.
The italicized approach is what I’ve called in other diaries “wise versus foolish” as an alternative to “good versus evil.”
What I like about basing a worldview around the phrases I’ve highlighted is that you can objectively monitor your progress in many areas: Are disease rates increasing or decreasing? Is the environment being depleted or used sustainably? Is the crime rate rising or falling? Are children better educated or not? Is the income gap widening or not?
And that takes big parts of the discussion off the table – there is a consensus that reducing rates of cholera is a good thing, for example, no matter how you define God.
Once you’ve achieved a consensus that you’re going to be reality-driven, then you can approach touchier issues, like what is the carrying capacity of the planet earth for human beings, and how are we going to get to that number.
This was how US politics generally worked in the period 1950-75, before the manicheists took over the Republican party. It’s why you can have Richard Nixon, for all his faults, founding the EPA and signing environmental protection legislation (of course, he also hoped to use it to deflect criticism from his other policies, but that’s another discussion).
The last 30 years of US history provide demonstrable proof that manichaeism is not a life-enhancing worldview. There are other episodes in world history where such thought has been ascendant; they tend to have tragic, bloody endings: Crusades, Yugoslavia, the Reformation and Counter-Reformation, the Inquisition.
Going down the slippery slope from “righteous behavior” to “self-righteous behavior” (i.e. where you’ve got the inside track on what God personally wants, facts be damned), is the root of all evil, if I have to use that word. It certainly is the root of much tragic foolishness.
Someday I might get off my ass and look up “Manichaean”. All I remember about it was that it was considered a christian heresy . Clearly you and BooMan are using it in another context. Or maybe you’ll tell me and I won’t have to do any work.
I’ve always considered evil to be directly tied to, for lack of a better word, conscience.
Conscience, and the development of conscience, are not popular topics these days because too many religions have tried to impose their values on people’s consciences, but I still use the terms. Just not in a religious sense.
What is conscience, how is conscience formed and can and should an outside social structure such as a church or simply community norms affect conscience are, unfortunately, topics that seem to have become taboo among liberals. That’s unfortunate.
To me you develop a conscience by becoming conscious of and accepting certain norms as to what is wise behavior that is good for you and for all of society versus foolish behavior that harms yourself and/or the rest of society. An intentional act against these norms, when such action could be avoided, is evil.
I’m not sure that you and I differ in how we look at the world, but there is a difference to me between the physical, measurable results on the world of evil actions and being able to articulate why the actions of a specific person is evil.
To me you develop a conscience by becoming conscious of and accepting certain norms as to what is wise behavior that is good for you and for all of society versus foolish behavior that harms yourself and/or the rest of society. An intentional act against these norms, when such action could be avoided, is evil.
From the standpoint of the ethical philosophy with which I am familiar, this is a problematic paragraph. “Certain norms” is something that would have to be all the way unpacked, for starters. Leaving it loose and dense like that allows interpretations that are completely arbitrary. The act of making the distinction regarding which norms to categorize as “wise” and which as “foolish” is, at least in part and at least according to this particular structure, a function of either conscience or simple acceptance from some outside agency. Simple acceptance is problematic for reasons I hope are obvious. The possibility of using the conscience to determine the kinds of judgments which lead to the development of the conscience is also, I would think, a clear kind of chicken-and-egg problem, well before you even get to the specific moral questions to be evaluated.
Beyond that, just in the structural sense, making a solid and non-subjective argument about what “harms yourself and/or the rest of society” is extraordinarily difficult to do. (Some people would argue it’s impossible, but I am still straddling that particular fence; imo maybe it’s possible, maybe not.)
Another big pitfall with this particular methodology, this one more substantive (in the philosophical sense of the term), is the frequency with which one will probably wind up with a shallow moral structure that mostly just reflects back whatever the morality of the person’s larger cultural context is. For example, if one uses “certain norms” which one encounters in one’s culture to develop one’s conscience, then it’s very easy to develop a conscience (and thus a moral structure) that views homosexuality as “evil” because it is an “intentional act against ‘these’ norms” regarding “what is wise behavior that is good for you and for all of society”, and thus endorses homophobia rather than denounces it. Any ‘good’ (meant in the subjective, my-opinion sense) moral methodology should prevent that from happening.
Of course, any moral inquiry that goes below the surface discovers very quickly that just because something has been normalized doesn’t make it “right”, and just because something is unusual or not well accepted by the larger social group doesn’t make it “wrong”, but ime very few people bother to delve into these kinds of questions past the periphery. Most people do not seem to want to think very specifically and very consistently about why a given thing may be right or wrong; they seem to only want to believe that “sound” moral judgments reflect whatever their personal beliefs are.
Yep. That’s why developing your conscience is such a difficult thing. It requires you to delve into these kinds of questions. It requires you to go beyond your own personal experience. It requires you to be constantly re-evaluating the “truths” that you’ve been living with.
That’s why I think that the whole development of conscience idea is much deeper and more interesting than what is evil.
Whether a person is evil depends on whether that person is inflicting pain intentionally in violation of what he knows to be right or not. Some people inflict a lot of pain unintentionally. Are they evil? Maybe they just have an undeveloped conscience? Is intentionally not developing your conscience evil? We could argue forever. And in the end all we would prove is that we are librul eleeetes who talk in big words and don’t live in the real world.
I’m sure I could try to develop a better construct but frankly I just don’t care enough about philosophical matters to spend the time. I do suspect that these types of conversations just divert the liberal elite from greater tasks.
Meh. I think the whole “liberal elite” thing is mostly a crock of shit concocted by conservatives who don’t like to think about complex things. I mean, of course obnoxious academic liberals exist, just like obnoxious academic conservatives exist, but that “elite” categorization is mostly just crap.
And we could probably not have more divergent views regarding your final opinion. I’m a philosopher. That’s my thing. Ethics, specifically. I don’t think it’s a waste of time, and certainly not a diversion from some essential “greater task”. Doing ethical theory is one of the best things I can do with my time, and it’s one of the best ways I can contribute to the sort of political change I’d like to see in the world, but I think it’d be pretty fucked up for me to make proscriptions for others about that, so I don’t. Each to each and all that.
I personally believe that theory contributes far more to shaping reality than most non-theory-heads even begin to realize, but since it doesn’t interest you past the surface I certainly won’t engage you in the subject any further.
I didn’t mean to offend you, but I was being truthful. I find this kind of talk engaging on a fairly superficial level and then I get bored. And clearly you desire a more in depth conversation that I don’t feel I can give you — emotionally or practically.
I certainly think there is a place in the world for philosophers. I’ve just been pissed at Socrates since law school. I’ll try not to take it out on you!
Oh, you didn’t offend me, lol. I get that your disdain for the discipline is genuine, and I completely understand that that does not translate into any essential statement of worth on the discipline itself. We modern philosophers are quite accustomed to our work being undervalued/considered uninteresting by the general society, particularly here in the US.
Fwiw, I’m not a big fan of the ancient Greeks either, although it’s Aristotle who usually gives me a major case of the red-ass. 🙂
Disdain …
no
my own laziness …
you bet 😉
Was an early Christian heresy that made all the black-and-white dichotomies we see in some protestant denominations today:
The universe is the stage for a battle between God and Satan, with light and spirit = good; dark and matter = evil. It’s used loosely for any theology that sees the world in terms of black and white, damned and saved, with no grays, no need to preserve the environment, no room for discussion, etc.
The early church rejected this idea because it was not clear in it that God/Jesus was already victorious over evil, and because they were coming from a Jewish tradition that saw the created universe as good, made by a loving God. Manichaeism has roots back in Persian thought of the immediate pre-Christian era.
I’m glad I know my heresies. Thanks for the info.
a behavior issue, than the religious undertones of ‘good and evil’. If we look at it as good or bad behavior it is more acceptable than labeling someone as good or evil. If one does their best to behave well, within the acceptable norms, as in the golden rule..Do unto others..the then bad behavior is more recognizable by most and would be agreed as such. But when someone or something is immediately tagged as good or evil the grey areas start to overlap and we start to make excuses with the buts.
I think it is when we start getting emotional about the behaviors of others (with anger, love, fear etc.,) our clear eyes get cloudy.
An example:
The other day 2 church people came knocking at my door and I cannot stand that type of uninvited visit. So I opened my door and first asked them if this was a church thing- they said yes, I then asked are you Bush supporters? They said why, yes, with big smiles on their faces. So I then said ‘I don’t allow sinners into my home’ and slammed the door in their faces.
I felt good and justified and proud of myself because I knew what I was connecting, for about two minutes. Then I started beating up on myself at my bad behavior. I am seldom rude. Was it evil what I did. Of course not although those 2 church people are probably praying for my ‘evil’ soul LOL!, but my behavior was bad.
I agree with you that it is much more likely that a behavior of a person is bad than that the person is evil. However, I don’t believe that this is ALWAYS the case. One need not think very hard to pick out an obviously evil man from the history of the 20th century. In cases where an individual repeatedly, with forethought, produces actions which can nearly universally be defined as bad, what other conclusion can one come to?
Also, was your behavior really all that bad? People who have been recognized as moral authorities throughout history have not condemned righteous anger, in fact, many have encouraged it or applied it very carefully. Such anger is easily second-guessed and regretted, but sometimes, I believe, there is no other way to make a point. As a matter of fact, in my own person to person dealings with right-wingers, I have had much better effect when expressing some rage against their dearly held principles than with calm rational explanations. Many of them understand rage, but do not understand reason. So — fight fire with fire? — maybe, sometimes, this is the only effective way. If these ladies are praying for you, then you have had an effect on them.
I would propose that your actions were righteous, and perhaps your self-satisfaction is the only ‘sin’ here. At least, though, that ‘sin’ is personal to you, and not harmful to anyone else. That you caught yourself feeling self-satisfied and corrected it speaks to your inherent goodness, and that, indeed, your ‘thought-sin’ was a small blip in the behavior of an otherwise very good person.
I probably would have done what what you did and I would have felt guilty about it too. Because? Because I’ve been brought up with a certain standard of what is considered polite behaviour and knowing that I intentionally ignored it would make me feel guilty. And I then would go through all the other choices I could have made. Including in my fantasy, making these people see the light about Bush and making my own convert.
But you know what … I am very fallible. So I would probably have slammed the door in their face without even asking about Bush. Sometimes we fail:)
Were you evil in that moment? Only you know. But, even if you were — there ARE different levels of evilness. This one would HAVE to be real low on the list.
I figured they could relate to the word ‘sinner’ and would at least wonder why I called them that.
The thing is, I would never presume to knock on someone’s door unless I was selling girl scout cookies, no, wait that was back in the 1950s when it was a safe thing to do.
I find most discussions of “good and evil” to be a binary way of looking at a world that is much more complex. As Alexander Solzhenitsyn writes in The Gulag Archipelago,
If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?
Much more helpful to me is the concept of moral development that Kohlberg identified. Rather than write a lengthy comment about it all, I’d just say that what concerns me is that we, as a culture, seem to be moving backwards through this developmental process to the point that the religious fundamentalists, who operate from the first stage of depending soley on some “divinely inspired truth” are beginning to define good and evil in such a binary way.
Excellent diary. Unfortunately, these ideas have little traction among leftie elites, who generally really have been relativized and humanized half to death. I encourage you to keep this discussion going as strongly as you can.
On a related note, yesterday on C-CPAN there was a speech by a guy named Rabbi Michael Lerner. I didn’t see it, but my wife was telling me about it. He’s the author of a book called The Left Hand of God. He has created an organization at spiritualprogressives.org called The Network of Spritual Progressives, a Project of the Tikkun Community.
His central theme is that there is a spiritual vacuum in the United States, and the rightwingers have monopolized the field. But they have corrupted spirituality, preaching a message of hate instead of love. Lerner believes that to take back power, and to work justice, progressives need to unite around a spiritually based message of love.
To do that, it seems to me as a leftie Catholic, one has to believe in objective truth, believe in a real distinction between good and evil, and to strive every day to work for the good and to overcome evil with love.
Gandhi threw the British Empire out of India with non-violent love. Martin Luther King turned American upside down with non-violent love. It’s terrible, but there doesn’t seem to be a single Democratic leader who has a unifying message. We need to pray for one.
just as the Religious Reich has co-opted the framing of “pro-choice” as being equivalent to “pro-abortion”, so too have they and their allies in the Republican Party co-opted the concepts of “good” and “evil” as being religious, specifically Christian, concepts. And that’s why the Democratic Party is leery of talking about the subject.
Maybe it’s time to point out the “evil” in many of the Bush misAdministration’s policies: the response to Katrina, the current budget that slashes the safety net for the poor and elderly, the torture of innocent detainees, the deterioration of our personal liberties. Far more “evil” than getting a blow job in the Oval Office, or even far more evil than lying about it — the lie ultimately harmed only Clinton’s family, whereas the actions of the Bush misAdministration have harmed the entire country and our standing in the world.
Excellent point. More evil has been unleashed upon the world in the name of God (and you can pick whatever name of God you want to use) than from any other source.
The only human prayer should be: “God, deliver me from true believers.”
True believers, whether Christian, Jew, Muslim, Shinto, Hindu, etc., etc. make an idol of their fervor and want to kill or convert all who don’t share their delerium. These types of fundamentalists worship their own emotional attachment. Can we say that the Religious Right in America even comes close to following in the footsteps of a Gallilean carpenter’s son who instructed his followers to own nothing and to oppose the reality of the Roman Empire with the reality of the Kingdom of God? I don’t think so.
Just for discussion purposes, I’d like to throw out the possibility of another approach.
Given that there is a strong correlation between identifying evil and escalating fear – I wonder if this is a good strategy. I think a lot of what’s gotten us in this mess is the escalation of fear by the Republicans.
So, what if we focused on spreading hope?! And I don’t mean the kind of hope that rests on unending consumerism. I mean a real “heart hope.”
I thought about this when reading the following quote from Eric Hoffer:
Those who would transform a nation or the world cannot do so by breeding and captaining discontent or by demonstrating the reasonableness and desirability of the intended changes or by coercing people into a new way of life. They must know how to kindle and fan an extravagant hope.
liberals and they support many of these policies.
Regarding moral relativism, a conversational ploy that I’ve used, with seemingly good effect, goes like this:
Me: “Blah, blah…” (A statement regarding right and wrong).
Relativist: “You can’t say what is right or wrong, because it all depends on your culture [or politics, or class, or…].”
Me: “You aren’t saying there’s something wrong with taking a moral stand, are you?”
Relativist: “…” (telling moment of silence, visible amusement among listeners, change of topic).
The is nothing fresh about the idea behind this, of course, but as a verbal maneuver, it does tend to deflate those who argue with passion against arguing with passion, or pass judgment against the passing of judgment.
I’m not much for arguments framed around the concepts of “good and evil” or “right and wrong”, but neither am I of the “moral relativist” sort, because I don’t find the concept of morality itself particularly useful except when one is seeking to legitimize one behavior over another in defense of some sort of arbitrary reasoning.
I’m a “cause and effect” sort of person, and out of that arises whatever ethical consciousness I might have developed in life, which consciousness by and large determines my behavior and demeanor.
Speaking about the concept of evil, in the context of how it seems to be understood generally, I have to say that, as far as the lack of spine amongst the Democrats in congress, I don’t think it’s that they don’t believe in evil or think it really exists in it’s own right so much as they just think it can’t really get it’s claws into them personally.
I think the Repubs feel pretty much the same way generally, but they find an actual benefit in evil in that they see the “threat of evil” as a convenient psy-ops tool to use against the public psyche in order to elicit support for them and their insane aggressive agenda.
I think Dems generally don’t exploit “evil” as much or as well as the Repubs do for their own benefit.