I just went through a divorce, so I am the last person to ask about what it takes to have a happy relationship. A new study, however, claims to have divined the hearts of women. Can a survey provide answers to the age-old question, “What do women want?”
If, as Tolstoy said, happy families are all alike, is there a formula for happy marriages, too?
Yes, say two University of Virginia sociologists who found that married women are happiest with a sensitive guy who earns most of the family’s money. Women are also willing to take on more housework if they feel their husbands pay attention to them, and they feel the arrangement is “fair,” if not equal.
“On average, an American wife is happiest when her husband combines elements of the new and the old,” said Bradford Wilcox, a study co-author who is also a resident scholar at the Institute for American values, which promotes traditional marriage. “Having a good breadwinner and sharing a strong commitment to lifelong marriage — the old model if you will — is still important.”
That flies in the face of many other studies that find the best marriages are “companionate” in which spouses equally share tasks like child care and earning an income.
The debate over the ideal marital relationship is being played out against growing concerns about the health of marriage in America, with a stubbornly persistent divorce rate of 43 percent and rising numbers of couples who live together without planning to marry. The federal government included $100 million in programs to promote marriage when it renewed welfare reform legislation in its last session.
I don’t see anything in there about my “I blog, you love me anyway” strategy. I might have to scrap that. But seriously, some of this stuff is a little frightening for us guys.
Women with more traditional views of marriage, whose husbands were the main breadwinners, tended to be happier than women with more “progressive” views and those who worked outside the home, they said. That led the authors to speculate the more traditional wives had lower expectations of their husbands’ contributions at home.
Are all you progressive women really unhappy nags? That can’t be true. Who paid for this survey?
A lot of people are criticizing the study because the results encourage women to lessen their expectations in order to have happier marriages. Of course, results of surveys are just raw data. But one critic says this:
Coontz said it would also be a recipe for later divorce, because women tend to become less satisfied with marriage as time goes on, while men become more contented.
Is that true? Kinda goes against the stereotype of the 40-something man. But, I’m telling you, I know nothing.
I mean, is this woman happy?
Stephanie Sergiou of West Orange said she doesn’t mind if she does 80 percent of the work at home and her husband isn’t always as sensitive as she would like.
“He’s a good man,” she shrugged. “If he doesn’t want to listen to me, I just tell him anyway.”
Maybe she is married to a blogger. Or maybe this blogger hasn’t got a clue.
… chocolate shoes.
Okay, fine! We don’t all want that. I’m not trying to sterotype anyone, just sayin’…
We want someone who just knows what we want. Is that asking too much?
why don’t you just shoot me right now?
Don’t panic. What do I know? I’ve never wanted to be married particularly.
Which raises teh interesting question — do you want to know what married women want or do you just want to know what women want?
I want to know what you don’t want now but will want later.
and there are so many paths I could take with that statement … π
well I don’t want someone who assumes he knows what I will want later
but its always so much easier to know what we don’t want — isn’t it?
I want to know what you don’t want now but will want later.
But, men are supposed to know that!
OK, I’ll be serious now. Women want (at least I want) a man who doesn’t cling to me, or expect to be waited on hand and foot. A man who is not a wimp. A man who realizes that I have a brain and respects me for my intelligence and does not try to boss me around. A man who realizes that I need to do things on my own and who also does things on his own. That makes the time together more special. A man who will leave me alone when I am into something (reading/writing/research or outdoorsy stuff). A man who is not intimidated by a woman. Guess you could say respecting each other’s interests, likes and dislikes.
IMO, being married is not just who does what, ie, who does housework and who makes the bucks.
I guess I’m wierd.
sex. Hopefully that’s reassuring.
π
I think they got that half right. Women with a more traditional view of marriage have lower expectations for marriage, not just for division of household chores.
I haven’t got a clue about other people, but in a marriage I want to be listened to, respected, valued. I don’t want secrets. I don’t want too much togetherness or I feel smothered. I want autonomy. I want someone who deals with stress well, and is able to laugh at himself. And I want someone who makes me laugh but knows when to be serious.
A tall order, I know. But, damn it, I’m worth it!
You just had to go and post this today ;^P
We want a friend first
Because a friend understands when you need to regroup, when you need to stand and rage, when you need to be weak and vulnerable without sacrificing your self, listens – or let’s us hang with friends that listen without jealousy.
Everything else falls in place if you are the friend we can talk to at 2 am…
I married the man that listened to me call in tears at 2 am after my first marriage fell apart, the one that shows up at my ‘required social functions’ at work to support me, the one that let’s me rage at Bushco, and so much more…he will always be my friend first…
Peace be with you Booman, my friend
The email is still coming at you this evening
When I first read your comment “this is a little scary to us guys”, I was filled with a wave of compassion. Of course, people asking for change is scary.
The second thing I thought was, “Well, we women have been scared as hell for years. A little equity might not hurt.” — as diaried elsewhere by Caliliberal, and others responding in her diary.
We were scared as hell we’d have to get married if we got pregnant. Scared we’d be beaten, humiliated, yelled at, prevented from getting a job if we wanted one. Scared he woudln’t earn enough money. Scared he’d sleep around (and give us some disease). Scared he’d leave us for a younger woman. Scared we’d get fired for “not putting career front and center, but getting (ewww) married and wanting kids”.
And so forth.
Now — on the one hand, I do get your fear. On the other, I think some of the gender diff whining going on now is just — silly. We’re different, we’re always going to be different. Can’t we celebrate that vs trying to erase it? (Erasing will fail anyway.)
I don’t think all us progressive women are unhappy nags. I think we’re fascinating, and quite happy to be with a decent man. We’ve probably dated (or married, sigh), the knuckle-dragging type, and really appreciate just a regular decent guy.
I think that society is changing around us — and that forces marriage to be different. At least one other country has serial marriage as the norm, and it’s OK to re-marry a former partner at some point.
Who among us is taking classes telling us how to be a mate, how to pick a mate, before we set out to do it? I think we’re adrift in a brand new world w/out compasses, and just trying our best.
Whew. 17 different subjects, one little post.
would lead to making a better choice of partner, and thus produce a lower divorce rate.
I agree that some people, both men and ladies, seem torn between old and new. They want to choose a marriage partner based on criteria that would be more appropriate if their parents were arranging a marriage for them, but then they will complain because there was no romance.
Because the person they felt they were in love with was dismissed early in the courtship because they did not meet these arranged marriage criteria.
There is an old saying, don’t marry the one you think you can live with. Marry the one you know you can’t live without.
It is good advice.
The couple that laughs together and cooks together …
My theory anyway.
I think the whole question is assbackwards to begin with. Mostly because I can’t think of “what do I want?” because it changes and is so dynamic and depnds on each situation…
I’m a complex, diverse, strange soul with ecletic tastes, thoughts and needs. So I can put it in a box for you or even someone who has known me for almost 20 years.
But… if I ask MYSELF “what do I want to bring to a relationship – TODAY, this moment, this issue?” well then… it can possibly be a REASONABLE explanation that TWO people can work with π
But if you must… I want the guy to know that yeah I love hockey, I like to watch Bruce Lee flicks while bogarting a big fattie and end the night with sleepy time spooning up sex and then I’ll roll over and curl up with a good book.
But… tomorrow, I might be pouty and moody and need some TLC that makes me feel more like a little girl.
But later on I might want to debate you in a heated discussion about … cribbage rules and why do they also seems to change with the amount of Calypso coolers you make.
And I want you to not get mad or bitchy about the fact that I really don’t know what I want because the moment I decide I know what I want is the moment I decide that I want to “grow” and change.
And… I really do like gifts and chocolates… even if sometimes I treat you as if you’re trying to buy me off with goodies cause I do nothing but confuse the hell out of you all the time.
I also want you to know that sometimes I’ll come purring up to you and bring you a beer whiel you watch the game… just don’t let me think you EXPECT it next time or ask me to do it… becaus then, being a Scorpio, next game I’ll stand in front of the tv and ask you if you think we should buy new drapes. I won’t let it go either. I continue to pace through the rooom during the game. Maybe even make a phone call to YOUR mother and tell her “Jim wants to talk to you”.
I want you to know I don’t mean to be spiteful or naggy and I truly don’t mean to be or enjoy doing the above things… but if I bottle it up I know I will turn into a hagula towards somebody else who I might not be able to talk with like I can’t talk with you.
And other times I need you to just.. shut the fuck up and don’t bother me because I have no idea what you as a man want… today π
That is so hilarious.
It also just scared the crap out of me. Especially that part where you called my mother.
I’m going to print this out and hang it on my bedroom wall. It sounds so damn much like me and I thought I was the only one who was that schizophrenic!
Right about now BooMan’s head must be exploding.
make sure to save it and nominate it for best comment in the 2006 Koufax Awards.
worrying about “what women want”, when you find that potential significant other, ask her (or him, depending on your orientation), “What do you want?” and listen to the answer. (This applies to more than just you, Boo — I’m not picturing you in a “Brokeback Mountain” remake… π )
I think what most people want is a partnership…working together for the good of the community (in this case, the family community). And I think that’s where the Religious Reich gets stuck — they’re so used to thinking male dominant/woman submissive that they can’t imagine two men or two women being able to have any kind of family relationship. But it’s not about dominant/submissive — it’s about skills and talents, and using them rather than trying to be something you’re not.
Respect, love, friendship, understanding. I want someone who ‘gets’ me, even if I fully don’t. (Whoops, there’s my damn conundrum.) Actually no, not a conundrum. Someone who understands I am constantly growing and learning and reevaluating myself. Someone who wants to share that with me. Open and honest, always and in all ways.
I am in the ‘first year after the divorce’ phase still. But I have rediscovered who I am. My first marriage stole that from me and I became who others wanted me to be. Never again. That said, my ex-husband and I are now back to being the best of friends that we once were. We are open about absolutely everything nowadays. Yes, everything. We just couldn’t do it and remain married. There were personal issues and differences that we just couldn’t resolve as a married couple, but we can do that now. Some people are just not compatible, or perhaps they grow apart instead of together. I’m still not sure…
Any tips on rediscovering who you are? Or discovering for the first time?
And I might add to my first entry: I don’t really know what I want in a marriage, but I know when I DON’T have it. π
Good point SN, you know when you don’t have it.
As for tips on discovering yourself, oh boy. I don’t really think I’ve known my true self til now, except for perhaps a brief point when I was young and innocent. π I’ve been through traumatic past events that were affecting me years later, had recognized that and worked through that. With my ex- who was so supportive at the time, and a damn good counselor, who I saw for about 3 years. My first marriage was a reenactment of my childhood, i.e. pleasing my parents (i.e. Mom), being the honors kid in high school and college while doing more than dabbling in drink and drugs and sex, always trying to appear ‘prim and proper’ to the outside world. My parents always had their heads in the sand, I will never do that. It really didn’t fit, ya know? Once I was able to ‘confront’ my mom and allow myself to let her see me as I really am, I was able to do that with the husband too. Then the divorce, as scary as it was, showed me I was able to get on on my own and be my own person, not tied to anyone’s expectations other than my own. My childhood upbringing was a big factor to come to terms with. But somehow I did. Thankfully. I really feel comfortable in my own skin now, and I don’t think I have ever truly felt that before. Hugs to you, just cuz. π
How’s that for a summary, good grief! Email me anytime. Like I said, open and honest always. These internets have actually done wonders for me…
Comfortable in my own skin…that’s what I’m going for. I don’t have anything that interesting in my childhood that I can point to and say “Aha! that’s why I’m so unhappy and restless all the time.” I always just feel like I’m supposed to be living a different life. It’s weird.
I got married really young because I didn’t have anywhere else to go, had kids, and then spent 10+ years mired in depression. I feel like I stopped growing at 19. Christ, I’m 46 and on marriage number 2, you think I’d have figured out at least SOMETHING about who I am! :0)
the journey be the thing — and not worry about arriving?
(at some mysterious goal where you know who you are?)
Here’s the sum total of my knowledge on the subject: you can spend a lifetime learning about different people through multiple relationships; or an entire lifetime learning as much as you can about one.
Exactly. I’d like to know how these so-called researchers know how “happy” their subjects are. One thing I’ve found is that how happy people say they are has absolutely no relation to their behavior or outcomes, or to the surprises in store when they get especially drunk, drugged, anxious, or moody.
IOW, it’s just another vacuous, meaningless question. JS Mill asked whether it’s better to be a discontented Socrates or a contented pig. That’s the heart of the matter, and “social scientists” can do a million more studies and not move a nanometer closer to an answer that’s worth a damn. Boo wants somebody to predict the future. He also knows nobody can. Carry on.
Or perhaps they’re less likely to admit that they’re unhappy. After all, they’re Living The American Dream. What do they have to be unhappy about? The rest of the results seem similarly ambiguous when examined closely. And to make things even stranger:
How is it that this one study’s produced completely opposite results from numerous other ones? Maybe this has something to do with it:
Ah. Now the bells start ringing. We techies get hit with studies at least once a month showing that this or that or the other thing is the best thing ever. And you know what we’ve found? The study almost always winds up favouring the product or perspective of the company that commissioned it. What a coincidence, eh? I’d love to be on the peer review board for this steaming pile of shit, just so I could tear into it with the rotary saw of scholarly criticism. Alas, earwax.
yeah, I’m not sure how much my snark came through. But there are real issues raised in the article.
Oh yes, definitely. Cultural expectations, from both directions. (What other people expect of you and what you expect of other people) The general difficulty of living inside someone else’s skin, as one of my favourite authors put it. The steady changing of gender roles. The desperation of some groups and individuals to justify traditional arrangements.
But the study itself is total garbage. The snark came through, but I just felt it was worth highlighting that this doesn’t even look anything like good science. It’s pure PR trash.
Er……doesn’t it all begin with understanding what you yourself want? How can you make judgments about someone else’s needs if you haven’t a clue about your own?
I can’t think of anything more difficult than trying to figure out what my wife wants and/or needs. What I can do is figure out how much I want to please her and then try to do that in my own way, in my own words and in my own style. She’s smart enough, strong enough, and self-sufficient enough to get the things she wants in her own way. She got herself through medical school and years of residency. There’s pretty much nothing I could do to equal that extended misery.
After 36 years together, I suppose I know her pretty well. Then, too, she knows me pretty damn well herself. I could no more put our longevity down to a recipe than I could make Shrub disappear just by wishing really, really hard.
It’s been different every decade. What worked in 1970 won’t necessarily work in 2006, and I couldn’t plan it out even if I wanted to.
The husband and I did the vulcan mind-meld about 5 years ago, so things click on pretty well. We figure it won’t be long until we won’t need to talk at all, just tilt our eyebrows slightly in the general direction of the other.
What do I long for, though? A life of my own, where I’m not pulled between the desperate needs of aging parents and special needs children. Where I could just pick up the keys and go somewhere if I chose. Where each stolen moment for myself didn’t come at a cost. A life where I could let loose and not have to be all-responsible all the time.
That would be bliss.
I can’t give you that – I’m pretty sure nobody can give us that…, but I’ll share a maple bar with you instead if you’d like π
And share the fact that I could so relate…
um… if you ever do get those precious moments… will you come pick me up, too? :
I like maple. Want to run away with me to Vermont?
Alas, no man can take away such responsibilities. It’s must be difficult to even find suitable suurogates that can give you a temporary reprieve.
True enough! I wouldn’t expect my husband to, since he works so hard for us. At least we can spend the nights snuggling before we reenter the fray.
I hope you find happiness, BooMan.
One of my wise teachers told me that, before you marry anyone, always find out who else he/she loves. One of our problems is that we tend to think that love is a response to a particular person, when its really more like a capacity that we develop.
Having said all that, my ideal would be to live in something like the Mosu culture in China. It’s recounted in the book, “Leaving Mother Lake: A Girlhood on the Edge of the World.” In short, households are arranged around the women and there are no husbands – only brothers and uncles. Adult women are the only ones in the household who have private bedrooms and any man can “visit” any woman on any given night. Of course, they both have to agree to the “visit.” Sounds like paradise to me.
that is pretty much what i have been living for the past 5 or so years…..and while it has its advantages….i dont think it would have worked when i was bringing up children…in theory it should work better but in reality i dont think so….which for me sums up my answer to the question of what women want;
(for the womone who choose this particular path)when we are younger and raising a family we need a steady monogamous breadwinning partner….later on when we are free of that task we need, or rather want and there is a huge difference, more of a playmate or three, which i believe is exactly what men want….for some reason society thinks we need to have the same partner till death….i think thats flawed thinking no matter what path we choose or what gender of partner we choose or whether we raise families or not….we change….show me a study that disporves that….so we need and want different things along the path….society seems to want everyone in a neat little package that never changes and it just doesnt work that way.
as for me personally i want one primary partner who is worthy of me…..i dont care what he does or how much money he makes as long as he doesnt whine all day and night about it (which is what i have now)….and although he is my primary partner i want to have the freedom to have other partners of both sexes…..with rules….the partner i have now does all the housework…in pantyhose…thats his choice and he is better at it than me anyway….but i cook or all we would eat are hot pockets….he is still raising little kids and i dont interfere with that…i do everything i can to help him with that though as far as making sure the time he has with them is substantial and a priority and the time he is away from them is quality fun time….last year i was making 3 times what he was making and i was taking care of him in many ways…this year, at least for the next few months, he is going to take care of me….thats the partnership part that in this world is necessary…its very hard to make it alone…which is why the divorce rate isnt 90%…..give us universay health care and a whole lot of american women will file for divorce tomorrow…..but i digress….as far as sex i think HEALTHY men and women want the same thing…lots of sex…the problem is we arent all healthy especially as we get older and womens sexual health is completely ignored in this country…i dont think there are many things you can generalize about….everyone seems to want something different…one partner who is a cuddler or 10 partners who are never satisfied….knowing oneself is always a good idea but i still think we have to allow for change even if its just for one night….does anyone really know themselves?….more important than knowing yourself is being honest with who you are or arent at any given time and not being afraid to express it, which means you better have picked the right partner who gets that you are going to be an imperfect, unstable, changing, demanding, giving, unpredictable, complex person.
i dont know if i picked the right partner or not this time around….i picked the right husband…we were a perfect match for raising children and supporting each other in the things we wanted to do when we were under 40….but that time has passed and we made the transition to not being married quite painlessly thank god….the partner i have now has a ton of issues….and my lifestyle isnt exaclty what men are trained for…..but we seem to always work thru the issues and after 5 years, the last 6 months living together, we seem to be able to make it work…i think there are 2 keys to finding the right partner….chemistry and compatibility….and those can change….which means you either adapt, accept or let go….till death parts us should really be till unhappiness parts us.
Just ask yourself what do you want. Women want the same thing.
Do you want a spouse who doesn’t listen to you?
. . .whose first word to any suggestion or idea of yours is, “no.”. . .
. . .who kicks the dog?. . .
. . .who doesn’t bother making you feel special, but takes you for granted?. . .
. . .who isn’t thrifty, clean, and irreverant?. . .
. . .who is Republican?. . .
. . .who can’t cook, launder, and clean?. . .
. . .who can’t do the chores that need to be done without being told and supervised?. . .
. . .who doesn’t like Bogart & Bacall; Tracy & Hepburn; Fred & Ginger in B&W?
. . .who can’t laugh at him/herself?. . .
. . .who is unlettered, mannerless, boorish, or stubbornly stupid?
I think you get the idea. Women want men who want women to treat them as they would wish to be treated.
I can only say what I think heterosexual women want. Though I think we all want the same things in the end.
The women I’ve known want to know that when you go out for ice cream you remember that her favorite flavor is Mint Chocolate Chip.
They want you to understand that there’s no conflict in being a Washington Redskins fan and a Dallas Cowboys fan at the same time ;o)
They want a man who will search the house at night when there are noises and then come back to bed and be able to tell her how scared he was after he’s made sure they’re safe.
They want someone who’s not intimidated by her confidence and her ability to thrive in the world just fine without him.
They want someone who will teach her daughters and sons how to sew, bake cakes, change spark plugs, and arm wrestle.
They want someone who can step aside and cheer when she is shining, but who always remembers to open the door for her.
They want to know that you care enough to imagine yourself in her body and take the time to know what makes her feel good.
She wants to know that if she’s in a room full of people it will be her eyes you see first.
She wants someone who will listen and keep listening even if you can’t fully understand what she’s saying.
That you will protect her without trying to fix everything.
And she wants to know that after 50 years together if you had a second chance at life, she’d be chosen all over again. That’s not right. What she really wants is for you to open the door to the time machine for her so she can slam it in your face and finally get away from you after fifty years of dealing with your sorry ass ;o)
We all want to be treated fairly and equally and with honesty. Even when being honest isn’t comfortable.
Most of all I think we all want to be respected for who we are. How unique we are and that after we were created the mold was broken :o)
Someone needs to clone you.
They cloned Shirl and I’m what popped out of the pod ;o)
Wow. Yup π
I want it known I like Bruce Lee flicks… but I also like foreign movies and I read the subtitles instead of the crappy ass speak over that totally ruins the film. I want a man who sees no conflict in that and sees me as being luscious for having those varied tastes.
I want it known that even though I have a bit of a hearing problem, I can still hear the earthworms crawl under the house and other various noises at 2 am. And that even though I’m “brave” enough to march in DC that doesn’t mean I’m going to get my ass out of bed and going marching through the house to go see what the noises are.
Also, I want SuperSoling to know that he just made me cry like a baby with his beautiful post.
I want to know what his favorite ice cream is… so that whenever I see it I can think of him and this fantastic post.
I love you Super.
You can’t always get what you want… but sometimes you just might get what you need…
Pax
I don’t know about it being a matter of need, but as a matter of want?
freeper sponsorship of the study says it all, imho…but hey, I’m liberated so what do I know? I never drank any koolaid so guess my view won’t be represented in their study.
more than anything is the real disadvantages of motherhood under patriarchy, and how this produces women who want husbands who will help mitigate those disadvantages.
I didn’t understand this until I became a mother myself (after 6 years of marriage and stepmotherhood). Since then, my appreciation for my husband’s hard work to earn money, and his rock-solid commitment to staying with us, has multiplied a hundredfold, and my dissatisfaction with all the other things that he does to annoy or disappoint me has decreased substantially. Compared to my son’s well-being, none of the romantic crap matters much anymore.
I know that the “study” is about marriage, not parenthood, but that’s the subtext that leaps off the page at me. If our society didn’t drop-kick mothers and babies from the get-go, maybe it would produce more marriages that didn’t require traditional structures and arrangements to thrive.
JMHO; YMMV.
A pony.
If the Repubs really wanted to Defend Marriage they’d provide taxbreaks for pony ownership.
π
did anyone see the research recently where the study told people, “Life isn’t about being happy”, and they were cured?
I just today noticed that your post says you don’t know what it takes to have a happy relationship.
Hearing about that study sort of rung a bell for me. That if we’re judging our relationships solely on “happiness” — we’re doomed to fail. Life is about more than that. Relationships are about more than that.
Likely we’ll have days or even a year when happiness isn’t there. But other things will be, that can cause bonding if you let them, or cause your relationship to unravel, if you’re just worried about lack of HQ. I think you have to not take the HQ (happiness quotient) too seriously, and just not worry about some happenings.
inlcuded. Happiness with the relationship, that is.
I think this is a popular confusion.
It will not make you happy with the state of the world, your job, or lack thereof, your dyfunctional family, if applicable, having to rake leaves, shred junk mail, or pay taxes.
The perfect spouse cannot change any of that, at best some of those things may be easier to bear because you have the happiness with the relationship to balance things out a bit, but neither of you can or should expect comprehensive and universal happiness with all aspects of life.
You are actually damn lucky to be happy with each other, as so many of the comments on the subject, here and elsewhere, will attest π