I was 15. It was a little more than a month before my 16th birthday. I was half drunk. I went willingly with him to his bedroom when I knew no one else was at home.
I was a virgin. He knew that. I’d told him, repeatedly. We both knew what my virginity meant in a cultural sense; that I still had the societal worth that a female is afforded before she has sexual intercourse (or before a man rapes her); that if we were to have sex, it would be him who would “score” and me who would “be scored upon”; that he would win something and I would lose something; that sexual intercourse is what makes boys into men and girls into sluts.
We had discussed all of this repeatedly. I’d also told him, repeatedly and very clearly, that whenever we fooled around we could do pretty much anything he wanted except for fucking. I wanted to fool around but I didn’t want to get pregnant. I was 15.
He was 18. He told me he understood that I wanted to remain a virgin for some as yet still undetermined period of time. He said that was cool. He said he was satisfied with the fooling around. He said he loved me. He’d shown me pictures of his trip to Europe with his mom, the town where his family had lived before they’d come to the States, and he’d cried while he told me how horrible he’d always felt about the distance between him and his dad. He shopped with me, people. We bought matching pink polo shirts at the mall and then rode home on his motorcycle looking like one of those obnoxious Bobbsey twins couples. He practically genuflected to me at the football game that night, seemingly so proud to be there with me, to be my boyfriend.
So later on when we started making out on the bed, like we had a bunch of other times, I wasn’t worried. We’d been drinking downstairs earlier with our friends, like we had a bunch of other times. He’d had a few beers, I’d had a few wine coolers, maybe we smoked a joint, I don’t remember anymore. I do remember that when I went upstairs with him, I was kinda high, and bubbly, and turned on, and happy. I remember that I trusted him.
After we were naked, I started to feel a little sketchy. At first, I didn’t know why. I didn’t feel sick. I wasn’t too high. I wasn’t doing anything sexual that I’d not already done with either him or other boyfriends so I wasn’t uncomfortable for reasons of that nature. I don’t know. The air in the room changed. It was subtle but I guess some part of me was primed to pick up a dangerous vibe like that even before I learned how to read it.
The next thing I knew, he was pinning my arms to the sheets and holding my legs apart with his knees and I was going, “No, wait!” and he was forcing his penis into my vagina.
I promptly went into shock. And when I say ‘promptly’, I really mean that, it happened in an instant. My body stopped responding and shut down, and my brain shifted into an emergency functioning mode that didn’t include much emotional awareness of my context. I mostly just stared at the red lit numbers on the alarm clock that sat on the nightstand by the bed, watched them sit static, watched them change from one to the next to the next. Running through my mind was a chaotic series of thoughts that extended from the initial shock of the realization — Is he fucking me? Oh my god, he actually is. I am being fucked against my will. — to frantically wondering how safe I really was since he acted like he didn’t hear me and continued to look as though he were in a trance, all the way through about 15 different brands of panic about what this would mean for my identity, and ultimately, what it might turn out to mean for my future on the whole — If he gets me pregnant, I will fucking kill him.
Eventually, I began to cry. And that seemed to jolt him.
At first, all the communication was non-verbal. He realized that I was crying, and he finally stopped fucking me. He pulled out and sat back on his knees, looking at me with what first appeared to be all the sweet boyfriendly concern in the world. I didn’t say anything, I just looked back at him. And then, as he searched my face for further information, one of two things happened: either it hit him, what he had done, or he realized that it was time to put on a performance. I have never been sure which thing it was.
His face morphed from tightened concern to abject horror. “I’m so sorry,” he began to say, and he tried to lie down next to me and wrap himself around me.
“Don’t touch me,” I snapped.
I got up and reached for my clothes in the pile on the floor.
“But I love you!” he protested.
I think I might have snorted. I also think, in my haste to get dressed and get the hell outta Dodge, that I might have left my socks under his bed.
“Oh god, I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I’m sorry, please don’t leave, I love you, I didn’t mean to do this, I didn’t even realize that I was….ohmygod I’msorryI’msorryI’msorry.”
I could not bring myself to look at him again.
He punched a hole in the closet door and screamed that he loved me some more.
I didn’t even look over my shoulder while I left. I shot out of the apartment and back downstairs to the other apartment in which our friends were still partying. I did not realize that one of them — my boyfriend’s asshole best friend — had just stolen back downstairs two seconds before I did, because he had been watching the whole goddamned time upstairs through an air vent that connected the living room to the bedroom. That bastard watched while his friend raped me.
I wouldn’t find out about that for another week or so afterward, though — I’d find out about it around the same time as I found out the boyfriend who claimed to love me so much had started calling me a lying little slut all around town and started to date one of my best friends. She was a freshman, 14. And he’d rape her too, eventually, even though I’d beg her to get away from him and tell her why and she’d choose to believe his version of events over mine. I don’t know if the asshole best friend got to watch him rape that girl, too, of if the asshole best friend ever said to the other girl what he ultimately said to me, which was something kinda like, “If you ever tell, I’ll testify that I watched and that I heard you say ‘yes’.” This was said all faux-friendly-like, at another party where I unexpectedly ran into these boys later that summer.
Everyone who was at the party the night that the boy actually raped me was able to immediately connect a reasonable number of dots as soon as they saw me. I’m a person who often wears my emotions raw and fuck you if that makes you uncomfortable. Through my tears and rage and shame and fear and confusion, I asked my friend Michael to drive me home because he was the only person in the room I felt certain wouldn’t victimize me again in some way (and he didn’t). I still wasn’t thinking of this as a rape. I never said the word ‘rape’ at the party, and I never said it to Michael. But Michael could barely hold himself inside of his skin while he drove me across town. There were offers to console me, to kick my boyfriend’s ass, and even to kill him iffin he needed killin’. I appreciated that, but I didn’t say much.
When I got home, I showered a lot, cried more, and desperately tried to figure out what the fuck I was going to do if I figured out I was pregnant right as I was turning 16. I was personally against abortion at the time (always politically pro-choice). I knew I couldn’t opt for adoption; I couldn’t even give a dog away. I knew I couldn’t have a child, either. I made a concrete plan to blow up my boyfriend’s motorcycle, but remained on the fence about whether I’d do this while he was riding it or whether I was going to let him live. Then I figured maybe I’d kill myself. That was very calming, and I was working out a methodology when I realized I couldn’t do it because I couldn’t be responsible for killing an infant as well and I couldn’t yet know whether or not my boyfriend and my own biology were still in the process of betraying me by creating one. So I just sat and cried because there wasn’t anything else to do.
I was a severely abused child who was still stuck in a severely abusive house. There was no help for me at home, so I couldn’t mention this to anyone in my family. It only would have got my ass kicked.
The next morning I got up, showered some more, got dressed, and walked to school. With each step I took toward the high school, I felt sicker and sicker to my stomach. I was going to have to see him. I was going to have to see all those people from that party the night before, all of whom knew that something very sexually wrong had happened between me and my boyfriend — nobody was actually saying the word ‘rape’ yet — and all of whom, surely, had formulated their own opinions on the matter by now.
Because that is what people do. People have opinions about other people’s private lives and the way we choose to run them. I knew my friends, I knew my peers, I knew my school. I would be believed by some people and not believed by others; I would be considered a victim by some people and a dumb girl who brought it on herself by others; I would be called stupid for drinking, stupid for dating him, stupid for dating him while drinking; I would be called slutty and I would be called easy and they would say I was just like my mother; even the ones who “supported” me would whisper about how my being “way too cocky for a girl” had surely been what led to this; I would be objectified by both the girls and the boys, the believers and the non-believers, and I would hate every fucking second of it.
Enter the girl who would save my ass. I’d only just met her the night before at the football game. Somehow, we knew all the same people but we’d never met. We’d never even heard of each other before. This was impossible. We were both extremely popular at school, varsity athletes, had been for years. Everybody knew who we were, we knew each other’s friends, we’d been to many of the same parties. It was not that big of a school. I maintain to this day that it is logically impossible that we did not know each other before that night, and that perhaps the universes shifted one parallel universe to the left or something and brought us into the same dimension of each other’s lives. Whatever. Enter the girl who would save my ass.
When I passed through the gate of the parking lot at school she was seated atop the hood of her car, waiting for me to arrive.
“You cannot be in school today,” she informed me. “Wanna go to the beach? For one, we really need to talk, and for two, my prom’s tomorrow night and if you’re still planning on going with Frankie then we both need some damn color.”
I was so grateful that I don’t even remember what I said to her. I only remember agreeing and starting to cry again. We got into her car, she drove to my house, I rolled a few joints, we got on 112 and drove wordlessly to Miami Beach. Heavy on my mind were all the things I was afraid of losing, like freedom and school and soccer and my future, and worse, the things I thought I had already lost, like the most valuable thing a woman is told that she has, her sexual purity via her virginity, and thus nearly all of her self-worth and cultural value.
On the beach, we talked for hours. Among so many other things, this young woman told me about how she’d been victimized and raped, and she said the word. “Rape.” Then she said something like this to me:
“I know you feel dirty, and not in the good way. Like something’s been stolen from you and you’ll never be able to get it back. But that’s mostly just about bullshit you’ve been taught to believe that doesn’t relate much to actual fact. I mean, of course, he’s a bastard who raped you. That’s not going to change. He stole trust from you and abused it. That’s for real and he’s an asshole.
“But you’re all fucked up because you think he took something real and something valuable away from you when he took your virginity, and he didn’t. Aside from your cherry, which you probably popped yourself years ago with a tampon or playing soccer like a madwoman, so is totally inconsequential, virginity is mostly just a fiction for men that revolves around that idea they have that all we’re good for is sex, and that they own us and demean us by fucking us. Which is obviously straight up bullshit to anyone with half a brain, but that doesn’t stop so many of them from acting like total pricks.
“So, you know, if you want to kill him, I’d understand that. I might even be persuaded to help you. I’ll damn sure hide you.” She grinned. “But whatever else you choose to do, DO NOT let this asshole ruin your sense of yourself or your enjoyment of sex. Both of those things are way too good to let some cheap horny bastard steal them from you during your sophomore year in high school.
“He did not take your body. It is not his. You still own it. He did not take your pussy. It is not his. You still own it. You can do whatever you want with it. And all these lines of bullshit they’re always selling us about how women are ‘supposed to be’? Don’t buy into it, it’s a trap, and in the end it just helps men rape women. Look, just like you were already being whatever kind of girl you wanted to be, and you were fucking off convention, you can choose to be whatever kind of sexual woman that you want to be, whenever you’re ready for it, and fuck off convention. Own both your own mind and your own pussy and do whatever you want to do with them — that’s the path from where you are to healing and freedom.”
And that wasn’t the only time she saved my ass, either.
I remember finally getting to college about 10 years after I had that conversation with that young woman on Miami Beach, reading a ton of history and philosophy, and figuring out just how goddamn smart she really was.
Rape is an essential part of the patriarchy. It is a primary way in which men, as a class, control women, as a class. The combination of cultural messaging about sex, and about how to attain and maintain one’s general worth — very different messages go to boys and girls about these things — with the pervasiveness of rape and the frequency with which rapists are not prosecuted or are only slapped on the wrist all come together to create a very effective social control. These acts and messages are all consciously and subconsciously deployed to create and maintain a hierarchy where men have privilege and power specifically because women are kept living in fear and shame and lesser power.
The single worst aspect of that rape, for me, was the mindfuck. The boy didn’t hurt me in the physical sense. I didn’t even have bruises from where he pinned me. But the culture we live in had already trained me to view my own worth through my vagina, and so when he raped me, he did damage that went far deeper than any “physical damage” he could have done (allowing, of course, for the fact that I did not become pregnant as a result of this rape). He did damage to my identity that I did not even know how to name for several years.
It was thus important to me to also talk about resistance and about healing today, and to leave the essay inside the diary itself in at least a semi-healing kind of place. My high school girlfriend taught me how to begin the long process of reclaiming as much of myself as I could from all of this shit, and I will never stop being grateful to her for that. I know, now, that someone can rape me, or I can fuck a ton of people of whichever sex in whichever way I want to, or I can fuck no one at all, and that none of that affects the first goddamned thing about my intrinsic value.
It’s a valuable lesson but one that sometimes seems nearly impossible to teach most young girls — instead they constantly have it driven into them that their entire worth is dependent on males view them.
And maybe this is the best thing any one of us can do — reach out to young girls to help them realize their own self-worth.
That’s one of the conversations I’m hoping to spark, so thank you for that observation, Andi. It’s so easy to feel powerless, but we can resist, and a critically important part of that is self-definition — a thing that is much easier said than done, ime.
Jim read Reviving Ophelia a few years back and among the things it led him to do was to look closely at the books that he head the kids read and to look for good books which tackle issues of agency and self-worth — the books and the discussions give him a way to ‘preach’ without being preachy.
was Buddha
lol, I think you might be right about that.
And not just when he said he was sorry and that he loved you.
He was performing from the minute you entered the bedroom, for his friend who was watching through the air vent.
They must have had it planned long in advance. That tonight would be the night, when he would rape his virgin girlfriend and his friend would hide and watch.
I am too angry right now to say more.
That’s more or less my take on it…but there has always been this sense in my mind that he did genuinely care about me on some level.
What I think, really, is that he got all fucked up with his definitions of masculinity and of what women are; I think it sort-of confused him that he cared about me, since he was being taught at every turn that he wasn’t supposed to, that I was supposed to just be a target to score on. And men construct these notions where boys can only truly become men through fucking women, and in many cases, dominating women — most times the fucking seems to be defined as a kind of domination so it’s a twofer in that it’s sexually satisfying and also establishes & reaffirms a male’s sense of himself as a man.
Does it sound like I’m making excuses for him? I’m not. I just think that unpacking the psychological shit that goes on inside men’s heads is a crucial part of the process of convincing them to stop raping us.
It’s a vicious cycle.
If women are not only inferior to men, and the opposit other by which men measure their “not-womanness”, but also the means by which they achieve masculinity, we will always be second best to the opinions of other men.
The “Bro’s, Not ‘Ho’s” mentality allows men to feel some measure of love for a woman, but still trash her with his buddies.
When more women open their eyes and ears to the ubiquitous betrayal perpetrated by men who say they love us, we WILL have a woman’s revolution.
Time to start calling them on it.
“Your brother just joked about getting a 17 year old drunk and screwing her, and you laughed along with him. Your dad said you should remind me of my place, and you nodded. Last night you partied with the guys and enjoyed a porn tape showing women with bruises on their bodies.
Please explain to me why I would ever want to make love again with somebody who sells me and mine out on a regular basis just for the faint approval of other men. If their opinion of you is that much more important than mine, why don’t you go fuck one of them ?”
Having worked in a male dominated industry – (involving a great deal of independent socializing with male executives, and travel with male counterparts) – I soon discovered a quick method to evaluate a man’s intentions and/or character – through the way the man spoke about his significant other. (Realizing, of course, that we all have bad days on occasion, when we might innocuously snipe a little bit about our loved ones.)
Some comments and actions are overt, and some can be rather subtle. But all in all, that barometer has worked for me 100% of the time.
You know something?
I wonder if the asshole “best friend” was jealous of your relationship with him? Just a thought. It seemed you were close, and maybe that made him happy, and maybe the asshat “best friend” thought it was “girly/soft/effeminate” etc. I always hear males blather on about “not listening to your friends who probably don’t have a man” but maybe the asshole was jealous of him in some way?
And so, asshole “best friend” decides to give him pointers on what makes “a real man” or that he has to do X to be fully accepted?
This does not excuse the bastard. No way…at all. Goddamn all the excuses–no means no, all the time–no exceptions. But I do wonder, though–why was he so susceptible to such peer pressure? Or maybe it was always there?
Again, I’m in awe. You–and all the Boo Trib women sharing your stories–are SOOOOO very brave!
{{{{Indy}}}}
That was my first thought as well reading it. They had it all planned out. Was Indylib the first one that they did this to I wonder? Probably not, and that’s the sick part. Somehow I doubt she was last as well.
Thank you Indylib for telling your story…
{{{Indy}}}
{{Cake or Death}}
Based on some personal things that I won’t put on the internet, I’m fairly certain that I was actually the first for the boy who raped me, but not for his friend. I suspect, looking back on it, that the ‘friend’ had raped several other local girls who I didn’t know.
They couldn’t have planned what he did to me that night very specifically because of some other personal things I won’t get into on the internet. I think it’s clear that the ‘friend’ was hiding and watching me fool around with my then-boyfriend for a while beforehand, though, and that that contributed to an ever-increasing pressure on my then-boyfriend to force me into sexual intercourse.
My read of what I saw in my then-boyfriend was the ‘becoming’ of a rapist. I really don’t think he was a rapist when I met him; he just had the potential to become one. And the stuff he did with his ‘friend’ (who really was a sleazebag) amounted to him choosing the kind of path that turned him into a rapist.
Oh god…I am so sorry. What a fucking bastard! He essentially corrupted him didn’t he? How long did he suggest it? The mind wobbles trying to get into these kind of men’s heads. I am just utterly speechless.
Big wrap around so warm so comfy HUGS!
{{{{{{{{Indy}}}}}}}}
Hit the nail on the head there. Speaking of being angry, maybe I’m all wrong here, but I think it would have been good if her other friend had beat the crap out of this guy… or gone to him with a group and told him that in no uncertain terms they WOULD beat the crap out of him if they ever heard he did this again. (Nah, beat the crap out of him, sometimes you have to speak to people in a language they can understand.)
Not just for that guy… but to send a chilling effect through ALL those in that school that would want to do the same thing to a woman.
I was part of a group like that once. We heard a particular gal was being beaten by her husband. A group of us went to their door when he was home, and informed him that we would beat him within an inch of his life if he ever touched her again.
I know plenty of kids who were beaten within an inch of their lives by their parents until they either hit back, or finally said, “Stop, or I will beat you.”
I just think we have GOT to start standing up to bullies.
How wonderful that you met someone who knew these things so young and could tell you. That’s really great. Best thing that could happen after something shitty like that. Have you thought about trying to get this published?
Like I said in the diary, she saved my ass in lots of ways. I like to think this was mutual. We both came out of really messed up homes, she’d figured some things out, I’d figured out some other things, and we helped each other along for a few years.
And no, I probably wouldn’t choose to publish this essay in any other kind of forum, but thanks for thinking it might be written well enough for that.
It is very well written, thank you for showing it to us.
Your friend had great advice. It’s awful that you had to go through this, but at least she was there to support you.
It’s hard to admit this, but boys really do mature emotionally at a far slower rate. There really is a gap when it comes to having interpersonal relationships. I hope that my son understands far sooner than I did that it’s not all about me. Ultimately my own delayed maturity is my responsibility, but I must say that the behavior displayed by my parents during my formative years was considerably less than ideal.
Mammas (and Daddies) don’t let your babies grow up to self-centered men.
…to be self-centered men.
Thanks for your comments, boran2. I know these conversations are hard on everyone and I really appreciate your contributions.
It’s hard to admit this, but boys really do mature emotionally at a far slower rate.
I’m not so sure that I buy the idea that boys naturally mature all that much slower than girls (and I’m not saying you’re forwarding that, I’m sort-of just riffing off your post) — although puberty onset suggests that there’s definitely a natural trend of boys maturing a year or so slower.
I rather suspect that a large chunk of what we tend to think of as “much slower emotional maturity” for boys is really just society condoning and enabling an extended period of childish selfishness for males. And females are forced to mature quicker because, as was pointed out and discussed in yesterday’s diaries, we are shoved into the conflicting role of being both bait and prey at the same time, and for many of us, this starts when we are still in elementary school or barely out of it. We are still babies, then, really.
Of course, little boys are also prey. I don’t want to discount that truth for a second. It’s a part of the patriarchal hierarchy that all children are at risk. But little boys are almost always very clear on the idea that they will someday become men who are not prey, and thus that they will someday have power; for little girls, this lesser power realization is a permanent psychological adjustment. I think all of that has something important to do with what we perceive of as differing maturity rates among boys and girls.
Mine was merely an observation of the effect, not the cause. I’m not disagreeing with you though. Perhaps we do allow it to happen this way. “Mischevious boys and good girls” does seem to be culturally sanctioned.
In my own case, my parents had 4 boys and 1 girl (she is the oldest). Far too much for two emotionally damaged adults to handle, but that is another story. There was definitely something lacking though.
Just had to say this. I’m in awe of your writing and your eye-opening ways of looking at things. Thank you.
And yes, there are too many rape stories out there, but too few of them are being told. I, as a man, ask myself “Why am I sitting here reading all your rape stories?”
I’d like to think of it as a way to share your pain and in that give some small comfort. It feels so inadequate though.
Thanks for the compliments, but more importantly, thanks for being in here and reading. The more men understand the extent of the problem, perhaps they will be more motivated to start developing strategies amongst themselves to stop this shit.
Women really can’t stop a culture of rape. We can talk about it, and help each other heal from it, and scream about it, and kill ourselves, but we can’t stop it. Only men can really change a rape culture. By changing the way they look at women and define women; by changing the way they look at themselves and define themselves.
I am alternately motivated to stop this shit and just flat depressed.
One thing I am wondering: what percentage of the abusers in these stories are young men, say under 25? Versus, bosses, uncles, step-dads and older men and/or boyfriends?
Just on a casual observation, it seems like most of these experieces happened to women who were teenagers or younger.
Have the women found men to less abusive as they grow older? And if so, is that just because earlier bad experiences taught you to be more discerning judges of character?
I’m trying to get a grip on the nature of the problem. But, I confess, I find this all a little overwhelming…and not just a little bit confusing.
It is both confusing and overwhelming for just about everyone involved — especially when you are just coming to grips with the extent of it.
In this case, the boy was 18. I was 15. In another case, my uncle was 16 when he fondled me and I was 3. In my girlfriend’s case, the first man who raped her was in his 40s when he started raping her; she was about 12. He had raped her male cousin also, years before, when the male cousin came out as gay in order to, “Teach him a lesson.” Just yesterday there was a news item about some nutjob senior citizen male in rural Kingman who was raping and killing little girls in his neighborhood — they got him when one of the little girls got away and they found bodies buried on his property. “He was such a nice neighbor!” Ever thus.
It spans all ages, all races, all contexts. It is that goddamned pervasive. I can practically guarantee you that you are very close friends/family with at least one rapist right now, and that you have probably (unknowingly) bonded with several over your lifetime at various stages. Some of the loners are exceptional at hiding it, and rapists in general tend to also be pretty good at picking out other rapists so they can function in pairs and groups, covering for each other and enabling each other.
I also don’t think a lot of them think of it as rape, I think they think of it as “having a good time”, “scoring”, “persuading a reluctant woman”, etc.
The reason why the stories here involve younger women is because these are stories by survivors. The ones for whom it keeps happening often become stories in newspapers.
This abuse doesn’t happen to women because they are bad judges of characters; it happens because women are taught that their judgment doesn’t matter, only how they are judged matters. And men learn that women’s value is based on their judgment. So every woman gets judged on whether she is fuckable or not. It’s a male entitlement and the more a man believes in that entitlement, the easier it is for him to rape — if women exist to be fucked by men, then why shouldn’t a man fuck them. And it’s easiest to wield that entitlement against those who have the least ability to confront and combat it — which are often girls and young women.
Exactly right, Andi.
And this is a big reason why feminists are always talking about language and imagery when it comes to representations of women. When the language makes you into an object, and there is imagery everywhere that makes you into an object, then culturally speaking, you are an object. Even inside your own mind, you can come to think of yourself as an object (internalized oppression).
When the same language makes men into agents and subjects, and the same pervasive imagery reflects men as agents and subjects, then you get what we have now — an entire culture that affords men primary control of everything from the household to the government by subjugating women and normalizing it as “just the way it is” — or what’s even worse, the fundie view of “the way it should be”.
Everyone should think carefully and critically about the language we use and how that contributes to our understandings of broader concepts.
Every time a man calls another man a “pussy” as a form of calling him weak, every time a football coach refers to the team as “ladies” in an attempt to reinforce a hierarchy of subordination, this stuff just serves to reinforce the connections in the mind that categorize females as lesser-than. When these kinds of words are more sexualized, that’s what conditions the mind to categorize females as prey — even if women are not directly called ‘prey’, the meaning still attaches. The language and the images, they matter.
I wish more of the men on the site would offer up their perspectives on these things, but I think most of us are too stunned.
On some level that I am finding very hard to express, I think I am seeing a lot of confusion from the collective women on the site about what exactly makes men tick. I am not talking about the rapists per se, since I am very uncertain about exactly what makes them tick too.
But there are greater generalizations going on here, as you try to offer up cultural explanations for why so many men become rapists, or just boorish brutes.
There is not enough male input to counterbalance this. To try to imagine what I’m talking about, picture yourself listening to a large panel of men talking to each other about why women are the way they are, and why they have these certain unattractive qualities. I think you would find that the men would have many fine and incisive points. But they would still sound like bad anthropoligists to a listening audience of women.
Does that make sense?
that to some degree, you have to be able to differentiate between men (and women) on an individual level and men (again, and women) on a social level. The two are not entirely distinct, because of course the fundamental unit of society is the individual, who in turn is built in attitudes by the social forces in which he or she operates.
I don’t “blame men” for sexism, for example. I think that sexism is foundational to our culture. Therefore, nobody escapes it — and men’s attitudes about themselves and about women are colored by that sexism. That’s just as true about women. It’s a force from which none of us ever escape.
When we get at “what makes men tick” or “what makes women tick”, we are working in vast generalizations — generalizations that even I have some trouble with, for various other complicated reasons. But they’re meaningful generalizations not just because they might be statistically true — hell, they might not. But because they reflect a pervasive attitude that is propogated by a million different means and through everyone in one way or another.
I really feel hamstrung about discussing this because some of the people that know my dating history read this site and to talk about my experiences would reveal information about identifiable people.
But, I’ll try to talk in general terms. When I was in high school there were a few girls (at various points) that huge crushes on me that I treated badly in different ways.
In one case, I was willing to spend time with her as long as she didn’t let anyone else know about it. In another, even though I really liked her too, I wasn’t willing to risk spending time with her at all, and even though we were friends I treated her like shit when I was around my friends. In another case, I blew off a girl I had led to believe I liked because she wouldn’t have made an appropriate girlfriend (socially). And then I was rude to her.
And the thing about this confession is that in each case I wasn’t doing what I wanted to do, but doing what I felt I needed to do to keep my place in my circle of friends.
Then a friend of mine did something truly courageous. He had been secretly dating a very very cool girl but one that was not considered good looking. They were in love with each other. And when people found out, he was mocked relentlessly. For a while, even his best friends made him the butt of jokes. And he stopped hanging out with his old buddies and the popular crowd. And instead he began to treat his girlfriend like a girlfriend, without any shame.
That taught me a lesson that I never forgot. And I never let my peer’s groupthink manipulate how I truly felt towards people again.
I use these examples because they are so typical of high school, but they are also examples of when I was under pressure not to put notches under my belt. I had these connections with people but it was not okay for me to be open about them. And it made me act like an asshole.
Now, there are also examples where the pressure is on to add notches. And the same dynamic can make boys act like assholes, even to become a rapist.
You start dating a girl and your friends want to know if you have scored yet. You haven’t, so you lie about it. Or you haven’t, so you make a greater effort to score. It’s all high school bullshit. By college it began to wear off, and I heard much less of that kind of crap.
But the strange thing about this peer pressure, at least for me, is that is never reflected how I looked at women, or what I wanted out of a relationship. Sometimes it made me act like a jerk, but I felt like crap for acting like a jerk.
Okay, enough with the confessionals. I don’t know how much of this is caused by our culture, other than the fact that our culture allows boys and girls to get into these situations whereas other cultures go to great trouble to try to ensure than these situations do not occur.
But this is not high school bullshit, and I’m really glad you brought it up.
Specifically, what does “greater effort to score” mean? Do boys talk about it? What do they say? How do they teach each other to make such an effort? Is it all casual, like, “Dude, just try harder,” or does it get specific, like, “Get her lubricated with a little alcohol first”? Because the first thing is high school bullshit, the second thing is part of a rape culture.
A boy who came to believe that the latter suggestion is an appropriate way of having sex with a girl will probably turn into a man who puts a Ruffie in a woman’s drink at the bar, or a male who is willing to molest/fuck a passed out female in a variety of contexts. Especially if he is also taught — as most men are — that sex with women is not only his right as a man, but that it a primary mechanism of establishing and securing his manhood.
…and SHE DOESN’T MATTER.
We can’t forget that part, because it goes to the heart of sexism. Telling your buddies you scored is more important than the feelings of the girl/woman who was intimate with you. That’s what we have meant all these years when we complain that women are treated as OBJECTS. We are just things to be used, a means to an end. Our very humanity is denied.
I understand that many men treat women like shit (“doing what I felt I needed to do to keep my place in my circle of friends.”)and feel bad about it. I don’t care how bad they feel. Some Germans felt bad about the Jews. Some southern whites felt bad about blacks. Some Christian fundamentalists feel bad about gays. If they feel bad, keep doing it, and make no effort to change it, their bad feelings are self-indulgent bullshit. Booman, the difference is, you saw that it was wrong, and you changed. That’s what makes you the hero of your own life, and I applaud you.
Yes, yes, yes.
That is a point I was playing around with yesterday. When a boy makes a decision to lie and say he went further with a girl than is the truth, he is not necessarily doing it because he is sexist, but because he is just totally self-centered. I’ve never seen a 28 year old lie about something like that, and most of the 17 years olds I’ve known have lied about something like that. That is why I think there is something about teenage brains and group dynamics that explains a lot of this. It’s a combination of insecurity and peer pressure and self-centeredness, much more than it is an internal attitude toward women.
Depending on how independent the young man is, leader vs. follower, he may lose this phony persona, or carry it through his whole life.
And, by the way, I am trying to describe what it is like to be a teenage boy, not say it is good or right, or just the way it is. I’m trying to describe these things to humanize the problem and provide a male perspective.
The larger social analysis about why things are this way is not my focus here and I make no pretense to have any special wisdom about the larger picture.
But that big picture is exactly the point, because while the teenage boy isn’t, probably, thinking on the surface one way or another about sexism, he’s forming his own identity and forming his relationships with women within a sexist framework. Not one of his making, but one that he has to learn to negotiate.
A lot of that peer pressure, as I’ve said below, seems to be about proving his masculinity. As if masculinity is defined by “scoring chicks” — which is absolutely a view that is based in gendered objectification, again, with girls as a means to an end. I get the sense that you’re trying to say that this isn’t primarily about gender, but I think what you’re missing is that in the teenage mind especially and for people in this culture in general, self-esteem is at least partially about gender.
I’m not absolving young women from their role in this whole thing either, by the way — I feel really strongly that this is an overall power structure in which we all play some kind of part, either reinforcing it or hopefully twisting it a bit, in the case of those of us who don’t fit the two box system very well.
Here is what I am trying to do. I am trying to explain how a boy’s mind works in a way that I get the sense a lot of women are not quite getting.
If you want to attribute a boy’s thoughts to these overarching themes of gender roles and all that, and objectification, and sexism, that’s fine. Ultimately, you can fit what I am talking about into those boxes.
But what is they boy feeling?
I can tell you this. Maybe two times in my life have I ever had a relationship that was just what might be called a notch-making objectifying thing. That is, from my perspective.
But, in several other relationships, it certainly would have looked that way to the woman, or to an outside observer. The reason I raised examples of where I was under pressure not to have a relationship of not to admit to it, is because I think it shows how a lot of lousy behavior by young men is not indicative of their feelings, it is not internalized. They do not view women as objects, but they do treat them that way.
Some might say that it is a distinction without a difference, but I don’t think so. All I needed was an example of someone with courage to set a good example for me. And it also helped to graduate from high school and lose the peer group that was such a bad influence. And it also helped to just grow up and mature and become a better rounded person.
For a woman, it is not going to make a tremendous amount of difference why a man acted like a pig. But if you want to try to understand why boys and men act as they do so that you might figure out at least part of why all these rapes are occurring, I think you need to understand better how the actual set pieces or mindset of the boy are triggered.
Yes, it takes place in an atmosphere of rampant objectification. But it is more complicated than that. What really drives it is not really the objectification. What drives it is a greater allegiance to the peer group than to your own autonomy and your own feelings.
I don’t know, I think the distinction I am trying to make is important. Others may not see it as important.
You’re right about that, Booman.
So what kind of sick motherfucking “peer” group requires this kind of crap from its peers?
I’ve long espoused the opinion that men commit rape more as a way of ‘impressing’ other men (whether in their own minds or by ‘bragging’ about it later).
I’m not sure that rape is even related to the immediate experience of exerting power over a woman.
Again: rape is a men’s issue, especially if it is true (as I suspect) that men raping women is really more about raising their esteem in the eyes of other men.
So obviously, somewhere somehow, there is something about men collectively that attaches ‘status’ and ‘value’ to another man’s ability to rape a woman.
if disrespect for women (whether in the ‘milder’ verbal forms or in the overt form of violence) were not valued by the peer group (i.e. men) there would be no advantage to it really.
I think that I disagree with this quite strongly.
As I noted elsewhere, I have Never heard a man admit, much less brag about, having non-consensual sex. Not ever.
So, even in the most loutish environment, men just do not attribute any status to the rapist. Ever.
Perhaps you might find that is some biker gang or something. But it is beyond rare.
well, then, where does ‘peer’ pressure come in?
there is no peer pressure to have non-consensual sex, there is peer pressure to have consensual sex. That is why, by far, most boys will lie rather than rape. The pressure is so strong that many boys would rather lie than admit that they can’t convince the girl that they are desirable.
The girl that has just been branded a slut will naturally feel betrayed and feel totally objectified. But the boy probably didn’t want to do that to her at all. He was just terrified and that was the easiest way out.
I am not saying this is a healthy situation. It’s pathologically sick. On that we would agree.
I don’t agree that there is no peer pressure to have non-consensual sex, nor do I agree that there is no ‘value’ attached to the ability of men to rape–rape is seen as a form of ‘sexual prowess’.
If this were not widespread, we would not see so many films with brutal rape scenes, we would not see a huge porn industry centering on NON-consensual sex (in the most extreme form: ‘snuff films’ where rape and murder are sold as a ‘turn on’).
Rape is obviously a ‘marketable’ product. It would not be so if quite a substantial number of men were not ‘titillated’ by it.
That is the extreme.
But I think there’s a huge element of it in every standard, garden-variety male ‘peer group’ in patriarchal cultures.
fantasies of control by both men and women should never be interpreted as something that is actually desired.
I remember in my early 20s discovering with female friends that men our age ranked each other not so much by notches on the belt but by female orgasms for which they could claim credit. One of my roommates was dating a guy and overheard one of his buddies asking another guy in their group, “And when was the last time you satisfied a woman?” My roommate and I were both sort of pleasantly astonished at this concept, I must admit.
Just think of the whole aspect of male popular/sexual culture that is geared towards being the Best Sex She Ever Had. There is no expectation there of virginity in the female partner. It’s about pleasing your woman, presumably so that she will put up with your otherwise obnoxious male presence.
I think what happens in the minds of some of the many rapists is that they are operating in fantasyland, a denial so deep that they believe while they are raping a woman that she is totally into it, that she is having the Best Sex Possible because of his irrestistible manliness or whatever. Or part of the rape is that they require her to say these things to him. “Show me how much you like it.” Somehow the fact that he’s got a knife to her throat doesn’t deflate his fantasy.
I know this isn’t the whole picture, but it might be part of what is going on in this twisted and often violent sexual culture of ours.
“What drives it is a greater allegiance to the peer group than to your own autonomy and your own feelings.”
That’s just human, at that age.
What I’m trying to get at, and I don’t think I’m doing it very gracefully, is that the forms that peer pressure (and not just peers, but pressure coming from all over the place) is hugely different depending on which gendered box you fit in. And the short and longterm effects of it create a power difference that has nothing to do with individual feelings on the matter — one that, at its most extreme, leads to situations like rape, but that also feeds a huge variety of other sexist acts.
This doesn’t magically begin when you’re a teenager, first off — one of the huger pressures on boys is to show of how much they’re “not girls”. That tends to continue well into adulthood, even if it’s not stated as such (and sometimes it even is).
And frankly, I really don’t think the distinction that you’re making is all that important. Because what we’re talking about here is a social interaction, not a simple matter of what’s going on in one person’s head. That allegiance to peers that you’re talking about is both built through some degree of sexism (competition for girl-objects, for example, often being an intrinsic part of the whole deal) and reinforces it to the point that portions of it are internalized enough to affect behavior and more subtle attitudes. Some of that, some people grow out of — and some of it, they generally do not.
The distinction you’re making between peer group and autonomy is exactly, IMO, part of the point I was trying to make a long time ago now — these aren’t really distinct, because an individual is the basic unit of that peer group (I said “society” before, which is simply the biggest peer group), and that the individual in turn has an identity that is formed through interactions with that peer group.
Your actions — not your feelings — also fed the actions of the rest of your peers, you know.
peers.
boys, men.
So you’re actually agreeing, and with each new post, in fact providing substantiation of my thesis that men rape to ‘please’ other men.
So if we can’t do anything to stop the rapists proper, then the peer group obviously has to work on changing its ‘standards’ (perceived or actual).
Ultimately, rape isn’t about women at all: on this stage, as on so many other stages in life, women are the ‘stage props’–the protagonists, the audience, heck–even the reviewers and critics–are men. and IndyLib’s point about what happens in prison populations is further evidence of that: when there aren’t any women around to use as stage props, another man will do fine as a stand-in.
Hmmm.
I’m not sure I agree that this is entirely true. Because in my experience, rape was about policing the borders of that ever-highest-on-the-totem-pole masculinity, actually. I was shown “what bitches are for” (a direct quote, in fact), because I stepped outside of my acceptable gender realm.
That’s both about “peers” and about women — peers because it’s a protection of their turf, and women because they belong in a certain role they shouldn’t challenge (and must be punished if they do).
well, I’m not even sure myself whether it’s entirely true; I do think the ‘peer’ pressure thing is something to think about.
Certainly an idea that is likely to be uncomfortable for men who like to think that just because they’ve never raped anyone, they are not in some way contributing to the problem–unintentionally, of course.
“Certainly an idea that is likely to be uncomfortable for men who like to think that just because they’ve never raped anyone, they are not in some way contributing to the problem–unintentionally, of course.”
I absolutely agree with you that this is a problem, no matter what we call a root cause of rape or more general sexism. But I think that in some ways, the vast majority of people contribute to the problem — many men, because they allow themselves to be defined in terms of their sexual exploits as a root of their masculinity, and many women, because they allow themselves to be defined as exploits or as “wanted objects”, as a very simple example.
It’s always uncomfortable to realize that you’re a player in a framework that makes certain people “lower” than others, particularly when you recognize it and hate it. But this is true of all of us.
Good. Let’s let women work on the problem of how they may or may not allow themselves to be defined as ‘wanted objects’.
But what are men seriously doing to get at the root of what it is about their behavior as ‘peers’ that causes other men to rape?
And sorry, but you will NEVER get me to concede that women are in any way shape or form responsible for RAPE.
There is NO EXCUSE. NONE.
Castrate rapists–take care of the problem.
“but you will NEVER get me to concede that women are in any way shape or form responsible for RAPE.”
Not really what I’m saying.
What I’m saying is that rape is a single, very very extreme symptom of a culture that is hugely sexist, that has sexism right down to its roots. And that’s a culture in which we all play a role — now, your role can be to go along and reinforce it through your actions, which is what most people do because they don’t think about this stuff at all, or your role can be to fuck it up as much as you can, subvert it, try to change things a bit. Either way, you’re working within a framework that is built fundamentally on sexism. There’s no escape from that.
and what I am trying to say is that feminist women have long since recognized all of this, and have been diligently engaged in the process of changing that ‘enabling’ role: for the last 40 years at least, probably for the last 100.
I do not see the same degree of engagement on the part of men, and I don’t think the changes we need to see are going to come about until men engage in that process without prompting from women.
On their own.
Just because.
Just in order to make themselves better human beings.
Don’t see it happening (much).
They do not view women as objects, but they do treat them that way.
What do they tell themselves in their minds about this? I mean, it has to be something, right? You have to give yourself permission to treat a person like an object, don’t you? It’s a thing you don’t just do.
Or does it happen more often, in your opinion, on autopilot? And if males are treating females like objects on autopilot, even though they do not perceive them that way, then what does that say about which cultural messages they’re internalizing?
I assume you’d answer that they’re internalizing something like this:
What really drives it is not really the objectification. What drives it is a greater allegiance to the peer group than to your own autonomy and your own feelings.
And I don’t think you understand objectification. Because what you just described there is a primary way in which the patriarchy objectifies men. You are taught to ally with your male peers over women or over yourself precisely because this is how the power structure perpetuates itself. Being turned into objects themselves is probably how and why so many men victimize so many women, who have also been objectified.
looking back at it, you’re confused. Here is this person that you like and that likes you. And you enjoy spending time with them. And yet, you have this overwhelming pressure to either deny that you like this person, or to take the relationship to a higher sexual level. One on one, you might manage to have true intimacy (even if it just platonic intimacy). But when you step outside of that one on one relationship the outside pressures distort your personality.
It must drive any number of girls absolutely nuts. But the boy is really in a very uncomfortable place. Torn between developing real intimacy with a girl, and all these pressures not to admit that intimacy.
This is why I think the problem is in dynamics of the peer groups. And I am not attempting to figure out how the peer group got that way or how to change it. I am just trying to explain it from a psychological standpoint.
Okay, I’m hearing you, it’s a ball of confusion and you feel pressures coming from all different directions, inside and out.
But what I’m asking you is, when boys make the decision to treat a female person like an object, what are they thinking in the moment? Are they thinking about her at all, or are they entirely focused on themselves? Are they not even thinking about themselves? Are they thinking about pleasing their friends? Their dads? What’s going on in there, specifically, when you talk about “all these pressures not to admit that intimacy”?
the short answer for a teenage boy, I think, is that they are thinking of themselves.
Let me give you one particularly strong case.
A boy is in a relationship with a girl he really likes but they are not having sex and the boy is fine with that. As people put pressure on him to have sex, he says that he already has in order to protect the girl.
How does this protect the girl? In his mind, if he gets the pressure off himself to push her, he won’t actually have to push her.
Of course, when she finds out he lied, she will never understand his confused motives.
that is the kind of weird shit that goes on in the mind of a teenage boy.
Thanks for answering that, I know this is hard. Now let me unpack what you said a little bit.
A boy is in a relationship with a girl he really likes but they are not having sex and the boy is fine with that.
Is the girl fine with that? :p
As people put pressure on him to have sex
Okay, which people? Where is this pressure coming from? What form does it take? What words or images or whatever else are used to communicate this pressure to the boy that he is to have sex? And what does he think will happen to him if he doesn’t have sex? What does he think will happen to him if he simply says: “No, I did not fuck her, I respect her, and we are not ready yet for the fucking.”?
he says that he already has in order to protect the girl. How does this protect the girl? In his mind, if he gets the pressure off himself to push her, he won’t actually have to push her.
I totally understand that the boy tells himself that this is about “protecting the girl”. I’m going to give you a big fat clue here: almost every bit of misogynistic behavior in history is sort-of covered over and normalized or justified by some man or another saying, “It was only to protect her!” Did you read the SD legislation? It actually says that it is about protecting mothers. So whenever any male thinks in his head, “this is about protecting the female” he should immediately ask the female what she thinks, because you have all been culturally conditioned to “protect” us in ways that look like protection to you, but feel like oppression to us.
I mean, you realize that you just said a boy would lie about a girl that he cares about in a way that he knows will damage her in order to protect her from himself, right?
So this sort of “protection” winds up being related to rape, an objectification (her actual thoughts and feelings are not considered; only the boy’s idea of them is being considered), and a character smear on the girl as well — all of which leave her with less power but leave the boy who lied with more power. (More external power, I should note; the boy, if he has a conscience, feels shame from all of this that no doubt causes personal fallout for him in a variety of ways.)
Of course, when she finds out he lied, she will never understand his confused motives.
I think you’re not giving girls enough credit to read the social field. Some girls are dumb, sure, just like boys — we are all people! — but if teh boy half-understands it, maybe the girl actually understands the other half and if males would just fucking talk about it maybe we could finally work past it.
Here’s another clue about the inner workings of this stuff: the patriarchy teaches men not to communicate. That “real men” don’t do “sissy shit” like chat-chat-chat about their feelings. And all that does is reinforce the existing power structure, which is based, in significant part, on enforcing unequal gender roles.
this is like a push and pull. You keep taking the concrete and making it universal. No one is actually behind some curtain somewhere pulling little levers to maintain the patriarchy.
These are just little boys and girls trying to fumble their way through their developing sexuality.
In my example the boy is hoping the girl will not find out. But yes, ultimately he is lying and besmirching her reputation to protect her from himself. And that is just the level of confusion that goes on in an existential sense among young people in these situations.
Why do boys put so much pressure on each other to have sex? That is another question. And an important one. But to understand the boy, that is superfluous. What is important is that he does feel this pressure.
Ultimately, you are right to point to the peer group’s objectification as the problem. But before we even get to that, we need to talk about the dynamic between the boy and the peer group. The peer group could be sending much better pressures and the distortion would still be there.
What you’re getting at is understanding the boy, while I think what I’m getting at (I won’t answer for Indy) is understanding the forces that mold the boy.
That relationship between peers and individual is always present — it’s present as a relationship when you’re 15 and it’s present as a relationship when you’re 50. If you’re lucky and/or wise, you learn to recognize it and work to minimize its influence on your thought processes. But you never, ever escape that social dimension — in some sense, while we do “grow up” a bit and learn to value ourselves on different levels, we face the same social dynamics that we did in high school.
So then the effects of that social dimension are vital, and in this case (and many, many others) they are molding the boy to act in a sexist manner. They will continue to do this for his whole life, though he may get better at recognizing aspects of it and changing that behavior.
“The peer group could be sending much better pressures and the distortion would still be there.”
That’s absolutely true. That distortion will never, ever go away. IMO, we never get to be truly “autonomous”. Just not possible.
But if the pressures were different — say, not rooted in sexism and objectification — then the actions, the attitudes, and the effects on all of the surrounding players (peer group, girls involved) would also be different.
“No one is actually behind some curtain somewhere pulling little levers to maintain the patriarchy. “
Also absolutely true. It’s maintained through subtle and not-so-subtle pressures placed on, in this specific example, boys through their peer groups — to be fair, we could use a lot of different situations here. The boys in question certainly aren’t pulling the levers. But they’re engaging in the process that reinforces the thing anyway, even unwittingly.
That’s why this is impossible for me, at least, to analyze without looking at the social dimension as well as the individual feelings going on. The two are in an infinite feedback loop.
You keep taking the concrete and making it universal.
No, I’m really not. I’m talking about the relationship between the individual and the larger social context, which is inextricable.
No one is actually behind some curtain somewhere pulling little levers to maintain the patriarchy.
I’m not saying that they are. That’s not how it functions. Think about language: no one sits down and makes up, like, English. It evolves over time, and along the way it acquires certain rules that eventually become pretty ingrained. Power structures function similarly. No one sits down and makes up the patriarchy, there is no Oz behind a curtain somewhere. Nonetheless, there are rules, and they are rigidly enforced, and their application is directly onto bodies, which is material.
These are just little boys and girls trying to fumble their way through their developing sexuality.
Of course they are! But they’re doing it inside a social system where men have way more power than women, and where boys damn well know that they will become men and girls will become women. Kids are confused, but they aren’t stupid. A lot of them know how it works even if they don’t use the college words to talk about it.
But yes, ultimately he is lying and besmirching her reputation to protect her from himself. And that is just the level of confusion that goes on in an existential sense among young people in these situations.
I know what he’s doing. You weren’t clear on it until I pointed it out to you. And now you’re dismissing it with “just the way it is” language. With which I strongly disagree. This is not “just the way it is”, we learn this shit. And if men aren’t willing to unpack how they’re learning it so we can make that stop, then it’s never going to stop.
Why do boys put so much pressure on each other to have sex? That is another question. And an important one.
Yes it is an important question, because the answer to it is part of the reason why boys are raping girls, and why men are raping women, and why we live in a rape culture that terrorizes women and keeps them subordinate to men. That question needs to be discussed immediately — that would be a great diary for a guy to do, I think, if the other men would agree to talk about it.
But to understand the boy, that is superfluous. What is important is that he does feel this pressure.
I totally disagree that it’s superfluous.
we need to talk about the dynamic between the boy and the peer group.
Yeah, and in order to do that, we have to understand boys, both as individuals and in groups, otherwise it’s all just nonsense.
That was the purpose of my asking you the specific questions I asked. If you answer them, I can try to show you where what I’m talking about is actually happening, but I can only do that through specific examples. Talking in generalities, not defining terms more specifically, not unpacking concepts, that approach won’t explain to you how to see what all the rest of us see that you don’t see. And it won’t teach us how to see what you do see that we don’t see.
Here is why it is superfluous.
Our hypothetical boy has done something that we might call ‘shitty’. He has lied about his girlfriend to his boy friends. Now, why did he do this?
Well, the prevailing answer here would have overlooked the subtleties of his mental process, the little blocks along the way.
Instead the focus would have been on the fact that his treating the girl like an object, a trophy, that he has no respect for her, that he identifies his self-worth solely through how he is viewed by his male peers, and that the dynamic of that is sexist.
But that is not really what happened. The boy just wanted the pressure to stop so he could have whatever kind of relationship he wanted to have without outside interference. If his friends are satisfied that he is in a sexual relationship they will stop razzing him and we won’t feel any pressure, and he can have a better relationship with the girl. In a way, he is trying to assert his autonomy.
Now, you put that as “he was trying to protect the girl against himself”. And on some level that is true. But more importantly, he was trying to protect his self, so that he would no longer feel unwanted coercion.
So, to the girl, and to outsiders, it looks like he is merely a braggart. It looks like he buys into the whole objectification of women thing. But, really, he is just trying to negotiate his way through an established fact…he is under pressure to score.
Why do I keep coming back to the boy and downplaying the culture that he is operating within? Because you keep focusing on changing the cultural dynamic, even though you admit that it won’t significantly change in your lifetime.
The cultural milieu is a given for every young boy growing up in America today. So, every parent has to deal with that fact. Playing language games can play a part in making a child more self-aware. But, what is at the heart of the problem is the peer pressure. It is there. How to educate young boys to deal with it is the short-term problem that needs a solution.
But that is not really what happened.
But on some level that is more or less what really happened. And I already explained why upthread. I understand perfectly well that other dynamics were also at play, and that from a different perspective, something else happened. But the male perspective isn’t the one that gets to define the entire context. It just gets to define what the context is like from a male point of view. What I explained upthread is a female point of view on this context, and it is just as valid as your read. I don’t see these as mutually exclusive, and I’m not sure if you do, if you’re simply privileging the male perspective, or if you’re rejecting my interpretation for some other reason, but whatever, we are going to have to continue to disagree about it because I’ve seen enough compelling evidence to understand that what I’m talking about is at least generally correct.
I appreciate everything you said about male perspectives on these issues. It was very informative. I really hope to see some of the men here at the blog discussing the kinds of questions that came up in this thread amongst themselves about all these pressures and how they function, that would be awesome.
I’m not privileging the male perspective. At issue is what the motivation is for the date rapist. And how might parents, or teachers, or social policy react to those motives in order to reduce the incidence of date rape?
So, from my point of view, you have to get inside the head of the average young boy and see what is there.
If you satisfy yourself that the problem is endemic and all-pervasive in a some kind of larger cultural narrative…and that narrative cannot be changed any time soon, then you have no answer in the short-term.
But, if you take the narrative as a given, at least for now, you can still attack the problem of the way a boy relates to the narrative.
On one level, the two approaches merge and can be seen to work in concert. Educating young people about the narrative can be done at the same time that you warn young people not to allow themselves to be defined by their peer groups, but to have the courage to express their autonomy.
But, if you are a parent, you would do better to focus on the latter. For example, you could tell your son never to lie about how far he has gotten with a girl in order to try to impress his friends, or in order to get them to stop pressuring him. And explain it in a way similar to how I have explained it.
To me, that is why we need a male perspective to this dialogue, because otherwise it seems to become a despairing exercise in changing the culture. The culture ain’t changing anytime soon. So, the emphasis should be on individual kids working their way through the culture.
In my opinion.
I think we’re doing a lot of talking past each other.
If you satisfy yourself that the problem is endemic and all-pervasive in a some kind of larger cultural narrative…and that narrative cannot be changed any time soon, then you have no answer in the short-term.
If this is what you think I’m saying, then you’re not understanding me at all. Equality is one of my primary political goals, and I think that drastically reducing rape (assuming eliminating it entirely is probably not possible) is a fundamentally necessary step toward equality, and I think we can make plenty of progress toward those goals in a relatively short period of time.
For example, you could tell your son never to lie about how far he has gotten with a girl in order to try to impress his friends, or in order to get them to stop pressuring him.
I agree that this would be helpful.
And explain it in a way similar to how I have explained it.
As long as you don’t use the explanation that objectifies and/or erases women, fine. But the trouble is that men often think their behavior is “protective” when it is really “oppressive”, like I pointed out upthread, and that’s another big thing that needs to change. Men need to listen to women for how to play this part of it, and they have not been listening.
To me, that is why we need a male perspective to this dialogue, because otherwise it seems to become a despairing exercise in changing the culture.
I completely agree. We need both male and female perspectives.
That’s why I was asking you specific questions that I know are relevant to the dynamics, which I have studied in depth, and that’s why I keep encouraging the men here to start diaries of their own and have conversations about this where men’s perspectives can emerge.
Now we are getting to it, the hub of the argument. This is the place (I have had these discussions for years) where the men usually drop away. It takes a huge hop up the plateau to realize that women are objectified tools of the patriarchy, but the much bigger leap is to the uncomfortable conclusion that men, too are helpless in their passive, blind allegiance to male supremacy.
Accepting this truth requires men to reinvent themselves as fully human, and defy a power structure that has dominated human culture for thousands of years.
Good luck, Indy.
Heh, I’m just dumb enough or naive enough or whatever else enough to think we’re not all helpless, susanw. I think we can improve our general station, if we get it the hell together and start working on re-definitions. I don’t much expect to live to see it, but I think it’s worth the work anyway.
I guess this is as good as a place as any to tell you that I’ve really appreciated your comments in all these threads.
And I yours, Indy.
I sometimes lose sight of all the progress that has been made while I look ahead to what still needs to be done. Remember those Congressmen laughing at the very notion that women be given equal protection under the law, when sex was added to civil rights legislation in order to scuttle the bill ?
Compared to the sixties, we have come a long way.
This is it, Booman. This is the whole ball of wax. Belonging and being accepted by the group is the lynchpin.
It is much more pronounced in the teen years because girls are becoming women and boys are becoming men. Each person has to choose the kind of person he/she will be.
If the peer group (that is culture, history, society, religion, regional mores, and all the sub groups that influence our image of what we have to be to survive and succeed) has narrow, rigid forms, the pain of conforming is terrible, as is the risk of opting out. You were shown another model of how to be a man, and you made a choice, but I bet it wasn’t easy.
My only disagreement with you is that this problem ages out. You are who you are today because of the choices you made, not because of the passive passage of time. There are many, many men who didn’t have your courage and strength of character; they went along as boys, and became the men they were expected to be. Time has not changed that.
I understand that.
And when a man beats his wife, he’s usually not doing it because he thinks he is a sexist. He thinks he’s doing it because: she deserves it, he’s angry, she fucked up, he’s stressed out, this is the only way he knows how to process anger, etc. etc. etc.
Any singular act isn’t necessarily sexist in intent, but when you pile one on top of another on top of another ad infinitum, and when so many men commit these same acts against so many women — and then systematically devalue women who’ve been “scored upon” — the result is a sexist culture where men have more power and women have less power.
Of course it’s a “combination of insecurity and peer pressure and self-centeredness”, but what you need to understand is that that’s what it is from your perspective. From a woman’s perspective, it doesn’t fucking matter whether a man intended to be a sexist pig, or that treating her as an object wasn’t really “about her” (in his own mind).
Just the same way that if someone runs you over on purpose or they run you over on accident, you’re still just as run over, whether a man intends to be a sexist or just apes one unintentionally, the effects are the same for women. And once women have told men about it, then it stops being accidental. It starts being some kind of “on purpose”.
Well, i think it runs the gamut, actually. Certainly, it is a well known fact that alcohol will lower inhibitions. So, guys definitely look to have alcohol with girls, to lower the girl’s inhibitions as well as their own. This is what bar culture is all about, although it is always fraught with dangers. But, I never had a guy tell me to use this as a strategy to overcome some resistance or reluctance from a girl. It happens though. Definitely. More often it is simply a matter of making fun of someone for being a virgin, or for not being able to score. The usual response is to lie. Guys tell tall tales about their sexual exploits. But this same peer pressure is obviously a big part of what pushes young men to pressure young girls. And it destroys intimacy, it brings outside pressure into what should be a private one-on-one relationship.
And I think in some cases, it is a reaction to this pressure that leads to these rapes. What I am not certain about is what it is that distinguishes the people that commit rape vs. the people that would never consider it.
In either case, though, there is an outside dynamic at play. The boy is not looking treating the girl as a partner, but as a source of status. It’s a very limiting thing. It’s very destructive.
I am not sure how much these group dynamics are driven by the media and adults and role models, and how much they are just more typical of the type of strange culture of teenagers.
Overcoming this type of peer pressure though is tougher, I think, than any of us would like to believe.
“But this same peer pressure is obviously a big part of what pushes young men to pressure young girls. And it destroys intimacy, it brings outside pressure into what should be a private one-on-one relationship.”
I think this is absolutely true, except that I disagree with you that it is only an outside pressure. Because if you look at this in terms of the effects, over time, that that “outside pressure” has on somebody’s attitudes as a whole, to me it becomes clear that the point at which this becomes a problem is the point at which that pressure is internalized and starts to be used to define, in this case, the sexual role of the young women to the young men — no longer complicated individuals in their own right, but means to an end. I think it’s overly optimistic to say that all of that internalized crap simply goes away when one hits “maturity”, even if we get better at questioning it (something I think most people never do, BTW).
Now take that specific example and superimpose pressures not unlike it that happen from birth.
well, it gets tricky at that point. Not just men, but also women, feel better about themselves if they feel attractive. A lot of men discover sometime in their late 30’s or early 40’s this great inner need to prove to themselves that they are still attractive and they start to do crazy things. This is what makes up the heart of the mid-life crisis (along with the realization that you have passed the point where you could chart a different career or path in life).
It is very internalized in men that their self-worth is wrapped up in their ability to attract women. The difference between a 40 year old and a 17 year old though are great. A 40 year old will have a much more broad definition of what it means to be desireable than whether they can merely ‘score’. Scoring may not even be the point, but proving to themselves that they could if they wanted to. A lot of loutish behavior by husbands is explained by this.
But again, woman also have a lot of these same characteristics. It’s natural to want to be attractive.
So, sorting that out from some kind of paternalistic culture is not that simple.
Sure, everybody wants to be attractive. We all deal with that in different ways.
But there is a gendered dynamic going on in that, too, and that’s where the power tends to come in. Men tend to define their attractiveness, first off, on — as you’ve said — their ability to “score”. Now, if they “can’t score”, what gets questioned? Their manhood. Meaning that it is not just “attractive” men who score more, but an intrinsic part of “masculinity” to have a lot of sex — meaning further that, in our binary culture, if you’re not having lots of sex, you’re more “feminine”, not just more “unattractive” — and femininity is something no man ever wants to be lowered to. There’s no way to divorce this from gender.
What my point really is is that these are broad dynamics that you can’t escape, no matter what your individual opinions on things might be.
This comment reminds me of male prison populations and how very similar dynamics are in play.
In prison, it’s not about attractiveness, it’s about power. (You could make a decent argument that even outside of prison, it’s not really about attractiveness, it’s really about power, but I’m not going to drag Foucault into this unless I have to.) Performance of a certain kind of masculinity is required to gain and keep power, and it’s brutal. But it’s basically the same sort of thing — the men simply turn some of the other men into women, and then use very similar bullying/social control tactics up to and including rape to keep the whole thing together.
It’s a system of hierarchized power via gender performance and gender policing.
We all agree, and some of us know from experience, that boys have these feelings and desires. In fact, girls have them too, which is why, leaving out all moral and ethical considerations, not to mention the question of distaste, it is simply unecessary to force attentions on a lady. There are today, as there have been in any age, no shortage of ladies who say “yes,” so unless one is in love, in which case he is certainly not going to impose himself on the object of his affection, but if he is simply experiencing these strong youthful desires, it does not require so much effort to politely take leave of the young lady who refuses, and move on to one who will welcome the attentions.
This is objectification. This is a major part of ‘the problem’. (It’s somewhat misleading to refer to it in the singular, since it really is a whole group of intertwined problems.)
And I don’t know why you seem so focused on the teenage years when you extend your analysis past giving an example. That’s when a part of it gets layed down, for sure, but the process of messaging and learning to hook these concepts all together starts much earlier than that, and it never really stops, it just changes according to a person’s choices and experiences.
Also: what Spit said about internalizing all of these pressures, and the effect that eventually has on someone’s psyche — which messages and which effects depend on how your body gets categorized in a variety of ways, according to sex & gender, race, disability, etc.
“is that is never reflected how I looked at women, or what I wanted out of a relationship. Sometimes it made me act like a jerk, but I felt like crap for acting like a jerk.”
But you still “acted like a jerk” (your words, not mine; I actually don’t know), and the other guys you knew and the girls you were treating like a jerk were affected not by your hidden inner feelings, but by the way you acted on the outside. Actions, by the way, that were apparently influenced by social pressure — both on you via your friends, and on the girls you were dealing with via the rest of the world’s idea of “attractiveness” or whatever it was.
Consider, for a minute, the social relationship between you and them — them likely wanting to be wanted by you, and you holding, therefore, all the power in that relationship — if I’m reading that wrong, please correct me. Point being, no matter what your internal attitudes as an individual, that dynamic is very gendered, and has nothing to do with your individual opinions.
I think that this is largely very common, BTW — that people’s actions in complex social situations tend not to fully reflect how they actually feel about things, but instead reflect how they want to be seen as feeling about things. That’s one way the social fucks with you, and fucks with others through you.
And I think you’re right that some of the more surface-level stuff is something that most people grow out of. On the other hand, I know a lot of people — men and women — who talk about sex in terms of men fucking women and never the other way around, say. That may seem small, but it speaks to a larger and pervasive attitude about who has the power in a sexual relationship — again, a dynamic that involves men, but that is built around broad participation that includes women, too.
I have to admit that I was deeply disappointed to find out that you were one of those guys, but I’m heartened that you learned from your friend. I gave you a four because I truly respect that you shared that bit of history about yourself in the midst of such a sensitive topic. (Always the “crowd pleaser” ;^)
In some ways, I think I might understand some of where you’re coming from. Starting in 8th grade, I was in advanced math classes, so – during my junior year I ended up in a calculus class with a bunch of seniors. (And those seniors happened to be all the really, really popular guys from the football and hockey teams.) But I understood my ranking in the food chain, and knew I’d never be “date worthy” to any of them.
With that in mind, I wanted to fit in somehow with this great group of guys, so I reverted to my tried and true class “antics” which immediately earned their laughter and “respect”. Up until then, I had consistently made the honor roll . . . but I soon found out it was far more fun to fit in with the popular guys through my humor. (Truth be told, by that time I realized that I had no business being in any advanced math classes, and I had only signed up for it based on the “status” of being in a class with older kids. So my antics also allowed me to hide the fact that I truly sucked at that level of math.)
Anyway, I had found a way to get in good with the really, really popular guys, the ones I could safely go out with in a group, riding around the back roads with 3 to 5 of them and just me, while we had a few beers and smoked a few joints. They didn’t ignore me at school (why bother, I wasn’t a threat, because they didn’t view me in a sexual way. And, they must have enjoyed my company because they sought it out without getting anything else in return). They were genuinely good friends, who made me feel special, safe and protected. (The same guys who listened and supported and helped me through the rough times after my personal ordeal, while my female friends left me twisting in the wind.) Heck, I had more damn fun with those guys because I could let my guard down, be myself and just have fun – because sex never entered the equation (no matter how many substances may have been involved in our outings).
I honestly don’t think those guys would have thought any less of me if I had aced that class – they were all bright guys and they knew I was no bimbo. I guess we each just do what we need to do in order to survive that hellish nightmare known as high school.
(In response to your inquiry, I was 16, and the monster was in his early to mid twenties. I later found out he was a notorious predator.)
Actually, Booman, that sounds like an apt description of just about every ‘women’s studies’ class and/or panel or lecture I have ever attended that has been ‘led’ or ‘offered’ by men.
Aside from that though, if you take seriously my very serious suggestion that rape is indeed a men’s problem, one that only men can solve…it really is MEN who need to be talking about this.
What makes men rape?
What, more importantly, makes so many men think that rape is a WOMEN’s issue?
Why do men need women to bring up the subject?
Do men ever talk about rape (in a serious, problem-solving way) amongst themselves?
If not, why isn’t rape something men tend to address on their own (unless of course the subject is related in some way to the sexual abuse of boys?)
Who and where are the rapists in our society? (If one in four women will be raped in their lifetimes, who are the rapists?)
Is there anything men can do to ‘get them off the streets’? If so, why aren’t they doing it?
Excellent, excellent questions there, Stark. Communication can move mountains, whether it happens more like an earthquake or more like an erosion process, it will happen.
Wish I had some answers.
But the questions I pose relate very much to something you said upthread:
I agree with your assessment.
I think men need to think more about that.
But then again, this is the person who is still sitting here (weeks later) pretty much fuming over a statement Booman made about knowing a high-powered ‘millionaire’ gangbanger (personally): I keep sitting here asking myself, “So you know a gangbanger. Personally. What prey tell are you doing to get that motherfucker off the street: either by challenging him to take his ill-gotten millions and transfer them into a legitimate business that will serve the community, or by calling the fucking COPS and getting the bastard thrown in jail.”
I don’t know, but here in my neighborhood, once we have identified who the gangbangers are, we try to get rid of them. Either by persuasion, or, as a very last resort, getting them incarcerated. Because gangbanger/drug dealers are not good for the community–I don’t care how much goddamned money they have.
The same applies to rapists.
But I know we’re getting into issues of “personal responsibility” for which my personal perspectives are likely to be in the minority here.
Personally, I think all rapists (Catholic priests who abuse children included) should be castrated–in so many instances, the ‘after effects’ of rape essentially have the effect of ‘castrating’ the victim, rendering her pretty much unable to lead a normal sex life–so castration, to me, looks like the punishment to fit the crime.
I definitely think that we women do not really understand men’s sociology nearly as well as we could. I also think that’s sort-of built in to the patriarchy. If it were more predictable, which men are going to rape us and which men are not, then men’s collective power would lessen. This is a simple fact, and this is how the hierarchy operates.
And to try to keep things clear, I am not saying that you, as an individal man, has ever sat there and plotted to be any particular kind of enabler so that you could have the extra power you gain when women are forced to live in a rape culture. I am saying that you, as an individual man, have completely blown off various feminist analyses of rape culture — for example, certain concerns regarding how language constructs concepts and hierarchies — because you don’t agree with the analysis, and yet, you had no fucking idea how pervasive this problem is. You are stunned to realize even the edges of it, and thus you couldn’t have logically dismissed those analyses. I suspect that you dismissed them, at least in part, because you were unaware of the extent of the problem and from your perspective, those analyses looked a little nuts.
And maybe the analyses are wrong, maybe they are half-right, I don’t really know. I only know how it looks from my perspective, and I can tell you from experience that men who don’t use words like “pussy” as an insult are men who are far less likely to rape women. There is something to it, somewhere. Maybe it’s as simple as respect; maybe it’s as deep as something like neuro-lingual processing where connections are actually made in the brain between a concept and its label; probably it’s some combination of those things/scales. And whenever we talk in generalities, we all kinda sound like bad anthropologists, it’s pretty hard to avoid that unless you’re actually a good anthropologist. š
I hope you know I’m not picking on you by saying any of this. I actually think you’re more receptive than a lot of men about it, because at least you keep coming back to the conversations. That’s probably both brave and crazy of you to do, and I appreciate the effort from all the men who make it.
We don’t have to imagine a large panel of men talking to each other about why women are the way they are.
That is the history of the world.
I have to admit that this made me guffaw.
I just had to let you know that.
Thanks, Spit.
Not too many laughs today.
I feel years of anger and sorrow pouring out of the marrow of my bones.
Oh, mind you, it was a bitter, sneering kind of guffaw. But those are the kind that usually get me through my day.
a little bit of thanks — for pushing many of us to the brink where we had to tell our stories.
He’s still an asshat though…
And I wonder, if these stories had been shared several months ago, maybe a few folks at the Orange Empire would’ve understood the deeper meaning of the “pie ad”, and wouldn’t have summarily dismissed the “sanctimonious women’s studies set”…
I made exactly that plea, but it was too late. People were gone, and I dont’ think the person who we wanted to listen was going to listen at that point.
humongous diary over there with one woman talking about being raped, and others chiming in.
One aspect: There are statistics. One I remember is that a lot of young teens who’re getting pregnant in inner cities, it’s men who’re WAY too old to be involved with them. Say, 23-28 on 13-16. Just creepy. AND, a lot of the men who’ve fathered babies with one girl, have with a number of girls. That is — one jerk ruining a lot of young women.
This diary discusses the “girls have value if some man is paying attention to them” — that’s what the men play off of. Sounds dumb, but practically a reflex in younger women. And it’s SO exciting and you feel SO mature if it’s an older man! What a score! Maybe your peers are just dating boring middle-schoolers.
Second aspect: I married mid-30’s and boy should I have known better than to marry the person I did. I lasted 4 years. No physical violence, but he was so darned incompetant and messed up, his MO was to find women who could support him. Really a 7-year-old in adult clothing. He was mean, verbally agressive, way too much of the time.
That was my FINAL innoculation in responding to idiots. I mean, it doesn’t matter how many men would like to be in an abusive relationship with me now, I would just laugh. There is no place in me they could hook. So in that sense, for me, it’s the matter of being more discerning of character.
I project that other women from other environments learned how to make better choices about which men to hook up with when they were younger. Superficially our home was perfect, but very intellectual. I have cousins who married wonderful people. In my nuc-family, we just weren’t given a road map for that, for whatever reason.
In my case it was all older men. Older men w/ young children of their own, with wive. The teacher was probably old enough to be my grandfather. The boss had children the same age as me — teenage. The brother of my bestfriend was the youngest, but seemed old to me, as I was a pre-teen and he was in his last year of highschool.
I think that young girls are easy prey — once a woman grows into herself some, she is not so naive and easily manipulated or pulled into uncomfortable situations.
In every instance for me, I was doing nothing that would be considered risk-taking or asking for it: attending class at school, babysitting, sleepover w/ my school chum, traveling w/ my boss to a work assignment… But, in all these situations you assume an inherent trust relationship between adult and child will be upheld. That the inherent power an adult holds over the child will not be used for nefarious purposes.
A young girl learns from these situations never to trust older men. To never be alone w/ them. To read signs as the others have said. For a time, in my teen years and early 20s I felt that every man except for my father and grandfathers were predators.
Also, I’m sure there is some sort of paedophilia involved here — these men going after young girls would not be sexually attracted to older women, and so the threat decreases as one ages.
Child victims may have an added advantage of being easy prey, but I can assure you, no normal man, no matter how old, has the slightest interest in intimate contact with a child. The very idea of such a thing is just as abhorrent to a normal man as it is to a normal woman.
People who have that sickness need help, and they need to get that help in a setting where there are no children.
Your feelings of distrust of older men are natural and understandable, but I hope you will try, for your own sake, not to let the sick individuals who have touched your life keep on touching it by coloring your feelings about any group.
Ductape, I wish you were correct in this, but you are not. Many men who are predatory toward children ALSO have sexual feelings and involvement with adults, and their sexual involvement with adults is not necessarily deficient. What you say is true of some who prey on children, but not all, by any means.
That’s not to say that people who have sex with kids are healthy mentally or sexually – they aren’t. But they are not all exclusively interested in kids.
I’m going to say more about this topic in one of my upcoming mental health diaries.
What I am saying is that if any adult’s sexual interests, preferences, etc. include children, that individual is a pedophile.
Oh, absolutely. They are pedophiles.
My point was just that many pedophiles are not exclusively attracted to children. In fact (sadly), some become involved with children when their primary sexual interest, e.g. spouse, usually, is sick, gone, or otherwise unavailable to them. And that, plus extremely low self-esteem and huge self-delusion, can sometimes result in pedophila creeping in.
Most children are sexually abused by someone who either is “welcomed into the house with open arms”, or who is a member of the household, or a well-known neighbor. The ordinary visible behavior of these people offers few if any clues as to whether they prey upon children deliberately.
We have had a couple of stepfather victims tell their stories here in the last few days.
The famous actress who told her story was abused by an uncle.
In some cases, it is the child’s own father!
In fact, I have read studies that indicate that family members are the most common abusers.
I will defer to your knowledge regarding possible causes etc of this disease, but what can be done to reduce the incidence? As far as I am aware, there is no cure, but the increase in recent years, and not just in the US – makes me think that there are societal factors that cause it to manifest itself more, or do you think that it was always at the same level, but now people are beginning to talk about it more?
This is a matter of some debate among mental health types.
Personally, I think there is something of a recent increase (recent = since 1950 or so), but not as much as the rise in sheer numbers reported. [I’m not certain if there are any good data from countries outside of the U.S., U.K., Canada, and some parts of Western Europe). I suspect incest and other forms of pedophilia were always present, but shoveled under the rug, rarely reported,especially incentuous acts. Sex was much more a forbidden topic until the past few decades.
The causes of the increase that I do think is there are multifold. I have some opinions, but little evidence. I’ll just say that American/western culture has changed quite extensively in the last 50 years, and I think this has played some part overall. And if I say more, I’ll start stepping onto the soapbox, which at this hour, isn’t safe!
I’ve got a number of really wonderful men in my life now whom I love and trust very much. And I’m no longer a child, and so don’t feel the same fear — more disgust and sadness, but not fear for my own person. But, sometimes I’ll see a man watching a young girl (like at a hockey game or at the mall) and I’ll wonder if he is thinking of her sexually. Our society sexualizes young girls, as if it’s totally innocent. It may be innocent to some, but I know it’s not. And all I can think is that it is encouraging these monsters. I don’t think I’ll ever lose that intuitive, internal questionning. It’s embedded pretty deep in my psyche.
“Damn! Now if we’d had HER on our team back in ’32 we would have beat the crap out of Canada.”
Thank God, most people are not pedophiles. But the ones who are present such a danger that parents – and the children themselves – cannot afford to take chances.
At the same time, you don’t want to deprive yourself, or your daughters if you have them, of the benefits of healthy friendships with older men, or fear us as a group, etc.
It is a delicate balance, and while again, most people are not pedophiles, even old men š but it has become more prevalent I think, so much so that it is no longer advisable for adults to express normal and natural affection for children, to hug them or pat their heads or especially put one on your lap!
I have heard even teachers in schools say it is difficult for them, if a child is crying, or sad, the natural instinct for any adult is to pick that child up and comfort him. But today, teachers cannot afford to do that, lest someone “get the wrong idea.”
That is sad. For the adults, and even more for the children themselves, who, like their parents, must be always watchful for anything that looks funny.
And the irony is, that all that watchfulness and protection, necessary though it is, results in depriving the children of receiving sincere and innocent affection from adults outside their immediate family.
This is a change I have witnessed happen. A few decades ago, if I saw a child fall from his bicycle, I would not think twice before picking him up and making sure he was OK. Today I would not dare. I would only ask him, from a distance, if he was hurt, where is his mother, can he move his arms and legs, shall I call 911?
If I saw a pretty child with his mother in the park, in bygone days, I might pat the child’s head, ladies might even ask the child for a kiss. Not today. It would be suspect even to say “what a pretty little girl.”
Thus, pedophiles, and the increase in the disease, harm children that they never touch, never even see.
(and I know many people find the idea of patting children’s heads offensive. I am sorry. I am old. It was not always considered offensive)
is brought home vividly to me when I travel with my children to places like China, Vietnam, South Korea.
People love to touch other people’s babies and small children. And in cultures where fear of pedophilia is not widespread, strangers feel welcome to connect with small children in loving ways, speaking that universal language of love, warm smiles and innocent caresses.
In Vietnam, every time we walked into a nicer restaurant, waitstaff would greet us, take my then-2yo son out of my arms, and basically disappear with him for the duration of our meal! You can imagine how I felt as a nervous American mother the first time that happened. But he loved the attention, and I am sure it reinforced in his developing mind the idea that the world is a safe and loving place, in which he can expect adults to keep him safe and happy.
Of course pedophilia happens in every culture. Of course we must protect our children by vigilantly supervising those who spend time with them. But you are right — we all have lost SO MUCH of value by injecting fear and suspicion into every adult-child relationship.
that “the world is a loving and safe place,” that adults are large but affectionate creatues who love you on sight, delighted that you have arrived to share their planet, and vie with each other to be the next to hold you, cuddle you, toss you in the air, give you a kiss and a treat, is so necessary for building an emotional foundation of love for one’s fellow beings, it is perhaps the kindest and most necessary lie that children should be told.
How tragic that it is has become such a big lie that in so many places, they cannot even be told it any more, cannot be taken out of our arms by strangers and off somewhere else where the kitchen staff will all have to have a turn holding him and making him laugh while your dinner ingredients cool their heels and someone hurries out to you with extra appetizers, sorry for the wait.
The cultures where this is no longer possible have lost something very precious, and the biggest losers are the smallest of us, who will grow up with a sense of wariness and dread of others instead of acceptance, openness and love.
I can’t wait to read it! Always love reading your stuff Duct… ;~)
(Seriously, your comment above is a really good one. But one that I could never see outside my dreams of a perfect world.)
I have a friend who knew of a dad who raped more than one of his children’s babysitters. I don’t think his acts were because the young women were very young, as much as because they were good candidates for him to exert power and restore for him a sense of control. I think what “ages” for these persons is access to relativel powerless females.
I’ve also thought that in my case, that they got off on the fear — that they enjoyed how scared I was.
to understand.
It’s a good thing to do. Thank you for hanging in.
And I must admit I am absolutely haunted by this thought today — how does a loving parent raise sons not to rape, not to objectify women?
I am devoted to my sons. I love them and find them absolutely precious and beautiful. I have a great relationship with both the 16yo and the 4yo. I try every day to teach them responsibility and respect even as I nurture their self-esteem and their trust in my love.
How can I be sure that I’m nurturing the self-esteem, not cultivating self-centeredness and entitlement? As I work to meet my son’s needs, how can I be sure that he isn’t getting from that the message that women exist to serve his whims?
There is more than self-centeredness going on with the rapists in the stories we’ve been hearing this week. There is a fundamental disconnect between action and consequence, and a complete lack of any shred of real empathy, any awareness that there is a person attached to that vagina he wants. The knife at the throat followed by “Why are you crying?” The forcible intercourse with a virgin followed by spreading rumors that she’s a lying slut. This shit does not compute. It’s not an unfortunate misunderstanding, a these-things-happen shrug of the shoulders. It’s deliberate and monstrous and CRIMINAL. I want to believe that this attitude is so far off the spectrum of normal age-appropriate immaturity that any good mother would see it coming from miles off, like the headlight of a train, and have time to pull the brake.
But … if no parent can completely protect a daughter from being victimized by sexual violence … how can a parent be sure that a son is inoculated against playing his societal role somewhere along that same spectrum?
I’m sure that you’re doing a good job. Parents need to teach empathy, always. (And not this shit.)
Yes, it is deliberate. As you know, I’m sure, this is why feminists are always saying that we live in a rape culture.
I am not a parent, and I can’t even imagine the hell you all go through worrying that your children might be either victims or perpetrators. It’s not like we can really protect them from the culture at large. We can only try to pass on our values and hope for the best. I respect decent parents more than just about any other category of people, you all have the hardest job.
with some of the same thoughts and worries…
as a mom. Don’t want to take over this thread worse — I’m just so darned passionate about all this stuff.
Please come read. It’s good, I promise.
from the worst of sexual violence, you know?
I mean none of the people diarying here about being raped at a young age had parents who were talking to them about how to avoid it. In practical, useful terms. In some cases, the parent was the perpetrator.
I think talking clearly without fear with girls can go a long way. I was tongue-tied at the thought, went to library, checked out a ton of books, read parts, got the “aha” moment, so now I can do it.
The books said, “Make it like talking about anything else.” So now if the cool song comes on the radio and the teen’s singing along, I say, “Oh great, they met last night and now they’re doin’ it behind the stadium. Great relationship, yaright. Cripes they don’t even know each other. Zero relationship there.”
The kids can “Oh, LookingUp!” me, but it won’t shut me up. I have the pics sent around by the sheriff of guys who’ve molested who’re released back into the community on the side of my frig. I talk to the kids about it. Who looks the scariest? Who looks sexy? Who looks like Santa Claus? What would you do if? I listen, listen, listen to what they say.
“You can always tell me, you can always come here to be safe.”
my dad said to him, “Son, we men don’t hit women. You can never hit your sister, or any other woman again.”
Before that we’d rolled around like little puppies, fighting at will, though getting along most of the time. I thought it was the most unfair thing in the world at that time — I was 2 years older and had had the advantage in size and strength. My dad was WISE — he stopped my brother beFORE our strengths evened out, before my brother could have a taste of having the advantage over me.
That’s all it took, folks, just making that rule and having it stick. Initiating my brother, at that young age, into a proud tradition of men’s culture, where men respect women, respect the size and strength difference, and aren’t violent.
Personally, I’d really prefer it if we changed the rule we teach kids to, “We don’t hit each other.” Period, full stop. But kudos to your Dad for doing what was probably the best he knew at the time, and certainly better than others were doing.
Totally agree with this, though I simultaneously wish we’d get lots of kids to learn the basics of self-defense. “Know how to fight if you have to, and don’t fight unless you have to” should, IMO, be the rules for both sexes.
As a bit of an aside, I was a very violent little kid — and I saved a special, particularly brutal piece of myself for the boys who wouldn’t hit me back because I was a girl. To my 7 year old mind, that was basically just saying I was an opponent beneath them (actually, I still think that’s what this says even if its unintentional).
Totally agree on the self-defense. After I posted I wondered if I should have made a sentence about it being okay to hit back, lol, because I think that actually keeps a lot of females from defending ourselves sometimes. As you well know, we all get taught that we’re ‘not supposed to’ do that.
For sharing your story. It seems we all have a story or two, and that is very sad. But we are also showing the ways we have overcome what has happened to us… And that is very good and enpowering… Thank you sweetie. And hugs to you.
Like a lot of the women here, I have multiple stories about being sexually victimized. I focused on this one for a few different reasons, but mostly because of the aftermath. Meeting the young woman who would become one of the best friends I ever had, and her teaching me about defining myself, was such a critical part of my ability to start a healing process.
It’s so much harder to fight against something you haven’t healed from yet. You can lose your mind.
{{shermanesque}}
and let you know how special you are.
All the women that have stepped forward with their stories are courageous and strong. We also are tearing open long buried wounds and exposing them to more healing.
Thank you IndyLib for stepping forward and sharing. Consider yourself hugged and loved.
Oy! Thanks for telling your story IndyLib and many year later thanks to the friend who was there for you. My intial response to this post has grown into a diary of its own which I just posted. So I’ll just stop here with electronic hugs and love to you, and let that diary speak to the other things I have to say.
one, thanks so much for sharing this; these things are incredibly important and far too rarely discussed in the open. And what always gets me about rape — every time I talk to women about my experiences with it — is the degree to which it is a powerful force both because many women have lived through it and because those who don’t have been taught, culturally, that it is To Be Perpetually Feared. If you want to really talk about women’s experiences, there’s no way to avoid the subject, not any more than you can avoid the reality that many, many women are terrified to go anywhere by themselves because they live with this perpetual fear.
two:
“He did not take your body. It is not his. You still own it. He did not take your pussy. It is not his. You still own it. You can do whatever you want with it.”
I really, really, really wish that somebody had said this to me a whole lot of years ago. Because it’s taken me until relatively recently to figure it out on my own.
I in no way want to minimize the seriousness of rape. But I do sometimes think that when we discuss it, as a culture, we tend to make it seem as though it is some sort of death-like event, even if it doesn’t have the “virginity” angle. What that does, while I understand that it is an attempt to appear to be taking the problem seriously, is send the message to those who have been raped that this has fundamentally changed who they are, that they are now essentially damaged goods. Which is some harmful bullshit, because it once again works to take away one’s power over the situation — this time not externally, but internally.
three:
it may seem obvious to say that rape is about gender, but I don’t think many people follow that line of thought beyond the surface. What rape seems to me to be about — and this could be entirely based on my experience — is the reaffirmation, violently, of how men and women are “supposed to” relate. So it’s unfortunately not good enough in my eyes to deplore rape; one has to deplore the entire power structure — the hierarchical gender system that’s in place of which rape is simply one of many symptoms. I could go way off on a million tangents here, but I’ll leave it alone because this is already way too long.
“He did not take your body. It is not his. You still own it. He did not take your pussy. It is not his. You still own it. You can do whatever you want with it.”
First of all, someone should have said that to you, and I’m sorry that they didn’t, and even though you are smart as hell and have figured it out on your own, I hope you will read the words again and consider that to be me saying it to you now. It is powerful, and you deserve to have it said to you.
I hoped to draw a good distinction in my essay and the following comments about how rape is really a setup just to maintain the power structure: Step 1. Convince women their chastity is their best asset. Step 2. Convince women that they’re “bad” if they have sex or enjoy sex. Step 3. Rape and sexually objectify females.
This is one of the primary mindfucks that creates the hierarchy in the first place. As women, if some man rapes us or if we enjoy consensual sex or want to seek it out, we can sometimes feel so bad or guilty that we consider killing ourselves and we don’t even know why. But this shit? This indoctrination all starts when we’re babies, before we even have language someone is swaddling us in pink or blue and using these words or those, that tone or a different one, and the whole thing perpetuates itself onto yet another generation. At least, that’s how I see it.
As you know, you and I share a lot of analysis about gender stuff already (and that includes a rejection of damn near the entire hierarchical structure), but I hope you won’t cut your voice off in here for any reason. Ramble on, Spit, if you’re up for it, always love to hear your voice. š
My network has been down for hours, and after 37 comments there’s nothing I can say that hasn’t been said, and more eloquently, by those above.
These last few days have been both eye-opening and sad for me as I’ve read these stories. They’ve also prompted at least one really good conversation between my daughter and me.
So, thank you Indy…and all the rest of you.
Thank you so very much. I think she did indeed come in from a parallel universe, never heard anyone talk like that before in my life.
Talk to the kids, talk to the kids. They need to hear stories like these, they need to know you’re available if they need you to talk about something like this. Let ’em know you can handle the tough stuff.
If you believe in true love, and I admit that I do, but only because of empiral evidence over more years than most peoples’ lives last, then virginity is something that happens when you fall in love. It has nothing to do with your physical anatomy, and certainly nothing to do with whether you have been the victim of violent crime. It has to do with your heart.
It also sounds like the young man who harmed you was mentally disturbed.
I am glad you have grown up to be such a courageous woman, and as with the other stories, all different, but also all with the common theme, I hope that young ladies will read it and take heart, and am I the only man here who also hopes that they will take a second look at the Michaels of the world?
Michaels are much more suitable boyfriends, and tend to grow up to be suitable husbands.
1. She was terrific. I fell in love with her. On some level, I am probably still in love with her.
2. Perhaps this is just a difference in terminology rather than actual meaning, but the boy who raped me was not mentally disturbed. He was troubled emotionally in a variety of ways, mostly relating to coming from a troubled family — all my friends, practically, came out of broken, abusive homes — and he probably could have benefited from some therapy. The guy he was friends with was definitely mentally disturbed.
3. Michael was doing fine for himself; he was dating one of my friends and they were quite happy together. š Last I read at my high school alumni website, he was happily married (to someone else) and enjoying life with his very adorable children.
You were strong at that age and still it happened. It’s almost as if your boyfriends group chose you and whoever else followed. There is one thing that I shared with Chris in high school and that was a bright budding self confidence as a woman. I think Tyler had a mental list of future women who needed taken down a notch and we both made that list. My daughter is incredibly strong within herself for her age…..was she chosen also?
Your story was very real to me, too. In fact, your descriptions of Chuck reminded me a great deal of the boy who raped me, and Tyler reminded me a great deal of the boy’s disturbed friend. So it was kinda reversed, but their characters sounded similar.
I see the likenesses too there.
Heavy on my mind were all the things I was afraid of losing, like freedom and school and soccer and my future, and worse, the things I thought I had already lost, like the most valuable thing a woman is told that she has, her sexual purity via her virginity, and thus nearly all of her self-worth and cultural value.
Can someone tell me what the fuck is up with hymen “restoration” surgery?!?!
I’m sorry to be OT but this is the sickest, most insane shit ever.
And maybe it’s not OT but just another example of how pervasive and sick this absolute OBSESSION is with sexual purity.
It’s not OT at all, AP. I think it’s a very predictable consequence of turning virginity into a fetish.
I’m starting to read more stories about it and I’m just absolutely horrified by it. I suppose it’s the intersection of perpetuating the cycle of violence AND profiting from it.
Just…disgusting.
And now back, fully on topic–you all are so brave to share your stories.
I’m in awe of you, I really am. Thank you.
The site said the hymen “may break with a tampon”. May? How on earth would you get one in w/out breaking it? But what would I know?
That is hilarious — also the ad saying that if the woman’s vaginal walls are tightened she may have more sexual pleasure. Whee!
Our society is completely off its rocker, isn’t it? Peak oil should cure a few fetishes like this….
I’m coming in here late b/c I couldn’t read at work today — my mind was whirling though, with thoughts of everyone.
Thank you for your story. And no, I don’t think we’ve heard enough stories if people still have stories they need to tell. I’m listening… and ready with big hugs! {{{Indy}}}
Indy, I salute you.
And I need to tell you that reading these diaries and comments, and (gasp!) seeing real women AND REAL MEN actually COMMUNICATING WILLINGLY AND OPENLY EITH EACH OTHER, about rape, well, I feel like I’ve walked through a mirror into some parralel universe I did not believe existed except in my dreams.
Do you all have ANY IDEA how incrediblE you are?
Scribe, these conversations in these kinds of mixed gender configurations and public political forums are a part of the debt that my generation (and those after me) owes to yours (and those before you) for all the amazingly difficult work you all did paving roads that were rockier than we could even imagine. I salute you in return, with deep respect and gratitude.
Thank you for that, Indy. Some day, with all thats happening again, it’s hard not to think it was all for nothing. This isn’t one of them.
You want a way to help men stop (or better, not start) objectifying women, you can’t do much better than this kind of cross-gender connection.
It’s been my observation that probably the single most significant predictor of attitudes towards women is whether males have friends who happen to be females. Mothers and sisters don’t seem to matter, but a man who has female friends will by and large see women as people — he becomes accustomed to thinking of them as such and the problem tends to start sorting itself out, at least on an individual level.
Of course there are exceptions, and a sociopathic personality will remain one regardless… but when you have friends on both sides of the fence, you tend to see that there are people on both sides.
Now how we get that into the general socialization matrix without making the problem WORSE, I don’t quite know yet. I’m still working on that, it’s on the list as the first thing to do after I become king of the world.
There was always some strange connection I felt towards, with you. Hearing your voice and sharing our stories on the phone confirmed that I met you via this pond in order to be able to learn more about myself by learning more about you š I love you.
I always felt like a walking contradiction.
Rape survivor YET… big time sassy, sexual love goddess š
Rape isn’t a “sexual act”. It’s a crime of rage and control.
If someone had hijacked my car – would that prevent me from driving ever again? no. Ithink I became more determined to OWN my body, my sexuality, my sensuality. myself.
As I had written in my diary – it wasn’t for pity and I damn sure didn’t want to feel weak or little.. Thank you for sharing your strength. We are strong. We’re here.
((((Indy))))))