Well, here I am, better late than never imnsho. So what is it that has kept me up late into the night, banging my ears and screeching incoherently? No, it’s not Bush. Nope, not my assine job either although that runs a close second.
It’s community. This one in particular.
Whaaaa! you are now screaming NO! Not more meta community conversations!
To you I say bah. Or maybe, yeah, no doubt I’m sick of them too.
Either way, if you’ve gotten this far then you have more time on your hands than is reasonable or you really enjoy my quirky sense of humour. Probably both.
Now on to my wisdom and glorious insight….
Some of you may have noticed that I haven’t been very active in the pond recently. Most probably have not.
Actually, the majority of you are probably wondering who the hell this spiderleaf person is to presume to lecture them on community or botany… but I digress. Or do I.
[I have been around you know. Lurking. Reading. Hit and run sporadic postings…. just so we’re clear that I’m not just pretending to know who you are or anything.]
Man, I should probably just call this post digression ‘r us or something… hmmm. anyhoo.
So what’s with all the fuss about community and the notion we have to “keep it” or “protect it” or “it ain’t what it used to be”. Well, for the most part, I know most of the active posters here on the site. Or those who used to be active and have now gone elsewhere. But pretty much, that’s a small subset of the number of registered users on the site. Probably not more than 100 or so people out of 4k. Really small percentage all told.
Hell, I might even be able to list them all here from memory (no, don’t worry, I’m not that intoxicated to get that sidetracked). So what’s my point you ask?
Well, it’s this.
Communities are, as a rule, no larger than 150 people. There are scientific studies to back that up. Ask the Pentagon if you want (or maybe the nice data analyst reading this post would be kind enough to post a comment and validate my research)… the military purposefully limits battalions to 200. After that order tends to break down and people start bitching.
Why? Because you can’t really know more than 150 people and care about their opinions, or have a sense of their character, beliefs or humanity.
For a good primer on this theory I suggest “The Tipping Point” by Malcom Gladwell. I’ll quote a paragraph from the book to illustrate my point.
“The figure of 150 seems to represent the maximum number of individuals with whom we can have a genuinely social relationship…”
Dunbar has combed through anthropological literature and found that the number 150 pops up again and again. For example, he looks at 21 different hunter-gatherer societies for which we have solid historical evidence, from the Walbiri of Australia to the Tauade of New Guinea… and found that the average number of people in their villages was 148.4. The same pattern holds true for military organization. “Over the years military planners have arrived at a rule of thumb which dictates that functional fighting units cannot be substantially larger than 200 men,” Dunbar writes….
It is still possible, of course, to run an army with larger groups. But at a bigger size you have to impose complicated hierarchies and rules and regluations… But below 150, Dunbar argues, it is possible to achieve these same goals informally…Then there is the example of the religious group known as the Hutterites, who for hundreds of years have lived in self-sufficient agricultural colonies in Europe and, since the early twentieth century, in North America. The Hutterites… have a strict policy that every time a colony approaches 150, they split it in two and start a new one…. “When things get larger than that, people become strangers to one another…
“What happens when you get that big is that the group starts, just on its own, to form a sort of clan.”… “You get two or three groups within the larger group.”
So what does that mean for our beloved Frog Pond? Not much really other than how we choose to label ourselves. (this would apply to ‘community’ blogs in general too) I tend to see blogs as a network of communities. Some with a small member base, in which case the community ‘elders’ set the tone and attract similar personality types, or those with complimentary skills or beliefs. Some with a larger community base, like dkos segment into cliques, or communities of like minded individuals who are in turn linked in to the broader network of cliques, or communities on the site. Quick test – how often do you find yourself giving the same group of people a ‘4’? Or responding to their comment? Or reading their diary (ahem, clique of spiderleaf is obviously immune from this test thank you very much).
Some of these cliques will clash with the others. All in all it’s much easier to police or deal with a conflict internally if you understand the perspective of the person you are interacting with. This is much more likely if it’s a person you’ve been chatting with in the Cafe everyday. Or hanging out in the Lounge with drinking your sorrows away… ummm… having meaningful conversations with.
You get what I’m saying.
We won’t all agree, even within our smaller communities. And the medium and technology makes this much more difficult to navigate. If I’ve never seen the twinkle in your eyes it’s much more likely I’m not picking up on it in your comment… unless we’ve interacted a lot in the past… and even then it’s not a guarantee.
We also have a unique thing going here whereas we’ve self-selected to join this community. I didn’t get an invite from a friend to go to a dinner party, start chatting with the social director of the group and the host and find myself invited back the next time. There really is no auditioning process for membership…. people either talk to you, or they don’t. Or maybe they do one day and not the other. Or maybe you don’t post at all and are really just eavesdropping on a conversation around the water cooler. In any case, the ‘group’ didn’t invite you in, you invited yourself in. And once you did, you brought your life history and experiences with you. And 9.5 times out of 10 it is not a history or experiences I share. I can relate to, sure, but we are not identical. We all didn’t go to UCLA and participate in Frosh week together. Or volunteer for the Sierra Club. Or have the same taste in music and literature. Nope, I have no idea where you’re coming from unless you tell me. And sometimes you’ll tell me something that to me, seems to come from left field and to you, was there all along.
See the problems inherent in this?
So, to make a long story short… and to continue on a theme I raised in catnip’s diary…
If we all stop worrying about making everyone ‘fit’ into our perception of what our community is and just realize we’re one big network, some of us closer to some more than others, and that we all have our own stuff going on… perhaps we can keep our smaller communities and continue to interact and learn from each other in the larger network that is BooMan Trib and the liberal blogosphere.
I know I don’t always agree with everyone, but I have stopped trying to make everyone fit into my ideal of the perfect liberal. Or human being. Because we are all fucked. And we all have horrible, painful, character changing and perception forming events in our past and present. And it would be exhausting for me to try and prepare my comments to make sure I don’t offend them all. I for one do not have the reverse gift of a DuctapeFatwa. So, if you get my goat, I may indeed get pissed off, I may tell you that I’m offended, and horribly so. But then I’ll walk away, go get some fresh air and realize that in the grand scheme of things that I don’t know you and you don’t know me. We’re just blips in the wide world of the internets. And if we can’t figure out how to have a conversation and not kill each other than I have no idea how I’m supposed to figure out how to hook the vcr up to the toaster…
Now onto the burning question… why did I write this now, when it’s not a hot topic in the community and I’m not likely to go shooting up the reco list while generating hundreds of comments? So that maybe, in a small way, if we think about things proactively rather than reactively, we don’t have to have those diaries up there and can talk about other stuff… well, one can hope can’t one? 😉
But enough about me, how you doin’?
And with that, I can now go back to lurking in peace.
And getting ready to watch 24.
🙂
My husband and I were just talking about this, in the wake of the Colbert frenzy. The thing about the internet, and about the communities within our part of the internet (note the collectives “our”, “within”, and “communities”), is this: Once, when some horrible travesty of a politician acted in an unconscionable way, you were pretty much left feeling isolated, unless your immediate family and friends thought as you did. If they did not, you felt doubly isolated.
With this thing, this corner of Blogostania, that is here, whatever it is, this new sort of association, you don’t. You do not have to feel removed from people of like minds. You have immediacy. You know that you aren’t crazy, that your view of the world isn’t different from all others, etc. And you see that your actions can be joined with others.
That’s a lot.
I imagine that the invention of mail had much the same effect in its time.
And in between times, people somewhat naturally try to carry on ordinary discourse as we do with our face-to-face friends and neighbors. Some here do that a lot, e.g. the Cafe. Others do not, possibly seeing no purpose in it, or no need to do so, or feeling it to be artificial, or simply having little time. It’s that sort of discourse that may be the strangest of all, being somewhat flattened, compared to normal, live, and in-person human interaction. And of course, lacking the fuller context of ongoing contact, the imblance of power and unseen influence, it is very easy to misunderstand, arouse anger that cannot be resolved, and take one’s cookies and go elsewhere.
true enough. That’s the power of these networks, or communities, the ability to reach out and touch someone somewhat like yourself 24/7. But of course that only works if you are both of a like mind on an issue for the most part… 😉
Not bad for a cult-leader.
I didn’t know about the 150 limit. I would have put the # lower. I bought the book “Tipping Point” about 5 years ago and still haven’t gotten around to reading it.
And, as long as you mentioned him, anyone heard from Ductape lately? I noticed he hasn’t been around in a while.
nope, haven’t seen him. although I have to say, mysterious absences can only seek to add to his mystique 😉
oh, and it’s a strange thing, I always avoided reading the book as well. I tend to steer clear of things that everyone else is claiming is ‘mind blowing’ or ‘revolutionary in thought’ etc. but recently it literally dropped in my lap and I gave it a shot. Quite interesting at this particular moment of my life for a variety of reasons. Don’t necessarily agree with everything posited, but I’d still recommend it.
Spiderleaf, Good to see you here.
Things tend to run in cycles and every few months there is, what would be called in the market, a correction. The correction acts simultaneously as a release of mounting tensions and a mechanism for realignment. Then things are more serene for a while until the next correction some months later.
True, this place has grown and there are new names on the screen. I myself don’t get to the cafe often enough to know others very well. Some move on, others have been here since the start.
It’s more like a living organism, always changing. Change or die. Uhh, I’m getting way to philosophical.
hey there boran2, good to see you as well… (meta topic – are there firm plans in place for june and the festival meet up?)
In terms of change, yeah, no doubt change is a constant. As it should be imo. But I think some change can be mitigated by recognizing the strengths and limitations of the medium. If we keep getting into spats with each other and separating off into increasingly smaller groups who get their backs up about the “other” groups we just didn’t see eye to eye with all the time, we won’t be a coherent unit affecting change. However, that’s not to say that every place is my home, nor even my neighbourhood pub. But I try to see the value in each interaction I have regardless of the UID or whatever.
Meh, I don’t know what I’m trying to say other than “no, we can’t all just get along all the time”. But that doesn’t mean we have to either. Conflict can help challenge a lot of assumptions and beliefs, and that can be a good thing… the whole change and growth as a constant… 😉
An organism, interesting concept. I still kinda gravitate towards the societal analogies, but that’s just me and how I like to arrange my world and scenarios 🙂
end stream of thought….
I hope to put up an east coast meetup diary tomorrow.
Oh goody! 🙂
Hi Spidey. You are right about different clans forming. After the last dustup here on Bootrib, I found myself torn between camps… so I withdrew myself from all of them. I have also been lurking a lot, I’m somewhat of a regular in the Newsbucket, but I’ve pulled back my personal interaction. I see only too clearly how quickly people can turn on you. I had to re-examine why I’m here. I love the free flow of information and ideas. I absolutely abhore how people aim for the jugular in the real kerfuffles… so I try not to show my jugular any more. Simple, huh? Interesting diary… thanks.
So, can I join your clique?
Flattery will, of course, get you everywhere… 😉
Come on in, the waters fine… although I think there may have been a coup or two since I last checked the member roles… oh, and supposedly I’m the last to know about the secret password…
Damn you! I was just about to ask that question!
I was starting to wonder where you were going with this, and starting to get suspicious that I’d disagree (with spiderleaf?! the horror!) when you started getting into anthropological analogies between ‘communities’ and BMT. And then you say this:
Well, that about hits the nail on the head, imo. We’d like to think that we’re one big community, and, we are in some ways. Hell, before the European Union had its constitution is was just the “European Community”. And they had more than 150 people! But, a lot of the misunderstanding that plays out here (and elsewhere) in the course of discussion seems to centre around what metaphor works best for this website. Is it a bar? Is it a public square? Is it someone’s dinner table at which I’m a guest? Is it a community?
Well, it’s a website, and the metaphors don’t quite work, and we (humans) are quite green at interacting in this medium. But, beneath the website is a bunch of people. BMT binds us together in a network. With a strong link out to that other place, and some other places too…
Geez, now I’m rambling like you; I think I might’ve accidentally joined your cult. 😉
Excellent post spidey, and definitely food for thought. Now, can’t we all just get along?
SpiderLeaf, thank you for this opportunity to share. The below was something I’ve been hurting with for some time. I was abotu to post it and saw your entry. Thank you. I hope this fits and doesn’t offend.
I’m in a bit of a rollercoaster corner. And I’m not intending to stir anything up and I wasn’t sure where to put this.. just that I needed to let you all know as it’s been really hurting me for some time. And FBC is where most of my buds hang out for their daily dose of silliness and group gropes. I’m simply wanting to reach out and let you all know that I love you and I cherish you all. For the fun times, for the deep, sad wounds you have shared, for the strength you have and provide.
I think I may have lost a friend due to a conversation with a stranger in a freaking Kos diary a while back. But… I can not tell you what it meant to see Military Tracy’s words, Second’s marks and the bonding phonecall that ensued with Tracy afterwards. No, I have not gone back to that diary to see or check for fall out. Nor do I want to know. Tracy and I both agreed it wasn’t healthy and we just won’t bother with it anymore. We have full plates in front of us. We all feel strongly about various things. We each have our issues. Some here are teaching us about environmental issues, how not to eat toxic food, others about anti-war movements, some about reform issues. None of them are lesser or greater. They are a part of a hole.
My ideas are changing, growing, evolving thanks to these boards and the people and their experiences. But, I too, have experiences and thoughts. One post doesn’t do away with all of that. Some text that doesn’t carry the correct emoticon of all fucking things, shouldn’t devalue another human being.
We are all marching for peace and understanding here. Let’s try to walk that talk as we type and read. I do my best to do so and that’s all I can do. Sometimes I just read because I don’t know what to say and I’m simply here to learn. Other times… I hope maybe just maybe I can teach a little bit of the small things I have found along this journey.
We may not all share the EXACT ideas or ways… but … people are fucking dying out there. Here and There. From stravation, genocide, mines in soccer fields, illegal occupations, abandonment, lack of preparedness, denial of healthcare and education and simply because they are seen as “evil” or an “enemy combatant”.
One day we will celebrate. Sure not everything will be solved. Sure not everything will be perfect. There will always be work to be done. But I sure as hell want to be able to look around and see all your faces, your names, and know that we may not have done it all the same way but at least we did it together and in the spirit of peace.
That’s all I’ve got to say… oh except that I’m so glad hockey is on this week, because I sure do enjoy it.