Dissolutions
Sort of like resolutions but their opposite. I’d resolved to post something called “Let’s talk about Alex” but I have dissolved instead. Not into tears: I am callous, heartless and unfeeling and these qualities actually do turn out to have their uses. But then – I have the advantage of knowing how this particular story goes. It’s trite and stale with nothing in it that hasn’t been said before or won’t be said again. Clichéd. Practically guaranteed to bore you witless. Suffering insomnia? Here’s a remedy. There. Truth in advertising.
In the end, what does a cat have to say to a king? Not much. “Miaow” mostly, and what a tedious lot of it there is.
Stealing (and adapting slightly) from PBJ Diddy
“Dear (BTers, Frogs, little green ribbity beasties):
I have loved you for a long time now so I feel that I must tell you what is honestly in my (heart/head/soul/closet). I (hate/loathe/detest/belch with disgust because of) each and every person I encounter on this blog lately. It’s not (you/me), it’s (me/you). I’ve been here (4 years/2 years/6 months/9 days) and I’ve been troll rated (unfairly/capriciously/violently)at least (1,000/10,000/25,000) times in the last two days. If you all hate me so much I’m (leaving/committing suicide/eating a bagel/dying my eyebrows pink) and don’t try to stop me.
I have better things in my life, such as __ BTW, all of this angst and sturm und drang is the fault of (name of popular bloggist who called the diarist on his/her bullshit recently). Don’t try looking for me I won’t be back for (ever/1 year/1 month/1 week/1 minute).
xoxo
______
Your name here”
PBJ Diddy, this is by far the funniest form letter I’ve ever seen. Especially “It’s not (you/me), it’s (me/you).” Sheer bloody genius. Alas, I am not going to fill it in, though I do think that pink eyebrows would be a startling and novel improvement. Certainly they could not make me any uglier than I already am.
Goodbye.
A belated goodbye, really, to something that I think I witnessed dissolve some months ago. It wasn’t trust, for which mercy I am profoundly grateful (see above, and add `untrusting’ right next to callous and heartless). It wasn’t solidarity exactly, and it wasn’t the hope of solidarity either, since hope is a deceiver. Perhaps it was the delusion that a cat might talk to a king. There are many things worth regretting, but delusions are not among them.
If I had to pinpoint that moment of disillusion?
“You are clearly a Middle Eastern or South Asian person. No. I take it back. You are an Egyptian. Sorry, but Nasserism is dead. Arab nationalism is dead. All that is left as opposition to the oligarchs like Mubarak are groups like the MB. I think you are probably more than a little sympathetic to these groups if not a member.
My comments were intended for people who have some sympathy for the West. You, clearly, do not and you recite all the tired cant of the Islamist.”
— 17 December 2005.
That I think, may have been the moment when the web spun wide. After that, it was perhaps inevitable that eventually the mirror would crack.
“Go elsewhere…or just stay away we are mostly American’s here and you are offensive to those of us that believe in what we stand for as a people.”
— 26 April 2006.
I haven’t attributed these quotes, since I am trying to what – explain? illustrate? Something anyway, other than to accuse. It’s certainly true that I am cruel, but I am trying not to be so here. Other statements could have replaced the second of the pair, and as for the first – well I think it marked a particular moment, but in retrospect the odds of escaping that moment were never good. It is far from impossible, moreover, that the web was already flying free long before and that that moment merely marked the point at which I noticed it.
There was of course a context: both posters felt their deeply-held views were being challenged and were responding defensively. It is true also that both were challenged for making these remarks: I do not claim there is consensus on this subject or anything remotely close to it.
But what I propose to bore you rigid about here is structural, rather than individual: Who gets heard? Who doesn’t? About which groups is it permitted to generalise? About which groups is it not? Who is allowed to generalise and who isn’t? Who is entitled to claim belonging? Who isn’t? Who can afford carelessness? Who cannot? Who is assumed to be well-intentioned? Who is not? Who is that offensive `you’ (for though it may have been intended to be singular, it is in fact a plural)? And who is that mysterious `we?’ All of which is really just a way of asking `Who has power and whom do they choose to regard as human?’ A while ago myriad wrote eloquently about this in a way that – I think – makes plain that such questions have broad political significance.
What first drew me here was the possibility, albeit remote, of internationalism.
Unfortunately some things, once invoked, prove difficult to dispel, even when everyone involved might wish otherwise.
“Go elsewhere…or just stay away we are mostly American’s here and you are offensive to those of us that believe in what we stand for as a people.”
— 26 April 2006.
Adieu, auf wiedersehen, farewell.
¿que pasa?
The short answer is `too much re-reading old diaries and articles’ I think. When I began writing this, a few days ago now, it was not a goodbye (though to be fair, it is also true that I’ve come close to goodbye several times and have certainly found it increasingly difficult to write here – none of which is news). But as I moved from rereading to trying to get pen on paper, it seemed increasingly evident that, given where I stand, staying was no longer possible. As for why I then continued to write and post this, rather than just not saying anything here again – that’s something I have tried to explain further (though not necessarily any more coherently) in response to myriad. For what it’s worth, and I appreciate that it may be worth very little, I tend to think that you do your damndest to do a difficult job with integrity.
Some of us are doing the best we can to suffocate the last bit of air out of the Alex that we were brainwashed into becoming.
Take care Dove
What if there was no back door?
Farewell, dove.
dove, Once again I am without any clue as to the incidents that gave rise to this diary. All I can say is that 2 people do not make a concensus. Nor do the the views of 2 people negate the possibility of internationalism. It would seem that most people here aspire to remain open to all things. You might reconsider, but if you must go, farewell.
dove, Once again I am without any clue as to the incidents that gave rise to this diary. All I can say is that 2 people do not make a concensus. Nor do the the views of 2 people negate the possibility of internationalism. It would seem that most people here aspire to remain open to all things. You might reconsider, but if you must go, farewell.
So let me see if I get this. A comment by Pat Lang, with whom almost everyone who posts here disagrees most of the time, and a heated response by someone to one of DuctapeFatwa’s legendary incendiary broadbrush tactical attacks is all you got?
Nothing dissolved but your thin-skinned perception of what community really means.
buh-bye.
Is your comment even remotely helpful?
People don’t have to agree with your perception of the world, nor is is necessary to subject them to derision and sarcasm if they express that they don’t.
For Dove, she’s stopped feeling welcome here, or I think more accurately, that the site has any hope of transcending it’s largely American base & hence view of the world. I’m really saddened we’re going to lose Dove, and I’m disgusted that people like you always show up on threads like this to heckle people who whether you agree or not are obviously hurting at some level. The least you could do is respect their feelings and keep out of it.
I’m disgusted by people who choose to slander the whole community by selecting two comments and drawing conclusions that don’t wash – and who then run away. Whatever the problem is, there’s no need to take it out on the rest of us. Heckle is as heckle does, myriad.
If all of us here haven’t reached the magical level of enlightenment necessary to please Dove, I’m truly sorry. And speaking of helpful, I don’t believe Dove’s broadbrush accusation is helpful in the slightest. It is a fine example of elitism, itself.
As for “obviously hurting at some level”, I didn’t read that into this diary at all [“I am callous, heartless and unfeeling…”]. I guess I’m just another dumb insensitive merkin not to pick up on the hurting that you claim to read. If I had sensed anything other than “derision and sarcasm” from the diary I would have posted something that you might think was more helpful to Dove.
Disagreeing with “my perception of the world” is really not an issue here. In a political context, I have almost always agreed with Dove and have felt no need to differ. I am as internationalist as it gets anywhere on the planet, and harbor no misbegotten illusions of nationalistic elitism. However, I do object to broad-brush attacks wherever and whenever I can. This is not a political world-view, but a logical worldview. If you differ with a logical world-view which says that broadbrush generalizations are hurtful, not helpful, then I can have that discussion with you. If you differ with a psychological worldview that even though different people are at different levels of understanding about different issues they are still worth talking to, then I can have that discussion with you. If someone states a broadbrush generalization and walks away, there is no discussion possible.
There is nothing remotely “slanderous” in Dove’s diary, there’s an expression that something she had hoped was possible didn’t result here for her
To whit:
“What first drew me here was the possibility, albeit remote, of internationalism.
Unfortunately some things, once invoked, prove difficult to dispel, even when everyone involved might wish otherwise.”
It says far more about you that you feel it necessary to attack her for speaking her mind (could you be more self-fulfilling of her perception?) – that her comments make you so defensive, that apparently you can’t even pick the obvious sense of loss in her post.
And if you really think no dicussion is possible with Dove for the reasons you have stated, it doubly begs the question why you felt the need to kick her in the back as she walked out the door.
Well, myriad, your quotes from the diary do not include any hint of the ‘for her’ that you seem to have read into them. A careful reading of the diary shows no such claim. The diary was an indictment of BT, and I don’t apologize for defending this community from what I perceive to be untrue and unjustified statements.
How many times must we collectively promote diaries about Iraqi deaths in the American occupation or diaries calling the current immigration debate racist before the community can be granted the status of an ‘internationalist’ stamp of approval? How many times must members object to the bullying foreign policy tactics of Bu$hCo before we can earn the ‘internationalist’ designation? How many times must we lament the demonization of the U.N. by John Bolton and the Republican regime? etc., etc., etc.,………..
I am not the one who decided that no discussion was possible, Dove did that, and slandered us on the way out with a broad brush attack based on shoddy evidence. Dove does, however, provide all the evidence needed that no discussion is possible in her reply to your comment in this very thread. She believes that by falsely accusing us and walking away, she is being highly effective in driving home her point.
I also believe it ridiculous for Dove to say in that same that reply that
I am not responsible for anyone else’s comments here, and neither are you, myriad. This is the fatal flaw in Dove’s argument, revealed for everyone to see. She attributes a few members’ comments to the whole community, then chastises us all for it and slams the door in our face. This is no argument at all. It is one of the faultiest and most childish tactics I’ve ever seen on BT.
so just in case you check:
It’s good to see you about and I would very much like it if we could keep in touch. I’m actually ok – I write very slowly these days, so it’s not as though I hadn’t had a chance to think through what the range of reactions was likely to be (if any). But in general, I do agree wholeheartedly with the idea that, by-and-large, people who find themselves writing such posts are usually doing so out of pain and that mockery is usually an inappropriate response.
Your second thought is the closer to the mark of the two, I think. Let me try and do a bit better at articulating why I’m leaving, since that was, after all, the point of writing this.
It seems to me that, collectively, this space is becoming more patriotic and that (again, collectively) the ways in which the Iraq war, the military and also Islam are being discussed are changing in ways that are aligned with that increase in patriotism. In my post, I used the words `structure’ and `structural’ to try and convey this sense of something that is not merely `individual,’ but on further reflection I think that `collectively’ may be more accurate.
My desire to convey `something that is not individual’ was also why I did not attribute the quotes I cited and why I tried to make plain that – although it seems to me that they marked salient moments – other statements could, and possibly should, have stood in their place. Certainly, they were not isolated and certainly they occurred within a context.
Here is a stab at what I do and don’t mean by collective.
I do not mean that individuals are not responsible for their speech and silences.
I do not mean that there is a general consensus among those who post here about patriotism and its desirability (or about any of the other subjects mentioned above for that matter) – it is abundantly clear that there is no such consensus and that these are contested subjects.
I do mean that we are collectively responsible for the totality of what is said here. Not Booman. Not the site administrators. But all of us.
Now, the obvious rejoinder is something along the lines of: “Well dove, you’ve just said you don’t think there’s a consensus. Why don’t you stay and do your bit by contesting these subjects then?”
And I would argue that contesting patriotism is what I have been doing – fairly calculatedly and deliberately – as best I can. (And yes, my post and this response are certainly calculated, in as much I tried to mean what I said and say what I meant and think through what the reaction to that was likely to be, revising as I thought appropriate).
So why leave? Why stop? Why fall silent here?
Albert O. Hirschman wrote a book some years back called Exit, Voice and Loyalty which I had occasion to read in circumstances that made it rather relevant. The book is much more interesting than the Wikipedia entry. Among other things (and here I’m writing from memory, so those who have a copy to hand or a better remembrance should feel free to jump in), Hirschman makes the argument that an interesting thing happens to those who dissent from an organisation or community, but never `exit.’ If I remember rightly, he claims that over time, their dissent becomes `acceptable’ – that is to say, it becomes a predictable thing that everybody expects, which has no potential to effect change. Indeed, such `acceptable dissent’ can sometimes even be coopted and made useful by the organisation being dissented against: for well-known examples of this, one might think of Colin Powell in the United States and possibly Claire Short in the United Kingdom.
I’m inclined to think that Hirschman is right. After doing quite a bit of rereading and thinking, I’m also inclined to think that the point has come (indeed, it probably came and went a while ago) where to remain would be to fall into that trap of acceptable dissent. Therefore I will not.
This being the last time I will write in this space, I thought I might as well try to clarify. Sorry it ended up kind of long.
It was a beautiful goodbye, anyway.
Can’t attribute this line to its author (out of ignorance). I only know it by attribution to the band of the same name. But, it goes something like this — trying to hang on to things in life is like counting crows.
— 26 April 2006.
Ye gads. I can’t even begin to fathom a context in which such a comment would be even remotely appropriate. That’s the kind of crap that deserves a trip to the woodshed.
Anyhoo…be well.
It’s a shame to see anybody leave over a few asshole comments. That “Go elsewhere…or just stay away we are mostly American’s here and you are offensive to those of us that believe in what we stand for as a people.” comment–that doesn’t seem typical of this particular little board at all. I’ve never seen that kind of sentiment here. I hope the writer got squashed.
Now back to my letter to the editor…two letters in my local newspaper proclaim today that Muslims are heathen pagans who “don’t pray to the same god” as Christians. This is a result of local controversy (Carroll County, Maryland) when some knothead “Christians” refused to let some Muslims participate in a public “Prayer Day” ceremony. Idiots. Can’t you just imagine what they’d say if some wild-eyed guy named Yeshua bar-Joseph showed up?
Dear Dove. Well, it’s all illusion, isn’t it? There’s not really any “here” here, there’s just each of us with our own ideas of what “this” is. So there’s nothing actually to dissolve except the knots in our own stomachs or the hardness in our own hearts.
I respect you, and I respect your choice.
See you elsewhere, I hope, even if that doesn’t really exist, either!
leave. It is such a large world and it is a full time job challenging ones beliefs and barriers in order to get to a life well lived and loved. Sometimes I’m worn out from it all right now with Iraq. If you must go though because it is best for you then CIAO friend. Thank you for sharing you and that part was real.
Dove, I’m stunned, sad and angry all at the same time. I want to support you in making whatever decision you feel is best, but in the spirit of “its all about me” I would love you to reconsider. I need people like you to challenge all the ways I continue to be steeped in US exceptionalism. I know I am, its just that I don’t always see it. On many occasions you have pushed me and I have grown. How am I ever going to continue to do that if people like you don’t hang in there with us and keep pointing it out?
And I might not gain lots of friends with this one, but I’ve been feeling it for a while now, so I’m just going to say it. I miss Ductape Fatwa’s regularly posting here. I’m sure the same thing you are reacting to is why he doesn’t spend much time here. I know that he made me furious, made me laugh and made me cry. But I learned from him and that’s why I love this blog.
My experience is that if you’re not experiencing conflict, then you’re probably not learning and growing. It doesn’t need to be personal – but we need to let it happen and let the conversation, no matter how difficult, work its magic.
experiencing some conflict. Sometimes it is only through conflict that we can grow through some of our delusions. Much like a few of the fights that I have had with my husband concerning his employment….each one has brought us just that much closer to a full truth. What are needs and what are wants have become exposed to the light of day….then things become simple.
Thanks Tracy.
I guess I have more to say about this. I think its such an important issue.
I remember years ago when a young African American woman came into my office at work to let me know she was quiting her job with us. One of her reasons was that she was tired of being the one who always had to answer “those questions” about race and push the envelope to educate us about our blind spots. I could totally understand how exhausting that would be after a while. I’ve since heard the same thing from some of my gay friends about how it feels to be in a mostly heterosexual community.
If we can’t listen to voices different from our own with some modicum of respect for the uphill battle they face, then we’ll shut them down and never hear them. We are all loosers then. This is more than about Dove for me, but its an example of situations that trigger great concern for me.
This is something that I fear could easily be misinterpreted, but I guess I’m going to take the chance anyway. I have never pushed you. Neither has DTF, I suspect, though I certainly cannot speak for him. If you think you have been pushed, then probably you have been, but if you want to see who did the pushing then all you need do is look in a mirror.
Go well and stay well
“Ten people who speak make more noise than
ten thousand who are silent.” — Napoleon
A quote I found on a blog called smoke signal.
Somehow I usually miss the diaries with heavy infighting here @BooMan’s Place. Both of your references are to diaries I missed and didn’t participate, however I did spend time reading some of the comments.
Diary by MT about US servicemen returning from Iraq, a battle between SC and DTF.
You are clearly a Middle Eastern …
Patrick Lang run in with Londonbear, a diary with 223 comments.
It does show a very emotional fight between people who aren’t communicating, but trying to convey feelings and thoughts by shouting at each other. When troll rating is involved, I always sign off and will not participate in such a waste of time.
The need to stand up and fight for principles is part of the blog community. I’ve had my issues with PP, Lt C and Pat Lang.
PP has since made her home in Amsterdam, and we’re on friendly terms. An open and frank discussion without personal attacks is what BooMan promotes and what makes a community progress in development of thought on difficult issues splitting the American people today.
Dove, your voice is needed and appreciated here @BooMan! Like you mentioned, the international flavor should be strenghtened.
"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."▼ ▼ ▼ MY DIARY
the world-views of others, it is completely ridiculous to expect them to be immediately grateful. If the challenge is delivered as an insulting or offensive generalization, it is absurd to expect respectful appreciation instead of defensive anger. If your intent is to provoke change, can it be surprising when the target gets provoked?
If you are tired or bored with pricking the bubble of American exceptionalism, so be it. But don’t blame the reactions of others for your departure. Really, what did you expect?
A: You are the fattest slob in the whole world.
B: I beg your pardon! How dare you say that to me!
A: You are fat, you know. I’m only saying this because I care about your health.
B: Hey, I may be over-weight but I’m not the fattest person in the world! And where do you get off calling me a slob? When was the last time you cleaned your bath tub, you dirty bitch?
A: My bath tub is not the issue here. I’m trying to help you and all I get are insults.
B: You insulted me first!
A: You just don’t respect and appreciate me. I’m not going to be your friend anymore.
A to C: Can you believe she called me a dirty bitch? All I did was try to help her realize that she’s fat.
That’s awesome! And a completely accurate description of the way these things degenerate into defensiveness, derision, sarcasm and name-calling.
That’s all I’m going to say because I hate when someone comes in and deliberately pops a zit and then runs away. It’s calculated and I won’t engage.
Ditto.
I completely agree sjct on how things degenerate into personal insults. But in my experience that has not been the tenor of Dove’s writings here. I certainly have not read everything Dove has writen, but have seen an attempt to challenge and provoke our US exceptionalist thinking not clouded by personal attacks. That does provoke and sometimes lead to conflict. And yes, I think its best if Dove stays to push that through. But we also need to think about how our reactions shut that kind of challenge down and do what we need to do so that we can be open to hearing. We’re supposed to be those who don’t think in simplistic right/wrong categories. There’s some room for truth from all sides in a conversation like this.
…that has not been the tenor of Dove’s writings here.
I wasn’t implying that at all. In the snarky example above, Dove would be more like A and the person she provokes, the person reduced to name-calling, is B.
I also wish Dove would stay and jab at our bubble some more. But, the fact remains that it is human nature to react defensively when criticized and expecting otherwise — even from the evolved and enlightened participants here — is a false expectation.
Also, since Dove used a reply to DTF as an example of the type of reaction she has found tiresome and unreasonable let’s return again to what provoked it: As I recall DTF stated in various ways that ALL US soldiers are baby-killers and NONE of them deserve respect or the kindness of strangers in airports.
Well, gee-whiz, when someone makes purposefully offensive generalizations, one can expect that former members of the military and the wives of current soldiers might get friggin’ pissed off over being pissed on. It’s the equivalent of telling someone they are the fattest person in the world and expecting them to say, “Thank you for being concerned about my health.”
I want DTF to feel free to make provocative comments and I want SallyCat and MT to feel free to tell him to fall of the face of the earth. And I don’t want any of them to walk away…
I am an American who spent half a life time wrapped snugly in the Amnerican Flag, sucking fiercely on my bottle full of American Expectionalism, (which was all I’d ever been fed.) Then came Vietnam, that sweet formula curdled fast. I vomited up that last dregs of it the day I buried my little brother.
It hurt. Oh how it hurt, to give up that bottle of sweetness. How it still stings, when I am forced to see yet another hidden strand of that old, well imbedded mindset still present within me. And when I hurt, I often lash out, eager to protect something I am not ready to release.
I need the others. I need thier words, in whatever form they arrive, if I am to continue expanding my own awareness. They need mine, too, if they are going to expland theirs as well. We all need each other, just as we are at any given moment, if we are EVER going to build any bridges between us at all.
If course it’s hard when any strong, familair voice removes itself, from any side of any issue. I understand the need for this, we’re mere humans who get too tired, hurt, disallisioned, angry, whatever, to remain engaged. This is immensely hard, pioneering work for all concerned. It is truly unchrarted territory.
I thank all who are no longer here, or who are leaving now, for the time they were here, and for the courage it took to be here as an visible “other”, (whether born her or elsewhere.) I thank all the born Americans here, for loving this country enough to defend her against what is often perceived an attack, whether it truly is or not.
I am especially glad for all who HAVE been able to hear each other in spite of any “static” and who are changing themselves, inside, bit by bit, moving toward the awareness that when all is said and done, we are all indeed so much more alike, than we are different.
We have only just begun to build these bridges. There will be more and more “others” joining us, and there will be more and more of “us” who are ready to enter this uncharted terrigory, no matter how rought the ground.
Aw sheeit! A few weeks away and I try to return home only to find it the same, yet undergoing a complete demolition.
Being completely unaware of events and everyone else’s feelings, I can only say farewell Dove – it was a pleasure. May the birds fill your life with music.
And along with Emily Dickinson, I disagree with you about hope.
Hope is the thing with feathers
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune–without the words,
And never stops at all,
And sweetest in the gale is heard;
And sore must be the storm
That could abash the little bird
That kept so many warm.
I’ve heard it in the chillest land,
And on the strangest sea;
Yet, never, in extremity,
It asked a crumb of me.