Ok, Arthur Gilroy here’s the answer you want me to explain to you. Just remember you asked.
orginally you quoted the following from my comment. (note: the link you provided did not work on the Gilligan Island thing. So I’m not responding to the comments left with reading what you might have written there.)
The pie war on Dkos was a pointless exercise in restricting the exposure of an advertisement that some people found offensive. I was offended by those who wished to “censor” that ad. In a Democracy you have to take the good with the bad sometimes.
It seems that this statement has inflamed many of the people who comment on Booman Tribune. That was not my intent. My intent was to offer my viewpoint on what I thought and still think of the pie fight on Dkos last year.
Now apparently I have to explain it to those who left comments that I didn’t understand the “real issue involved” in the pie fight.
I understood perfectly what the real issue was but like Arthur I find it inconceivable that anyone who believes in the word “freedom” cannot exercise a little common sense and tolerance so that “freedom” is more than just a word but a real world exercise.
So lets look at the “Advertisement” that sparked the original pie fight. For anybody with an ounce of common sense it was obvious this ad was “sexist” and “stupid”. It attempted to appeal to the base nature of the male by objectifying the a female who was well endowed in the upper chest region. Many females objected to this advertisement on Dkos being that it was a progressive political site.
I totally ignored the ad because any ad that attempts to appeal to me on this level or assumes through the use of the inference that I’m just “sex maniac” who has no control over my sexual impulses is not only downright wrong but shows a total lack of respect for me as a mature male. So to me this type of advertisement has little or no appeal.
So I exercised my “freedom to chose” by never clicking on the link for whatever it was they were attempting to sell me.
So what am I now defending? If you guessed right you know it was the decision of the site owners to take the money of the advertiser and laugh his ass off when the ad generated no revenue for that advertiser because they didn’t do any homework on the people who visited Dkos and their views on using “sex” as a selling point.
Stupid is as Stupid does. So I can tolerate this kind of stupidity because freedom allows anyone to be as stupid as they want to be. So this whole pie fight in my viewpoint was pointless because the advertiser was an idiot. Marko’s showed everyone that, Yes there were even stupid advertisers that would throw money at him which he could put to better uses in getting politicians elected who represent the people and not just coporations who want no accountablility for themselves and their actions.
The other thing I objected to was the hypersensitivity mode this ad caused everyone to go into. If women don’t want men to look at them as “sex objects” then they have the choice of wearing the required dress for women of the Taliban overlords when they had control of Afghanistan.
Women in America get upset when their physical attributes go un-noticed by males they want to attract. They also get upset when a male can’t take his eyes off the cleavage long enough to look them in the eye. So for males it is a no win situation. All I can say here is that if you women who are reading this have pegged me or the rest of the male population with a “male chauvinist” label you are wrong to do so.
Yes there are men who rape and beat women I can only say they better not even attempt it my presence because I will use any means up to and including killing them to stop it from happening. I’ve seen the results of women who were abused not only by men but by other women, in many cases their mothers or sexual partners. The same goes for men I know who have been sexually and physically abused.
Last month a very good woman friend of mine passed away. Her mother abuse her so badly in her childhood that she developed multiple personalities which allowed her to survive the experience. She had massive scars on her back from the beatings her mother gave her with belts, canes and lamp cords etc… No human being deserves this type of treatment.
Saying that a stupid advertisement causes this type of behavior is simplistic and ignorant of the reality that human beings who commit these atrocities on other people are preprogrammed by the attitudes, values and experiences of the generation which gave them life.
Attitudes, values and behaviors learned in childhood are not easy to overcome. Changing society to stop hurting each other is not something any government, special interest group or institution can force society as whole to do. It has to be done at the individual level on day to day basis.
Sorry everyone but this is a hot button issue with me on a very personal level because I’ve dealt with the fallout of way too many people who have suffered the petty tyrant who uses and abuses any human being they are in contact with.
Is their a connection between sex used in advertizing and rape and abuse? If your taught hate then yes. If your taught to love then there isn’t. So if what you love is sick, perverted and twisted by childhood, life experiences and you define your life by what you hate then the problem is more than just a picture which may act as a trigger.
So as you can see I rejected the advertisement on a personal level but I will defend to the death the right of Dkos to take that advertisers money because I believe in the words “freedom” and “tolerance”. In this case everyone on Dkos had the “right not to ever chose” to click on that advertisers advertisement.
What good is freedom without being given choice? The minute anyone wants to limit my choice in life is the minute I know that freedom has ceased to exist. This was the real issue that got glossed over in the pie fight.
So I’ll stand by my original statement. If anyone doesn’t understand why at this point then I suggest you spend a minute making a list of how you would “impose by force” the choices you would limit Americans to make. If you already have along list then maybe you should rethink this concept called “Freedom”.
There is one other thing I will point out about the pie fight on Dkos.
Don’t waste my valuable time with being a bunch of drama queens and getting off the main focus of any site and it’s real objective to make America free from the tyranny that is being imposed on it’s population by the politicians, corporations and the criminals who created this mess we all call America.
[Update]To all those who have commented. Each and everyone who commented is “Right”. So now you can feel much better about how you convinced me that your “Right and I’m Wrong”. Yep! Everyone here has just convinced me to “Agree with Everything and Everybody”. Keep it up and within no time at all the world will finally have Peace since there will be nothing left to argue about.
of course it was pointless. So much of “progessive ” discourse is both pointless and witless. And we wonder why the great unwashed American midection wont vote like us?
The facts which most progressives tend to ignore are:
Women are making major gains in education level, job promotion and income relative to men. These gains cut across racial lines (African American women among the fastest largest gainers) and tend to undercut cherished progressive theories about racism and sexism. So you never hear about these positive societal developments in the blogosphere, mainly because it doesnt fit the progressive “script.” Which as someone said in AGs thread,progressives bore the shit out of most Americans….
Pointles. Witless.
Is this how truly you view the response of those of us who chose to leave Dkos due to what we experienced there during this incident?
No. I respect anyone’s right to exit the room for any reason.
But the entire debate in the macro sense, over a sexy woman in an ad or a sexy man in an ad, is truly too trivial FOR ME to spend much time on. Maybe I should have put it that way.
How do you feel about the real economic gains made by women vs men in recent years?
Doesnt that help overcome at least some of the bitterness about your own treatment?
Nothing is or ever will be perfect or easy. When you signed onto the fight for female equality you were signing up to battle against long odds for a lifetime.
Still, I believe men are far more endangered long term than women. You can see the signs all around, including the fact that men attend college less, go to prison more and are rapidly losing purchasing power equality to women as we speak.
This doesnt even begin to address the issue of cloning, in which male sexuality is rendered irrelevant by science.
Like so many did, you are missing the entire issue, and choose to focus on “the ad” segment of the whole thing.
I left because of how I was treated,as a human being, for expressing a dissenting opinion.
I left there because there was a lengthy and viscious, “piling on” of crude, verbally abusive, demeaning, dehumanizing responses that were simply allowed to go on and on and on, with no one in charge doing one damned thing about it.
When they were heard from, it was to join the chorus singing “Your views are not wanted here, so take them elsewhere.”
I left there because whether I was a woman or a man, I’d choose not to associate myself with any group that would condone such disrespecfful, demeaning behavior toward ANY group of people. Where, while calling themelves “progressive” , they carry on with the same old patriarchal “Golden Rule”: “Conform to who we tell you you should be, or be ignored, dismissed, or driven off.”
That stance is not, in my definition, liberal or democratic or “ptogressive” in any way, shape or form.
It is just another version of the same patriarchal “Golden Rule” I have known and fought against for over six decades now. It is the last kind of place I ever wish to frequent, much lESS contribute to.
Now. I’ve stated my strong and valid reasons for leaving that place. As I hope you can disern, they have much more substance to them than can be described by the word “bitterness”, which you seem to think might possibly be blinding me to the progress women have made. Nor are they based on some emotional knee jerk reaction I had to a sexist “ad”.
I respectfully suggest to you it might serve you well to examine some of your basic assumptions concerning women in general. All any of us “know” from early on, is what we were taught, and cultuual programming is a powerful often subconscious influece. Much can be learned from examining some of this as we go along to see it it is truly serving us or those we care to interact with in our lives.
What she said.
Uuh Huh :o)
Yes, well it was difficult to discern your real reason for leaving until you stated it. Your previous comments implied that you were mainly offended by the reduction of women to “body parts” which I always find to be a disingenuous argument.
Lets face it, “body parts” are part of the mix, have been, are and always will be, whether any of us like it or not.
And I am not really offended when someone says, lets reduce men to their body parts too and see how they like it.
Now your request that I go back and reexamine my basic assumptions towards women…. my advice to you would be to stay away from reducing your posts to cliched admonishments like the one you used in final paragraph above.
Your posts read much more lively and interesting when they speak about your own valid experiences, as in your reaction to pie wars and DKOS.
The Left as you say is almost always its own worst enemy. The knots of hypocrisy which we lefties tend to find ourselves so often enmeshed are only more greatly amplified on blogs, which also amplify hierachy and conformity above all else.
Cliches play well on the internets.
>>Yes, well it was difficult to discern your real reason for leaving until you stated it. Your previous comments implied that you were mainly offended by the reduction of women to “body parts” which I always find to be a disingenuous argument.<<
First of all, this all went down a whole year ago, Donkey, and I have written all about my full reasons out dozens of times then, and since then.
Then you come along and apparently needed me to do it all again, in order for you to decide whether my reasons were valid or not? That’s how it seems to me anyway. I did take the time to repeat it all over for you, you’ll note, on the chance that there might be something useful to come from that investment of my time. Outcome seems doubtful at thuis point.
You say you are not offended when men are reduced to their body parts. Do you believe then, that because this doesn’t offend you, it shouldn’t offend anyone else? Or that women really ought not be offended when they are reduced to body parts?
Thank you for your overall critique of my posting style, even thought I don’t remember aksing you for one. Nonetheless it has been noted. Of course, the value of “cliches ” depends on ones definition of them. Many truths, I find, can be stated very simply in few words that can seem like “cliches” to those who don’t like them.
thats one of the problems with this art form. We just natuarally assume that everyone else is completely current and up to date on each others penetrtaing insights.
Good response, altho I would say that you are forced to restate your positions again mainly because someone else dredged up the entire episode all over again.
Sorry about all that “cliche” nonsense I brought up which in itself is “cliched.” Shame on me.
And yes, the power of suggestion is strong. I will be reexamining my attiude towards women again, just as you suggested, whether I want to or not.
It is the things we do not want to do that we generally most need to do. Dont you agree?
Donkey and Mirror seem to think that the whole “civil rights” thing is over.
Well, guys, bigotry is alive, well and living in the subconscious:
Universities have done numerous studies proving it, but you won’t see them in the MSM.
The classic is the art exhibit.
A group of paintings, all signed “S. Smith” are hung in a gallery. At the entrance is a photo of Sam Smith and a short bio. Randomly chosen test subjects, who believe that they are judging art, are brought in and asked to record their evaluation of each picture on a 1-10 scale.
When they leave, Sam’s picture comes down, and the artist becomes Susan Smith with the same bio; the process is repeated using a fresh group of art evaluators.
The artist is variously represented as Sam Smith, the African American artist, as Sergio Sanchez Smith, as Selina Sanchez Smith, etc., and each incarnation is evaluated by a new group of test subjects. You get the idea.
When the scorecards are totaled up, the work ascribed to a white male was judged as far superior to the same work attributed to women or men of colour. Ironically, we’re worth 3/5 of a white male.
The scoring differences are the same whether laypeople or art experts are judging. The study has been duplicated many times using art, poetry, music, literature, scientific papers, architectural drawings, battle plans, business models, speeches, lesson plans, you name it. The only variation comes when the task is a traditionally masculine one, like physics papers or troop deployment proposals; then white men are valued at twice the worth of everybody else.
Oh, and the test subjects, who were given questionnaires at study’s end almost all asserted that they weren’t sexist or racist.
Your point, while a good one, doesnt accurately sum up what I am saying. Or what I think about women, civil rights, the tendency of a randomly selected group of people to be biased towards white men.
Did the study include people of color and women? were they also biased in favor of the white male artist?
The pie wars and the braindeadening argument over sexist advertising, bannings at DKOS…
I stand by my statement and MM’s too I guess.
Pointless and witless.
I wasn’t attemping to “sum up” what you’re saying.
I’m saying what I’M saying.
And yes, all of these many, many studies included women and people of colour. Racism and sexism are so insidiously ingrained that the work ascribed to white males is over valued on average by 60 to 100%.
If you are unable to see the wit or point of issues important to woman, perhaps you should not waste your time on them. No one requires you to have the same concerns we do. It is not particularly helpful of you to interject “I just don’t get it,” over and over. We know you don’t get it. That’s OK, but not getting it doesn’t make you an arbiter on how women should feel.
And if you don’t think this post is very good, pretend a man wrote it; it will get better.
I get just about everything. Unfortunately for me.
The feelings of women about issues that are important to them are one thing. Whatever that means.
The discussion over the pie wars are not exactly the same. That discussion remains pointless and witless, even as examples of the issues that are important to women. Whatever that means.
And neither of us has here added anything constructive either to A: issues that are important to women (whatever that means) or B: the pie wars.
thanks for commenting on my diary by the way. I am sure you will not make that mistake again! 🙂
This type of trivial crap is the stuff I try to avoid like I did on Dkos when the pie fight was in full swing last year.
This time I happened to make a comment on the stupid pie fight and got sucked into even more trivial stupidity that passes for “progressive” in the blog-o-sphere hence this response diary which only compounded the pointlessness of the whole thing.
Nothing like a divided front to keep the opposition laughing all the way to the bank.
>>I understood perfectly what the real issue was.<<
No. You most certainly do NOT understand what the real issue was for me, and for many other women and men who were affected by this. Not at all.
You understand and highly value your own intepretation of it. You dismiss mine and that of others, as “hypsensitivity”. I see no indication at all that you have any interest in truly understanding any other viewpoint other that your own, which you feel is superior.
So be it. It’s certainly nothing new to me. I’ve been talked down to and “dismissed” by men such as you for 65 years now and I have no intention of spending any more of my life energy trying to be heard by those who have no intention or desire to hear.
So other than this response, which is to inform you that I now choose to dismiss your views as arrogantly condescending and disrespectful of women.
I will return my focus to mutually satisfying exhanges with men and women here who do regard womens opinions and reactions as equally valid with their own, whether they agree on content or not. Most of the regular guy posters here are like this.
From what I am reading, you do not appear to be one of them.
Don’t waste my valuable time with being a bunch of drama queens and getting off the main focus of any site and it’s [sic] real objective…
Please don’t waste my valuable time with lengthily recapitulating a bunch of moronic responses — “Go wear a burka if you don’t like it!”, “You’re trying to restrict my freedom!”, and the ever-popular “Women abuse men, too, you know!” — that have already been rebutted approximately 10,000 times.
Actually, I should admit you didn’t completely waste my time. This —
— was probably the single funniest paragraph I’ve yet read on BMT (it’s the punch line that does it). Sorry, Ductape! Sorry, Bood!
In a sense, your diary stands as evidence that the dispute was, to a certain extent, pointless. If, after all that was written in those days and has been written since, you can in full confidence post things like the above paragraph, or like this —
— then one wonders what was ever the point of trying, as many did, to explain patiently what is wrongheaded about them a first time, a second time, a third time…
Yep. I left that mess over there when I realized I was struggling to get the same points across that I have already spent a lifetime trying to get across to men like this, and asked myself “WHY AM I STILL DOING THIS?”
By that point, it WAS clearly a pointless waste of my own now limited valuable time and energy. You cannot penetrate chosen ignorance. And I also finally realized that is not my sole responsibility, as a women, to continue to fight like hell to get through to every generation of men who firmly believe they already know everything they need to know, and that I know little to nothing of value at all.
Let men educate men for ahwile; maybe they’ll find it easier to grant each others views “validity” and equal status with thier own.
Scribe,
In order for someone to learn something, they have to be open to it. Anyone, woman or man, who tries to educate someone who’s mind is closed to the issue, is wasting their time.
You know that I’m beside you on this. Now let’s, you and me, not waste anymore time here.
Yes, I surely do know you you two and many other men here, are beside me on this,and thank you for showing up here to say it again. I also know trying to get through is a waste of time, so I didn’t try.
What has kept this particular involvement from being a waste of my time is this: I know that for one of the few times in my life, that “real men” have my back, along with other powerful women who are always there.
Have you ANY how good that feels to a woman of my generation? Just to experience this, and the freedom to challenge this crap openly and straight up, in a place where I where I KNOW I will NOT get buried under a pile on of viscious, dehumanizing abuse just for speaking my mind?
No, no waste of time this morning for me! These have been rare and purely enjoyable “harvest” moments of actually living the proof of changes I have always believed were possible somehow, someday. Living breathing proof, like you two!
“If women don’t want men to look at them as “sex objects” then they have the choice of wearing the required dress for women of the Taliban overlords when they had control of Afghanistan.”
So according to you, we should just cover up. The same solution men have imposed for thousands of years. Let’s try something new, shall we ? Why don’t you make an effort to treat women like HUMAN BEINGS.
And if you won’t, don’t be surprised when we blow you off, shut you out, and suggest that you grow up, because we don’t have to take this crap anymore.
I don’t want my personhood reduced to a piece of ass.
I’m sure you find that hysterical and overly dramatic, but somehow I developed the notion that I have worth transcending my vagina.
Seems that you did not read the rest.
I treat women and men as human beings.
In the 26 years I’ve lived with my partner for life we have never raised our voices in anger to each other during a disagreement. She would object to your pegging me as someone who doesn’t treat a woman as a human being.
I was attempting to point out the extremes that are the realities most women have to deal with from a male viewpoint. Something it appears you have never attempted to do. Maybe it came out wrong or I could have stated it better but don’t assume “all men are the same” and start bashing away.
You want to be treated like a human being then act like one and stop assuming no male can ever understand where you are coming from.
I most certainly did read the rest.
You do NOT treat women like human beings when you suggest that we “cover up” to avoid being victimized instead of demanding that men stop treating us like objects. And you’re damned right it came out wrong.
I do not think men are all the same. Disabuse yourself of that notion right now. I am not bashing men in general. I am bashing you, personally, individually, for the views you expressed. I do not think that there are no men who can understand a woman’s perspective; many of the fine men on this site have spoken eloquenty to the the point. You are not one of them.
As a woman you have every right to oppress yourself as much as you like. Keep it up your doing a better job than any mere male could ever do.
#1-I fixed that link.
Sorry.
Here it is again if you are interested.
AG’s “Real Gilligan’s island” Deconstruction
#2-You write:
I believe that you are wrong here on several levels.
First of all…absent any figures neither you NOR I know how many clicks that ad got. The fact that it was up for a long while and thus probably renewed means to me that it was INDEED generating numbers.
Fort what reasons?
Probably many, including the brouhaha on dKos that it engendered.
And I once again ask you (And let’s leave old man Hitler out of it this time.) would you have objected if the KKK…or even NBC…had run an ad for a show that promoted regressive views about the relative intelligence and fitness of a given race?
Say Jews or people of African descent?
FORGET about the image.
FORGET about whether the ad successfully generated income for the advertisers.
Would you have had any objections to the owners of dKos accepting money to run that ad?
I would have had objections, and so would most of the people on that blog.
But a show that denigrates women?
Oh.
THAT’S OK.
You write:
No.
“Freedom” does NOT allow that. It should not, anyway.
Not when that stupidity threatens the commonweal.
And sexism on that level does JUST that.
You write:
With major allies like Armando? A man who made BIG MONEY representing just such corporations, as has been shown recently?
The doubt is on. BIG time. About just who is laughing at whom.
You write…and we are veering off into the ludicrous, now:
Please.
Again…it was about a show that functioned as a trance-inducer for 12 year old boys and girls and their mental equals on BOTH sides of the age line.
NOT just “stupid” little boys and girls.
Pre-AWARE ones.
It…and the whole sexist cultural system it represented…trivialized and infantilized sexuality. This is perhaps THE biggest problem of our culture. Certainly in the top three of four. If you cannot see this…and the responsibility of a supposed left wing blog to fight that force everywhere and forever…then all I can do is say what Fats Waller said when someone asked him what “swing” was.
If you don’t know…I can’t tell you.
And AGAIN you miss the boat. (At least you are consistent.):
AND THAT “GENERATION THAT GAVE THEM LIFE” WERE THEMSELVES PREPROGRAMMED BY THE SAME SYSTEM.
A system that has gotten BETTER at programming as technology has progressed.
It wasn’t ABOUT “the ad”. It was about the PROGRAM.
And the programming it promoted.
You write:
And there it is.
My point.
Exactly.
You claim not to be affected by such programming.
I hope that is true.
So do I.
Not in the way it is MEANT to affect me, anyway.
I hope that this is true also.
But the 12 year olds?
The semi-conscious beer drinkers?
Male AND female?”
Program CITY!!!
Believe it.
And finally:
And how do you think that they DID this, these politicians, corporations and criminals?
Do you really think that it is a coincidence that people like Karl Rove and Joseph Goebbels hold positions of extreme power in fascist systems?
It is the SUBCONSCIOUSLY INDUCED POWER OF PROPAGANDA that controls working majorities in a trance-state governed system.
Clomp clomp clomp.
And it must be fought everywhere and anywhere it rears its head.
If you don’t get that…so be it.
Best of luck in the future.
You…and all the REST of the sleepers who think they’re above it all…are gonna NEED that luck.
As will we all if there are enough of you.
Later…
AG
I now know why we are worlds apart. Your a musician. I’m I sound engineer, producer etc…
We are both doing the same thing in the same tent. My job is to take the crap musician’s think is good shit and make it sound like good shit. The problem is that it is still shit that we are selling the suckers who bought the tickets to see the show.
I know it. You know it. You took my comment out of context and made a mountain out of a molehill. So let’s can the crap fest of the pie fight on Dkos and get back to the main focus of the show which is attempting to get those stuck in the mud, sitting on the fence yokels who voted for El Presidenti last time not to make the same mistake again by voting for anyname with an “R” behind it.
I did read the deconstruction of Gillians Island. I stopped watching TV because of the stupidity of it all which you put into words so well. Really loved the part about the Hampsters of Doom. Check out the link you’ll find a paper doll of the Hampsters of Doom half way down the page.
Wow, Mind, I think you may have just set a new blog record for Insulting the Most People in One Fell Swoop.
Nice to know I’m good at something on occasion even though it was unintended.
Made me smile.
How in the world have we reached a point where freedom and tolerance and choice are applied to corporate advertisements?
How in the world have we reached a point where freedom and tolerance and choice are applied to corporate advertisements?
And not to women.
That is a very good question for which I do not have the answer.
I believe everyone should be treated with equality and respect and I attempt to practice this in daily life but the reality is even when you make the attempt it either confuses or seperates people even futher from each other. So after years of making the attempt I’m no closer to finding an answer to a question like this than anyone else is.
I can’t believe we have to rehash this drivel, here — at the BooTribune a year after most of us deliberately left it behind.
I don’t care if you agree with us or not. And your snide opinions and jerk-ish sarcasism —
won’t be forgotten by me anytime soon.
I must be cranky. Sorry if I’ve over reacted.
I think your reaction was right on target. A bullseye, in fact.
He opened this diary. He gets what comes down.
I suspect he did not really follow the original issue, which was not the ad. But insists he knows what it was all about.
Now I am yawning.