This diary is written in response to an exchange between BostonJoe and SallyCat in the comment section of Joe’s Exceptional Amnesia, wherein SallyCat searches for the point of posting a long list of unsupportable actions taken, as they say, in our Name (if often covertly). Her question was, if I might summarize, what is the extent, and the point, of such guilt? I’m rephrasing that question like so: What is the point of knowing history?
It seems to me, first off, that there isn’t a single, necessary, point in knowing history. That is: as our capacities for dealing with knowledge differ, our need to know likewise differs. The key to understanding need to know, i think, relates to the fact that we become responsible for what we know.
As I’ve written elsewhere, Real History imparts a burden; while Fake History (think the Warren Report or Official 9/11 Report) shifts the burden onto a scapegoat. This shifting of blame works in two interconnected ways. Most obviously, responsibility for the act is put solely upon an expendable outsider (the patsy). By acceding to this bit of fake knowledge, the people become free of the burden of addressing what actually occured. To be burdened by knowledge of Real History is to face what I think of as Hamlet’s Dilemma.
We can see the same dilemma (from a different angle) played out in a less exalted context, as in, for example, Fox’s 24; wherein the President’s wife is convinced that for the sake of National Unity she should not reveal her husband’s responsibility for a day of terror attacks upon Los Angeles.
This situation, to my mind, relates back to the fundamental paradox of national identity. As Israeli ex-foreign minister Shlomo Ben Ami puts it: Every nation is born in sin. We can see this same principle at work in the fact that what is forbidden for individuals (murder) is allowed and even exalted for nations (war, and in fact, genocide).
There is, thus, a deep psychological exchange that has to go on, whereby we all agree to forget the past for the sake of the Greater Good. This is the heartstring the tyrant plays on. Axiomatically: Power is the shadow image of Truth and Reconcilliation. It is, in the Idealist or Dualist worldview, the copy of a genuine process.
So, if I might restate the question: What is the point of distinguishing between the copy and the Real Thing? If the copy is good enough for, say, Jimmy Carter, who are you and I to complain?
One possible value is as a sort of innoculation against fraud. This whole myth of American virtue and exceptionalism makes for a credible citizenry who only well after the fact realize that the latest just war is in fact another colossal injustice. Likewise, such wisdom might serve as an innoculation against false flag terror.
The counter argument – the argument in favor of not distinguishing between the copy and the Real Thing – holds that to introduce uncertainty into the national consciousness is to court anihilation from evil people who fail themselves to make such a distinction. Everyone knows that madmen who believe themselves ordained by God are as dangerous as a plague. The only way to survive them, thus, is to become them.
This sort of thinking leads to the at least we’re better than Saddam rationalizations for criminal behavior. By feeling better than Saddam we justify our evils. From this perspective, to dwell obsessively on our own crimes – outside the context provided by the really evil people – is to become the Perfect that is the Enemy of the Good. Many attacks on Chomsky are launched from this perspective,
One Gnostic rebuttal to this Anti-Gnostic argument is to question whether or not, given the fact that the vast majority lives within a delusional world (a Fake History), democracy is anything more than a ritual fetish. The Gnostic perspective, thus, is closely allied with the drive toward so-called People Powered Politics (PPP). Real History is the cornerstone of any genuine PPP.
But what if, like Kos, you find that most people’s idea of Real History strikes you as a dangerous Conspiracy Theory? Do you become Anti-Gnostic for the people’s own unrecognized good? (I’ll answer for Kos: YES – though of course you keep PPP as a slogan.)
This conflict easily converts to the ongoing conflict between the Idealists and Pragmatists. Or in other words: How much history can we afford to know? How much guilt can we bear? How many horrors can we be responsible for?
What really frightens me about America is the thought that – as a Roman historian (i have to look up the name… in an actual book!) said about Rome during its transition from Republic to Empire – we can neither bear our flaws nor bear to correct them.
Honored to have played any role in sparking such lofty thoughts.
Fascinating discussions that you all have started. I can’t open yr diary anymore without crashing, Joe, but wanted to point you to a piece by an Indian ex-diplomat The Mother Of All Battles: For Oil, by K Gajendra Singh, for his analysis of much of the history & politics we’ve been talking about.
Has anyone else ever seen the French film Cache? We just watched it last night, & it raises in a very interesting way, questions of guilt/responsiblity, both on a personal & societal level, through the character of an Algerian boy whose parents are massacred & dumped in the Seine in 1961, and the family that takes him in. It’s billed as Hitchcockian suspense, & in true Hitchock fashion, the entire premise driving the plot is nothing but a McGuffin for exploring questions of guilt/responsibility.
Great diary, Simon. I’ll come back later if I can.
thanks, Arcturus.
on a strange and unrelated note: a few weeks ago, prior to my having seen you around here (haven’t been here long), i had a very powerful dream in which it was explained to me that the star Arcturus was somehow ‘the answer’ of some sort. of course it’s foggy now. in fact, i forgot about the dream when i woke up that morning… till later in the day when i saw your screenname and it came back to me.
so i did a little reading online wondering what meanings Arcturus had associated with it. to the Polynesians it was the ‘star of joy’ – if i remember correctly. they used it to navigate to the big island of Hawaii.
Not at all surprised to hear about the pPolynesians. Gary Snyder got me interested in the NA bear mythology, which lead to the paleolithic bear myths & religion, and relates in some weird way to my own sense of ‘spiritual materialism.’
The physical star powered the Chicago Exhibition.
It appears in western poetry from Hesiod to Zukofsky.
well, geez, i am really glad i brought it up. your mention of the bear mythology reminded me of this book i wanted to read years ago, but never did. it’s entirely relevant to the project i’m working on now.
strange. when i read your post and remembered that book, i got another hit of that feeling from the dream, of being on the edge of some deep understanding.
thanks.
I’ve run into that tradition before, but never really checked it out. Too creepy.
of being on the edge of some deep understanding
I hope you find it. Or find the journey worthwhile.
I’ll put this on my reading list. Thanks Arcturus (for some reason, I can’t remember how to spell you name without looking at it).
Brilliant – thanks, Simon. But what was the name of the Roman you looked up? As for me, I’m just wild about Plutarch:
i’ve yet to look it up. i wish my notes were more functional!
thanks for prompting me to actually follow through on that. i’ll let you know…
Livy, in the introduction to his History of Rome:
Thanks – and BTW, I love your sig line.
Many of us know history, from many perspectives, so that we shall not be condemned to relive it. We can know and understand the full impact of history by reading many differing versions of the same event and then analyzing the event as a whole.
We need to know history, not just in pieces but as a whole. The whole includes the societal and psychological reasons – the intent, if you will.
A list of historical events is still just a list unless we understand that why. Without understanding the why as much as the how we will never be able to make change or stop repeating the past.
i agree with your general point concerning the need for an integrated view, but i think to say that a list is ‘just a list’ unless one grasps the whole is incorrect. a list might serve to destabilize one’s previous integrated conception of history. a list, in other words, might upset the ‘why’ you currently believe in.
is not quite as in depth as Booman’s but it’s pretty damn deep. The more knowledge I have of the lists the more knowledge I seek on the why of the actions.
We can make lists until hell freezes over on both sides of the arguments. Until and unless we address the why we can not and will not be able to stop the actions.
i’ve already granted the necessity of an integrated view. my point regarding the possible disintegrative function of a list still stands. you seem to want to insist that only the integrative function matters.
All others are taking actions in a vacuum and the world does not exist in a vacuum. My goal is to stop the actions – by anyone that commits the evil. My goal is to understand what happened and why so that the underlying premise can be defeated before the action becomes another item on the list.
Isn’t the goal to stop the evil?
Or is the goal self-flagellation?
you seem to me to be taking what’s appropriate and useful for you as the definition of what is appropriate and useful. BostonJoe’s diary occurred within a context. part of that context was Booman’s assertion of American exceptionalism on the basis of a couple examples – one being that thanks to America the Saudis are now rich. BostonJoe’s list was a counter to those examples.
Dear friend Sally, where to stop in and write, which one of the many comments, and do I dare even to jump into the frey.
I am not in agreement with you on this whole line of reasoning but rather than go into it (which I must say would be difficult to do and others have said it better than I could at this point) I would ask you to write a diary espousing just what you think members of this site should write, comment on, think, be involved in and how you would go about managing it in a way satisfactory to you on a daily basis..
I love you Sally, but I think you are over reacting on this one, so please take what I have said with the loving intention I had in writing it.
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to jump in with a question I have had since last night, but didn’t know where to ask.
Sally – unless I’ve lost my mind, I thought I saw a diary by you last night similar to the one Diane is suggesting. I know I read the diary and comments, then went elsewhere, and came back to hear more and the diary was gone. What happened?
Yes there was a diary last night and I wondered too, as to it’s demise.
As a writer I felt it was not something appropriate for me to put on BMT. It received the response expected at DailyKos which was a sharing of ideas and ideals. Based on the continued comments at BMT I chose not to expose one more diary to personal attacks so I deleted it. It was hijacked by a BMT member at My Left Wing so the position was not misplaced.
Writers privilege to delete.
That’s really fucking funny.
Were you born this egotistical or has it evolved over time?
Btw, common practice when interacting with a community is to learn it’s customs and rules… one of which is that it is EXTREMELY bad form to delete a diary which members of the community have engaged in. But it appears you are only interested in forming a community which you control the thoughts and interactions on.
The two people that had participated were Military Tracy and DamnitJanet…they know me and understand my reasons. It is significantly obvious by this comment my instinct was correct.
It is indeed funny to me. But funny in a really sad way.
And your “instincts” are your own self-fulfilling prophecy. I just finally got sick of your bullshit and doublestandards and hypocrisy and called you on it.
I was not disturbed, in fact I was kind of relieved. I posted exactly how I honestly felt about participating in a political blog on there, and that has been how it has felt to me lately…….but I’m not sure anything that I had would have been heard and it is very likely I would have received a heaping helping of hate…..I’m certain that I would have eaten dirt for days over it even though my family is a military family and my family does sacrifice for the safety of this nation every single day come hell or high water or good presidents or bad presidents or NATO decisions or U.N. decisions or the manipulations of wounded citizens and neocons! The last six months my husband spent in Iraq his goal every day when he got out of bed was to prevent anybody dying that day and that included Americans, Coalition Forces, and Iraqis. That doesn’t seem to matter anymore though, everybody is evil who is American and doesn’t see things the Ductape way even though he sits on his ass and just writes garbage and is responsible for the safety of NOBODY!
I need to write this even though I suspect that because it’s coming from me and that it will, no doubt, be rejected on that basis alone by you, it might be a waste of words. Perhaps someone else will be helped by it though.
You’re proud of your husband and his sacrifice. No one is trying to take that away from you.
The fact that he chooses to put himself in harm’s way each day must cause an incredible mix of emotions for you. No one doubts that and most here cannot claim to be in your position or to fully understand the anxiety and pain that must cause. That’s very true.
Many here have given you continued support as you deal with your circumstances. That is as it should be.
Now, here is where the departure occurs: the facts behind your personal circumstances do not give you the right to be so blatantly angry and trollish (yes, trollish – because you would not get away with some of what you’ve written here if people didn’t know you; troll behaviour = calling someone “pathetically fucking stupid” along with some other screeds lately).
In my opinion, you are taking advantage (whether you’re concious of doing so or not) of the goodwill the people on this blog have extended to you by refusing to back off when necessary and by sticking people in “less-than” categories because they, unlike your husband, are not in Iraq under threat of death every day. Thus, your logic goes, they cannot be critical of the mission or your country. But, it’s all right for you to do so because you come from a special place of superiority due to your personal circumstances.
Your pain about your situation is very, very real and your attitude is somewhat understandable. No one here can fix that pain, however. And if I were a person in such pain, I might well avoid adding to it by exposing myself to opinions that would only make it worse. That’s not what you choose to do. You choose to face it head on and that is admirable at times, even though it can be psychically risky. As one who has PTSD, I have some experience with that reality and the need to define clear boundaries so I don’t continually harm my psyche by rewounding it.
So, I would ask you to consider why you would choose this outlet – which has been one mainly of support – to box yourself into a very uncomfortable corner from which more people are now distancing themselves from you at a time when you need them.
I don’t hang around on right-wing blogs every day just so I can feel justified in my anger that would surface continually by doing so. I don’t keep friends in my life who would abuse me. I don’t believe in torturing myself in order to prove my martyr status so others will feel sympathy for me.
When I see womething written that I disagree with – even strongly – I respond with facts or a clear statement of my contrary opinion or logic. I temper my emotions – which is damn difficult to do around issues of torture and abuse, so I don’t feel overwhelmed or end up destroying myself. It’s a balancing act. I don’t buy into rage for the sake of rage which I have no energy for anyway and I do believe that compassion is not a vice. Nor is an attempt to truly understand people a weakness.
What I’ve seen coming from you lately Tracy is a cry for help. You may disagree and I could be way off base. But, please, if it’s help and support you need – just ask plainly. The people here who care about you will give it. Alienating those who would will only leave you in a place of tremendous loneliness. This is all just sad. It really is.
Tracy, I hope you see this because I think catnip has shared some wisdom with you here.
And I am going to add one thing – because I know how strong you are and think its important for you to hear as well. I think you owe catnip an apology for the way you spoke to her in the thread a couple of days ago. I’m not going to go back and find it and drudge it all up again, but it was very painful for me to see you talk to her the way you did.
We do all want to support you – but we need to hear what’s on you mind and we need you to respect us and not push us all away.
I don’t need an apology. I’m fine. I’m just concerned because I happen to like this site and many people on it and this discord is hurtful and destructive for all involved.
Whatever happened to just “discussing” topics?
I can understand that you don’t need an apology from Tracy – I’m asking for myself as much as for you.
I have seen Catnip in action and all I am is a new target….but she isn’t going to like it that I won’t be laying down for the shooting here. I am no martyr….not now, now ever…..my tears are real and the people who I know that are involved in Iraq are real and so are their families. No matyrdom there and I think she will be shocked to the bone to find out how much stamina I have when it comes to her taking me out because all of this real to me even though she calls it in different ways collateral damage. I guess I’m an insurgent now.
What has been coming from me lately is a plea for real solutions instead of blame. Seems to me that you like to blame and then go on and on about how you are so blameless. Where Iraq is concerned perhaps you are, but blame does nothing. I read in your posting at Dove’s that you have read The Courage to Heal so I’m assuming you know that carrying shame for others does the person carrying it no good and in fact clouds their abilities to be affective people in their lives. In my opinion you have been doing your darnedest and encouraging others to blame the blameless, the voiceless…..perhaps because you can’t come up with any other answer at this time and people are dying. I can understand this. I will not sit here though and allow thousands of U.S. soldiers who suit up every single damned day and do everything they can for another person to not lose their life in this horrible fucking mess that the Bush Administration has made to be sullied by you in some kind of group punishment. I am one military family voice out there right now while the rest hide in houses scared and unable to do anything and feeling overwhelmed and powerless. High five belittled me by saying that I was in denial about my husband’s abilities to preserve life, I am not nor will I allow you or anybody else to stomp on him. He makes a huge, enormous sacrifice right now that I’m not sure you could even begin to grasp let alone match him in. He will go back to Iraq because his soldiers are exhausted and committing atrocities and they need him, most definitely they do as people like you begin to pound the drums of lynching them. They are people, just like you and me, they are people who have been placed in a horrible situation for reason as varied as the constellations, they have been used and abused by a corrupt and evil administration. I will not allow you or Ductape or anybody else to gut them. The only thing that is personal about all this to me is them. I am tough Catnip. I am an incredibly strong person so please don’t think that you can blackmail me into acting the way you would want me to act by threatening me with saying that I am abusing the my support system here. Anybody who doesn’t understand what is going on with me never really was the support system I needed anyhow, so what does losing them do? Fuck You Catnip and go to hell too, I think you are a rotten to the core person who has dressed it up in nice looking veneer. I am not fooled by your veneer.
I love you dearly Diane.
BUT I will never back down from the position that we must have an integrated perspective. This perspective is core to my values…I would ask that you respect that as my personal value.
I seek long term change of society and people, one on one or one to many, however it may work. If my comments anger people, so be it. We must seek long term change and conversation without blanket rhetoric. We must learn to temper our words if we seek consensus and change. We must be the peace we seek…
So…I understand your disagreement. I understand who I am. They at this point diverge…hopefully not at the cost of a friendship.
An integrated perspective that doesn’t include the thoughts or opinions of others.
Sounds like a good time.
on every comment that I post?
Just want to be clear as to why each of my comments to others should merit a personal attack from you.
There you go with the selective reading again and skirting responsibility.
As far as your participation here, yes, if you’re going to talk trash about this site and members of this community eventually I will call you on it plainly. That’s part of who I am. A member of this community you so disdain.
How fascinating. It is apparent that no matter what comment I post or diary I write, there will be those, including you, that will discount it.
Again my instincts were correct, not an ego thing. It was honed by years of reading comments like the ones in this thread. Experience is a fascinating teacher.
Yes, when it is a continuation of your comments all over this site recently.
I have work to do and your rigidity is obviously not changing any time soon so I’m off.
do you see how your attitude runs counter to your principle? you won’t back down from your insistence on the singular validity of an integrated view… and yet you can’t integrate the disintegrative function into that view.
fact is, most people already have an integrated view of history that they’ve learned from watching the evening news and reading the newspapers. we might regard that view as delusional, but it is nonetheless integrated. a list of facts that don’t jibe with that view might disrupt its integrated stability. without such disintegrative periods, how could integrated views possibly evolve?
integration without disintegration, short of absolute perfection, is rigidity. it is fundamentalism.
Dear Sally, I would hope friendships rest on a higher level than that. I am quite able to disagree with someone and still have a friendship.
I am not disagreeing with your wish to have an intergrated perspective and if fact I don’t think you are the only one to hold that view, and bottom line it is your view, just as others have expressed their view which is contrary to yours.
I think by the very nature of most members participation on this site they are proud and patriotic citizens of this country, whether they support or do not support the governance or any aspect of it at any given time. You do not hold the place card for wanting change, we all do or we would not be here talking and reading.
I am not at home today, at my my daughters, and I am just a little frazzeled over her trip to the hospital last night (she is 3 weeks from due date) for sysmptoms of preeclampsia, so this is about all that I have to offer at this time.
I think Spiderleaf and others comments more fully explain the viewpoint I have on this.
Big hugs to you Sally, still love you!!!!!!
We’ll talk more at another time and another place.
My opinion is that a holistic perspectives are the only ones that will make a change for the long term. So…hugs and take care of your daughter and soon-to-be grandchild.
Seven generations is our impact…may it be peace.
Correction, when I said spiderleaf’s comments reflect my own I meant ‘in part’ and continuing back to other diaries on this subject as well as Scribe’s and Supersoling….but of course I am not in generally in agreement with all or opposed to all of what anyone says, oh dear I think this is getting so confusing.
Personally I have been lost several times as to what your objections actually are because they seem to have evolved into other things apart from what I saw to be the original premise.
Really I do think you should do a diary but I understand your unwillingness to do so.
Heh, I got what you meant, I kinda figured you weren’t in agreement with everything I’ve said.
I’m confused. Has anyone opposed or slighted the value of an integrated perspective? I may have missed something, but I haven’t noticed this as a theme of anyone’s remarks.
and a perception of several here…
This is a continuation of several others diaries linked in BostonJoe’s diary.
really? people are arguing categorically against an integrated perspective? how is that even possible?
isn’t any perspective by its very nature to some extent integrated?
that we need to accept lists of events as stand alones. That we need to accept and ‘deal with’ the ramifications of the “atrocities” or other actions of the U.S. government as single events and lists of events.
It is my position, repeatedly stated, that we can not simply take on the guilt of those actions without knowing the full integrated perspective. Again, my position is that we do not operate in a vacuum. At no time have I argued that what was done was right. What I have stated is that we must discuss the circumstances and the intent if we seek to stop these actions from continuing or recurring.
It is my perception that it has been repeatedly stated that acceptance of the list of events, separate and apart from the why is a requirement for agreement. I am openly and adamantly opposed to any discussion that doesn’t take address of full integration of the circumstances.
What I have stated is that we must discuss the circumstances and the intent if we seek to stop these actions from continuing or recurring.
So, what I want to know is why don’t you engage in that disucssion and put the circumstances and intents forward as you see them? Instead of doing that, you seem to be stuck in railing at the opening to a discussion rather than participating in it.
It is my perception that it has been repeatedly stated that acceptance of the list of events, separate and apart from the why is a requirement for agreement.
I don’t know how many time BJ and now Simon have invited you to disagree and put forward other opinions. I would respectfully ask that you do that and join in the discussion or visit other diaries more to your liking. This particular diary was profound and thought provoking at a very deep level – at least for me. Its hard to see it hi-jacked into this particular rant of yours. IMHO
Yesterday I repeatedly tried to understand the intent of the lists and the purpose that was to be accomplished. It is not possible for someone to put forth a reasoned discussion if we do not know the intent of the diarist. My perception was that in that diary I was told to just stick out my neck and see what happens. I chose not to.
This diary…I responded based on the diary and reference to my diary. It was my perception that my response was reasonable yet it was rejected out of hand. My responses will continue to defend my position as long as my name is used in these diaries as a source of instigation – my perspective.
So…put forth the reasons why I should accept these lists and not an integrated position. I have repeatedly stated my position on why history must be taken as a whole.
I would challenge others to defend their positions of singly out historical events without integration to society and the world as whole.
your response certainly was not “rejected out of hand.” i wrote:
i’ve repeatedly tried to explain to you the possibility of a disintegrative, exploratory, process. that you repeatedly refuse to even acknowledge the point might tell you something about your own thought process.
well, i’m wondering if the unreality of your position is starting to nag at you. if you’re adamantly opposed to any discussion that does not “take address of full integration of the circumstances” then i suggest you stop talking right now.
are you familiar with Meyers-Briggs and related system of character typology? in that systems there’s an axis running between the poles of exploring and judging. you seem so fixated on judging that you can’t even see any value in exploring. that’s what people do in these discussions – explore. to explore requires a temporary suspension of judgement; an at least partial disintegration of one’s established perspective. that’s how we learn and grow.
it seems to me that you’re fixation on one pole is creating a shadow that you’re then arguing with. as you say: “I am openly and adamantly opposed to any discussion that doesn’t take address of full integration of the circumstances.” of course none of us, you included, are even capable of a “full integration of the circumstances”. we are of necessity dealing with partial, limited, perspectives. to not only pretend, but insist upon a pretense of completion, seems to me unworkable.
if you choose to enter into a discussion, why not add the circumstance that you feel needs to be integrated into that discussion, rather than demanding an impossible level of completeness?
If we on a progressive political blog are incapable of combining our knowledge to seek an integrated understanding of world events then we truly are lost.
So…since the consensus here is that I am not adding to your diary I’ll head out for lunch.
Lurking has the unique advantage of avoiding beating my head against a brick wall. I shall watch with fascination as you all come to whatever conclusion it is you are seeking. My perception is that shared knowledge is not part of that conclusion.
Peace
that’s odd, because i think a bunch of other people are still wondering what knowledge you’re trying to share. all you seem to be saying is that certain discussions shouldn’t exist. anything with lists, i guess. how does that advocacy have anything to do with ‘shared knowledge’?
or do you mean to say that from your perspective ‘shared knowledge’ is not a viable model for history? that, in other words, there is a single Integrated View that you have and everyone else should share.
do tell.
Sounds simple enough to me: if you’re going to write about the lousy aspects of Joe Lieberman, George Bush, the neocons, Hillary, the war in Iraq or anyone or anything else you have a one-sided opinion about, you must now balance that with Rumsfeldian Good News™ in order to offer an “integrated” view of your subject. New blog rule, I guess. /snark
I guess since I took yesterday off Catnip thought she had triumphed or something, run me off and now she is finishing her business by doing that one side theatric display I have seen before that she puts on when the other person is “gone”. Hey Catnip, I’m still here babe…..just took a break!
Excellent point. And to me, the cause of nearly all grief on this planet is greed. Greed for money, power, resources. Power comes through religion as well as through military might. Churches and states have worked together to keep the people down and the elite bolstered throughout history.
It’s about money. But it’s really about greed.
In a recent thread in another area I commented on the socialist system in Canada, as perfectly exemplified by the management of the National Park at Niagara Falls. You can’t get a better model. And the people who work the park are happy, happy people. They love it. Tourists love it. It’s beautiful. It’s a win-win all around, but no one is getting rich off it. All profits from the park are plowed back into making the park a beautiful place. It works. Greed is not in the equation.
It might be worth our while to help you rewriting this piece a few times so that it becomes accessable to more people. You sure know how to exercise one’s brain. Let me observe that by not exercising one’s brain and willingly forgetting about ‘reality’ new hard realities can be created, possibly desired realities or outcomes.
Example 1
Forget about the reality of possible flooding of New Orleans and don’t invest in it’s protection. Hard result: the weakest, black, part of New Orleans is flooded and whiped out.
Example 2
Forget about the reality that black people are just as capable as white people and discriminate against them. Hard result: black people do not perform as well as white people and lag far behind white people in nearly all statistics.
Example 3
Deny the fact that Muslims are piece loving people and over all have no reason to attack or seriously endanger the west. Stage attacks on ‘us’ and blame them on ‘Muslim terrorists’. The results are painfully real.
thanks for the suggestion. i do plan on rewriting… or just addressing the same ideas in a different format, like a comic book.
wrote a diary yesterday that seems to be relevant to your diary. We all know that the advertizing industry’s goal is to create realities by telling lies.
How much history can we afford to know? How much guilt can we bear? How many horrors can we be responsible for?
Very powerful thoughts Simon – thank you.
I’d like to inject a little poetry into this philosophical discussion. From a poem by David Whyte titled Revelation Must be Terrible. I hope that Mr. Whyte will forgive me for leaving out the middle section of the poem in the interest of brevity.
Revelation must be
terrible with no time left
to say goodbye.
Imagine that moment
staring at the still waters
with only the brief tremor
of your body to say
you are leaving everything
and everyone you know behind.
Being far from home is hard, but you know,
at least we are all exiled together.
When you open your eyes to the world
you are on your own for
the first time. No one is
even interested in saving you now…
revelation must be terrible
knowing you can
never hide your voice again.
that’s a judgement on my part. Vietnam, for example, was in my view unsupportable. engineering the violent overthrow of Mossadeq was in my view unsupportable. in general, i took that as the point of the list: to counter the popular notion of America as exceptional nation (the rule being that nations behave ruthlessly toward one another in pursuit of their perceived self-interest, using the myth of their own beneficience as a mask).
well, i was talking about his list… but i wasn’t referring to it as unsupportable.
Did Sallycat call the long list unsupportable, did Boston Joe call it unsupportable, or did you call it unsupportable?
as i say above (in my first reply to you), i’m the one characterizing the actions on the list as ‘unsupportable’ – though i suspect that characterization to be in accord with BostonJoe’s sense of them. that is: i think he was looking to list actions he regarded as unsupportable, or at best questionable. but, whether or not he intended them as such, i’d characterize them as unsupportable.
make sense?
should be starving right now too? If not, from your armchair and armed with hindsight, what should have been done where South Korea was concerned……should anybody have came to South Korea’s aid when they called or should we have all just said Tough Shit……Sucks To Be You?
good god, all this effort just to pick a fight? from my armchair, with the benefit of hindsight, it seems to me that you might have been more efficient in your approach.
but regardless, here’s a thought: my point wasn’t to go through Joe’s list one by one but to characterize it as a whole, and so get on with writing my diary. if you want to quibble about the content of that list, the discussion in the comments of that diary is ongoing. it’s not my list and i’m not interested in picking it apart.
as far as i’m concerned, a much smaller list is sufficient to make US history difficult to bear.
I asked a question……not pick a fight…..asked a question. Why is this a fight?
and you were focusing on educating ourselves and not something else. All these diaries have spawned different diaries and I didn’t fully understand how your diary was connected. I am a firm believer in your stance, totally! I believe that in order to really solve problems we have to be willing to know all the facts……not just the facts that we want to know or the facts that support the view that we want to have, but all of the facts that consider everybody involved. I agree with what you are saying in your diary.
conflict averted!
if you’re own language doesn’t strike a bell, i’m not sure that i’m capable of explaining it to you.
and I’m sorry for that. We have close friends who are South Korean, we have a lot of ties to South Korea and it is hard to not get a little bit angry when people suggest that the Korean conflict was a bad no no on America’s part. See, I would not know these people if they had not won that conflict and most of them probably would have never been born and they wouldn’t be able to go see their grandmas and grandpas and their grandmas and grandpas probably couldn’t come here to see them if they had not won that conflict. War is ugly…..but sometimes war comes to you and it doesn’t care nor does it matter if you want to fight or not because you are going to have to fight to survive or you will die, and that was what happened to South Korea. They asked for help, soldiers went……but the people of South Korea were who carried that day and what they wanted for themselves …….their right to their freedom and identity was upheld by people from other nations and some of them died there with them. South Koreans fought blood and guts though for their country and for what they have. They all eat today! And their country is not America’s, it never was and it never will be and they are not our pawns.
Thanks, Simon and BostonJoe, and all of those who commented in these threads. I have, as you can imagine, lots to say on this subject. But since I’ve written so much about this elsewhere, I’ll be brief.
The shortest summary I can say is this: If you aren’t part of the solution, you’re part of the problem. Harsh words, maybe. But that’s what I believe. Ignorance of the law is no excuse for crime. Ignorance of history is no excuse when horrors are done in our name.
We all share responsibility for our government even when bad leaders are elected by “others”. We need to learn our true history, and then reach out to others who don’t have that information, so that collectively, we can all make better choices about our future. THAT is why I’ve devoted my life to the study of “Real History“.
P.S. Re Operation Celeste, mentioned in BostonJoe’s post, I did do some digging into that story, and found much reason to suspect a joint CIA/British Intel/Belgian plot against Dag Hammarskjold. I wrote this up in my article “Midnight in the Congo.” A former CIA operative confessed to the Church Committee that he had been responsible. Of course, such a confession would then make the government responsible as well, and we couldn’t admit to killing foreign leaders. So the Chuch Committee published an interim report called “Alleged Assassination Plots Against Foreign Leaders.” It’s easier to discuss “alleged plots” than actual assassinations.
as far as being part of the problem or solution, i want to add this paraphrase of Rumi:
an illness bears its cure as a mother a child.
or, this paraphrase from Graham Greene’s The Third Man:
‘For thirty years under the Borgias in Italy they had war, terror, bloodshed, but out of that came Michelangelo and the Rennaisance. In Switzerland they had peace, they had democracy for 500 years. And what did they create? The cuckoo clock.’
Dang. I meant to link to the Real History Archives. Use this instead.
Thank you. I’ve visited your site. Very cool. Thanks too, to Simon. This is pretty awesome writing. Sometimes you get the sense of being around thought that is overpowering. At least, sometimes I do. I need dictionaries handy to decipher it, but it is very good.
You remind me of a favorite quote (and I have many of them) from V for Vendetta:
I wanted to leave that highlighted alone, but the next line is also relevant: ” And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn’t there?”
that’s encouraging… thanks.
Ignorance of history is no excuse when horrors are done in our name.
Lisa, my problem with this premiss is the next: who said that they are doing anything in my name?
The government acts in it’s behalf, and no one else.
The government is acting in your name unless you are actively on record opposing it, in my book. Silence = consent.
So when they bshove a gun in your faceand intimidate you into silence, are supporting it supporting it?
But then again that is an extreme case. When they do things behind your back, and hide all proof, then what? Case wire taping before 9-11. There are many instances that that is the case.
It’s an extreme case. I know the point is made when someone reaches like that for the exception.
So long as you are a citizen of this country and not in jail, you are responsible and have choices. If someone pointed a gun at your head and told you to kill someone else, would you do it? I hope I wouldn’t.
some choices, yes, but not absolute choice, and hence not total responsibility. do you remember that comment i wrote to you, Lisa, a few weeks ago, about the search for one’s part within the historical imperative?
i think that’s the same issue that’s being touched on here… which is really the same question as put forth in my diary. the ‘point’ of knowing history is to discover your part in it, that microcosm of responsibility that you bear.
so, yeah, in a sense you’re responsible for the whole, but there’s some sort of stepping down or something, so that we deal with the whole within our part, rather than just feeling paralyzed by Total Responsibility.
Simon,
K/O recently wrote something on his blog about 9/11. He said that his opinion was that as citizens of the US, we really have not had a dialogue at all about 9/11. That struck me as really profound, but I’m not quite sure what to do with it. I wonder if you see my connection to K/O’s comment and your diary? Any thoughts?
yeah, i do. i mention the official 9/11 report as an example of fake history that serves to identify a scapegoat, and thereby protect the guilty while relieving everyone else of having to confront the guilty. to know is to become responsible, and so we try to avoid knowing. so, also, we must avoid discussion, because discussion might lead to knowledge.
in the abstract, it’s easy to be in favor of knowing, but in the actual, knowing comes as a burden that we might very well not understand. when you write, “I’m not quite sure what to do with it,” you touch upon a reason that’s often given for creating a manufactured reality for people to believe in. SallyCat, though i find her fixation unhelpful, has a point in saying that knowledge demands integration. as i see it, the integration that knowledge demands is found only in action. the struggle to express such disruptive knowledge as, say, Bushco complicity in 9/11, is what I refer to as Hamlet’s Dilemma – which is exactly, what do i do with this?
part of Hamlet’s solution, which i’m exploring, is to create a play, The Mousetrap, “in which to catch the conscience of a king.” this reminds me also of what Woody Guthrie had written on his guitar: “this machine kills fascists.”
anyway, i just want to say that that feeling of not knowing what to do is entirely normal.
finally: there has been quite a bit of dialogue about 9/11 in this country and around the world – it’s just all been excluded from official realities, including of course Dkos. and for obvious reasons: what would we, as a nation, do with such knowledge? impeachment doesn’t begin to cover it. hence, as Goebbels said: Truth is the Enemy of the State.
now, again, what to do with Truth? that’s a great question.
I thought some more about this question on my drive home from work (yes, I was blogging at work, but shhh, don’t tell anyone).
My thoughts about the origins of 9/11 are that Bushco at minimum got out of the way to let it happen. And it would be nice to have an open conversation about that.
But what I realized had resonated with me about K/O’s comment was that the grieving process was cut short. I know that for me, I was so sad after the event. Then, it seemed to me that within a few days, the country had moved on and was into revenge mode, ala Osama wanted dead of alive. I just couldn’t relate, I was still so sad. Then we were fighting in Afganistan and the next thing in Iraq. At that point, all us “lefties” had to go into protest mode.
I’ve never been able to figure out if my response was mostly unique to me – the overwhelming saddness that didn’t translate quite so quickly into anger and revenge. But its that conversation that I’d like to have as well; the opportunity to identify what we lost that day (and though the lives lost were huge, there is so much more to our loss than that) and to grieve with my country.
as i see it: the essence of tyranny is the suppression of spontaneous knowing.
REMEMBER: the ‘heart’ is not simply an organ of feeling (in the traditional view) but the root of genuine cognition. to put it in the language of St. Augustine:
“Our task in this life is to restore to health the eye of the heart, by which God might be seen.”
try to see past the religious construct, if it offends you. what i mean to say is that to control people you must blind their hearts. if our task is to restore to health the eye of the heart, the tyrannical State’s survival depends upon our failure. the tyrannical State depends upon its ability to substitute fake feeling for real feeling. for it to succeed, we must not be strong enough to reject the difference.
here’s another angle: following 9/11 there was tremendous sympathy around the world for America. within America and around the world, people responded to the trauma by reaching out across boudaries to identify with a shared sense of humanity and humane value. what a terrible basis upon which to found a global War of Terror!
so, yeah, the grieving process had to be warped to prevent people from going soft and loving one another. we had to be pushed to feel terrified and vengeful toward the very bad men who hated civilization itself. likewise, the world had to be made afraid of us.
just thinking out loud here. hope it’s of some use to you…
Yes Simon, that’s it exactly – what amazing and beautiful thoughts for someone who’s just thinking out loud.
I remember that feeling of the world all coming together. And even in our grief, it was a beautiful thing – way too much power there.
It reminds me of how I felt while reading that web site “Sorry Everybody” that was posted after the 2004 elections and gave us all in the US a chance to say we were sorry to the rest of the world. I cried every time I visited. Another coming together in grief.
this is an important point and i’m glad you brought it up. we’ve all heard a thousand times how Bush squandered the goodwill following 9/11. interesting to consider this goodwill as a dangerous thing that had to be destroyed – or perverted and prevented from heading off in the ‘wrong’ direction. that is, the direction that seemed intuitively apparent to so many people.
very interesting. thanks.
I think that is one of those questions to which there is not a “One Size Fits All” answer.
You describe it as the dichotomy between idealists and pragmatists, my view is that in the current situation, those kind of distinctions are kind of like the $50 bakery cake when there is only $3.00 available for groceries.
The divide, since people seem to like to put things in terms of divides, is between reality and belief.
This divide has popped up in several places lately. Here, certainly, but other places also, both online and off.
On the one side of the divide you see the brave youth, the courageous maiden who says, I don’t care what I was taught, I’m grown up now and I want to know what actually happened, so I can understand what is happening now, and what is going to happen.
On the other side of the divide you see the last reel of the cheesy old horror movie where the monster is at the door and the mothers are all huddled in the corner covering their childrens’ eyes and singing them lullabys in a poignant attempt to spare them what they can of the horror that is to come.
The big question of the divide: Which among us wishes to be the one to snatch those mothers’ hands away?
What is to be gained by that?
It will not change the outcome.
Is the fate not terrible enough without forcing the weakest among them to watch it?
if you read my diary again, you might notice that i indicate a couple times my sense that how much knowledge a person might bear and make use of varies.
Sometimes, people say things that I agree with. Sometimes, I say I agree, and add why.
That’s not such a bad thing. 🙂
nope, not a bad thing. it’d just be clearer what you mean if you wrote something like “yes…” to start off with. as is, it reads like you’re contributing a point rather than an agreement.