Cross posted at Daily Kos.
I’m not writing this diary to stir up controversy or make trouble, I’m writing because I sincerely believe that language has power. Language is the physical manifestation of our thoughts and feelings, and conveys these thoughts and feelings to others. The structure of language — and language itself — has the power to shape the way we think and feel about ourselves, and our world.
For just one example, in the 1960s, before the Civil Rights Movement, it was considered respectful and proper to use the word “Negro.” However, civil rights leaders decided against “Negro” in favor of “Black.” Then, during the 1980s, there was a movement away from “Black” in favor of “African-American.”
It’s crucial for any group that has historically been oppressed or disenfranchised to claim ownership over the way people talk about them. Not only does this help neutralize derogatory language, it enlists the entire community in bringing about much needed social change. By cooperating, we enter into an agreement to transform cultural attitudes that have been contributing factors to social injustice.
“Language” is a thorny subject because you have to use language to talk about it. Language structures our experience; it both creates and recreates culture, and cultural attitudes and beliefs are embedded in vocabulary, syntax, and usage. It can be like walking through a minefield to use language in order to root out the social and political injustice that’s embedded within it.
This exercise becomes particularly difficult when it extends to the subject of gender relations. Women are another historically oppressed and disenfranchised group that has appropriated language as a change agent with respect to deeply embedded cultural attitudes that are demeaning. For this reason, “feminists” are concerned with the way language is used to talk about — or images used to depict — women.
Language has been and remains the single most powerful tool through which male supremacy is perpetuated. Since the “female” is subsumed by the “male” as a property of language, “feminists” must stake out their linguistic territory and be ever vigilant to protect it. I use “feminist” in quotes because every woman who believes in her social and political equality, and claims them for herself, is by default a feminist until we have achieved complete and lasting gender equity.
These examples do not offer an exact parallel to my argument against using the word “troll,” but illustrate the power of language to influence culture for better or worse. Internet usage of “troll” is a big subject. For example, on wikipedia there’s practically a whole book about it. I’m not trying to define the word or offer a comprehensive study of what have become known as “trolls” or “trollish” behaviors. I’m proposing an inquiry into whether or not widespread usage of this word is constructive with respect to the ultimate goals of the progressive blogosphere.
I have spent a considerable time at both Daily Kos and Booman Tribune and can say with complete confidence that the vast majority of participants are deeply invested in caring about the welfare of other human beings. For the most part, these are people who are fairly comfortable and successful in their own lives, but care deeply about the systems and organizations that are (or should be) in place to protect the rights and promote the well-being of others. For me, this is the definition of a progressive. It’s someone who works not only for themselves and their family, but for the good of the entire human community, of the earth, and every living being.
A progressive is someone who can’t be happy just knowing that his or her family and close friends have nice homes, send their kids to quality schools, and enjoy “the good life” with their inner circle. Progressives want every single person to have equal assess to the comforts of life, to be given the freedom to live their lives in peace and dignity, and to have a voice in their government. This is the true meaning of democracy.
The project of the progressive blogosphere, I believe, for most participants, is to work towards preserving and strengthening democracy, and extending it to as many people as possible. This is an incredibly important project, and – if successful – could have significant consequences. In case you haven’t noticed (LOL!), there’s a lot at stake now. We live in dangerous times, and they seem to be getting more dangerous every minute. We want to do everything in our power to achieve our progressive goals, and it’s not always easy to find effective outlets for our activism.
However, I believe we can exercise our activism in important ways simply by changing the way we use language to demonize other people and their behavior through words like “trolls” and “trollish.” There’s simply too much at stake for us to waste time and energy in endless bickering and arguments; and endless bickering and arguments will always be the result when people habitually use language that is dehumanizing.
I have witnessed countless occasions when calling someone a “troll” or “troll-rating” their comment(s) simply poured oil on the fire, derailing discussions and helping to subvert the agenda of the original diarist or poster. I have witnessed numerous occasions when someone from the other side of the aisle has posted a polite comment just to test the waters and was instantly “troll-rated” into Hidden Comments. I have seen otherwise intelligent and important discussions disintegrate into schoolyard babble about whether a certain poster was a “troll” or not. I have witnessed the “troll police” stomping out discussions and people “troll-rating” other comments just to be nasty or vindictive. I argue that if we dropped the word “troll” and named disruptive behavior something neutral but descriptive, it would save us a lot of headaches and help to keep activity on the blog focused on accomplishing our important progressive goals.
I was moved to think deeply about this topic, after participating in a diary that was posted on Daily Kos by Steven D, about a month ago, on the topic of election fraud. I was inspired to go back and study this diary after I found out that a writer whose voice and opinions I had learned to respect and value got banned from Daily Kos as a result of some interactions on that discussion thread. I wanted to witness these interactions for myself and try to understand what led up to the banning.
Please note that I do not use links or direct quotes because I’m uninterested in pointing fingers, getting personal, or rehashing the issue of election fraud. This subject has been done to death in the diaries, and people are going to feel the way they feel about it. No matter how much I might disagree with someone, they have just as much right to their opinion as I have. I made a conscious decision not to use quotes or direct links, and avoid the use of names, because I’m hoping to focus on larger issues that I feel should be of concern to this community.
As I reread Steven D’s diary, I noticed that one person (with an UID in the 90,000) was subtly and persistently needling and baiting the person who eventually got banned. The comments themselves seemed polite on the face of it, but looking at an overall pattern this person’s behavior was clearly disruptive. He or she didn’t have anything very constructive to contribute to the discussion, and was way over-invested in sabotaging opinions he or she disagreed with.
Just out of curiosity, I “shrunk” down all the comments in the thread to subject, name of poster, etc, then copied and pasted them into a Word document. (Even without the text of the comments, this took up 37 pages!) Next I did a “replace” on the name of the person who I thought was being disruptive and — since Word counts the number of replacements — I discovered that this person posted 110 out of the 812 comments in the thread, many less than a minute apart.
I don’t know about you, but I call this being over-invested to the point of addiction. If it had been a bar, and I had been the bartender, I would have told this guy to call a cab and go home! Obviously there’s no limit on the number or frequency of comments one person can post in any given thread, but my point is that there are lots of ways of being disruptive completely under the radar, ways that are hard to detect and analyze, but which in this case, I believe, had serious consequences to another poster, and to the Daily Kos community, which lost the voice of a well-informed, articulate, and valuable activist.
Another side effect of the 110 subtly confrontational comments peppered throughout the discussion thread following Steven D’s thoughtful and cogent diary about election fraud, was to incite a lot of arguments and name-calling that really made me wonder. Who are the people who talk to each other like this? What would it look like and sound like to have them all in a room together, trading insults? Would it be a playground pissing match? A barroom brawl? A post-modern remake of Long Day’s Journey into Night with a family of remote anonymous strangers filling in for the drunken Tyrones?
Reading Hidden Comments over some period of time, I saw that occasionally there were sincere people who appeared to be right-wing refugees from the disastrous Bush administration. They came over to test the waters and were immediately “troll-rated” into oblivion. This seemed sad, as I can easily imagine that there will be many disaffected Republicans looking for a new home, and maybe DK is not a place that can transition them into a better way of thinking, so where can we send them? Do we just act nasty, call them names, and drive them back where they came from?
Recently I suggested on an Open Thread that there should be a site where we could refer disaffected Republicans for guided re-entry into the reality-based communities. The response was, “you can’t rehabilitate sociopaths.” This may be true, but all Republicans aren’t sociopaths. Most of them are people, just like us, who happen to believe in a “conservative” agenda that basically doesn’t exist anymore, and sooner or later a lot of them are going to fly the coop and go looking for a new place to roost. Hopefully, some of them will come to roost here because our progressive activism will support an environment that is less about identity politics and more about human beings. Yes, it’s an uphill battle, but the more tolerant we can be of differing opinions, as long as they are polite, the faster we can heal our nation and set a course for a brighter and more equitable future.
Through studying the interactions following Steven D’s diary, I came to the realization that maybe it’s time for us to grow out of our “troll-calling” phase and invest in a more strategic use of language on behalf of a desperate fight to save our country and our planet. The nomenclature of the rating system accustoms us to language that is little more than childish name-calling and steers us away from the more productive course of addressing the behavior rather than attacking the person. So my suggestion would be for us to stop using “troll” and “trollish,” and get out of the name-calling business altogether. Perhaps the zero rating could be changed to “disruptive, or maybe “spam,” or maybe just plain “zero,” since we all know what that means! And if someone rates a comment zero, perhaps they should post just one more comment that explains the rating in courteous language and then leave it alone.
I believe that in these dangerous times we desperately need to seek the common ground with each other, with our fellow progressives, and with our fellow beings on both sides of the political spectrum. Let’s seek the common ground and plant our feet firmly there. No matter how brainwashed people are by corporate MSM propaganda, they’re still people living out their lives in the same world as us, they have the same needs, and bottom line they care most about the same things we care most about. Maybe someday we will look back on our “troll-calling” days as a phase, a part of growing up with the internet, and rejoice that we were willing to become more thoughtful in our use of language when the time came for us to focus on accomplishing an agenda that is vital to our future, and the future of this planet.
In honor of Blogosphere Day!
At possibly the second meet-up I attended for Dean – in the way-back time – we had two Republican couples come in to see what the excitement was about. They got an earful of harsh, derisive humor of the lowest sort, not just directed at Bush, but at Repubs in general. I need not repeat what they heard, we have all read it again and again, in many places.
To say the least, they were offended. They came looking for a better idea, a better, more honest candidate, a group who would, as they said privately, take governing seriously, social concerns seriously, and fiscal responsibility seriously. They got jeers and catcalls, and I’m pretty certain they ended up voting for Bush again, maybe holding their noses.
That is a problem.
But we also have a problem in being harsh, derisive, and insulting to people who we see as not as perfect in their progressivism as they ought to be. We don’t troll rate people here – at least not at all often. But we do drive people away. And sometimes, the “drivers”, aren’t obvious, I think, as your analysis seems to point out.
Personally, I wish that each of us who posted here regularly would make as much of a commitment as they could to seeing some small group of fellow Tribbers (at least) face-to-face. Those who have seem to have special ability to communicate with each other, and I don’t think that’s accidental.
It is damn hard to really communicate without the tone of voice, angle of body, and movement of facial expressions to help us interpret the words said. Some here can write well enough to overcome those losses, but I’m not one of them. And in the speed of on-line arguing back and forth, few of us are. I will not “name names”, but twice I have heard members of political blogs refer to very strong writers – controversial, highly opinionated, writers – that they have met face-to-face. They were surprised at the ease of talking with the person, in contrast to the written words.
It was hard to write a diary on this topic that I could post at both DK and Booman at the same time, but I was trying to be efficient! LOL.
It is true that the effect of using the word “troll” is very different on this site, and IMHO that’s because people have known each other for a long time and anyone can hang around in the FBL to get to know people better. Also the site is smaller. Once an obvious Disrupter came over from DK and I could see him or her trying to pull the wool over everyone’s eyes. This upset me, but I watched how the community handled this person who finally just got bored and went away since they were unable to stir up any trouble. I know that many frequenters of this site know each other personally and meet up face to face, which is a good thing. Maybe as the years go by more and more of this will happen and things will naturally change for the better in terms of these “usage issues.”
Perhaps we could label a 2 as “Unhelpful,” a 1 as “Rude,” and 0 as “Obnoxious.” But I don’t know that the problem is so much with the word “troll” as with the behavior you describe. Perhaps a tweaking to the comment system that would require the rater to justify their ratings of 2 or below – which would then be posted as a comment – might be helpful (I have no idea how the code for such a system would be written). Perhaps a time delay function to prevent someone from posting too many negative comments in a period of time? I think some technological tweaks to create disincentives to bad behavior might be useful.
I typically won’t join in a discussion that’s getting nasty, and I think most others here feel that way as well. I was tempted to say a lot more than I posted in a certain portion of the front-paged diary yesterday about compulsory service for young people, for example.
Most folks (at least here I believe) have better things to do with their time than engage in nastiness; such things only end up hurting the website and the community in the long run. Sometimes the best response is a collective stony silence, which I’ve seen happen here in response to some “trollish” diaries.
I’m glad mythmother posted this.
I typically don’t particpate in that either, but how should we handle the situations that sometime arise where posters have begun baiting each other in every thread because of unresolved differences of opinion? Until now, we’ve been letting that continue until one or the other is driven off the site. Because we’ve lost a lot of voices this way, I’m not convinced that ignoring the battle until no one’s left standing is the best way to handle it. I want to hear what people outside my usual sphere of interactions have to say, whether I agree with every bit of it or not.
When people start dredging through old comments made by others as ‘evidence’ to use to continue an argument with another poster (and this happens on many sites, not just BT), it gets petty and unproductive. How do we address that?
Suggestions, please.
Excellent question, CG, I have no suggestions! LOL
One of the things that has happened in recent weeks is the situation in the Middle East which seems to be the perfect set up for inflaming identity politics. Maybe on the background of this kind of political situation there is nothing to do but wait for things to die down a bit. I have had to avoid the discussions that descend into identity politics, since this just doesn’t interest me.
May I ask why you characterize discussions of identity politics as things to be “descended” into? Do you define “identity politics” in a negative way?
(In the interests of disclosure, my definition of “identity politics” is loosely: when groups of people who are being oppressed due to some facet of their identity — such as gay folks having fewer legal rights than straight folks based solely on the distinction of being gay — organize politically to fight against that oppression.)
No insult or slight to any group intended, and maybe if you reread the first few paragraphs of my diary you will be reassured that I fully support and advocate for the rights of historically oppressed and/or disenfranchised groups.
I’m sorry, I don’t understand your response. If you think I’m getting huffy then you’re misreading me. I was just asking you why you characterized identity politics in a negative way.
You took exception to and put a negative connotation on a word I used that wasn’t meant that way and I stand on my record as an inclusive and tolerant progressive here.
You said: “I have had to avoid the discussions that descend into identity politics,” and I asked why you characterized discussions about identity politics as things to be descended into.
I’m not “taking exception” to anything and don’t know why you think I am. I merely asked you a question regarding your meaning, since I don’t know you well enough to know what you mean by “identity politics” or why you’d characterize discussions thereof as things to be descended into. I didn’t know, so I asked, along with following netiquette by providing my own definition up front.
If you decide to answer the question, then I might have an opinion on your position, but right now I still have absolutely no idea what your definition of “identity politics” is.
“Identity politics” is a controversial phrase. You don’t know me, but you can read the diary you replied to, you can look at my comment history, so I don’t understand why you are being so confrontational.
One definition of “identity politics” is just what you are doing right now, trying to take something personally that just wasn’t meant that way, even remotely. I don’t profess to know the “right” definition, but will agree to disagree and hope that you will.
“Ascending” and “descending” don’t always have negative or positive connotations, no more than going up and down a staircase, the big picture vs. the details, all equally important, and surely you must know if you read my diary that my usage of the word “descend” was not meant pejoratively to anybody.
WHOA. I am most definitely not being confrontational and you are wildly misreading me. Wildly. I don’t know what the problem is, but I am just going to slowly back out of your thread now. Have a nice night, mythmother.
Sometimes it’s best to stand aside and let things get sorted out on their own, but that can be a tricky thing to do. I think one of the worst things to see happen when this type of conflict arises is to single out some types of behaviour (e.g. quoting someone’s past posts) while ignoring other behaviours (e.g. telling someone to fuck off).
Consistent application of the “don’t be a prick” rule would’ve helped, but it’s too late for that. As I said before, lines were drawn when it became apparent that the site’s administrators and most respected members were giving a free pass to some types of ‘poison rhetoric’ while so clearly admonishing others. At worst, it’s a consipiracy to provide tacit support for those engaged in unproductive, injurious behaviour. But, at best, it’s still dereliction.
That is an interesting statement. I am not sure what it is you were/are wanting from the administrator and the “most respected members.” I am also not sure just WHO a most respected member is or might be. I am not sure if any think of themselves in that way.
Some of us here have been at this for 3 or 4 years and have seen many, many of these altercations. Those who are determined to be “RIGHT” in their opinions apparently have no ability or desire to understand those with differing opinions. As they present their arguments it seems their only acceptable outcome is that everyone must agree with them. Sometimes those on both sides of the argument take this stance. You can respond to them calmly and respectfully and even articulately a thousand times, no a thousand million times and it has no effect except to continue the argument. Most people do not wish to invest that amount of time in something so futile. Choosing up sides never works and is never productive either.
So if you could clarify what expectations you have about those members you so described, perhaps I can better understand your point of view.
Hugs
Shirl
I couldn’t agree more with that statement in terms of what we’re discussing here. I really wish that the human tendency to allow a disagreement to turn into ‘choosing sides’ was not so strong.
I’ll try to provide a more detailed answer to your question later on. I don’t want to just write the first thing that pops into my head, out of fairness and respect for everyone on this site. Please accept my apology that the right words don’t flow so freely from the top of my head.
Overcome by feelings of futility, I give you the post I didn’t submit yesterday, in its original form. I am exhausted from trying to figure out a polite way to describe what I’ve seen happen. Especially after hearing the latest news about who’s being called a traitor now.
I couldn’t agree more with that statement in terms of what we’re discussing here. I
really wish that the human tendency to allow a disagreement to turn into ‘choosing
sides’ was not so strong.
As for who might be a ‘most respected member’, well, apart from the site
owner and front-page posters, that’s a pretty subjective label, and intentionally
so. It’s a personal thing for those who look for solidarity and leadership as well
as for those who, I would guess, self-identify as being leaders within the community
(I suspect that even some of our more modest posters, while they might not want to
admit or talk about their leadership role, for fear of alienating others, see this).
So, to answer your question about my expectations: It’s far beyond me to prescribe
how others should behave. What I am saying is that a) a double standard is
in play when people denounce one sort of prickish behaviour and wash their hands of
other comments which are occurring side-by-side (see my examples above), and
b) the choice to remain silent when someone has clearly crossed the line
into abusive behaviour and is injuring others is irresponsible, and it’s only made
worse when people ostensibly sitting on the sidelines are actually giving
encouragement to the transgressors.
Now, I don’t feel personally that I’ve been injured too badly – it’s easy to dismiss
so much of what was said because it’s just so pointless and off-base (e.g. this
hate-filled thread). I don’t really think that apologies, punishments, or
penances are necessary, though apologies never hurt. But, to use an example, the
comment I was responding to originally was the first one to directly drag this
ongoing conflict back into this otherwise excellent diary filled with thoughtful and
reasoned responses, and the parent poster did so by choosing one specific example to
single out one specific action by one specific person. It doesn’t take a lot of
smarts or creativity to come up with a second example for the sake of fairness, or
to stick to more general terms which don’t single anyone out.
The parent poster asked for guidance about how to address situations which get out
of hand to the point of driving people off the site. My suggestion is to simply be
honest and fair. To everyone.
Not only did I just read the thread you pointed to but to some of the other threads in that same story. All I can say is that I am fucking sick and tired of seeing folks’ religious beliefs dissed, or to see folks being labeled as Anti-Americans and scapegoated, etc. Really, there are several of y’all here who really do act like a bunch of birds pecking on a few others’ crests. It is fucking old. If I were the owner of this blog I’d be a bit embarrassed right now. Right now I’m just sickened. That’s all.
I get bored and admittedly somewhat cranky when the baiting and judgmentalism become ends in themselves; when verbal assault and criticism become the raison d’etre, the prime motivation for someone’s commentary to continue, rather than making a credible criticism supported by factual evidence of some sort and then returning to the topic at hand.
I may not always be as good at this myself as I believe myself to be, but certainly if I disagree with someone else’s perspective or if I object to their casual or overbroad condemnations of others I usually try at least in the beginning to make a clear and well intentioned and respectful case for where and why I may disagree. Admittedly this is quite difficult to sustain over time with some posters here and elsewhere who continually demonstrate the same blanket condemnatory judgmentalism and almost infantile petulance with anyone who doesn’t agree with them, but then life is always tricky and I find that except when people of this bent attain power in politics or religion or business, they usually wear out their welcome eventually and marginalize their own rantings into obscurity. I don’t take their attacks on me personally, and I do my best to keep my own focus on advancing the discourse in order to make it more effective in moving humanity forward, rather than descending into the “you’re with me or you’re against me” shallow judgmentalism that is one of the most used divisive weapons of manipulators and authoritarians everywhere.
I like your suggestion, KP, and think something close to what you describe might be helpful. But I see a bigger problem. When I first started participating here, I handed out a couple of 3’s on comments which I thought were pretty good, but, you know, I wasn’t so impressed as I was by some other comments which were just “stellar”, or “Excellent”, as the rating says. Soon after, I had the good fortune of someone pointing out to me that this is pretty much anathema to BMT culture – either give it a 4 or leave it alone. I could go on, but I guess my point is that, if there is a problem with the rating system, the problem is cultural, not technical. And I don’t have any answers for changing that.
I think that’s why Kos did away with the intermediate ratings, since many people started taking 3’s as a form of criticism. I made the same mistake when I started out.
I should have made it more clear in this diary (sheesh, it’s long enough!) that I am not talking about the way the system is “structured” but the usage of the word “troll” to punish offenders. I think it just makes things worse, especially on DK, but I don’t know if there is really any way to test this.
… I think your point came through clearly. When I said I didn’t have any answers as to how to effect that cultural change, I was actually deferring to you and others who have more talent than I do for this kind of project. I hope your diary has a lasting impact. Now, off to hand out some 2’s and 3’s. :^P
Given the prime directive of BT is “Don’t be a prick.” I suggest the appropriate label is (drum roll please)- Prick.
Regarding structure- I think context is important in any form of communication, as Carlin says, “it’s ok to prick your finger, but you can’t finger your prick.” Your comment and diary history and the nature of the thread you are participating in are important to giving an appropriate rating, especially if it is a negative one.
I have received negative ratings, probably less than I deserved. I think that the main problem people run into is that they just won’t let go. Rather than move on they make things worse by repeating the offensive statements and then counter attacking, often on a personal level.
The next step is the inevitable call out diary leading to a deserved banning (it’s against the rules, it just is) or a voluntary GBCW. Too bad.
I agree with those on this thread who have said that the ability to ‘Prick Rate’ is sometimes given too soon to new users who don’t understand the nature of the discussion and debate customary on the site. A pet peeve of mine though is long term users who deliberately ignore the rules or who have not taken the time to acquaint themselves with them. You are setting a bad example, read the damn FAQ.
One of the things I like about the Tribune is Booman’s amazing tolerance. On the other hand the rudeness of some contributors turns me off a bit. I think something we should all strive for is to be more polite in our interactions, a little of that would go a long way in reducing the frictions between us.
YES. More politeness would go a long way. People can argue and disagree respectfully, or they can get childish and nasty. One can be very informative. The other is just a waste of time, energy, and karma.
It is indeed a cultural feature here at BT to follow the rule “If you don’t have something good to say, don’t say anything at all”. I think this a good corollary to the stated prime directive “Don’t be a prick.” I like it this way, and in spite of the shortcomings of this system I can’t really think of a better scheme.
I like the fact that we have this culture of 4 or nothing. It is a rule that encourages folks to comment. Most folks who post here deserve the 4, but even sometimes when the particular comment is not exceptional and ‘excellent’ in that sense of the word, it is ‘excellent’ that folks comment and share opinions and insights in general, so that’s how I think of it. It also helps us to identify when people have let their emotions get the better of them and they start handing out ones and zeroes like candy.
As for people leaving the site as a result of a dustup, I don’t think any particular system of ratings will prevent such occurrences.
See my comment above which addresses differences of the “organizational culture” of the two sites. Add to that, we are all more familiar with each others screen names, so that automatically makes us all more accountable for our behavior. Anonymity has its pitfalls.
I know squat about computer code, but it seems to me that you raise some good suggestions.
I find this an attractive idea, but I gave you a 4 because it is an attractive kind of idea. Changes in the code change the medium of interaction, and that changes the interaction itself. Culture matters, but this, too, grows out of interactions that are shaped by the medium. If we paid more attention to how the medium could be improved, we’d be way ahead.
Regarding remarks posted above about the 4-or-nothing culture (with some suggesting that it should be used as intended), I’m inclined to say that even if changes in use-patterns were desirable, making these changes would be very difficult. Experience shows that the 0 – 4 rating system
is a (minor) cultural failure; dKos’s change to a simple +/- rating system is a natural adaptation to that experience.
There are several directions that community software could go that would make significant differences, perhaps some for the better. For example, a system could enable semi-private responses to comments — collapsed by default for most readers but expanded by default for the intended recipient.
How often do we find ourselves wanting to offer a comment to someone that doesn’t fit the thread (an off-topic remark, a minor correction, etc.), and to avoid disruption said nothing? How often do we see comments like these that have spawned a huge off-topic discussion (or a war, on some blogs)? Semi-private comments would offer a third choice. More could be said to individuals with less distraction to the community.
To link this back to the topic at hand, an explanation of why you think someone is being obnoxious might best be posted as semi-private. Any resulting flame-thread would be invisible by default. The result would be a significant change in the culture and an improvement (I think) in the experienced quality of diary discussions.
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Troll rating does have a function to ‘delete’ a shameful comment by hiding it from the community. Troll rating function can only be used by TU – the trusted user – and it’s obvious the standard for being a TU is way too low. A TU should be a long-standing community member with many contributions in comments and high expression of comment ratings.
Solution would be to raise the standard before a member can troll rate someone: at least a contributing member for six months, at least 200 comments and a rating average above 3.9. This means 1 zero rating for every 50 ratings with a ‘4’. I used to analyze the disruptive commenters at DK and found indeed often the newbies, who had no track record for his/her own contribution.
Ofcourse it’s all passé, as I was banned from DK.
"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."
▼ ▼ ▼ MY DIARY
I think it’s important to make a clear distinction between what one might find offensive and what one sees as a deliberate attempt to disrupt an ongoing dialogue or an investigative inquiry.
I personally find the self absorbed, knee-jerk broad-brush judgmentalism and nascent bigotry of many people on the blogs as quite offensive, but I don’t always regard them as deliberately seeking to sabotage other conversation.
If a rating system coflated these two things and combined them into one ranking number I woudn’t be able to use that rating selection ever.
Exactly. I was just on DK responding to a diary by a user who couldn’t understand why they were troll rated on another post — even though I’ve been an active member for a long time, I’m not much of a poster myself so I couldn’t read the posts in question to shed any light on the subject. Additionally, this diary was used to bash the diarist without shedding any light on why the posts were troll rated…
This kind of thing raises a red flag for me. Probably a “1” or “2” rating (warning shot) would be more appropriate. I worry that the all or nothing actually makes for a more cliquish community and less of an instructive and inclusive one.
Typically I use the ratings as an acknowledgement rather than as a ranking mechanism. When I rate it’s always a 4, an affirmation not that I necessarily agree with everything the person might be saying but that I specifically appreciate something they say, or that I want to recognize them to know I recognize a value in their contribution, ot=r because I want to thank them for acknowledging favorably something I said.
When I disagree with someone, even when I disagree strongly with someone and may even find their comment offensive I simply don’t rate it at all, preferring to respond in print to express my view.
So basically affirmationand specific appreciation gets a 4 rating, and routine or disagreement inspiring posts are met with no rating at all. This seems to work fine for me because I don’t want to grade the degrees of my appreciation for someones posts; rather I simply want to say yes I appreciate your contribution and want you to know.
I generally do the same. I think in all the time I’ve had TU I only used it once — this post broke all the rules of trolldom: profanity-laden personal attacks on posters meant to generate more heat than light. Even then, I explained my rating.
I can’t think of any reason for a ‘3’ but the warning shot ‘1’ with an explanatory post can be helpful. It keeps the post from disappearing if it is marginal and gives the original poster a chance to explain or correct the post.
Just wanted to thank all of you for your thoughtful responses. I have to go to work, but will be checking back later!
Now I know what you’ve been doing on your “break”… 🙂
It’s a fine line between culling true “trolls” without pushing away those with honest disagreements over policy or actions. I figured that “trolls” had to do with “trolling for controversy” or some such.
That doesn’t mean there aren’t people who are just out to cause controversy and dissention, especially as we approach the midterm elections. But I think it’s important to realize that most likely there are fewer of them than we think, and until proven otherwise, it’s best to give them the benefit of the doubt.
I’m racking my brain to figure out a solution, but it’s too hot to think. On some boards you can have an “Ignore this user” that blocks out all posts by a particular poster, on the assumption that if that person is ignored enough, they’ll go away. Maybe we just need to do this personally — don’t respond to obvious “trollish” behavior (“Don’t feed the trolls!”) and eventually they’ll get bored and drop out. This will require a lot of attention from some of us long-timers, to make sure that the new folks with honest questions or concerns are welcomed, so we don’t turn into some sort of political clique (we’ve already got one with the DLC, lol).
Awesome diary, MM… 🙂
This may not be a solution-oriented comment necessarily so much as one that might provoke further thought on a difficult subject.
I have some background in the study of cultic dynamics, and more broadly the mechanisms and tactics for deceiving others and inducing compliance.
It’s my experience that every cult leader, every effective extremist religious leader, and pretty much every successful swindler and propagandist understands how basic the manipulation and control of language is to their ability to dupe and otherwise weaponize the ignorance of their target audience.
And one of the simplest ways in which these “compliance professionals” do this is by oversimplifying the language in ways that discourage detailed scrutiny of complex issues by reducing the explanations of such issues to simple generic words. A crackpot religious cult, in an effort to keep their followers from examining too closely what they’re being told or asked to do might adopt a phrase such as; The only reason you have doubts or reservations about what we’re telling you is because you’re not yet close enough to God. And so, when a follower of, let’s say, one of the lesser stealth Moonie cults finally begins to suffer the long-term deleterious effects of poor nutrition, 20 hour work days, compulsory prayer and meditation sessions, and when they express the fact they’re really hurting, they’re told it’s because they’re not close enough to God, and because they’ve been incrementally programmed over time to accept this simple-minded explanation, they submit themselves to further abuse.
Anyway, not to get off into a long dissertation on cult atrocities, by oversimplifying complex ideas with the use of simple generic terminology, further inquiry is undermined because the person is robbed of the language necessary to investigate things in more detail.
The other thing that is universally acknowledged in the world of cultic and compliance inducing behavior is that most of the effective dynamics of coercion are played out on the emotional plane, not on the plane of reason, of rational examination of the facts. (The only ones who don’t seem to get this are the strategists who’ve been screwing up the Democratic party since 1992.)
Anyway, when I think of “troll”, for me it refers to someone who is working to deliberately disrupt a conversation for his/her own purposes. Like gasbag pundits on the talking head shows who talk over the opposite guests and run out the clock on them by hogging the airtime. But as mythmother points out so well, we need to be able to make a clear distinction in our own minds between this sort of behavior and that of people who, far from being deliberately disruptive, just have a different view and want to express it. And understanding the simple mechanics of how simplistic language can lure us into these sorts of “traps” may be helpful in enablingus to break the habits of being manipulated as easily as we often are by this technique.
amazing stuff!
This is incredibly insightful and really sets me to thinking, especially in light of some responses I got such as this one:
http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2006/7/19/11717/8583/11#11
I come at it from a completely different angle, since I sincerely believe that there really is no “other” and the less we think there is the better. I think that objectifying and generalizing an “other” group of humans from ourselves that should be exiled from our community based on collective undesirable characteristics is not constructive.
Based on your comment and some others I can easily envision a user-moderated forum evolving out of our experiments and explorations that is much more sophisticated while at the same time remaining “user-friendly.”
Yes! The persistence of the “us vs. them” theme is perplexing, if not predictable. And yet even this hearkens back to a certain extentto the language control tactics I referred to earlier.
As an example, all cults, all extremist religious organizations, all warmongering governments require that they “divide” those who would follow them from those who are “outside”. Those inside become “special”, they are the favored few; those without become the “other”; people to be suspicious of, afraid of, and people who need to be demonized to a degree that allows the fractured ideology of the favored group to be seen all the more heroic and wonderful by comparison.
But all of this is manipulation. And, whatever the original meaning and intent of the word “Troll” might have been, the “troll rating” has now morphed into something that, rather serving as a simple filtering device for truly disgusting content, is now used as a slap at opposing opinions, and even sometimes as punishment against those not showing “proper deference” to preferred posters or to the blogsite itself.
I agree with you that, in fact, existentially, humanity wise, there is no “other”. Trolls are just those who oppose what they think are our points of view for whatever reasons and seek to disrupt productive discussion of them. But they’re like smokers who want to impose themselves on you by insisting they have a right to smoke in your house even if you don’t want them to. Or like religious nuts who feel they have the right to impose their punishments on you for not living according to their own beliefs. They’re not “other”, they just have adopted habits that are deliberately intrusive and disruptive. For me, I see this the troll business as a matter of “Let’s condemn the sin but not the sinner”, (or however that little ditty goes). In the meantime, I feel no need to defend myself or my views by demonizing or otherwise banishing those who don’t agree with me to the status of “them” or “other”. I think it’s a sign that we as a species may not be as civilized as we like to think we are that so many people do, in fact, need to discredit others by “excluding them” in this way. They’re only hurting themselves in the long run by doing this, and setting the stage for more suffering on the world stage.
I’ve railed fairly often right here on this site against the broad-brush judgmentalism of several of the otherwise brilliant writers who contribute here. It never occured to me to troll-rate them because I don’t see them as trolls; I just find their nascent bigotry and xenophobia offensive.
“And, whatever the original meaning and intent of the word “Troll” might have been, the “troll rating” has now morphed into something that, rather serving as a simple filtering device for truly disgusting content, is now used as a slap at opposing opinions, and even sometimes as punishment against those not showing “proper deference” to preferred posters or to the blogsite itself.”
That just about sums it up, sbj!
I have also very rarely “dished out a donut” maybe on one or two extreme occassions, and never on Booman Tribune, though I confess there are times when I would have liked to in response to exactly the same attitudes that you mention.
I haven’t given up on this project, but it may be that the word “troll” is too deeply ingrained in internet culture at this point. Things that seem obvious to me, such as the fact that it’s childish name-calling, that it inflames continued disruptive behavior, and that it is counter-productive to our agenda as progressive activists — done seem obvious to many other people! I guess I will just have to reconfigure them in my mind as the “other” that sets me off in a special more enlightened category! LOL!
done seem obvious to many other people…
should be:
don’t seem obvious to many other people….
Ah yes! The “we who are not the other” club. LOL indeed!
Wow, MM, this diary rocks!
I think it would be great if when long-time users begin arguing here, they could somehow get in touch with each other on a more personal basis and hash stuff out. Maybe that’s too much to ask but I know from my dust-ups elsewhere that it’s easier to feel attacked in a public forum when you can’t really see or hear someone. Or maybe there could be a mediator or something online that would help each party find common ground, facilitate apologies, etc. Healthy communities find ways to reintegrate those who have transgressed or made mistakes-maybe we can too.
Personaly I don’t rate anyone because I don’t usually get to stick around long enough to figure out the system!
I use foul language sometimes to express myself. I rant.
But one thing I try very hard not to do is abuse others verbally. I grew up with that type of abuse. In the past in “real life” I would just jump right back in at you and tear you apart verbally. I can do that… but I don’t anymore because I’m trying to walk my talk.
I’ve seen much abuse here and it’s really sad.
I’ve been in threads where the shit starts to hit the fan and generally I do one of a few things. I try to make peace. I read the other comments seeing if I can gleen some new perspective and also try to understand why there is even an fight.. and alot of times I just dont’ engage.
But what’s so hard is that when one is just sharing their perspective, not engaging, not arguing.. .just stating their own views, experience… I don’t think verbal assaults should be warranted. I’m not here to fight. I, and I think many, are here to learn and share.
The world is falling apart on so many levels… we need to fight THAT. Not each other.
Many voices have been silenced this week. Many wonderful, hard working activists have walked away. And that’s a huge loss. Not just for a blog.. but for us all.
As to trolls, yeah they suck.. but it’s not as bad reaching out to learn or share or try to understand and get slapped down. The best way to gather new friends into the peace movement is not to scream at them but to try to reason with them… or sometimes… not to engage.
I’ve had people throw shit at me. Spit at me, scream in my face with their putrid breath.. calling me names that would make you sick. Yes, I get insulted, offended… but I don’t engage. Sometimes… that speaks volumes in and of itself.
Peace. It’s really fucking hard to live by but it’s worth it.
one continually raises the spectre of infilttrators, spies, and instigators within our midst, which then immediately raises the concern of how do we proce that we aren’t, which is often if not always followed by social pressure to toe a line to prove one’s loyalty.
troll is the new communist agitator.
none of this means that there aren’t people who show up with the express purpose of disrupting discussions, or intentionally posting crap that can be used to paint the site in a bad light, but just that the language of trolls on the blogs is strikingly familiar to other paranoid seige mentalities, especially once it gets extended to proximal things like “purity troll” or “concern troll” which is another word for “people who don’t agree that we should compromise here.” which in itself isn’t really trolling as it’s comonly understood, and isn’t even a bad thing in any self respecting conversation between adults, if you think about it.
words have power. we should be aware of how our use of language controls the flow of our thoughts, and the shape of communties.
Events here have made me change my stance of never using any rating but 4’s.
My understanding is the ratings system is NOT about rAting PEOPLE, it’s about COMMENTS.
BIG difference. Really big difference.
My choice from here on will be to start downrating ANY comment, no matter WHO it, if it containts personal attacks, name calling and/or profanity ditrctrf at the person of another writer.
After re-reading the trusted user guidelines, I feel badly for not doing this all along, through this latest seige. As a TU who wants to see this remain a place of civil discouse, I need to shoulder that part of my responsibility here and I intend to from now on.
I can spell. I just can”t tipe!
A tit-for-tat strategy is pretty much the approach I’ve been taking. I rarely troll-rate, and if so only if someone else has troll-rated one of my comments. As someone who has no intention to “troll” (I may be a bit of a contrarian, and increasingly curmudgeonly), I figure I won’t be bullied into silence – which is typically why folks start to zero rate in the first place: they don’t want to deal with words they find inconvenient.
It’s real simple. I don’t zero rate as a general practice (as a believer in the Golden Rule), but if you start zero rating me, I’ll return the favor (note, I’m only using “you” in a general sense). Stop zero-rating me, and I’ll likewise stop. Tit-for-tat. It’s a strategy that actually works quite well both in computer simulations, experimentation on human subjects in the lab, and in real life (I’d refer you to a book by Axelrod for the lowdown on the theory and research behind the tit-for-tat rule).
I’m also a believer in dropping a few 4’s if I notice someone’s been unfairly picked on. I doubt I apply that perfectly, but I do try, figuring that I’d hope someone would do the same thing for me in a similar situation.
It’s actually to Booman’s credit that this blog has been largely free of anything even remotely resembling a troll; the group norms for interaction were established reasonably early on and for the most part folks have stuck to those norms. It ain’t paradise, but I’d offer that anyone hoping for a conflict-free utopia in any human interaction be it in person or online is going to be in for disappointment after disappointment.
the irony to me is troll originally meant “troll” as in “fishing for replies”… and it could be getting any kind of automatic response but especially negative one’s that are easy to plot.
But of course it’s come to mean more “monster” trolls.
by the way… send them to swordscrossed.com, where they can engage the left without being trolls just due to ideology… unless you know another place.
I’d say MLW, but I bothered some of my fellow MLWers that way before.
I don’t seek common ground with right wingers, whether they call themselves Republicans, Conservatives, Democrats or Progressive, although I do invite them to share my ground… which is probably one reason that, while I vote in every election that there is someone to vote for, I’m not heavily invested in the political process. I’d never make a good political operative 😉
Of course, as you are aware, not much of this diary applies to this site (yet), but I think some of your overall points are good. I am not sure changing the word “troll” to something else would do much good, however. I rarely do more than skim the headlines at kos, so I may be wrong in that, for that site.
Here, though, where the word itself, or the descriptive “trollish” is not in much use, and most frequently when used at all (along with the ratings) seems to mean “someone I dislike”, I think the discussion would be better geared towards ways to disagree and debate, short of the current apparent attempts to ostracize, using demonization and personalization.
Thank you MM.
I have been thinking how “diversity” can be a real pain in the buttocks. I have read some folks say they like differing views, cause “who wants everyone to be the same?”
When it comes to food, art, music, etc., differences can seem interesting. But as we move into areas and issues that touch more closely held beliefs and issues that some consider integral with their very “core,” then things begin to heat up. Then “diversity” doesn’t seem so interesting but rather threatening. Then what happens? There’s a “war.”
Just like in the real world.
How do we stop it? I don’t know. Have people ever been different?
Want peace? Then be peace. One of the reasons I am here at BT is to figure out what that means and how to do it.
But others are here for other reasons – dang diversity. 😉
I am now waking in the morning, wondering if anyone has used nukes as I slept. I check the news, then think, “Okay, today is a good day. Maybe today we can figure out how to live together.” Of course, it helps when people want to live together. There’s that “diversity” again. 😉
Oh my… I wake up with the same thought, too!
that we all possess some portion of the truth.
As a white male, I have been treading in waters that are bound to be turbulent. I find it best to realize that I very likely take for granted certain assumptions that don’t necessarily jibe with the realities others experience. Sometimes, I am given a gentle reminder of my ignorance; sometimes I get knocked upside the head. The first impulse is to double up the fists and prepare to fight. It’s good to ignore that impulse and instead ask “why do I feel threatened?” or “what can I learn from what this other person is saying?” or even “what do we have in common?”
Learning is hardly a painless process. Having one’s core beliefs challenged is going to feel uncomfortable. What I keep reminding myself is that out of that momentary discomfort, I find opportunities to grow and hopefully be a somewhat better person. By the same token it’s worth keeping in mind that not everyone is going to be as receptive to those moments of discomfort and lay off if it’s obvious that the other person isn’t quite ready to deal with what I’m trying to tell them.
That’s as close to “being peace” as I know how to be at this point in my life.
I’ve spent a goodly part of this day and yesterday thinking about the issues raised in this diary (thank you, mythmother.)
I am concerned about the departure of some people I value as writers and commenters, in the heat of anger and attacks. We aren’t where the flame wars of DK are, but what we have here may be more painful, as we sometimes know the people better. A smaller community does produce more knowledge.
I’ve been taking notes – on paper, which is painful (we had a power outage for 24 hours), about writing something in reaction to this. My thoguhts have ranged from something that sounds serious, turgid, translated from the original German, as my husband would certainly point out, to sometime more humorous. (No offense to actual German writers is intended – my German is also terrible!)
But there is also the effect on writing about other matters. These conflicts produce avoidance. Haven’t finished my series on childhood mental health among poor kids, as I started several months ago. That may not be important, but I am going to try not to have that happen.
I don’t think there is a simple structural thing that will fix these issues, like changing the rating scale, or asking that lower numbers be explained – they often are, as rather angry interchanges or as demands for more information.
Oh well, I hope we can have peace among ourselves, as it is so singularly lacking at this moment, in too much of our world.
Hope
Good topic, MythMother. Of course I know the diary to which you refer!
I have longed for a ratings system that more accurately described what was going on. I, for one, have a very specific definition of troll behavior – one who deliberately sets out to derail a discussion, through false politeness or rudeness, it matters not.
I want the following buttons for comments:
I completely agree
I agree, with reservations
I disagree
I think this is off topic
I think this is useless
This is mean/rude (although usually that’s not really different from “useless”)
I also agree strongly on the point re welcoming Republicans. I’ve known several ex-Republicans who came to the Democratic side over some issue. In part, they left because they were turned off by the rhetoric of hate.
If we become their mirror, rather than their opposite, we’ll be mean too. I don’t think that’s productive. I don’t think that wins converts. I don’t think that’s representative of our compassion. I think it’s just stupid to be rude and mean.
Re language – I’ve been wanting to say something along these lines myself, on a slightly different set of words. I think saying “Rethuglicans” and other derogatory terms are no different than calling an African American by the N word. It’s painting with too broad and too negative a brush. It’s as bad as “feminazis” and that other language pollution.
I call it “labelism” – it’s as bad as racism, and similar, in that we’re assigning attributes to an entire group of people simply because they share an attribute in common.
We’re living proof here, in our disagreements, that all liberals/progressives are not alike. So how dare we paint Republicans with such a broad brush? They, as a group, are not the enemy. Individuals within their party AND OURS are the enemy. People who choose personal greed over public service – THEY are the enemy.
So yes. I think it’s really worthwhile to talk about language, and to be less careless with it.
And I think tolerance and not letting things get under your skin are critical.
The best way to handle disruptive people (who I would call trolls because they are trolling for attention)is to ignore them. It’s the only thing that absolutely works, 100% of the time. Don’t waste time arguing. Don’t try to embarass them. Just ignore them. True trolls will go away if they have no effect. Hey, I can get sucked into an unproductive back and forth as easily as the next person. But when I step back and think about it, the best thing is always to move on. Frankly, I think most people have the same aversion to those who always have to have the last word that I do. When I see someone do that, it usually turns me off, even if I might have agreed with their point originally.
We’re all going to disagree with each other, sooner or later. No two people think entirely alike. Just because someone disagrees does not make them the enemy. But it also means that not all who agree with you are NOT the enemy, either! 😉
Lastly, people are 1) not stupid and 2) probably aren’t paying attention. the greatest humiliation of your online life was probably noted by a lot fewer people than you think. If you feel you are in the right, you may well be perceived that way by others. If you aren’t in the right, no amount of arguing will make it so. Acknowledge the error and move on.
As long as we’re imagining new ratings systems, I think yours is at least a good place to start. However, I would like some ratings that allow me to reward excellence that I totally disagree with or have no opinion on. How about ratings that include:
Nice comment, well written, whether I agree with it or not
Thank you for participating, I’ve never thought of it that way and I’m not sure what to think
I think that you are totally wrong, but I respect your desire to explore this issue, please continue
I think that you are somewhat correct, please clarify
You stated someone else’s position but provided no link(s)
I think you are a troll, but I have no proof other than a theory inside my head
You are a troll and I have proof – don’t make me publish it, just leave
🙂 (trying to look innocent) 🙂
I honestly and earnestly clicked on the reply button to your comment with a desire to try to add one or two ratings possibilities to your list and make it more “complete”. This comment was originally titled “I agree, with reservations,” however, I soon found myself way off on a snarky, hopefully not trollish, exposition of a few of the possible permutations of ratings used as shorthand for commentary. My surprising conclusion (maybe not, given my upthread comment 🙂 ), is that ratings will never serve as a shorthand or shortcut for a comment. I think the drive to improve ratings systems is futile, and that the answer is to leave a comment. If one doesn’t care enough or have time enough to leave a full comment, one shouldn’t expect a rating to do it for them.
I do think that we could implement a culture wherein we use your phrases or others as comment headings in order to immediately indicate our agree-disagree-other feelings, though. At the moment, comment headings are usually inefficient and irrelevant uses of space.
dKos simplified ratings system hasn’t stopped any bad behavior, nor has MLW’s expanded ratings system stopped difficulties from developing. I tend to think that humans and our interactions are too complicated to relegate to any ratings system that would be both complex enough to be useful and simple enough to actually use. Thus, we need to focus on our words, not some assigned numbers.
The current cultural ‘4 or nothing’ here at BT is so simple that it is easy to use and doesn’t usually distract from the words underneath. It is also vague enough to be flexible. Lots of times I give out 4’s to encourage discussion without taking sides. I also give out 4’s to encourage newbies that show promise, but with whom I may not totally agree. The concept of ‘excellent’ is flexible enough to incorporate these usages, at least in my mind. I also fear that a great post with grammatical difficulties or misspellings might be rated less than a four because people like me are too nitpicky, so I like not having the option to downrate based on communication ability vs. content.
In short, I think complicated ratings systems don’t do much good and that they can do harm. Why not just keep it simple and insufficient rather than making it complicated and insufficient?
I was hoping you might turn up, though I suppose you’ve been around but I haven’t seen you. I’ve been participating less as a conscious decision since I need to focus on some personal projects, but one project that has been nagging me was writing this diary. I started it way back after the fall out from Steven D’s diary in June, but then had to really decided what it was that I was concerned about and take a few deep breaths and a few giant steps back and start all over. So there are probably only a few sentences left from the original diary.
I agree with everything you say here. It really concerns me to see that more and more people have defaulted to using what amounts to hate speech, since how do we distinguish ourselves if not by being thoughtful and inclusive? It’s so much fun to think someone else is bad and stupid and feel superior, but having more enlightened political views doesn’t really make us superior, especially if we can’t express them using “enlightened” language.
There is a forum called “Real Cimate” where I lurk sometimes and I was reading the discussions that came up about Al Gore’s film which sometimes got intense. At least one person came on with very prejudiced and partisan views and expressed them rudely and their comment was deleted. When they complained the moderator simply said, ‘please express your views politely.’
For me there’s a huge difference between asking people to express their views politely and calling them a troll. There may be widely divergent political points of view, but everybody knows what “polite” means. So I think now that the “trolll-calling” experiment has had a change to play itself out it might be worth reverting to concepts of courtesy that apply to both sides. After all, it’s rude to call someone a troll, so how can you blame that person for being rude when you are being rude yourself? Besides I think, especially to newcomers, troll-this and troll-that just makes us sound silly. Not that there is anything wrong with being silly, but I think the main project of this to get some serious work done.
Well, here’s my only concern with “polite.”
I spent five years among the spooks in the Internet forum alt.conspiracy.jfk. There were rude spooks, and they were obvious to spot. But what was really sad was there were very kind, warm, loving, polite LIARS who hijacked the forum from time to time with all their polite lovely lies.
So polite, in and of itself, doesn’t impress me. And sometimes troll is exactly the right word. And trolls can also be oh so dangerously polite.
So that’s my beef, if any, with this post. And I don’t really think it’s a beef. I think most people haven’t experienced the separation of “nice” and “good” as thoroughly and repeatedly as I have. So nice should be a prerequisite, but expert trolls can be very nice, and we should still be on our guard.
The reason to call someone a troll, and I do think it should be used now and then, is to point out trollish behavior. Snark, without substance is useless (as opposed to meaning-filled sarcasm, which can be enlightening if done well. Snark is never educational – that’s the point of snark.) People who ask questions they really don’t want the answers to do so to distract and pull apart a thread. I consider that troll behavior. It doesn’t matter if the questions are polite. I’ve been doing this long enough that I have a pretty good radar for genuine questions and questions designed solely to lead the conversation in an opposite direction. It’s a standard intel/cointelpro tactic.
So that’s my rant. Nice and polite are a start, but they aren’t the end. And if I have to takede and honest, vs. nice and lying, I’ll take rude and honest any time.
that should have read (and I swear it did when I hit post) “I’ll take rude and honest”.
And to further clarify, I don’t think it’s rude to call someone a troll if that’s what one believes, and why else would you call them a troll? It’s either accurate or inaccurate, but I wouldn’t call it rude.
Ditto calling someone a liar. If someone tells untruths over and over again, I think the liar appellation is appropriate, even if they deny the lie and say they were honest mistakes. That’s a pretty well-worn excuse for lying, IMO.
I guess we have some very different values here with respect to language. I think it’s rude to call someone a liar whether I think they’re a liar or not, and here’s why. The word “liar” is insulting and inflammatory. It distracts from the main issue of the “intention to deceive” and misinformation and becomes a personal attack. A liar will just keep on lying, so what’s the good of name-calling? Then they will get all huffy and self-righteous and ask, “are you calling me a liar?” So then you have to go down that road, and from there it’s hard to get back to the substance of what was orginally said. I would prefer to stick with the substance of what was originally said, since it’s just a question of whether the facts are correct or the intention to deceive was present. “Liar” is attack on the person and I prefer to avoid personal attacks, no matter how sorely I am tempted! LOL! So my belief that someone is a liar is not the measure of whether or not it is rude to use an inflammatory word and make a personal attack on them. My issues with calling people “trolls” are basically the same.
That said, the whole internet “troll” phenomenon is complicated and I didn’t set out to do a comprehensive study of it. As a case in point, the person I mentioned in my diary was always “polite” and I never intended to make courtesy the measure or standard of whether a person is being malicious or disruptive. But I believe in courtesy as a personal value, and I don’t want to throw out the baby with the bathwater! I think there were many good ideas — including yours — in the responses to this diary and I want to take some time to think more about it.
The only value, as I see it, in calling someone a liar or a troll is that it gives others a heads up that this is not a trustworthy source. Because people say things all the time that are hard to verify. But if someone has said things that are false, destructive, derailing, etc. on a frequent basis, then I don’t think it’s rude – I actually think it’s helpful to others.
When I see someone I know and trust call someone else a liar, I start looking at the other person’s comments more skeptically.
So we’ll probably have to agree to disagree re this. But that’s why I have and probably will in the future called someone a troll or a liar – I’m trying to help others, as I see it.
Just upthread…
“YES. More politeness would go a long way. People can argue and disagree respectfully, or they can get childish and nasty. One can be very informative. The other is just a waste of time, energy, and karma.”
So I was caught off guard when you suddenly did an about face on the politeness issue.
I’m sorry you see those two things as contradictory. I prefer politeness. But if I had to choose between a polite lie and a rude truth, I would choose the rude truth.
If I DIDN’T have to chose, I’d chose a polite truth.
I’m saying politeness is good, but it is not an end goal. Truth should be the end goal.
Just want to thank everyone for your wonderful input! I didn’t get home last night until late so wasn’t able to check back until this morning. I read everyone’s responses and took notes and will carefully consider all of this very valuable input. I will be checking back and adding more responses.