Right wing nationalism. Racism. Xenophobia. Exceptionalism. Paranoia. Militarism. Chicken and egg. Call and response.
Old familiar stories, far too often told, and no less disconcerting when the tales are being woven within the pages of a book labeled “Progressive”. In fact, in my case, it is more so. There is that sense of dissonance one feels when you think you are grabbing on to one thing and it turns out to be something else entirely.
I have long been concerned at the coalescing of activists, political factions and so on around being anti-Iraq invasion, war and occupation – in other words, anti this war – with little or no discussion of what else binds them together. As we’ve seen lately… in some cases, not a lot. Or, at least, not enough. I am not actually adverse to such temporary coalitions – with full knowledge. I’ve found it best to not only know who you are walking with, but who, in turn, is walking with you.
So. Anti-American.
That’s a term that has been bandied about a lot here recently, from the top down. So, I’m wondering… what does that mean to people? To be “Anti-American”? I’ll point out some things, but it’s far from an exhaustive list.
For some it seems to mean being anti-US Military. Or, it may be better said, anti some interpretations of how one apparently must view the U.S. military, in order to avoid being anti-American.
Leftists who don’t believe in, or justify in any way, American Exceptionalism also apparently qualify as anti-American.
Let’s see… who else. Ah, peace activists. If you believe in ‘never war, there are always better ways to do things’, and that respecting human rights and social justice can and will lead to peace, apparently you are also anti-American.
And, of course, if you are non American and are any combination of the above, you are definitely anti-American.
I am of the view that this sort of language, especially arising as it has been out of militarism, is far from benign, and is usually calculated to bring about a result. There is a reason the right (and sometimes left) wing uses demonization and nationalistic language time after time after time. Because it works… every single time. Although, thankfully, not on every single person.
I’ve considered keeping silent, but I think nationalism, especially arising out of militarism, is way too dangerous a product to be left sitting like the elephant in the room. Instead of staying in the one place you put it, it tends to sprawl out, taking up residence here and there, knocking over lamps, crushing knick-knacks underfoot and in general is not a very pleasant houseguest. Brushing it under the rug also seems to have little effect.
Others no doubt know far more history than I do, but I can’t think of any time when such language and sentiments as have been being thrown about, followed to their conclusion (or even just on the way to it), have been harmless and beneficial.
Besides, I’m curious. I want to know what is going on… it’s not just here, either. I know that as things head into electoral season, the tendency of those concentrated on ‘electability’ is to swing to the right (although usually not with such neck wrenching speed). Am not exactly sure why as, as far as I can tell, that has not been much of a winning strategy.
Or maybe it’s just the frayed nerves from all the messes going on around the world… and after all, someone must be to blame.
Whatever, I tend to ask questions when I don’t understand something, and what has been going on around and about lately I really don’t understand. So, what is going on?
I don’t know what the “reasoning” is behind all the bullshit, but as I think I commented elsewhere I’m fed up with it.
As mentioned earlier, some of y’all really do act like a bunch of birds pecking at another bird’s crest just because it happens to be a bit different. The scapegoating and bullying is sickening, and seems to me more becoming of freerepublic or those of similar ilk. One would think “liberals” would be more tolerant. What a fucking laugh.
An excellent look into the origins of the ‘anti-american’ slur can be found in this Harper’s article by Kevin Baker. Providence brought this one to my attention just yesterday.
That Harper’s article is very thorough. Heck, I’ve even blogged about the Dolchstoßlegende over at my own humble blog. It’s been helpful to remind those using that particular rhetorical device that it is one that has its origins in Nazi Germany, and hence more befitting the discourse of despots rather than what we would expect of a “free” society.
Thanks for pointing this out. I’d seen mention of it here and there, but had not read it yet (and still have some to go, I wound up skimming parts… long article!).
It’s interesting to see how the language reprises and adjusts itself to fit whatever the current needs or circumstances are, but is basically the same underneath.
wonderful (and scary) link. Thanks so much.
Fear.
Gut churning, naked fear.
We have become a cowardly nation. Many on the right blame this merely on pop culture, or materialism, or some invading brown horde or another. Many on the left blame our state on greed or some other weakness.
It’s a little bit all of those things, and none. What we are is a people unwilling to learn to understand something we’re not already comfortable with … a people unwilling to take a chance on commitment to ANYTHING and to live w/ the consequences.
Too many of us who claim to be religious fail to make any kind of spiritual journey or examination. They sup at mystical smorgesbords, picking and choosing surface beliefs, or we latch onto some cult of personality that promises easy answers and the illusion of community.
Too many of us who claim to be worldly merely weave to and fro with the winds of fashion. Materialism on its own isn’t good or bad. If you buy really good cookware, because you love to cook and provide sustenance and joy for loved ones, then that can be a good materialism. If you buy the latest All Clad merely because some glossy mag tells you it’s in, and you never ever use it, then it is an anchor around your neck.
Perhaps we never were more than what we are now. Perhaps our memories of earlier Americans who fought for things and believed in things are just comfortable myths we tell ourselves. Who can say for sure?
Well, no one, but the essence of life as a mortal is that there is no certainty beyond the certainties you create for yourself, with will and sweat and commitment. Instead, we’ve lulled ourselves into floating along in some big raft of lies we’ve built, only to discover, as times turn harsh, that the biggest, strongest and most ruthless amongst start shoving their fellow Americans off the raft. We float in the dark, stormy ocean of the twenty-first century, watching the ruthless and predatory float away, kicking frantically at the darkness beneath us, treading water, clinging at any thing or illusion floating by that seems to offer rest. We nervously look about as others are yanked under by the ravenous teeth of sudden illness, or economic collapse, or the vagaries of our increasingly unstable environment.
We live in fear, because deep inside we don’t believe the stories we tell ourselves about who we are. We claim to be a people of law, while celebrating a legal system that elevates corporate persons above natural persons, rendering the law useless as a way to ensure accountability and stability. We claim to be a peaceful Christian nation as we build an arsenal the likes of which history has never seen, an arsenal that can cause destruction that would make the lightning bolts of Zeus look like party favors. We claim to worship life while we look away from the suffering of the poor and darker skinned.
We are cowards, and that is why we turn on each other, as cowards always will. We don’t have the courage to have real debates, honest debates … to make real commitments to have a strong and boisterous public sphere where EVERY point of view gets its time at the podium. We declare issues as being off the table then blanch when those issues fester, damage and kill.
We are cowards who live in fear of races different than our own, even though deep inside we know that all of our blood runs red, and that all of us want our loved ones to be healthy, happy, fed and warm.
Because we never dealt with the crimes committed as this country was formed and grew, we live in fear of ourselves, because we know we only have ourselves to blame.
First I have to get over my awe at being able to write like that in a quick comment, when it would take me tries and tries to even approximate it. Sigh.
Okay, done being awestruck.
Yes, I too think fear is at the base of a lot of it. And fear so often breeds anger, blame and hatred. The problem, it seems to me, is first recognizing the source of the fear (and not that one’s subconscious or another speaker or whatever has thrown up as a scapegoat) and then dealing with it from there. Impossible to do, though, if no one looks or if topics are stifled, villified and/or shuttled off into no man’s land.
wow, thanks.
I think of it almost as a form of channeling, only I’m channeling the person I’d like to imagine I’d be if I got a “Mr Smith Goes to Washington” moment. I have stories and beliefs and hopes that I’ve absorbed through my life, and when I’m lucky they speak through me.
When I was in college, I was involved to a slight extent with some of the “no nukes” activists at my university. There was a meeting once with a ROTC officer, some local industry reps and some politicians. One of them made a derisive comment about how pathetic hippies were, thinking they could solve the world’s problems by putting daisies into gun barrels. I heard a roaring in my ears, the world went kind of a reddish black, and I stood up and made an impassioned speech about how he was wrong. To this day, I have NO idea what I actually said. All I know is that I sat down when I finished feeling dazed, like a loa had “ridden” me in some vodun ceremony, with people clapping me on the back.
It was kinda scary.
I often wish I was more disciplined and focused so I could sustain these wonderful moments of a kind of subconsious clarity, but it is something I’m still working on.
I hope you keep working on it! I think you’re doing quite well so far, lol.
What a marvelous (and for sure a little scary) experience that must have been. I’ve gone through somewhat similar things, and I think probably others do too, but we (or at least I) tend to sometimes not let go and go with them. Also sometimes words get in the way 😉
I think if someone would just invent a brain-to-speech or type gadget (um… that could be turned on and off in an instant, lol) that a lot more channeling from within would go on.
You’re doing fine. Just appreciate it, and allow it to come. The more willing you are to allow it, the more it will come forth.
We all have a “speaker” within that would like to be heard.
Let er rip, MM
Hugs
Shirl
To me anti-American is the same an anti-woman, anti-black, anti-gay.
You say something derogatory about ‘Americans’ and you are going down the path of anti-Americanism.
It depends on how sweeping you intend to be and hold derogatory what you have to say is.
But suggesting that Americans are stupid or lazy or bloodthirsty, or ignorant is really no different than saying the same thing about some ethnic, religious, or gender group.
And occassionally stereotypes are useful, but they are dangerous and can lead easily to abusive language.
If you want to know if a comment is anti-American, just substitute a different word (blacks, gays, Mormons) and see how it sounds to your ears.
I am not sure that I agree with this definition, but that doesn’t matter much as it’s what it means to you (and other users of the term as it relates to others on and off this site) that is what needs illuminating, in my view. And how you define your use of it as apart from the way the right wing has historically used it against dissenters, leftists, etc.
Nanette, part of my frustration is that DuctapeFatwa throws out these incendiary “all Americans are evil” statements and then refuses to debate the basis for his views when somebody challenges him.
I wrote this last week and I’ll write it again: you can BE an anti-American on Booman Tribune. You can also be anti-black, anti-gay, anti-Jewish, or anti-anything you want to be, IF you are willing to debate your views. But DuctapeFatwa answers criticism with sarcasm or non sequiturs, when he deems to answer it at all. And there are others who are now emulating him in this course.
Now, that’s my policy and it may or may not be Booman’s. I doubt Booman would extend his tolerance to anti-Semites or racists on this site.
If somebody wants to argue over the reasons they are anti-American, fine. But when they throw out anti-American opinions, such as the unfounded and wild notion that we would kill millions of babies if an official from the Bush administration ordered us to, and then refuse to answer criticisms of that view…well, I hate to use the “t” word but to me, that is trolling.
I once told Ductape (in so many words) that sometimes his writing reminds me of being in a group of people at a party, where everyone arrives carrying their gifts to put on the table, and suddenly Ductape appears at the door, smiling hugely and dragging behind him a giraffe. Or maybe it’s a camel. No wait, now that it’s closer it looks more like a warthog. Hmmm, that’s not it either, no it’s a sheep. No, I know, I know… it’s a dog – no, a puppy!
By the time he gets close enough to add his offering to the table, those following along the entire time might see a bouquet of roses, thorns and all, or maybe a bucket of mud.
I’m not especially here to defend Ductape, although I do consider him a friend (and yes, an honorary ancestor), and I don’t believe he’s said that all anyone is evil, but as I’ve said before… people can read what he writes and take what interpretation they wish from it. Confront him, tell him he’s wrong, tell him he’s full of it, whatever. That’s the nature of debate.
My concern comes in with the other uses of language, such as anti-Americanism, and its usually attendant nationalism and all that follows from that. Especially when this language is employed as an attempted method of ostracization and marginalization of arguments.
I am most concerned, as I stated above, when it arises out of militarism… and this did, before you were involved in it (I believe) when, in a diary a couple of months ago Ductape refused to love, or even speak to, the US military. I gave one uninformed guess at why that might be the case, but still… since then the rhetoric has gotten more and more rah rah USA and exclusionary, to the point where some non Americans (as well as Americans) have felt most unwelcome here.
I think we need to reaccess both the overall goals and the language used to achieve them.
If one of the “warlords” demanded it, we Americans would willingly slaughter our own children without hesiation, and blood would run in the streets.
Sweet Jesus, that is hateful. Where does that come from if he’s not anti-American?
See, I’m not some country bumpkin who’s never been out of his small town. I live in one of the world’s most cosmpolitan and multicultural cities (here in Kahleefornya…even our GOVERNOR is from another country!). I speak five languages, including English (sort of). I’ve set foot on the soil of over 40 countries, partly due to my own wanderlust and partly thanks to Uncle Sam. I’ve even lived for an extended period of time in two countries whose cultures are very different from the US.
And in all that time–including hoisting beer steins with self-described “radical anarchists” in a bar in Munich–I have NEVER heard anybody say the things about Americans that DuctapeFatwa has written. Were they just being polite? As in, “Ja, I didn’t want to say anything, but you seem slightly less monstrous and bloodthirsty than other Americans….”?
What people in Asia, Latin America, and Europe have said to me is that the American people are often smug (guilty), complacent (guilty), parochial (guilty)–BUT they temper that criticism with “I admire___ about America”. Many of them have said they have enjoyed visits to America, or wish to visit (yes, even the German anarchists, who got kicked out of the local Communist Party for being too left-wing).
People I’ve encountered in my travels have criticized the US government (hell yeah!) but they acknowledge that the vast majority of Americans are not these terrible creatures–and certainly not people who would gladly put a gun to their children’s heads and blow their brains out. Folk in other countries are sophisticated enough to realize that in the US, we HAVE a ruling class who manage this country largely for THEIR benefit, and that the will of we, the people is often manipulated and thwarted by a political and economic system designed as what Noam Chomsky describes as a “spectator democracy”.
And no, DuctapeFatwa was not just being “colorful” when he wrote those words. He had a chance to explain, retract, whatever, and thus far has refused it–which means he stands by what he has written. And that’s my problem with him–not him as a person (don’t know him) but his views and his dishonest refusal to explain or debate those who disagree with his views.
I haven’t spoken to Ductape about this diary, and I am certainly not what I would term a Ductape interpreter, but here was my thought on reading those words…
If I had written this and my goal was to give people a jolt, I might first write:
… fully expecting the reaction I got. Howls of outrage, of denial, of “how DARE you suggest such a thing!”, of “now you’ve gone too far, you doo-doo head!” “we love OUR children!”.
And then I would write the next paragraph:
… in hopes that some connection would be made between them. Was that what he was doing? I don’t know. I think the easiest way to find out is to ask him.
As I said, he can defend (or not) his own words and beliefs. It’s possibly because I know of his love for many Americans (or USA’uns), and some of the culture, his absolutism on human rights, and the rights of all of humanity to be seen as human; his belief in the dignity of each person and the capability of each person of making their own decisions, speaking their own words and being responsible for same, that I can read that interpretation into his words.
Nanette, I hesitate to jump in here (Oh gosh why do I DO this!?) but you seem to have a cordial relationship with DTF that allows you to read his posts with more benevolence than most people would afford him.
As Booman suggested, just substitute Jew or Muslim or homosexual for American and see how it sounds to your ear.
You state that the easiest way to figure out what he meant is to ask him, but, goodness, he’s been asked and his answers are just more of the same hate-filled, sarcastic rhetoric.
I am also not an apologist for DTF or for Nanette either. And I think you do have a bit of a point SN about generalizations. But we start down a slippery slope when we make these kinds of examples. I know that these are the kinds of arguments that are often thrown at women and minorities as well. The reality is that we can’t make moral equivalency arguments when we’re talking about an oppressor class and an oppressed class. Its like accusing blacks or racism or women of sexism. This might be trying to use language in a strained way to make a complex point. But while women or blacks might engage in prejudice, due to the different power relations, it is almost impossible for them to be guilty of racism or sexism.
And I also think you make another really good point. I used to get really mad a DTF. But as I got to know him through lots of reading and interacting, I do see his heart and find the meaning in what he is trying to say. Sometimes I think that one of the reasons this whole thing exploded is because after the flamewar about the posting of the picture, DTF posted less, especially in comments and that distance from him lead to a different reading of his diaries.
I think I’m the opposite from you NL – I used to really like DTF but then I began to wonder which was the real DTF; the one who “showed his heart” or the one who makes hateful blanket statements about entire groups of people. And if one was possibly a setup for the other.
I’ve had to rely on gut instincts a lot in my life and I started to feel manipulated in a big way by DTF. That’s my personal feeling and no one else has to agree.
Second Nature… I suppose I can also do that because while I am “American”, it’s not that close a part of my identity. Or something like that.
In other words, if I were to substitute Jew or Muslim or gay or Catholic or Black or whoever in there, things would take on an entirely different meaning.
However, I could quite easily substitute British, Dutch, or Portuguese and have it have the same meaning to me as American. In fact, I have issues with all of those places and their past (and some present) policies and the supporters of such ;).
In other words, to me, America, the US, whatever you want to call us, is a body of land with a goverment and people who inhabit the land, some of whom may refer to themselves as Americans, or residents, or First People or the military or whatever all makes up “America”. But the land is not me. The people, other than myself, are not me. I am Nanette, who resides on a plot of land commonly referred to as America and thus am able separate rhetoric or polemics about “America” from myself and discuss issues that I have with the plot of land I live on, and at the same time love people who also live on this plot of land with me, even some I don’t agree with. But I am unable to think of ‘America” as myself, or part of an identity such as a religion or ethnicity. This may be a flaw on my part, but if so, it’s one I’ve had all my life.
I can also see how at least some others view my plot of land and the policies my plot of land’s government have implemented on other peoples governments and plots of land. That this has occurred may not be my direct fault, but I see nothing at all threatening in discussing what may have occurred, what I may or may not be able to do to stop it from happening or prevent it from happening again.
I’ll substitute “Muslims” in what DuctapeFatwa wrote and “Jews”. Somebody tell me if it sounds xenophobic/racist.
The Muslim Version
The Jewish Version
Ok, how do you like DuctapeFatwa’s statements now? Still cool with you?
In all honesty MWOC, doing that should not be necessary. It should have been obvious and gone without saying.
And again, it was the reaction to his diary that caused hurt feelings on the other side. That’s why I called for forgiveness on BOTH sides.
Ideally, Ductape should apologize, too. But, short of that, people should respect that different people reacted to different parts of his diary and took different things from it.
Both side have real grievances. Both sides deserve apologies and owe apologies. For my part, I have apologized and do so here, again.
…but I feel that people defending DuctapeFatwa are sure, in their minds, that he did nothing wrong.
And they just don’t get it–even after your very plain statement–that he DID say some things that were VERY wrong.
I don’t care if he apologizes or not (although he never will, let’s face it). If a guy burns down my house, “sorry” doesn’t put my living room back up. I don’t care if it’s a sincere apology or not (and I don’t think DTF is sorry for what he wrote).
I don’t want an apology. I want people to acknowledge that DuctapeFatwa has written things about Americans that, if applied to any other group, would rain fire and brimstone down on his head.
I’m just frustrated that I keep reading statements to the effect of, “Oh, you just don’t understand DuctapeFatwa as we do. If you did, you would understand how wise and insightful he is.” This is not all a “big misunderstanding”…I understand DuctapeFatwa’s words and ideas perfectly. That’s why I have a problem with them!
So that’s why I posted those re-written statements. I feel like I have to hammer this point home because people are refusing to deal with his words. None of the people defending DuctapeFatwa have dealt directly with his words on “You can’t reason with Americans”.
I’m searching this diary for some sign that one of DuctapeFatwa’s supporters or admirers acknowledge that he has said one thing wrong. And I can’t find it. All I find are statements that justify him and say it’s all just a misunderstanding.
Well, that’s all I’ve got. I can’t explain it any more ways than I already have. If somebody doesn’t comprehend why some of us have a problem with DTF’s writings, they never will, and there’s no using beating a dead horse.
MWAC writes: “I want people to acknowledge that DuctapeFatwa has written things about Americans that, if applied to any other group, would rain fire and brimstone down on his head.”
I truly understand that this is what you WANT people here to see and to say. YouR frUstration IS palpable.
What I don’t understand is your apparent beleif that if you hammer at this hard enough, you can actually MAKE OTHERS HERE see and say what YOU want them to!
Please pull back a minute and think about how far anyone would get using this same tactic on YOU! (Like..no where fast, perhaps? 🙂
Any and all viewpoitns about DTF set aside for now,, aside, IMO, you are trying to control something that is not yours to control, MWAC. Namely other peolples thoughts and actions.
This is what I saw before too from others in this overall debate. Serions effrots to CONTROL how others here think and interpret whatever is writtin here.
Not contend with the right to think and interpete however they please, it is taken further, to try to hammer at or shame those who see differently! Or those who refuse to line up besdie you in criticism of someone else.
Never mind if this is right or wrong..it FLAT OUT DOESN’T WORK! We are ALL supposed to have the right to think and say what we choose, arent we?
So, I have to ask you, what diety put the hammer in YOUR hand, MWAC, and gave the right to weild it against anyone else interpretations or opinions, until they light up with yours?
Please think about it, man. What good is served by this?
…what you call “controlling other people’s thoughts” I call “trying to get people to see a different point of view.”
You willfully misrepresent me as someone who attempts to bully others into submitting to my way of thinking.
Nope.
Just like Booman, I am frustrated by the unwillingness of DTF supporters to acknowledge that people who are upset by his anti-American screed have a legitimate grievance. Instead we are told we are making something out of nothing, or that our reading comprehension skills are lacking, or that we just don’t have the depth of mind to grasp DTF’s subtlety and profundity.
You obviously did not read what I wrote. I have specifically said that DTF should not be made to erase nor alter his diary; I have said that if DTF was banned, I would vigorously protest that banning; and I have said that I am not interested in an apology from DTF for calling Americans bloodthirsty child killers (among other things).
What you, my dear Scribe, seem NOT to grasp is that what DTF wrote about Americans is DEEPLY offensive.
What if DTF called black people “niggers” and then other people here, blacks and non-blacks, cried out in protest?
Your response would be that they were trying to “control” what other people think or write? Or would you acknowledge that people who are offended by the use of the word “nigger” to describe them have a legitimate grievance?
Actually, it is DTF’s defenders who are trying to control thought by controlling language. “Anti-American” means nothing; “nationality” is not a legitimate identity; therefore, those who are offended because DTF made anti-American statements (calling us monsters) have no RIGHT to feel offended.
I don’t like being told what I can or cannot think. If I say that being an American is an integral part of my identity, who are YOU, or anybody else, to tell me it is NOT important to my identity? Talk about thought control! You tell me what to feel, what to think, and then accuse me of YOUR behavior? Hah!
DTF has called Americans monsters. I am offended by it. I am frustrated because DTF’s defenders are being dishonest in claiming that they see no offense in what he has written, and in claiming that no reasonable person could take offense at what he has written.
Here’s all I want, one simple statement: “What DTF has written does not bother me. However, I can see why it would bother people who take pride in their nationality to be called monsters.”
DTF has engaged in hate speech against Americans, pure and simple. Once again, I challenge you and anyone else reading this to deconstruct DTF’s statements and tell me how they are NOT hateful. NONE of DTF’s defenders in this diary or elsewhere EVER directly deal with his statements–and I think we both know why.
Denial ain’t just a river in Egypt.
One more time, Scribe, I ask: Look at the statements from DTF. And then explain to me how they are not filled with hatred. Don’t tell me how you are not bothered by them, and how I should not be bothered by them:
I’ll be VERY surprised if you respond DIRECTLY to those quotes. DTF’s defenders NEVER do, because they are indefensible. To defend them is to defend hate speech. If you don’t respond DIRECTLY to those statements and to those words, I’m done with you. Because unless we discuss those words and what they mean, then there is no discussion and everything you write is just an attempt to obscure and dodge the real issue.
DTF can post hate speech here if he wants, and if Booman permits. But let’s be honest and label it for what it is. And you be honest and admit that you are endorsing hate speech against Americans.
That’s what I want, honesty. Truth in packaging, if you will.
OK, I will try my best.
First, I understand that you are responding to DTF’s words from your perspective. If you take offence, then the words are offensive to you. Your opinion is as valid for you as mine is for me.
If I understand correctly, you are angry that DTF suggested that you and people like you would murder your children by government fiat. Looking at it that way, I can understand that you would be upset, because neither you nor the people you know would do such a thing.
When I read those words, I remembered seeing Americans do things that were previously unimaginable to me. I saw fathers bully and disown their sons because they wouldn’t go to Viet Nam. I saw my friends enlist because their families forced them to. I saw a teenager beaten almost to death by his older brother because his hair was too long. Thousands of young people were called “traitors” and “anti-American” for opposing that war. It tore families apart, and the legacy lives on in the people who still hate liberals and hippies and tree huggers, and anybody who isn’t unquestioningly obedient to authority. The father of a friend committed suicide because his son wouldn’t enlist. He left a note blaming the boy, saying he was too ashamed to live. My friend enlisted the next day.
I personally witnessed Americans who proudly sacrificed their children because government spokesmen appeared on the news and beat the drums of war, patriotism, and blind loyalty. And I saw them bully and browbeat the children who dared to question them.
You and I, informed by our life experiences, are bound to react differently. I don’t demand that you feel as I do, and I trust you will extend the same understanding to my perspective.
Please explain to me how being an American is the same as being Jewish or Muslim. I have never in my life equated my nationality with my ethnicity, nor religion if I had one.
I simply do not understand the conflating of the two. No doubt due to some missing gene.
I agree with you on that point, Nanette. Let’s try the word “Canadian” then. Or Syrian. Or Egyptian.
I’ve tried those words, Second Nature, and I imagine that anyone familiar with the various countries could sit right down and write up a polemic about issues with those countries, their governments, the power of the people to change things or their lack of ability/desire/enough who care, to do so, and I really can’t imagine it garnering the same reaction.
They could, mind you. Or they could generate discussion and so on, depending on the wording used and the first reactions in comments (which often seems to set the tone for many of the rest).
Also, as stated before, my concern is not the diary, defending against whoevers interpretations of it, saying they are right or wrong (although I did point out how I viewed one questioned portion of it, when asked) but instead some of the language used, not only to protest that diary but spreading through to other diaries and people.
I am coming to more of an understanding, though, how some people feel their Americanism to be part of their um.. personhood, I guess, like a religion or ethnicity, as has been stated by a few people. Thus, an attack or disagreement with even “some Americans” is seen as a personal attack.
Yes, we could. I could write one right now about the Canadian gov’t. In fact, about to start a postering and letter writing campaign in favour of a non-confidence vote against the Harper minority gov’t.
It’s not criticsm of my country I can’t stand, it’s jingoistic insults, provocation, and misleading statements.
Black people can’t ski
Jew can’t play sports
White people can’t dance
Pollacks can’t screw in a light bulb
And Americans will sacrifice their little Isaacs on the altar at the whim of George Bush.
Why is it that you are resistant to seeing the last of these as offensive?
It’s frustrating.
As a white man I actually do not get upset when I see comedians portray me as an imperialistic, mysogonistic, greedy, golf-playing, bastard. Sure, if the stereotype fits even 15% it doesn’t hurt me.
But why this reluctance to condemn hate language?
Have we lost all protection through our privilege? And when did white Christian men earn the right to take on the monikor of ‘American’?
We didn’t. He insults you and you don’t mind. Well, when someone makes racist and sexist remarks I tend to get pissed off. As I think I should. No reciprocity? Even when you are targeted?
Help me out Nanette. I’m serious.
I went back and read the diary and comments to see what Ductape had replied to others that brought up this point (as obviously my own interpretation of… “shocked you, didn’t i? Well, they love their children, too”) is not one that seems to have any traction.
Only, thing is… no one asked. Far as I can see, no one mentioned that point at all. Odd.
If my interpretation is wrong, and it was just a random accusation that Americans are willing to run out and kill their kids at the drop of a command, then I certainly disagree with that, and while I would probably consider it over the top ranting (possibly akin to some of the other stuff that is mentioned in those comments), I can see how it would also be considered offensive. I do think someone should ask Ductape himself what he meant, though. Maybe someone did on one of the other blogs, I’ll check eventually.
Anyway, again I still don’t agree with Americanism being equated with race, religion etc, but I do sort of get how someone could have a different view.
I missed something somewhere… where did “white Christian men” come into things? I don’t feel insulted, and that is possibly because I put a different (though wrong, it could be, but am not convinced) spin on things, but not because I am not a white Christian man. After all, while some of the others who were/are offended might be white, and might be christian (I don’t know) they are definitely not men. I have lost the thread somewhere and I have no clue what you are talking about now, sigh.
How many calories do you burn up in an exercise in futility? Honestly, I don’t think I “communicated” with anybody who didn’t already agree with me. This whole discussion has been….mind boggling.
Because it’s directed at Americans? Because honestly, if I wrote a diary and wrote the base slanders against any other nationality in the exact same language that was used, I’d be flayed alive for it (so to speak).
I honestly don’t see a difference in interpretation here. I see some people willfully refusing to acknowledge the evidence laid before them because, deep down, they agree with what DuctapeFatwa said in his ‘You can’t reason with Americans’ diary. I’ve witnessed a lot of verbal, logical, and mental gymnastics in this diary, and more contortions than a circus sideshow act. It hasn’t been pretty to watch.
One last time, I directly challenge anybody to tell me how this statement is NOT hateful:
Can ANYBODY look at that statement and tell me it means something other than pure, unreasoning hatred of ALL Americans?
What puzzles me is that I know Nanette read that original diary in question–because she’s one of the commentators on it.
So this entire discussion has really been for nothing, I think. Everybody’s already read the diary, and everybody has already made up their minds.
Actually, this discussion was directed at those who would throw that label around at others because they dont think and feel exactly as you do (like you and Tracy have done all over this site the last couple of weeks). DTF was a side issue that started this whole problem, but was not the focus of the diary or discussion.
You decided once again to make it all about DTF.
So perhaps its you who isn’t paying attention.
Again.
But, Nanette, his attacks weren’t about SOME Americans. Please read them again.
So when a mob of people chant, “Death to America!” I shouldn’t take it personally?
Being an American is an ineradicable part of my identity. I was born here. This is my home. My family, my friends, my job, everything I am or hope to be, is here. Every generation of my family has sent at least one man to serve this country in wartime, and in the case of several of those wars, my family died to defend this country and its way of life.
Being an American to me is just as much a part of my identity as my religion, my race, or my gender. If I left for another country tomorrow, never to see these shores again, I would always be an American. That’s why I’m so damned mad at what’s happened these past six years, because my country has been stolen from me and I want it back.
I agree, let’s substitute a nationality like “Egyptian” or “Mexican” in one of those statements and see how it reads.
Nanette, you ask us to try to “understand” DuctapeFatwa. How about trying to understand those of us who are proud of our nationality and consider it an integral part of our identity?
I’ve actually not, to my recall, asked you to try and “understand” Ductape Fatwa, although I have presented, in part, my understanding of him and some of his words.
As for the rest, yes I am seeing and finding interesting the various people equating Americanism with their identity in the same fashion as religion and race… so that it makes sense to them (and you) to attempt to make an example of Ductape’s words by substituting those things.. race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, etc, instead of the name of another country.
Mind you, while I am coming to some understanding of this sort of thing, I don’t think it’s a fair equation or trade, but I can (sort of) see how some would.
Answer the question, please.
When people chant “Death to America!” or “Kill all the Americans!”, should I take it personally or shrug it off?
I don’t need a complicated answer. A simple “yes” or “no” would do me fine.
Yes, I should take it personally.
No, I shouldn’t let it bother me.
And the answer is?
Never a direct answer to a direct question.
The answers are always silence, or some vague philosophical rambling, a change of subject.
But never ever a direct answer.
Like Booman, I have to wonder why not?
You and I are Americans. When someone insults Americans, they insult us equally. When someone pre-judges me because I am American, they commit the exact same offense as when the pre-judge you as a women or an Afro-American. It doesn’t really matter how you self-identify. Maybe you don’t self-identify as an American, but an attack on Americans hits you as square as it hits me.
It’s still stereotyping, it’s still hurtful, it’s no better than racism or sexism even if it doesn’t deliver the same sting, for you.
Booman read the diary again. She never says anti americanS she says anti ameriCAN. Burning the flag is anti american. How does this statement make me a racist????
I had to read the diary again and she is not refering to people, or a group of people.
“It depends on how sweeping you intend to be and hold derogatory what you have to say is.”
Most people who assert derogatory views don’t hold their views as consciously derogatory. They don’t have the “sweeping” big picture. They treasure their [what others perceive as] derogatory views as a legitimite form of personal expression that’s makes them more special than those who they derogate.
I’m sorry… it looks like you are replying to me, but it’s difficult to tell in this long thread.
In the event that you are, could you um… clarify 😉 what you are replying to? I don’t recognize the quote and I am not entirely sure what you are referring to, so I am not sure how to answer.
It was a quote from Booman. Looks like I have gotten superdiscoordinate here! That’s what I get for trying to participate when I am basically too stressed and tired.
Ah, oh well. I have replied anyway, since it appeared again!
“It depends on how sweeping you intend to be and hold derogatory what you have to say is.”
Most people who assert derogatory views don’t hold their views as (consciously or conspicuously) derogatory. They don’t have the “sweeping” big picture. They treasure their [what others perceive as] derogatory views as a legitimite form of personal expression that’s makes them more special than those whom they derogate.
We all know what duct tape is and its supremely sick role in criminal victimization.
And heere’s what fatwa means according to wikipedia.
Not sure, but I feel like I might be getting thrown a Curveball.
Looks like I posted this twice, though I’m totally not sure how that happened.
Well, I guess you ARE sort of replying to me. I think. I still don’t know who you are quoting, but I guess that’s okay.
Anyway, the “Ductape Fatwa” name, from what I understand from past conversations when people actually … you know, asked him, came about as a humorous take on Tom Ridge’s Homeland security “fatwa” that people should by ductape and plastic to protect themselves from attack. Ductape… and Fatwa. Oooohhh, scary.
Of course, one is welcome (without inquiring) to place any meaning on the name that fits one preconceptions, such is the nature of life.
The actual intent of this article, which somehow became about Ductape, and that is understandable, was my objection to the use of rhetoric (usually used by the right wing) to demonize opponents, based on what I consider the evils of nationalism and militarism… which historically have moved right along the same lines into xenophobia, racism and paranoia. Time, after time, group or person after group or person.
If the fallout from all this just had been on Ductape, that would have been bad enough and something to vigorously oppose… but rhetoric and the feelings engendered are never satisfied with just one. It grows and spreads itself to cover others, in this case anti war activists, other non Americans, human rights activists and others who apparently have the temerity to be in opposition to the views of some.
It’s bad stuff, it never fails and I think it has no place anywhere or in use by anyone, but especially those that consider themselves progressive/liberal, whatever.
So, thanks for implying … whatever you are implying, which has allowed me to state my point more clearly.
I gotta say: I have yet to see anyone really answer MWOC’s main line of attack on Ductape’s diary, which he did a poor job, IMO, of arguing. But it comes down to certain totally indefensible quotes, including the idea that American would gladly kill their children if Bush advised it.
How on Earth you could criticize someone for disagreeing, arguing against, and being offended by that is simply beyond me.
If I said black people are so brainwashed that they would kill their children in Michael Jordon told them to, what would you say? It wouldn’t be any better if I swapped out black for Congolese, or Zulu.
It’s a factually inaccurate, stupid, and deliberately offensive remark and people were correct to call him on it.
How this got beyond that into this big flair up is about people copping attitudes and taking up sides.
At base, Ductape wrote a really, really, really bad diary that was pathetic at points.
I mostly love ductape, but every now and again he lays a giant cow pie.
I think some of the reaction to ductape was over the top. I just mocked him and left it at that.
Well, I attempted my interpretation of parts of Ductape’s diary in a comment somewhere around here, but as I stated earlier, Ductape, his words and writings (which he can defend or not, on the merits or not, I’ve not said anything otherwise here or elsewhere) are not the point. Or, not my point, anyway.
The point is the right wing rhetoric and demonization that has been running rampant here for months, really, and just really blew up as a big thing as a result of that diary. Agree, disagree, rant, write a counter diary, troll rate, do whatever people always do, but I will object when it’s done within the context and frame of nationalism and xenophobia and beyond because, in my opinion, that has no place in conversation.
No. Or, not exactly… how this got beyond that is due to the “rah rah rah, USA! USA!” and the pro military, anti anyone who is not pro military, not pro American Exceptionalism stuff, and the transference of the use of the “anti-American” label to attempt to stifle dissent from peace activists and others.
Ductape’s diary had a part in it, and whether one loved it or hated it is neither here nor there. He is not to blame for anyone else’s words or actions, however, and how they choose to interact with people who didn’t agree with him.
I am not exactly sure why my main point is basically being dismissed, but it’s possible that others don’t view this sort of right wing rhetoric with the distaste that I do, although why I can’t imagine, considering the lovely results it has brought about in the past. Milage varies and all that, though.
Rah rah USA? You’re serious? Here? Is there the slightest possibility that you’re mistaking people defending themselves against brutal accusations as blind patriotism?
No.
At least, that wouldn’t be my impression from some of the speech, including the exhortations to essentially ‘go back where you came from’ and so on.
Or the speech used in attacks on the peace activist types. I can go back and find quotes, although probably not tonight. And I am not speaking just of recent events, but of a sort of building undercurrent (or sometimes over) that I think needs to be addressed, in my opinion.
Again, I have no problem with disagreement, with debate, with dislike. I do have a problem with some of the rhetoric, and that is why I am pointing it out.
And I have a problem with some of the rhetoric, too, and am likewise pointing it out.
As for the ‘go back where you came from’ comment I believe it was only one poster who was very offended and frustrated. It certainly is not an undercurrent running throughout BT.
Yes, actually.
In fact, I believe I was subject to it as well as some other general taunting about Canadians and seal clubbing.
I hope you didn’t take it personally, like, say if someone accused you of being willing to kill your own child for your leader.
If you could find one comment where I said that then you might have an argument.
Nope, not looking for an argument. Just some understanding of how hurtful generalizations based on where one lives can be.
And I never ever said that I didn’t understand where MT was coming from. I actually tried to find common ground by saying I approved of a military, but that its goal should be peacekeeping vs. warmaking. And then I was attacked. The very generalizations you speak of were directed right at me, and you continue to mischaracterize my position. That isn’t fair.
spidey-
second nature never said anything about baby seals and she never told you not to be offended by it.
She never approved of anyone saying it either.
I don’t know who said it, but it seems to me that the site has been characterized by the comments of a few people that lost their temper. Two people on one side do not define the site, nor do three people on the other side.
I get these emails about “so-and-so said this and your site has become y.”
It’s frustrating.
Tempers flared but I don’t see “the site” as having done anything.
Like I have been saying, we should treat this as an ugly Thanksgiving. There’s not reason to cancel Christmas.
I know that Boo, I was just responding to the question of there being no “rah, rah” comments on the site. So I corrected that.
I dont want to fight Boo, I just don’t want to be lumped into some “anti-American”, “anti-troop”, “part of a Ductape cult”, bullshit grouping. That’s not right, nor is it fair. I mean, I’m probably the first one to post an rant about DTF on this site back in the day. And at no time have I ever said I agree with everything the guy says, but he ain’t the devil, or worth all this venom directed all over the place either.
Anyway, I’m here, and I’m willing to talk. Just not to be misrepresented or mischaracterized.
Thanks for your words on the OT and my site btw, I appreciate it.
how they choose to interact with people who didn’t agree with him.
That should read, “how they choose to react to people who didn’t agree with them.
Nanette, you know I have the utmost respect for you, but I really disagree with you here.
I don’t know where you are seeing xenophobia here. If anything, the presumed and false accusation of xenophobia against Susan resulted in a sustained attack on her (which, btw, contrary to popular opinion had nothing to do with her quitting).
My defense of American Exceptionalism is nuanced and I use the term in a different way that it normally is used. No one that I noticed was abusive to people that disagreed with me.
While I did not agree with Sally and Tracy’s reaction and behavior at all times, they are only two people, and they both quit the site in reaction to their treatment. Tracy has come back. In fact, I received GBCW emails from over a half dozen people on both sides of this fight. All but 3 of them have agreed to come back.
People treated each other shabbily on both sides.
But anti-Americanism is a perfectly reasonable description of Ductape’s diary. It can’t be interpreted honestly in any other way without painful parsing. Had it been directed at Jews, blacks, Gays, Arabs, or the French it would aroused a mass call for banning.
American, whites, men, and for the most part Christians are indeed privileged. But along with that comes a tolerance for stereotyping them that is never acceptable among other groups.
Ductape crossed the line pretty severely, in my opinion, and was, on the whole, given a pass.
That doesn’t mean that his opponents draped themselves in glory.
And I have told them as much both publicly and privately.
That is how I feel. You can’t tell me that Americans would happily kill their children and expect me not to be offended and to not say it is an anti-American thing to say. It is obviously anti-American, and it doesn’t matter if that term has been abused by the right. Sometimes it is just plain true.
BooMan, and you know I have the greatest respect for your willingness to listen and engage, even in disagreement. However!
I’m glad that last was stated right out, because in my view, this was the beginning of it. I disagree with the term “sustained attack”, although it no doubt seemed like that to her and others, when it was actually (in most cases) a sustained attempt to get her (and others) to understand what some found so offensive about that cartoon and text. I think that effort was pretty much unsuccessful, but oh well.
As for seeing xenophobia, I probably shouldn’t have used the term “rampant”. Yet. But it starts off just little.. a comment here, a comment there, pretty much unopposed. Then others join in with a comment here, and a comment there, and pretty soon it’s accepted that this type of person is the sort one can make such comments to and about with impunity. Then it spreads from there.
My experience is of course not the be all that ends all, but I do have experience with this sort of thing in different settings, and it worries me.
I noticed how you used it (and disagreed with it) but while there may not have been abuse towards people who disagreed with you within that diary (I haven’t checked), the basis of it was used to disagree with others on other parts of the site. Which is the responsibility only of those who did that, of course, not your diary itself.
I don’t quite agree with this, but I didn’t follow everything, thank goodness, so I may have missed any number of things.
I still don’t understand the equating of being American with ethnicity or race or sexual orientation or gender or religion. If someone wrote a diary, however, about the French and their refusal to deal with their poor and slums, and that steps weren’t taken to protect the elderly so many died in heatwaves, or that this or that of French government actions and French citizen’s inactions, I really doubt they would have been banned. Depending on how it was written and the points made, etc. And, no doubt people could and would say it was an “anti-French” diary.
This isn’t a majority French site though, and while I am not certain, I don’t believe “anti-French” has the same history and connotations as “anti-American”. Which is, again, my point… not that people disagreed with the diary, or were offended by it. But the use of words and terms that have a long history in the US, and not usually a pleasant one, even if the meaning and intent (which were, as far as I recall, unexplained) was different. Added on top of all the (little, but growing) prior stuff. I can’t even read the diary anymore because the margins are broken, but again the specifics of it are for Ductape to address.
You are welcome to your feeling, and disagreement, disgust, whatever.. that is not something I’ve attempted to deny anyone, to my knowledge. I did make an attempt to point out my reading of that portion to MWOC, but that was just my interpretation and for further clarity I think Ductape should be asked.
I think language matters, though of course interpretation is often individual, whether used by Ductape or others. And I think the language of “anti-Americanism” (and of possibly not your interpretion) hit a vein and just sort of started running.
Nanette, I’m not sure if you are just deliberately refusing to understand or just do not understand. I’m going to try ONE MORE TIME.
Here’s your example:
DuctapeFatwa did not criticize the American government for a particular policy. If he did, no problem!
He said that the American people would, if one of our “warlords” appeared on CNN and commanded it, slaughter our children without hesitation by the millions and the blood of little infants would run in the streets.
And you equate THAT with criticizing government policy?
If you really think those two things are equivalent, then we have nothing to discuss. Nothing.
Is he the only poster on this site suddenly? Is he appearing on CNN or running for office? Why is everything always about him?
In fact, I seem to recall you throwing around labels of anti-Americanism against quite a few people who were not DTF.
Isn’t it time to stop?
I still think you have plenty to discuss, but in this particular case I have to agree. If people cannot face up to just how offensive that diary was, then it is hard to advance the conversation.
Nanette, correct me if I’m wrong, but this diary was not about how offensive or not, Ductape’s diary was and if objection to it was warranted, but to flinging insults such as “anti-American” against any and all who would disagree with a certain aspect of policy, or the military, etc. day after day.
If that is indeed the case, I dont think discussing Ductapes diary is all that pertinent to this posting, as I believe Nanette mentions up or down thread here. The conversation has been derailed, again, to be all about Ductape. Therefore, the real conversation cannot actually begin.
While I am not surprised that some of the focus is on Ductape, I think my actual points are definitely getting buried in the shuffle.
Nanette, would you mind linking me to the diary in question by DTF, I have decided I must read it again since this has gone on so long and folks are so divided over it.
http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2006/7/5/145812/8345
Here it is. Link
Lot of comments, so the margins are broken.
My example is not false. One could certainly use equivalent terms and words regarding the French and the various issues I mentioned.
My intent was not to write an example diary within a comment, but to explain that attacking countries was different from attacking people’s personhood. This was before my recent understanding of Americanism = their personhood for some.
Of course, in the US, considering that supposedly Americans ARE their government, the ‘attacking the government’ thing might well present further difficulties.
Fine with me if we have nothing more to discuss, though. My eyes hurt.
do all women share a common characteristic that can be generalized and disparaged? Maybe so.
But, if so, doing the same to Americans suffers from the same pitfalls. If you are having difficulty relating to people that respond to disparinging remarks about Americans as if they were meant to apply to them then you should try to apply a test.
When someone says something about women or about blacks that is disparaging, how do you feel about it?
Ductape made statements that were meant to apply equally to you and to me. If you refuse to see that it was meant for you every bit as much as for me, then it doesn’t change his intent.
If someone says all women are weak, needy, and sub-intelligent, it won’t do to say, ‘well, he obviously wasn’t including me in that stereotype’.
He did mean to include you. It’s just that, for some reason, you chose to pretend otherwise.
I do not intend to kill my child at the instruction of George W. Bush. The suggestion that I would do that is deeply insulting the momeny I begin to take it seriously.
I didn’t take it seriously because I thought DTF’s diary was a really bad, poorly thought out and probably alcohol induced. But if I ever ever ever ever said anything like that about a nationality, ehhnicity, religion, or sexual preference that wasn’t white, male, Christian, American, and heterosexual, 99% of this community would bolt… With good reason.
In rereading the diary, I think some portions apply to all Americans, and some do not. Or, at least, it can be viewed that way because some statements do not have the ‘other than, except for’ qualifiers.
I am not exactly having difficulty with that.. the people who respond to remarks about Americans as if it may mean them, and so on (although I still find the religion/race/americanism thing odd).
Of course disparaging comments about women or blacks would be offensive, but I still view that differently from speaking about the actions (or inactions) of Americans in general. And I do think it meant me as well as you, as well as anyone, in the general “americans” sense, although we probably disagree on intent and especially the intent when applied to you or me or others. Even in the original diary this was acknowledged (in the comments and by some commenters) from what I can see, myself included. It’s just that some took away something different from the application to themselves than others did.
I think we, as Americans, are culpable in many things our country has done, through action and inaction, and I don’t see where a pointing out of that, or an acknowledgement of that is threatening. At least, it doesn’t threaten me or my sense of self, human rights goals or anything like that.
I think it might be instructive to read the comments again and the different reactions of those who came to the conclusion, in one way or another, that “this means me too”.
Yes, well, I am not at all sure you were supposed to take it seriously, at least not as that. Again tho, I have no interpretation of that but my own.
As for the last, it wasn’t one of his better efforts, although it certainly has produced a monumental reaction. I for sure wouldn’t suggest you write anything like it, but then again, Ductape is not the owner of the site, nor does he set the tone or the direction (at least in theory, lol).
It’s interesting going back to that diary and watching the progress of the comments, the points made, the issues brought out (and not brought out) and the progression of the anger (which seemed to be, at first, minimal, as people were discussing all sorts of things related to what the diary said and disagreements and such).
So I guess a difference, for me… remarks, disparaging or otherwise, targeted at my being black or being a woman I take personally because they are for whatever reason targeted at some unchangeable part of myself, and unless they are directly made personal to me “Nanette, you as result of being a black person are this or that”, then they are pretty much a target of some group identity that may or may not relate to me, but which group I am an identifiably an unchangeable(mostly) part of regardless.
Remarks targeted towards me, as an American, I view as targeted towards something I can change… not changing being an American (although that is an option as well) but working to change the government, the policies, the culture, the views of the lives of children and people other than Americans as not as important, and so on.
This all may not have made much sense (although I know what I am saying ;), but that sort of encapsulates my view.
I took the liberty of highlighting what I thought was especially salient. You’ve boiled it down to the essence.
Another difference is that stereotypes and insults that are based on race, gender, and sexual preference serve to perpetuate a culture of discrimination and an imbalance of power. One can hardly argue that Americans (as a group) are discriminated against in the United States. Therefore, even the most rabidly offensive anti-American insult cannot have the discriminatory impact of race-baiting, sexual slurs, or gay-bashing.
One word from Osama bin Laden and they’ll murder their babies without hesitation. Blood will run in the streets.
Still ok? Jesus!
I didn’t say that any form of insult is “OK.” I said that not all forms of insult are equivalent. If I call you an asshole, that doesn’t have any effect on the balance of power between us. If you’re a member of a minority and I insult you using a racial slur, that insult carries the baggage of an unequal society.
Some of us don’t view “Americanism” as something that’s an essential part of our being. If one views being “American” as merely a consequence of imaginary lines drawn on a map, then an insult directed at one’s “American-ness” seems rather absurd.
If all insults based on generalizations are equally horrible, then where’s the outrage when someone blanket-bashes Republicans?
Booman, mark me down as DEEPLY troubled by this diary and by the refusal of certain commentators to acknowledge that there was any offensive content in DuctapeFatwa’s infamous “You Can’t Reason With Americans” diary.
It’s not only frustrating, quite frankly, it’s shocking. In the absence of a direct answer–all we get are evasions or stony silence–I have drawn my own conclusions as to the true motives of those who refuse to deal with DTF’s hate speech, and the conclusions I have drawn are not kind.
Accurate, I’m afraid, but most definitely not kind.
Give it a rest, please.
I have been trying to make peace all day and this is about the last thing I need being reopened.
This is how I see it.
One camp wants and deserves an acknowledgment that people said things in an intolerant and nasty way, and generally behaved like pricks.
The other camp wants and deserves an acknowledgment that Ductape’s diary contained inexcusable language about Americans that would never be tolerated if leveled at any other proper noun.
Put down your bic lighters and acknowledge your own faults and the other camp’s legitimate grievances, apologize, and let’s be done with it.
I am sorry that I was slow to realize what was happening here and for any bad judgment I used. I’ve tried to moderate this as best I can.
But please don’t fan the flames anymore.
See above–I “rewrote” DuctapeFatwa’s most outrageous statement, the one about us Americans killing our children on command, substituting the words “Muslim” and “Jew”.
If that isn’t the definitive argument, then I don’t know what is.
As a sixty year old, I interpreted the observation that Americans will kill their own children for the government in a very different way than you do.
I remember my friends who were drafted into the Viet Nam war. Families were ripped apart over draft resistance, because some parents were not only proud, but desperate to send their sons to die. This is not hyperbole. Young men were disowned and kicked out of their homes because their parents were shamed and outraged that the partriotism of the family was being desecrated. Simply having long hair was enough to be branded as the enemy. The father of one of my friends killed himself because he could not force his son (whose number had not yet come up) to enlist. I saw case after case of raw, viseral hatred for 17 and 18 year olds who balked at becoming cannon fodder, coming from their brothers, fathers, and uncles whose identity as red blooded Americans was more important than those young men’s lives. I watched the sacrifice of our youth on the altar of “America Is The Greatest Country In The World”, because their families would do anything to avoid objective reality.
Those of us who were politically active in the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s have seen rah-rah patriotism up close, and it scares the hell out of us. We have seen hideous government policies justified by American exceptionalism, and watched criticism of those policies squelched by accusations of anti-Americanism.
To whom may I object ?
Is it anti-american to criticise government policy,
Americans who adore Bush,
Americans who voted for him twice,
Americans who tell me, “My country, right or wrong, love it or leave it!”,
Americans who can’t be bothered to vote,
Americans who are uncomfortable with this administration, but who do nothing to oppose it, Americans who accept no responsibility for the way our tax dollars are spent,
Americans who don’t question the way their country wields the greatest military and economic power in the world ?
What behavior can I question without being “anti-American”?
Oh Susan, some of us remember it so well and so clearly. You stated it perfectly. Thank you.
Hugs
Shirl
Remember the counter demonstrations where the parents of dead soldiers would stand up and announce how glad they were that their sons died for America, because it was better to be the parent of a dead patriot than a live, disgusting hippie ?
A lot of the Flower Children didn’t voluntarily drop out; plenty were kicked out by “Better Dead Than Red” families who demanded their sons join the military or leave home.
Yep, I remember it. Parents actually wishing their sons dead if they wouldn’t serve in the Military. That kind of nationalism is beyond my comprehension as it was then.
Hugs
Shirl
SusanW, again your words agree with what my heart says. Thank you!!!
Damn, I’m copying your words once again. 🙂
IMHO.
DTF has been the major progenitor of hate speech on this website, notwithstanding the cutely obscure references embedded in his or her screen name. I don’t understand why this is tolerated, why it gets so much attention, and why this person’s diaries always get promoted onto the recommended list.
I am about as tolerant and liberal as you can get, but IMHO.
IMHO.
This person contributes nothing to civilized discourse about our current political dilemma. Does nothing but engender distractions, controversy, and disruption.
I was quoting Booman.
Here’s the person I consider the leading anti-American on this site: DuctapeFatwa.
I’ve not called for him to be banned, nor would I ever. Somebody accused me of wanting him banned. Even if I had the power to demand such a request and have it granted, I would never make it. I don’t believe in silencing people you don’t agree with.
I do believe in calling an ace an ace and a spade a spade. If somebody is anti-American, then I tell them so, straight up, no punches pulled.
I also believe in intelligent criticism. Criticizing the military? It depends…which members of the military? The ones who are doing their jobs without raping or torturing Iraqis, or the ones who commit those terrible crimes? You see, I can distinguish between the two.
I can also distinguish between “good” and “bad” Americans.
DuctapeFatwa cannot. These are statements from just ONE of his diaries (“You can’t reason with Americans”):
So…we torture our children by remote control, we are a “large population of mental patients”, and we would willingly slaughter our children until we were knee-deep in blood if one of the Bush administration officials ordered it?
If that’s not demonizing Americans, then I don’t know what would qualify, Nanette.
I have been accused of bullying people by labeling them anti-American. For the record, I am a military combat veteran who marched AGAINST the invasion of Iraq. Unlike some people, I am not just anti-THIS war but anti- ALL war, because I’ve SEEN what war is like. The American-led coalition SLAUGHTERED the Iraqi conscripts in Gulf War I. Some of those “soldiers” were 14-year-old boys who had a rifle slapped in their hands and who cowered in a foxhole until a bomb blew them to bits. Why do you think I left the military, for Christ’s sake?
Sure, there are Americans who call Arabs “rag heads” and even worse racist terms than that. You know the ones–“nuke ’em all and take their oil.” But DuctapeFatwa is saying that except for a tiny handful, we are ALL like that. He called our troops a “horde of sexual predators”. Now, how do you think that makes Tracy feel, with her husband and friends IN the military? How do you think that makes me feel, with close friends, a nephew, and several cousins IN Iraq and Afghanistan? My relatives have done their duty as honorably as they could in a dirty and dishonorable war.
Should we shut up about America’s problems? Its class inequities, its corrupt political system, its racism, the imperialistic foreign policy our governments have followed since World War Two? Not if we love this country.
But when I criticize my country out of love, because I want–no, I DEMAND–that it be a better place, that it live up to its ideals, I can distinguish between people who are genuinely decent (which is most Americans) and those who have fully bought into the racist, homophobic, imperialistic agenda that Bush and his crowd represent.
One more thing: I disagree with Booman on “American exceptionalism”. The only thing “exceptional” about our nation is that we have historically unprecedented power, but if we squander it on evil misadventures like threatening Iran and invading Iraq, then history is going to deal us a reality check. I want our nation to use its power for good, not evil–but at the heart of that is my belief that the American people will do good if we ask them to. Calling people monsters who would willingly shoot their first-born children is the view of somebody who has a deep and irremedial hatred for the American people in his heart, and I will not hesitate to call such people by their true name: anti-American.
in my opinion, you just made your case very well, but using anti-American taunts in prior posts obscured your case.
Using the anti-American thing as shorthand has two problems. First, it is a bit like calling someone a communist and refusing to debate them beyond that. Second, DuctapeFatwa has written a wealth of stuff, much of it valuable, and to dismiss everything he does because of his ‘anti-Americanism’ lacks nuance.
He didn’t get friends and defenders by writing nothing but diatribes against Americans. I understand why his words were offensive and why you have been mobilized to argue forcefully against his ideas. I also understand why your position has upset a lot of people that see a lot more to Ductape than you do because they have a longer association with him.
In short, personal attacks are frowned upon here even in response to personal attacks.
I’m haven’t done the best job of moderating this debate, mainly because I wasn’t engaged enough, but also because it pitted friends against friends and I didn’t want to take sides.
Yeah, and I know I’m not one of your friends.
You’re right. Throwing out those one-line snarks was unhelpful, counterproductive, and anything else you want to call it. I can see now that I was wrong, because people like Nanette and DamnitJanet think those remarks were directed at THEM. Both Nanette and Janet are clearly able to distinguish between people who really are murderous and bloodthirsty and those of us who are not. I don’t agree with Janet that the troops should refuse all orders in Iraq (just those that are clearly illegal), but that doesn’t make her anti-American, it just means that we have a different definition of what orders are “legal” and “illegal” and what the duty of the troops is regarding those orders. On that, reasonable minds can honestly disagree.
I hope you can understand my frustration at a group of people, led by one person in particular, who claim outrageous things about Americans and then simply refuse to debate. You cannot just say that Americans would torture and slaughter their own children and then walk away from the debate. That’s like walking up to somebody in a bar and saying, “Hey, people tell me your daughter’s a whore. But don’t get mad at me! That’s just what some other people told me! Well, see ya later!”
You fiesty boy……calm, breathe, I happen to know that Booman thinks you write good stuff so stop. Perhaps you haven’t been around as long as some of us have but believe me….he respects you and he respects your views. He is your friend dude, it is just that some of us who were in the middle of the brawl were old friends as far as blog age goes.
and even though I have no respect for him others do now. You have pointed out some critical things that we all need to look at, now sit back and relax and let the issues and lessons sink in and if you feel angry about some of the past things I’ll meet you over at that scotchtape place and you can go for it and I’ll listen……I agree with you. Hang in there, you have a precious voice of reason and rationality……hang in there guy. Let’s get some progressives elected around here and get our boys and girls in uniform home! This is a good place to do that!
and in real life.
I’m a drinking man. I’d hoist one with Booman any time (drink him under the table too). I just meant that I haven’t been here that long and we really don’t know anythingn about each other–whereas the people he’s talking about (we know who they are) have been around here for awhile and contributed a great deal more to this site than I have. Plus some of you have met Booman in person for anti-war protests and things like that and even been invited into his home.
Drink Booman under the table? I’d like to see you try…
Those are drinking words, lass.
I’ve drunk with Marines…with sailors…with Jimmy Buffett….
All I can say is, bring along some lads who are stout of arm to carry Booman home.
the last time I lost such a challenge I was carried home. But I have no fear. Chris Bowers and Chris Baldwin are fearsome, but they bow before me.
You know I’m a big fan but am confused as to why you would defend someone who initiates personal attacks and then condemn those who get personal in defense of themselves.
MWOC – What if I “read” DTF differently than you? What if I read the whole diary and get a different message, something that makes me think and look at my world again and reassess? I can consider that “scutch” to examine valuable.
So, in your eyes, do I also become “anti-American?”
What if I say to you, “I don’t find DTF anti-American. And I want to read the discussions that his threads initiate cause there is some of the best thinking by so many.
And so, I ask you MWOC, as respectfully as I can, if you don’t find DTF’s writing valuable, could you avoid posting in them. I find your comments in DTF’s diaries a distraction that don’t contribute much.”
Now what do we do? Call each other names? Give each other low ratings? Avoid each other in future diaries? Move to different blogs? Seek others for support?
What is the way of peace?
Nope, can’t agree not to post in somebody’s diary.
But Booman’s right, tossing off a label like “anti-American” without explaining it is NOT helpful at all. I think the numerical ratings sytem is dumb, sorry, and I usually give out 4’s or nothing.
If you want DTF’s diaries to be echo chambers where everybody agrees with him, then no, I’m not with that program, tampopo. Yes, I’ve accused him of bobbing and weaving and juggling kittens–because he has been very evasive to the point of obtuseness in refusing to debate what underlies his anti-Americanism.
You can be anti-American if you want. I support the ACLU and they’re always helping out some group I don’t like (like the right of Nazis to march in Skokie, Illinois…I can’t believe I helped pay for THAT legal defense long ago) because if I don’t support free speech for DuctapeFatwa, I don’t support it for me, either, nor for anybody else.
But yes, I will try to debate DTF and if he refuses, I will point out that he is being evasive and question why.
I don’t think DTF will ever “debate” you – that’s just not his style of communication. Its tends to be the style of people who are comfortable with linear thinking. Its like asking him to play basketball when he prefers soccer. I think of DTF as someone like Socrates…asking probing questions trying to get people to think a little deeper…and and in a way that makes us ask the really difficult questions.
I’m sorry but this comes awfully close to Ductape Fatwa as prophet. It’s creepy. No disrespect to you intended.
Please say more – I’m just trying to explain my particular experience. I have been challenged by DTF, but I certainly don’t consider him a prophet. There are lots of people I’ve interacted here that have inspired me as well. I just don’t think a linear style of logical debate points is always the way to get to the truth for me – or perhaps for others.
His “debate” style is hit and run ballistic missiles, and those of us who take offense are just not intelligent enough to “get” it.
and those of us who take offense are just not intelligent enough to “get” it.
I’m sorry if you took my comment to say that. I specifically used the analogy with MWAC using soccer and basketball hoping not to denigrate either style. We just need to know what “game” we’re playing. If we’re expecting debate – lets all know that. But I don’t think that’s the only way to get to the truth. And just because someone like me or anyone else doesn’t choose to communicate in that matter does not denigrate our communcation.
To be totally honest, I actually get uncomfortable when discussions get into the linear debate model and then people talk about who “won.” But I also know that its just not my style, so I don’t need to be critical.
It wasn’t your comment – it’s the attitude of those who seem to idolize DTF. The rest of us just don’t get him because we’re not deep enough thinkers.
I’m sorry, but I think this feeling might possibly be a fallout factor not only of all the conflict that has been going on for months around Ductape, but also, well… I don’t know. Maybe all the talk and (what I view as) misconceptions around it. There are many times I don’t get what he is saying… I’ll be sure I have, and then along comes someone else who says “oh, you’re saying this and this!”, which is not at all what I was thinking, but which he will agree with… ‘yes, you got it!’.
Actually, the same thing sometimes happens to me with Arthur Gilroy diaries. Anyway, I am not sure where the “if you don’t get it, you’re not a deep thinker’ bit has come from, but if that is the case, I must join the club!
I don’t idolize Ductape. I quite like him and I think he writes beautifully, but I also think madman in the marketplace does too. I find myself mostly in agreement with what both of them write, although sometimes not, but I wouldn’t say I idolize either one.
I also love the writing and the points made by people who don’t have that gift of a perfect turn of phrase, or painting pictures with their words, but who have passion and heart and caring and are writing bluntly and forcefully about something they care about.
I don’t know… I know everyone won’t get along and things will be misinterpreted (one way or another) but I still a tiny bit hopeful that much of this can be talked out and gotten past.
Well, I feel the same way SN in the “debate” conversations sometimes – like I don’t get it – but I usually just move on and try to get to the parts where I do. I also don’t think I’ve seen anyone who “idolizes” DTF – nor do I think that those who appreciate his writing think of him or ourselves as “deep thinkers.” Its just a style, much like the debating style.
I think you’re just not checking out the same websites I do. They idolize him.
I guess I was referring to “us” here at BT. I can’t speak for every website and how people feel about him, but I’ve visited a lot of sites where BT members who have left are hanging out – and I don’t see him idolized.
What I do see is people needing to rally round him because they have a relationship with him and he’s under pretty heavy attack. I see it as the kind of things friends do for each other – not idolizing. And if you doubt the attack, maybe you don’t know that someone has even gone so far as to set up a foul-named web site specifically for the purpose of attacking him. If that were your friend, I’m sure you would defend him too. I don’t see any more than that.
I don’t see him as being under attack here at BT. I think people are defensive about being attacked by him and are maybe counterattacking. It all sounds very tactical. 🙂 And as far as friends, it’s really difficult to know until you’ve met someone in real life. You could be anyone. It’s best to be careful – but I’m sure you know that.
Peace. And out.
Sounds like you may be gone SN, but thanks for the respectful conversation about this. It feels good to be able to talk and even if we don’t agree – put our thoughts out in a respectful way. I appreciate it.
But I just have to add that I can’t help thinking about the parallels between the troubles here at BT and those in the middle east (although at least we’re just using words). Each side sees the other side as starting it and therefore justifying our latest action.
So, how do we get out of that trap? Its hard for me because I see a different starting point than you do.
Thanks, NL. Same here.
Do you want to talk, or just register your opinion of what I said and move on? I’m fine either way, just wondered.
I don’t think DTF will ever “debate” you – that’s just not his style of communication. Its tends to be the style of people who are comfortable with linear thinking. Its like asking him to play basketball when he prefers soccer. I think of DTF as someone like Socrates…asking probing questions trying to get people to think a little deeper…and and in a way that makes us ask the really difficult questions.
When I read that I was, at first, offended as a philosophy major as it seemed to be a fundamental misunderstanding of the Socratic Method. But then I remembered that I have more than once called ductape our resident gadfly and I realized I was reacting with nit-picky attitude.
Of course, they killed Socrates for his insolence.
I am totally confused by your advocacy of DTF as some kind of guru who is on a par with Socrates. Totally. I’m sure you know me as thoughtful and inclusive and I’m totally confused now. Your citing of Socrates seems totally inappropriate in this context. I don’t need to be insulted in order to get me to think deeply. I have a BA from UC Berkeley, an MFA from CalArts, and both an MFA and PhD from UCLA and no one ever had to shame me into “thinking” with insults.
…to say that because I’m an American I would by default happily kill millions of babies by remote control because Bush asked me to is just plain goddamn insulting. I can’t think of any other word for it.
he’s not on a par with Socrates and if you read my comments in his diary you would know that I called him a propagandist. It’s not easy to buttonhole my position here.
Sorry I’m trying to hang in there and respond as best I can to numerous comments so maybe I don’t have the big picture. I’m glad to learn that you don’t see DTF as on a par with Socrates. I stand corrected. I was already confused and your long Socrates quote only served to confuse me further. The person I was quoting seemed to see DTF as some special kind of guru, who was teaching the ignorant multitudes through engaging us in his superiour forms of argument, so that’s what set me off in the first place.
I read that three times to make sure my eyes weren’t deceiving me.
DuctapeFatwa is being equated with Socrates?
Sure, Socrates pissed off the people of Athens for challenging conventional wisdom.
But DuctapeFatwa isn’t challenging conventional wisdom–you said it yourself, Booman. He wrote a “really really really bad diary” that was full of venomous hatred for Americans. His remarks are indefensible.
As for DuctapeFatwa as a great thinker on part with Socrates…I have yet to discover an original thought in any of his writings. No, that is not a nasty personal slight, it is the plain unvarnished truth.
Booman said that DuctapeFatwa has written on other things. So I looked at some of his writings.
Nothing original in there, nothing even approaching the intellectual challenge that Socrates presented.
First of all, in the Socratic method, truth is not presented as a whole, but rather emerges through a dialogue. As DuctapeFatwa refuses to engage in a dialogue–by the admission of NLN, that’s just not his “style”, to debate or to “dialogue”–he does not follow the Socratic method. I find it ironic that you quoted “The Apology” (which means an explanation, not an “apology” in our sense of the word), because Socrates uses that monologue to explain himself…which is something DuctapeFatwa never does.
Second of all, Socrates concerned himself with deep philosophical issues; his political views are unknown. The reverse is true of DuctapeFatwa, of course. He is all politics and his philosophy, such as it is, is quite shallow and is not any system worthy of further examination.
Third, I realize that you may argue that you meant that DuctapeFatwa is a gadfly in the tradition of Socrates, one who deliberately provokes in order to get people to think. Actually, when you tell people to their faces that they are willing to kill their own children upon a single command from the President, then no, you don’t get them to reason, you anger them so much that they strike back at you. Provoking anger is not the same as provoking thought.
Try this as an experiment next time you’re on the street, please. Walk up to the largest, toughest looking man you can find who is accompanied by a small child and say, “I’ll bet if President Bush told you to molest that little kid, you’d do it in a heartbeat.” After you get your teeth reimplanted by the dentist, perhaps you can find that man and explain that, like Socrates, you were merely trying to provoke him to think about child safety issues. That’s what DuctapeFatwa is doing.
this is your fundamental disconnect and the reason why your actions clashed so badly with a segment of the BT community.
You simply can’t get past the diary in question, which I admit was totally inexcusable. But he has been a member here for over a year and has a track record. Many people see him as a gadfly.
Even I do.
You can’t understand why that diary wasn’t universally condemned. Others can’t understand why you can’t overlook a little hyperbole, after familairizing themselves with his style.
That diary was a dismal failure and overstep. Many other diaries have been much closer to Socrates’ words:
I just have to admit that I am not a DTF expert, but it didn’t take just that one diary to totally turn me off to him. As you say, he has a track record.
As DuctapeFatwa refuses to engage in a dialogue–by the admission of NLN, that’s just not his “style”, to debate or to “dialogue”–he does not follow the Socratic method.
Please allow me to clarify MWOC, I NEVER said DTF doesn’t engage in “dialogue” – I said that I don’t think he will “debate” you. In my mind those are two very different things.
When I ask a question, and he does not answer, there is no debate, no dialogue, no conversation.
DuctapeFatwa pronounces from on high and then answers with snark and sarcasm.
DuctapeFatwa pronounces from on high and then answers with snark and sarcasm.
Sounds an awful lot like you guys have more in common than you think.
I’m not the one who climbed up on a Cross and pronounced himself a willing object of scorn, as DuctapeFatwa did.
I’m doing my best to hold my tongue as to what I really think of you, Spiderleaf. Let’s just say it’s not complimentary. And I don’t mean your ideas, I mean you, as a person, I find contemptible.
this is bullshit too.
stick with the ideas.
I wasn’t attacking Spiderleaf the PERSON–but Spiderleaf the ONLINE PERSONALITY.
Just as Spiderleaf doesn’t consider nationality an essential part of one’s identity, I don’t consider an “online persona” an essential part of one’s identity, either.
Therefore, no reasonable person could take offense at having his/her online persona attacked.
Just as I was unreasonable to take offense at having my nationality attacked and denigrated.
Amazing really.
If you knew me at all, as most of those on this site do, you’d know they are interchangable. I don’t hide who I am online.
But thanks for the kind words, I love you too.
You just stepped over it. You get a one.
I have not made a single comment on this brouhaha so far. I am doing this as part of what I feel is my responsibility to the site. Personal attacks prove nothing. Not everyone is going to agree with you all the time. Getting angry and spewing hate into this blog will not change that.
Thanks for being patient with this non-philosophy major person who’s last course in the subject was probably before you were born. Its a reminder that I need to not throw around words that I’m pretty ignorant about. I do appreciate that you seemed to have understood what I was trying to communicate anyway.
DuctapeFatwa won’t “debate” me because he doesn’t think he has to. Other people defend him instead of him defending himself, and what’s more important, he thinks that what he has said is so self-evident that it is not debatable.
DuctapeFatwa doesn’t think he’s posting his OPINION in his diaries, he think he’s posting the UNCHALLENGEABLE TRUTH.
And I have a BIG problem with that.
Second Nature actually helped clarify in my mind what my disagreement was with this definition:
The equating being American with a gender, religious belief, race, or sexual orientation. Instead of equating it with being anti-British or anti-Russian or anti-African or whatever.
I’m afraid I don’t quite understand how one comes to make the first comparison, or this combining of national identity with ones religion or gender, etc.
Nanette – that really gives me something to think about. What are the things that go into the making of our identity and how did they get there, what can I let go of and still be me, and how do I take criticism of those different parts of my identity?
Just a maybe off-topic example. My grandfather and father were involved in some business and church activities that I grew to think of as abhorent. Like colonization and evangelizing “natives” in other countries. I went through a period of extreme shame and depression because, no matter how much I could intellectualize that it was not me – it still felt like it was a part of me and I couldn’t ignore it any longer. But I did move on eventually. I’ll have to think a little more about how. Perhaps devoting most of my life to progressive politics and trying to stop that kind of thing is what I did.
I know exactly what you mean, Nancy, and I think that’s one of the main things people sometimes have to struggle with for various reasons.
I know I did, for a long time, because as a minority born in the US, one is automatically assigned a presumed group identity. I think that’s probably why I am so adamant at defining what is me, and what is not, although that doesn’t always do much good ;). Anyway though, I tend to think of group identities as a bad thing, and to be avoided at all costs, although some may think otherwise.
I don’t think it is that simple. You can definetly be anti-american ( ie, the people). But you can be anti-american without being prejudist againt the people. that is you can be anti-ucle-sam. Or, you can be anti-american in the sense of the idea of what it is to be an american (anti apple- pie).
you choose to define it as anti american people, while I think that Nanette is basically refering to the idea of what this country is all about.
I know I’m not anti-American… even as other Americans scream that into my face as I hold a sign that says “BRING THEM HOME NOW!” or “STOP TORTURE”… I know I’m not anti-America/n.
I do what I do because I want my country back. I do this because my love crosses the borders of the USA and extends outwards from my doorstep.
I oppose wars, killing, American white cowboy hat exceptionalism, torture, rape, did I say killing already…
I oppose bombing cities, schools, entire neighborhoods, I oppose using our military as guinea pigs for vaccinations while denying millions stem-cell research and compassionate medicine such as marijuana.
I oppose the war machine… yes.. I now oppose having a military. The billions that are dumped into a machine that’s main justification for being is to kill and kill in such an indiscriminate manner.
I am finding that money could be better spent on other things. Not just here in the States but abroad.
I am looking at the photographs of DEAD CHILDREN… MURDERED, RAPED, BLOODIED children for cripessakes… I don’t even have to say what country they are in.. because you know what… it happens EVERYWHERE.
Stop the killing. Stop the War Machine. Start a better way. Every vet I’ve ever met in person at a peace event has said that War is not the answer.
America can do better.
If that makes me a bad person because I hold this country up to higher standards than so be it.
And this is my last entry into any of this … I have to save my energy and my time for doing what I can do make things better for humans. Yes I have hate for Bush and the Regime… Yes I am outraged and Yes I’m not sure exactly what can be done about any of it… all I know is that we just need to keep TRYING to do things in a peaceful way… and infighting and slamming… it sucks so much energy out of things and there is so much that needs to be done.
So much.
I’m Pro-Peace
Pro-Children
Pro-Planet
Pro-Progress
Pro-Love
Pro-Diversity without Division
and support you also when you are protesting? They have done that for me three times now, twice in Colorado Springs before the war and once in Crawford. In Crawford a busload of counter protesters showed up and the following day counter protesters made sporadic mingled appearances but thousands and thousands of people sacrificed their weekend to stand with me……I’ll never get over that and I will never forget their sacrifice because Crawford Texas is no place. It has one gas station and if you were there that weekend it wasn’t by accident. Those people need to be noticed in my opinion to the degree at which they show up, lend support and participate with us. It isn’t just about the ones who spit at us or yell things at us…….I don’t go for them, I go for the vast majority of us who are good decent people and living our lives to the best of our abilities in good decent ways who are joining hands and joining hearts and joining forces to take our country back. That has been my protesting experience. In Colorado Springs before the war we had a downtown march and people started coming out of the businesses they were shopping in to march with us, it was amazing and beautiful and I will carry that with me always and the people being angry and spitting were so few they hardly mattered to me.
Tracy this isn’t about what happens to me or you personally at protests or even in our own homes… it’s about what is being done, and not done, in our names, under our flag, under our watch.
Yes, I’m an American, but FIRST I’m a mother, a woman and a human. And that is why I can no longer support what this govt is doing, or the slaughters… That is why I can no longer try to justify that killing and bombing anywhere for any reason is a good thing. More and more I see the militarization of so much in this country.
I just can’t do it any longer. Bring them home NOW. And don’t send another one to go out and kill anywhere ever again
Look past the borders, the flags, the parades… the planet is dying, babies are laying face first in bloody dirt…
Stop the killing, the wars… there’s a better way.
I love you very much. I’m not fighting. I’m not bad mouthing America or Americans.. I’m trying to say that we need to quit killing we need to START doing other things that lead to peace, progress and recovery.
It just scares me sometimes that you never post about the people standing with you and you only post about people yelling at you and spitting on you. And if another soldier ever says anything to you at all, I’m not kidding, my husband is demanding recourse and he wants the soldiers name……go ahead and put that name up here and my husband will follow up on it as a military officer and I’m sure many other people on here will also because that soldier broke the law! I haven’t participated in the protests that you have so I wouldn’t know, but I have received about 95% support from my countrymen and 5% hostility and anger. That isn’t what I read in your posts though and perhaps Oregon and Washington state are a much different social setting and you get more hate shot your way than anything……I don’t know Janet.
I do share about the people who end up walking with us … all the time. Look at some of my Now War Drum diaries.
The hate and the risk to anyone who has the balls to protest this war, this regime is due to the militarization and amped nationalism/exceptionalis… the good ole “our boys can’t do no wrong” banter.
And yes, next time a Marine Recruiter mocks shoot me in the head… I will this time try to have the wheretoall to get a name. Actually my friend who was there said she looked for a badge/name but the recruiters were wearing hip hop style black t-shirts.
It doesn’t matter what happens to me… it’s about what is being done in our name. It’s about bringing them HOME. NOW.
Lt. Watada is refusing to take troops into this illegal war. There are many more.. who are resisting
after they have faked a headshot at you (very nice), but he has to give you his name and who his commander is as well if you ask him. He is your soldier. I will ask my husband what the next step is tonight if a soldier doesn’t give you his name. I believe you had a photo of that guy up on the net and recruiters aren’t hard to find. Maybe we ought to start with him. I’m going to see if we can find out who he is since you have his photo….if nothing else at least he will be warned from here on out that he had better watch his ass when it comes to protests. My husband is done with soldiers smearing the uniform though by saying anything to protesters. He’s livid about it now that Booman has become so hostile to the military now. People are getting angry at the soldiers here now instead of focusing on getting them home and throwing their energies into that.
and I truly dont think I could ever walk up to another person who pretended to shoot me, Tracy. There’s just so much a person can do… If it happens again and yes my own husband has counseled me on bringing home names… then I will do so. Please thank him for me.
I did help stop that recruiter from enlisiting an autistic man here in Portland. I called and called and wrote letters to the media.
I can not NOT be outraged about the attrocities… and I can still work to get them home. This does not mean I hate the military or that I’m spitting on them. Not at all. I simply want them home so that we can start the healing. So that.. quite honestly.. we can stop the killing.
I can work hard at supporting the ones who are resisting this illegal occupation. I truly see that is a fantastic way to “support the troops”.
Yes, there is a growing backlash due to the attrocities. That happens when babies are raped and burned… One from that unit, the one who was beheaded, Tucker, he was from this area. Our soldiers and Marines should NOT be there. They should not be doing what they are doing.
They are humans first and should disobey war crimes orders. “just following orders” doesn’t cut it anymore. Not to me it doesn’t.
I’m very sorry, I know there are wonderful men in the military like your husband… but that doesn’t take away from the fact that this is an illegal occupation. That WAR CRIMES are happening so frequently.
I have faith that more and more soldiers will refuse to be apart of this massacre. An entire unit of guys have refused to go. I have faith that more and more citizens will support them that way.
and count me out of justifying and condoning a backlash. As a feminist I know all about backlash and I won’t play a part in it. It isn’t an illegal occupation Janet and I feel like because people say that so freely on here they use it to justify attacking the soldiers. It is only an illegal occupation in our opinion Janet….according to the law of the land though it is a legal war and until that is changed by the people nothing will change for the soldiers. That is where I will be spending my time and energies and I will not condone backlash on our soldiers and I can’t believe that your husband would either but everybody is not the same and I’m doing my best to deal with that.
From Lt. Watada
{June 7, 2006) – Family, Friends, Members of the Religious Community, Members of the Press, and my fellow Americans–thank you for coming today.
My name is Ehren Watada. I am a First Lieutenant in the U.S. Army and I have served for 3 years.
It is my duty as a commissioned officer of the United States Army to speak out against grave injustices. My moral and legal obligation is to the Constitution and not those who would issue unlawful orders. I stand before you today because it is my job to serve and protect those soldiers, the American people, and innocent Iraqis with no voice.
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Lt. Ehren Watada during recording of statement, June 6, 2006
It is my conclusion as an officer of the Armed Forces that the war in Iraq is not only morally wrong but a horrible breach of American law. Although I have tried to resign out of protest, I am forced to participate in a war that is manifestly illegal. As the order to take part in an illegal act is ultimately unlawful as well, I must as an officer of honor and integrity refuse that order.
The war in Iraq violates our democratic system of checks and balances. It usurps international treaties and conventions that by virtue of the Constitution become American law. The wholesale slaughter and mistreatment of the Iraqi people with only limited accountability is not only a terrible moral injustice, but a contradiction to the Army’s own Law of Land Warfare. My participation would make me party to war crimes.
Normally, those in the military have allowed others to speak for them and act on their behalf. That time has come to an end. I have appealed to my commanders to see the larger issues of our actions. But justice has not been forthcoming. My oath of office is to protect and defend America’s laws and its people. By refusing unlawful orders for an illegal war, I fulfill that oath today.
Thank you.
illegal Janet. Why else would he be in jail girl?
He’ll be going to jail because of speaking out against Bush. For not respecting him. Well then put me in for life.
Many go to jail for doing the right thing. You must realize that.
This military is “w”rong. This war is wrong, this REGIME is wrong.
Many clal him a disserter, a coward… I call him a hero.
I’m sorry but we disagree on this subject 100% then.
I have to go Tracy, I’m sorry. I truly truly am.
to law of the land he broke the law. You still can’t throw people in jail in America because of their views…….but you can hold you indefinitely at Gitmo. Janet, please understand that he is going to jail because he is breaking the law. He is making a statement yes about the “illegality” of the Iraq War but as far as the law of the land is concerned he has broken the law. As far as all authority in America goes right now, he has broken the law and that is why he is legally being imprisoned. Your view is about your beliefs, they are mine as well, but out beliefs are not the law right now and it is our job as citizens to ensure that the laws are just and if they aren’t we have to work to change that and not attack our soldiers because they won’t break the law for us!
Tracy is right about this. Whether or not the war is illegal, and what a soldier’s legal obligations to the military once he/she’s signed that contract are simply different things. The war itself may very well be illegal, but deserting (even in the midst of an illegal war by internation standards) is also illegal and while we might applaud the courage of some deserters the bottom line is that they’re going to end up doing time. It’s an ugly catch-22 situation for anyone currently serving in the military.
At its root, there is invisible threshold beyond which a soldier simply must refuse his orders and accept the consequences. For some, that threshold was crossed the moment Bush ordered the invasion, for others it was crossed when the lies behind the war became indisputable, to others it was when Abu Ghraib was exposed, for others it was when Falluja was sacked and white phosphorus was used, for others it was when it became clear that we had no plan and were hurting Iraqis more than we were helping them, and for others, we still have not reached that threshold.
If you think we’ve passed the threshold, you are going to have a hard time discussing the troops with someone that does not think that. But even more, if you think a soldier should go to jail and you are going to get sanctimonious about it, you should be prepared to be told to refuse to pay your taxes and take your punishement too.
Personally I don’t think any of this war’s deserters should go to jail. My opinion being what it is, I still have to acknowledge the fact that those who desert will regrettably spend time in prison.
well, what makes him a hero is that he is willing to SUBMIT to the law, in order to honor his oath to serve the highest civil law … the Constitution itself. THAT is what makes him a hero. He could have run across a border, or faked an industry. Many make those choices, and I’m not going to gainsay those who do. However, this is heroic because he chooses to be held accountable to this small set of laws in order to protest higher crimes. To serve a cause, he sacrifices himself to a system in order to STRENGTHEN that system.
oops …
faked an INJURY.
jeez.
…is very brave to stand up and say, “Put me in prison. I will not fight in this war.”
But that’s his individual decision.
I don’t agree with him, but I respect him. Took a LOT of guts to do what he did. A LOT.
My husband has stated that he would go to Leavenworth also. There are some orders that humans simply can not follow.
There is no law or order that would cause me to rustle out a family with their children adn shoot them in the faces… none. None what so ever. There is no law or oder that would make me fly over a city and drop bombs.
I’ve diaried about it much that I respect Watada, whom I’ve met and send money to his defense fund, that he’s not now saying he’s a concientious objector, or going AWOL… he’s STANDING UP and being accountable.
My daughter cried when she heard he might go to jail. He knelt down and tried to reassure her… there was not a dry eye amongst the veterans standing around that moment.
Lt. Watada has much honor and all my respect and support.
oops… that was if he was still enlisted. He says the military is conditioned to not think and for many reasons it’s needs to be that way… but one of the reasons he got out is because he wasnt’ a robot just following orders.
He said IF he was still in, he’d do what Watada and so many others are doing, but who are not getting the same publicity, he’d go to Leavenworth. And I’d support him with that decision.
That is why he wanted to meet Watada and why our family are committed to continuing to support Ehren and others.
It’s best to remember that in this new Global War on Terror that such quaint notions of international law and the Constitution become irrelevant. The Constitution itself is merely, as our Leader has reminded us, a damned piece of paper. What is considered “legal” requires a bit of mental gymnastics in this new age, but our nation’s best legal minds (such as Gonzales and Yoo) have been proven quite up to the task. If the Leader says it’s legal, it’s legal. He decided, and after all as The Decider that’s all that matters.
with it and have this be the framework that my nation functions in when they pry my fucking Constitution from my cold dead fingers. I am taking my country back, from the Constitution up!
Not according to the supreme court. By saying so you are just playing into this administration’s hands. According to the Geneva convention, This is a war of agresion, And yes, we had a right to go in afghanistan, but no excuse to go into Irak.They did nothing to us, and there should be no excuse!!
Tracy we aren’t backlashing… where did I post that I or my husband am???
Please… what is the matter??!?!??!?!
by so much emphasis on people who say or do undesireable things to you and leaving out as much mention of the multitude that supports you and makes that clear as well, and I feel like you are okay with the backlash on the soldiers when it happens. Your above post sounded very accepting of the concept and the action of it. You brought your husband up in the above post, I figured he was okay with all of what has been happening on here lately.
I’m feeding a backlash because I don’t do or post a certain way?? What? Should I stroke the military’s ego while I protest an illegal war?
Oh my gawd Tracy.
I’m trying to stop the killing. I’m trying to stop this illegal war. If doing that means I’m feeding the backlash.. then fine.
I’ve had the freeper type holler at me that I’m lowering military morale by protesting Bush.
I’ve had the freeper type tell me that I’m the cause of our troops being killed by insurgents becaues I don’t support this war.
But I never ever thought I’d be told by a dear friend that I’m feeding the hate of the military.
Maybe.. just maybe the military could stop raping babies and using illegal weapons like nampalm. Maybe the military could grow a backbone and speak out against this war and this regime. Maybe they could just stop following orders.
when I have protested that the freeper types are few and far between though. I’m not trying to hurt your feelings Janet, not in any way. I’m sorry if what I have expressed here has hurt your feelings. It has just been my take on things and that is only my opinion. I know that a child was raped and murdered along with her family but how we can mass punish soldiers for what a few did? I know that atrocities have been committed but once again how can we mass punish all of them for a few have done and are now going to be brought to justice for?
Tracy, I have a question for you. And I’d ask that you please understand this as a real question in an attempt to understand you – not an attempt to make a point.
When you say this:
I know that a child was raped and murdered along with her family but how we can mass punish soldiers for what a few did?
Do you also think the abuses at Abu Garaib were an example of a few soldiers? If not, doesn’t it speak to a more general “disease” in our military? Or maybe its not an either/or laid out like this for you.
was that military intelligence was responsible for Abu Ghraib and Abu Ghraib isn’t alone in the prison scandals either. M.I. picked the M.P.s out who were in the Abu Ghraib photos, they were hand culled out of Karpinski’s troops to aid M.I. in interrogation. I believe in Karpinski’s book she has evidence of Memos from her Command detailing a few interrogation techniques. In my opinion though the whole prison and interrogation situation was conducted by M.I. and Rummy wasn’t about to fess up to that. Most soldiers are not M.I. though and if you are an old soldier like my husband you cherish the Geneva convention and refuse to break it. M.I. is it’s own evil under this administration though IMO.
You know this country can do better in the way it treats its own people and those beyond our shores. That’s not anti-Americanism, that’s humanitarianism first and patriotism second.
Anti-Americans, as Booman and Tracy already defined it, are people who say that all Americans (or very nearly all of us) are evil, bloodthirsty people who cannot be reasoned with–so why even try?
If you didn’t think you could turn people’s hearts and change their minds, you wouldn’t be protesting, would you?
By the way, Janet, I work for the public schools and every time I hear the “there’s no money for __” mantra, I think of all the billions squandered in Iraq, and the young lives lost and ruined, and it just makes me sick. $200 billion spent on Iraq and counting. We could have rebuilt every crumbling public school in the country for that kind of money, and had enough left over for humanitarian and economic aid to the Iraqi people so they can provide food, health care, and education for their children.
Yes, we could do so much more with that money. It’s obscene how much this bloodbath is costing our kid’s future. Thank you for your words.
How to define anti-americanism? Perhaps its me.
First of all, I try not to refer to people in this country as americans. Just a little language battle that I’m taking on. Since we’ve never come up with another way to categorize US citizens, that’s what I’ll use here.
Since I don’t think all US citizens are evil, bloodthirsty people who cannot be reasoned with, maybe I’m not anti-US citizens. But as so many people have pointed out, those who have experienced the end of a gun or bomb you and I have paid for, might not make a distinction.
A lot of this comes down to perhaps varying levels of responsibility for the abuses that have been perpetuated in our name and with our dollars. We all do fight against these abuses, everyone here knows that. But some of us don’t think we are absolved of any and all responsibility for those abuses because of that. I might not have the same level of responsibility as Cheney or Rumsfeld – but that doesn’t make me blameless.
Diaries written by NorthDakotaDemocrat not too long ago about non-violent resistance pointed out that no matter how much power a government has, they cannot do what they do without the compliance of the people. We have to wrestle with that. I can’t quite get to the point of asking soldiers to disobey orders until I’m ready to stop paying my federal taxes though. Sometimes I wonder why I haven’t done that – I know its lack of courage. And I have to live with that.
Partial response: Those who would urge allegiance to a “brand” rather than to principle. It is indicative of a kind of blind fascism and suppresses democracy.
It really depends on your conception of anti-Americanism. I think the US government deserves about as much scorn and derision as it can get, but at the same time I generally like most Americans I meet, even the conservative Republicans. Just don’t bring up politics.
Personally, I think you can hate the US military as an institution, but still hope for the safety of the individual soldiers who make up the armed forces. Maybe I’m wrong on that, I don’t know, maybe militarytracy might be able to share her thought on that opinion?
For me, anti-Americanism would be something like wishing death on individual Americans, or saying all Americans are evil, corrupt, stupid, etc.
Kindest, sweetest most thoughtful person I know…is a Bush supporter.
She was horrified at the revelations of torture in Abu Ghraib. Is horrified at most of what Bush has done and is doing.
But is still a “Bush supporter”.
And I get along with her great as long as we don’t discuss politics. Lately, she won’t talk about Bush at all. She won’t denounce him but no more ringing declarations of support, either.
I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the idea of this lovely person voting for Bush twice, and giving him her unconditional support for so long…though no longer, I suspect.
I actually get along socially with a lot of “Republican” types because we share a lot of the same “upper class” pursuits like horseback riding, drinking, and sailing. I don’t have to agree politically with somebody to be their friends, but I did have someone eye my suspiciously when I voiced my political views and ask, “I thought you said you were an ARMY VETERAN?” The guy couldn’t comprehend the notion of a politically progressive vet, I guess…but there are lots of us.
I consider Bush and his crowd to be anti-American.
They despise American values: Democracy. A free press. Freedom of speech. A fair and justice legal, educational, and economic system.
They despise the American people: they dismiss us a “focus group” and continually defy our will (Bush’s veto of the stem cell funding bill is just the latest kick in the crotch to “we, the people”). Bush left my fellow Americans to die in New Orleans when Hurricane Katrina ravaged that city, and then his contemptible harpy of a mother chuckled that things had “worked out well” for the survivors as they huddled under their Salvation Army blankets in the Houston Astrodome.
They betray our national interest: They weaken our economy at home with reckless deficit spending, alienate us from our allies, drag us into wars that cost us hundreds of billions and are destroying the effectiveness of our military, and throw even more money into the bank accounts of the rich.
Bush and Cheney and their bunch HATE America. They hate the best in us, and they bring out the worst in us.
Makes you wonder how bad things have to get before there is an election that isn’t close enough to steal.
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Know what I see there? A whole lot of Americans who hate this war and are doing something about it.
I see friends.
Not everyone there was American. In fact there are people involved locally in Portland in the peace movement that are not American.
I didn’t mean to imply that everyone was American, just that there are Americans that are out there actively working against this administration. I just can’t share the self-flagellation.
You know what it reminds me of, DJ? I listen to the online sermons of a fundie local church. They’re main message is ‘mankind is evil, we are broken, we are not worthy, we must conform to what god wants us to be or we will burn in hell.’ Everytime I read one of these diaries (not necessarily this one) where people beat themselves up for living in America I think of those sermons. I think it’s sad and counterproductive.
People are motivated toward change in different ways. Some people have to look themselves in the mirror and say, “I suck, my life sucks, and today I’m going to do something about it.” Other people need to cultivate a belief in themselves before they can work up the courage to improve their lives. What you find sad and counterproductive just might be someone else’s catalyst toward positive action.
Definitely people motivate themselves differently, but to start with “I suck and there isn’t anything positive about me” can’t be very healthy.
Just to be clear, I haven’t flown or displayed a flag, flag sticker, flag decal, t-shirt or anything even remotely resembling a flag for at least the entire Bush administration. Do I love my country? Of course I do – everyone I love is here. But I’m not of the mind that everything American is evil. And it’s almost like lately some people on this site want me to say that, and it makes me very uncomfortable.
I agree with this Second. My catalyst is my chidlren, my love and desire for peace. Anger spurs me on but hatred doesn’t drive me.
I definitely don’t think everything American is “evil”… But I don’t feel that everything or even a majority of American politics, policies and practices are good.
I’m talking politics, policies and practices moreso than people.
Many people need to “hit bottom” before they do anything to change their behavior. An “I suck” moment may be exactly what some people need. For others, it may indeed be unhealthy. The point is that what works as a negative stimulus for one person may well have a positive effect on another.
Just because someone expresses a particular point of view and others agree with that point of view, or at least think it raises issues worth discussing, doesn’t mean that everyone is required to fall in line and endorse that viewpoint. It’s impossible to stay within everyone’s comfort level on a political blog–hence the old admonition that religion and politics are never discussed in polite company.
I see that too many have died and been disabled so that people can have a false sense of whatever the hell it is they feel.
I see murdered children and I say it’s not right. I see disabled men and women coming home and for what???
So that we can feel good that some “nice American” let someone ahead of them in a grocery line? Because some American does a good deed?
This country can do better than what is doing within it’s borders and beyond.
My fight is not with anyone here. My stance is against Bush and this Regime and yes… with the war criminals… who ever they may be.
But, DJ, do you honestly think there is anyone on this site who sees murdered children and thinks “this is great?!” You’re ascribing feelings to the average American that I think are wrong.
Not on this site… but Second I’ve seen those people several times.
“Better there children than mine”. Heck, I’ve seen BANNERS with that sentiment. I’ve seen actually seen worse signs… extremely racist ones.
The sentiment is out there.
You asked what is going on?
I don’t know much, but it seems to me that people are getting their HOT buttons pushed. In the mental health and self-improvement modes that can be a good thing. Most all of us have spent our lifetimes cultivating and growing HOT buttons and we have them very deeply placed in our psyche. . .sometimes we think we don’t even know we have them. Most of us like to be fairly dishonest with ourselves, I mean, heck. . .I don’t like looking at those disgusting parts of me, those unreasonable and nasty thoughts that come rushing forth at the flick of a mere “button”. . .and if anyone is going to push that button, it should be me, not someone else, damn it! But also most of us aren’t very good at or even very interested in deep and honest self evaluation. And generally when we are forced into it it is easier to deny it and defend our denial or to go the other route and begin to beat ourselves up over having the button at all.
Our lack of skills and lack of honest desire to examine ourselves just sucks. And so we continue on, because it is easier to do nothing than to do something. Besides, we are all too busy, aren’t we?
That’s my opinion. That and 5 bucks will get you a pretty good cup of coffee.
I don’t think most of us know how to be honest with ourselves and often if we are, we are not very happy with what we see. There is a better way. Ya just have to want to do it and develop the healthy skills to do it with.
[Here is a great example: I just recently read something I had written and sent out to a group of people a while ago. It occurred to me, and shocked I was to have the thought, that some people might find it a very pompous bit of pontification on my part. Sure, I know I didn’t mean it that way, but if I could see it that way now, only a few months later. . .others might have as well. I HATE HAVING TO LOOK AT THAT! But I need to look at that and so I am. I am discovering how I can use a different way of saying those things without possibly sounding so pious. My own feet of clay “stink” some times, but I am willing to wash them and start again.]
Sorry I didn’t answer your question directly. . .but you know how differently I see things. . .LOL
Hugs
Shirl
A true patriot would not use the word patriot.
Please feel free to substitute himself for herself.
To me the point of life is being able to express yourself and experiencing others going through the same journey. I always hope that people will not look for common ground so much (how boring!) but will put themselves on stage and dance their unique dance. Am I deluding myself if I think that this attitude used to be more engrained in this corner of the globe than elsewhere? And I think I associate the label American with it. If I can’t dance my own dance when I feel like it, but first have to find out if it is OK with ‘the others’ before I can do my thing, I don’t live in America any more.
Nanette – thank you for bringing this up.
There is an interesting exercise in which two people sit across from each other. One person asks the other over and over, “Who are you?” The question is asked repeatedly. The purpose is to observe one’s own replies to see what surfaces.
Your questions and the resultant discussion have been very interesting. I wonder whether the differences people have to what they even consider “anti-American” has any relation to where “I am an American” is in their personal identity.
To identify others as “anti-American” leads me to wonder how people define being an “American.”
Anyway – thanks.
Thank you, tampopo. I think we are all learning things, at least I know I am.
America (I suppose we’ll define as USA) is merely the nation within whose borders I was born. I’m more likely to identify myself as a father, husband, Christian, or human being well before identifying as an American. Heck, we don’t even celebrate the 4th of July at my house – we celebrate my wife’s birthday instead. I’m sure that may well put me in hot water with some folks here. So it goes.
Being “American” simply isn’t that central to my identity, and I look at criticism of “America” or “Americans” largely as nonthreatening. If anything, like Nanette, I tend to take being “American” as something dynamic – changeable, at least to some extent in terms of politics, cultural norms, etc., and that I can have at least some impact in affecting such changes.
for the love of Christ, JB. It is the height of arrogance to be an American and to sit idly by while someone disparages Americans and refuse to acknowledge that their criticism applies to you.
I’m not sure where you’re getting that. ‘Splain.
It;s like someone walks right up to you and calls you a motherfucker and you look over your shoulder as though they are talking to someone ten feet behind you. No. They called YOU a motherfucker. Not someone else. You can’t say “I don’t self-identify as an American, you can’t possibly be directing that hostility to me”. You don’t have that option. You have been prejudged and characterized as a baby killer whether you like or agree with it or not.
Or maybe it’s like I know that what’s said applies to me, and that I don’t feel that threatened by it. Instead, I find myself wondering if there’s some grain of truth to it, and if there is what I need to be doing differently. Hell, after being married over ten years, I’ve come to realize that sometimes the barbs that come my way really do have a great deal of validity, and that I really do need to re-examine how I communicate, or act as a spouse. I’ve also learned from over ten years of marriage that immediately going on the defensive when said barbs are slung at me does not serve any purpose but to escalate conflict.
This may or may not be satisfactory to you. I dunno. Maybe you’re hoping for me to feel something that I am not capable of feeling. If so, we’re at an impasse, I guess.
And if someone’s accusing me personally of being a babykiller, although on the surface such an accusation seems absurd to me, I do have to wonder to what extent my actions or lack thereof would say otherwise. I ask myself that a lot these days.
i can’t think of a more privileged view.
I can just imagine John Lewis pondering how being called an ape might just have some validity.
Privileged? How?
I’m just a working stiff.
I will have to save any more comments for tomorrow as I have ceased to make sense (I know, some will say I never began to, lol) and I am old(ish) and my eyes hurt.
Thanks to everyone for participating (agreeing or disagreeing!).
I was thinking of writing some replies but in reading back over the comments, I realized that much of the conversation that is going on is not one I really want to continue, as it has only a marginal relation to what the diary is about and why I wrote it.
The general impression seems to be that I wrote this diary in defense of Ductape, and the points I have attempted to make are about him and some of the reactions to him within his last diary and after. I did not, and they are not.
Well, I was in the middle of typing a long thing about my policies regarding defending people’s words, especially in regards to those of my controversial friends (of which I have a few), friends that even include some right wingers, and my belief in letting people defend (or not, as they are able) their own words and then reiterating what this diary is really about…
But then I realized that what the diary is about and what my point is has been said numerous times… in the diary itself, in the comments by me and others and I doubt my ability to say it any more clearly and in a way that can break through the “this is all about Ductape Fatwa!” wall, which I think quite conveniently (although perhaps not consciously) obscures the underlying issues I was hoping to address.
Anyway, the great communicator I am obviously not! I thank everyone for their comments, I have learned some new things and can more understand some reactions and have been given things to think on.
Always a plus, that 🙂