On August 17, U.S. Army First Lieutenant Ehren Watada will face a pre-trial hearing for refusing to deploy to Iraq. “It is my conclusion as an officer of the armed forces that the war in Iraq is not only morally wrong but a horrible breach of American law. The war and what we’re doing over there is illegal,” explained the first military officer to publicly take such a stand.
As supporters internationally gear up for the “National Day of Education” on Aug 16 to ask the question “Is the Iraq War Illegal?,” support from Iraq combat veterans continues to mount for Lt. Ehren Watada
Below are just a few statements of support from the many that the “Friends and Family of Lt. Watada” have received.
Take from the Action Alert at Thank you Lt dot org
Snippets from Action Alert Email on how to support the men and women in uniform from having to engage in an illegal occupation via… Courage to Resist
Below are just a few statements of support from the many that the “Friends and Family of Lt. Watada” have received.
Cloy Richards, US Marine Iraq War infantry/artillery
“Lt. Watada, along with every other service member who has the courage to stand up and say no to this illegal war are MY WAR HEROES. Thank you Lt. Watada for standing up for me and every veteran. I admire your courage and patriotism. I wish I was brave enough to stand up and say no when it really counted. Instead I said OK and went along with the lies I was told.”
Clifton Hicks, US Army Iraq War tanker
“You’ve done something to be proud of man, you’re setting an excellent example for every soldier in the armed forces. History will prove that you were right.”
Chad Hetman, Captain, US Army infantry
“Hopefully this officer will set an example for other officers to follow…This is what courage and ethics looks like.”
Garett Reppenhagen, US Army Iraq War sniper
“Thank you Lt. Watada. I was a sniper in the 1st Infantry Division and spent one year at FOB Scunion in Baquaba Iraq. I went to war believing that I had an obligation to my country because I signed a contract and gave an oath that I would be the weapon of my democracy. After my experience in combat I firmly believe that, that social contract has been broken.”
Read more statements of support here
Five years in prison for speech?
The Army has formally charged Lt. Watada two counts of making “contemptuous words” towards President Bush. In short, Lt. Watada has expressed his opinion that “our government led us into war based on misrepresentations and lies.” This is the first known prosecution of this “criminal violation” (Article 88 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice) since 1965. Could it be that because this opinion is so widely shared, that it is so threatening?
The Army charges that these same words also constitute “conduct unbecoming and officer and a gentleman.” As such, Lt. Watada now faces over five years in military prison for his opinions alone.
It is Lt. Watada’s outspoken stand for truth that has most angered Army brass. Even before he refused to board an Iraq-bound aircraft on June 22 with the 3rd Stryker Brigade, he was already under investigation for expressing his opinions about the war.
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Of course not everyone supports Lt. Watada…
Free Speech Threatned in New Haven, CT by Marine with a Bat
“Activists in New Haven, CT were confronted with a bat-wielding Marine as they expressed their support for war resisters in conjunction with nationwide actions in support of Lt. Ehren Watada in late June.’ AP
I’ve seen this hatred myself. They call Watada horrible names while they spit on the people trying to stop this needless killing, death and violence.
please take note that he going to down doing some serious time. I support him, but my husband can not and remain a military officer. If you ever knock my husband and family ever again Janet for taking the Sir, No Sir stance in all of this all I can say to you is it is time for you and/or your husband (who the military would take back in a heartbeat and they are writing waivers for everything imaginable right now) to enlist immediately and then refuse deployment and go to jail to make your statement. When you do that, we will be right behind you!
This is uncalled for Tracy.
See ya!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
None of them can go to jail to for saying any of this. I like how conveniently that seems to be left out, nice lack of education of how things really work if you ask me. There is the Marshall guy, but he only goes so far as to say that he admires Watada. He has put his ass on the line plenty for just saying that. I will not condone anybody any longer though saying that people who already put their asses on the line for what used to be the United States need to put their asses on the line any more than they already do for the rest of us. Civilians are failing the soldiers……the soldiers are not failing the Civilians!
Well, the civilians in this case are from Courage to Resist, and their efforts are to support troops that refuse to participate in Iraq. I’m not sure that they can provide much in the way of support, since it is clearly a crime to refuse orders to deploy. But at least they are trying to back up their sentiments with action.
While I agree that it is the civilians that are failing the military, and I agree that it is presumptuous to insist that soldiers go to jail, I don’t understand why this issue pisses you off so much.
Each group goes about doing what they can in their own way. Some people have a very principled position that the war in Iraq is immoral and that no one should participate in it. But rather than pick on the soldiers, they’d do better to work on the voters. That’s why Lamont is a big deal. When Dems discover it is unsafe to be pro-war, then things will start changing.
For the list of organizers who endorse this campaign to support those resisting this war.
Organizations it’s bigger than just Courage to Resist.
thanks for the list. I didn’t mean to imply it was only courage to resist, just that you linked to them.
the soldiers??? and the comment about knocking tracy’s family/husband and now this “they’d do better than to pick on the soldiers”
I take great offense to this, Booman. I have not knocked her family. I have not picked on any soldier. And this action alert does not ask NOR IMPLY anyone to do so either.
How did civilians fail this military?? My vote didn’t seem to count in this election of Bush. My letters to stop this war went unread, so now my action alerts and marching are under attack. So be it.
No. I do not support them being there. Nor the attrocities happening due to their being left without an agenda, proper armor, proper food. THAT was done and created by this Administration.
bloggers do some erasing for you before you make that claim Janet. I think Booman needs to look back on our last Watada conversation here too to get an idea of everything that transpired between us.
My comments to you have mostly been in the mode of defense. You have basically attacked every comment and diary I’ve made on this issue. You make it seem like anyone else can not have an opinion or a stance on this because your husband is IN the military.
Due to the recent attacks here, yes, I now feel I have to voice my opinion elsewhere… so as not to conflict with any friendships here. I have never bashed you, I have been stunned and shocked though. I have commented time and time again that I do not do this to hurt you or anyone.. I do this because I have to.
I believe in peace, I no longer believe in the war machine. It’s not a path to anything but more blood and hate.
I was surprised to even see you IN this Action Alert as I thought we had agreed to disagree.
Again, Booman, should I delete this in order to preserve peace within the green borders?
My last conversation about Watada with you was just the facts and I was very very appropriate and you chose to not respond or reply back. You don’t want to deal with facts. You like to distort and create shitstorms and chaos…that is my opinion of you these days. And if you are too afraid of me to talk facts with me and you have to go elsewhere to talk bullshit….fine, go there.
I refuse to fight or argue with you Tracy.
We’re both moving towards the same ideas… just on different sidewalks is all.
but we aren’t moving toward the same ideas at all. You are trying to make victims out of people because you are angry about other victims out there. It’s a funny thing Janet, but when accountability and responsibility are clearly outlined for everyone who is involved there are far fewer victims to be found or made! Right now though you make me sick because on one hand you can’t wait to announce to certain audiences that your husband was once in the military (but he isn’t now Janet and you don’t know what it is like to be me, you just wish you did I believe) and then in the presence of other audiences you can’t wait to announce that every man or woman in uniform deploying to Iraq is scum……hell bent on destruction and murder! So who are you really?
I have never said that about the troops.
I am still me. I am against this war. The only thing that has changed is that I now against ALL wars.
War is RAPE
War is TERRORISM
WAR is DEATH
No good can possibly come from war. None.
that Engineers to the concentration camps bit in there. I’m a little bit confused.
Seems to me these comments are further proof of that, ie that militarism is fundamentally wrong. There is no such thing as a good war. I have friends in the military in Iraq and Turkey right now but I will not be afraid of telling them that what they do is wrong because it is always twisted so that any noble goals are impossible to achieve. This has been the case for a loooong time. I think the only war the US has EVER been involved in that could be considered moral is WWII, and yet part of the reasons we finally got involved were for economic reasons (like almost all of our wars).
I’ve written about the Dolchstoßlegende before, and while I have ordinarily associated that particular rhetorical device with right-wing hardliners, I am coming to realize that the same device seems perfectly appropriate for tolerant liberals as well in this brand new age that we live in.
about me, military families who aren’t insisting that their soldier goes to jail and places their family’s welfare in jeopardy, in other places that have been said by Janet and some others who frequent Booman Tribune. I know you don’t understand Martin, it is all theories and ideas to you. My husband is a damned soldier though, this isn’t theory to me this is my life the hell I live with everyday right now! And you wonder why it pisses me off and you wonder why the little soldier hater following here pisses me off so much and you wonder why I want every word I have ever typed to be removed from their presence when they all attack!
I wish you would try to make your case in a calmer manner. I know it is really really hard. When you take this hard line though, you drive people off the site. I don’t see anything in this diary that is hostile to your husband, but you flamed it pretty severely. And that makes it unpleasant for everybody.
I understand Janet has written some things that you find to be overly broad and offensive and critical of your family. But you two should be able to argue the merits in a civil way. Janet keeps trying to achieve some kind of reconciliation.
For my part, I sympathize with both of your positions. Strangely, I kind of agree with both of you.
Look at the article I just wrote. It could be used to attack the soldiers. But it attacks Joe Lieberman instead. I know that he is more to blame than a man that signed up to protect this nation and its constitution. I also know that it a very rational decision for a soldier to refuse to fight in Cheney’s wars.
And I understand why some people call for them to do that. I also understand why most soldiers are not willing to make that sacrifice, and that they feel duty-bound to their units, if nothing else.
I only ask that you not stalk Janet and try to work through this argument in a civil way. You’re not all that far apart. She’s developing a pacifist consciousness. I don’t share or agree with that consciousness, but it is principled. She’s coming from a decent and honorable place, and she figure out the strenghts and weaknesses of that view, (perhaps with your help).
She needs a safe place to work out her ideas. And we need a more civil conversation. We’re all here to help be supportive of you and your family as you face another possible deployment. I, at least, will support you no matter what happens.
I have not criticized or made any judgement on Tracy’s family or decisions.
You are right, I am growing out of any desire or justification for any war machine and that has come about from reading various voices here and meeting others on the street. I don’t blog to say… “I’m right and this is the way”… I’ve always come here as a way to learn, share, grow and change.
my husband is an engineer for the train heading to the concentration camps for one. That one was easy, I can go digging for all the rest.
based on a past very calm exchange that I had with Janet about Lt Watada and why military officers weren’t speaking out…..she blew me off because she doesn’t like the facts. I told her what my concerns were about how she was playing the Lt. Watada story. In this diary there are photos of soldiers in uniform saying they support Watada. She put up their rank and which branch they were in but she failed to mention that these were photos from when they were active soldiers. They aren’t active duty soldiers any longer. Based on my past conversation with Janet, either she doesn’t care about misrepresenting the facts or maybe she overlooked stating that these soldiers were no longer active duty and therefore weren’t in any danger of going to jail for supporting Watada. I made my concerns about all of this and misrepresenting the facts of what regulations active duty soldiers were bound to before and obviously she doesn’t care what military families think or feel about such facts being misrepresented. How did I run her off the site and she had to post elsewhere….I was very appropriate during that whole conversation and she didn’t want to talk to me about it. She wanted to believe what she wanted to believe no matter what the facts were and that was that.
I’m sorry you feel I blew you off. Sometimes it’s hard to find and answer each comment. Sometimes a thing called “life” happens. Sometimes I simply refuse to engage with you. You are hurting and lashing out at many people here. Many.
Where in my diary does it say the men were active?? I was not misrepresenting anything. There was a LINK to the entire story if people chose to follow the military comments… or so they could find out more in how to be a part of the National Day of Education.
The analogy of the engineer driving the trains to concentration camps… that is how I feel about the recent round of excuses for why men won’t stand up and speak out. They don’t want to harm their families finances.. What about Iraqi families? Don’t they matter? And that wasn’t abotu YOUUUUUUUUUUUU it was about a woman who threw herself at us at a vigil. Screaming at us that her husband has to go to Iraq… to support her family. Not to support the Constitution… which Bush has crapped all over.
This isn’t about You.
this is how I understand this:
In this situation, what to do when given orders you do not agree with? There is a very high threshold beyond which a soldier must refuse to obey orders and take the consequences. BUT. It is the same threshold beyond which you cannot agree to pay your taxes. No difference that I can see.
You cannot ask someone to go to jail if you are not willing to do the same for the same reason.
And that is where I see Tracy getting upset. What do you think of this line of reasoning?
#4 They’re duty bound…??
I see the military is spitting on Lt. Watada and many many others who stand up against this. In fact they are FREE to voice their opinions about that. .. but yet they remain quiet and in many cases complicit in the UNIT approved rapes, rampages and other various war crimes that have come to light.
While they cower behind their rules of the UCMJ while picking and choosing which laws they will and will not abide by when it suits them.
How dare they NOT stand up against that. They are the very ones who have failed the trust of the Iraqi’s and many who were trying to get them home.
I do NOT need to stand in front of a small child and point a gun at it in order to prove that I would or wouldn’t go through with it.
There is a choice here Booman.. to go to Iraq and kill Iraqi children, to support your “brothers” and “units” while attrocity after attrocity occurs.
OR they can be heros and stand up and say NO.
What I see instead is that they choose to remain silent while they bash those who do have the integrity to stand up against this sham of a war.
And each time we go out and protest… we risk arrest. Maybe not for the same thing… but at lesat I don’t have to wear a gun while I march.
I may sound harsh here… but I’m very angry at the abuse and bashing in a thread that was supposed to be about getting to the truth of the law of the land.
at best it’ll be a one night stay, not five years. There is no comparison Janet and once again I’m back to encouraging you to enlist today and then you can go to jail for five years to make the political statemnt that you desire others to make for you. Isn’t that much more fair, I mean really!
we had lawyers there salivating on themselves hoping we got arrested.
I already made that choice to not enlist. Like each and everyone here.
I never would have made it through bootcamp.
I have ALWAYS questioned authority. I could never kill a person, a child, a civilian…
now. You don’t even have to pass bootcamp. They’re okay with that now.
You know why??
Because people know this illegal occupation is nothing but about supporting a lying president who wasn’t even elected.
No one wants to be a war criminal.
to go jail to make your point. The whole point is that you refuse to deploy so that you can make your political statement. You want to abuse and victimize soldiers and you want them to go to jail to make your point for you as well! Spoiled and petulant is what I call that.
wait a second.
People do not go to Iraq in order to commit atrocities. Maybe some of recent skinhead recruits do that, but not normally.
That’s where you get resistance. Tracy’s husband may have to go back. Do you think he is going to rape anyone? Do you think he is going to target innocent civilians? Do you think his leadership might prevent that from happening?
It’s a question of rhetoric, really. If you aren’t careful, you’ll cast aspersions on honorable people.
These are not easy issues to tackle. For example, Diane101’s Iraqi friend thinks we can’t leave Iraq or it will be a humanitarian disaster. Is she a baby killer? This is a complicated affair, here.
This is what I’m angry about. It has been brewing and brewing and brewing and perhaps you haven’t noticed it, I don’t expect you to babysit. This is where my anger comes from though. This has been said more than once in other places and implied many places here as well and I’m done with it.
I think that if grown men aren’t brave enough to stand up against an illegal war.. then do you really think they will have the ability to stand up against attrocities that they’ll face once in Iraq?
It’s all about the brotherhood, the unit…
Screw civilians and other’s rights.
Show me one thing that is “honorable” due to our “liberators” in Iraq.
Cripes even Riverbend wants them out.
So I guess now I can’t ever voice my thoughts… Must’nt piss off the “honorable” ones who are too scared to stand up against an illegal war.
When I met Lt. Watada.. I told him ever since I was a little girl I didn’t understand how a soldier could follow the orders of the Nazis to do the horrible things they did.
Well I guess we now know how and why. b
Becuase it’s “complicated”
Nothing complicated about a robot military who will just “Follow orders”.
Let me ask you a question Booman. Would you stand guard for another troop as they raped a young child? And would you realize how that would bring dishonor on all?
honestly Janet, I really think you need to refuse to pay your taxes and do some jail time before you can ask soldiers to do the same. It’s not any more complicated than that. I would not see anything wrong with you doing it either. But to question the courage of a soldier that follows his orders rather than go to jail, when you have the exact same option but refuse to make it, just doesn’t add up for me.
You pay that soldier’s salary and pay for his upkeep and weapons. If it is wrong for him to deploy it is equally wrong for you to pay for his deployment.
Would I stand guard and watch a soldier rape someone? Probably not. But the only reason we know about it is because someone ratted them out.
And we are not just raping people. I remind you of Diane101’s friend, and her opinion that the worst thing we can do is leave.
I think we should leave. But I am not going to slam anyone that thinks otherwise.
Probably not?!
this is just me acknowledging that it would be presumptuous of me to take some kind of morally superior stance that I would never do anything immoral if placed in the same position as the soldiers in Iraq.
I certainly hope that I would have the courage to stop something like that, or to report it. But I am not going to assume my moral compass would remain undamaged in an extended tour in a foreign country where my buddies are getting killed.
I have my moral compass as it exists today. It could be destroyed under certain circumstances. I’m not arrogant enough to assume otherwise.
That’s why war is such a tragedy. No one went to Iraq hoping to commit an atrocity.
Actually, given what I know of the work of Milgram, Haritos-Fatouros, Zimbardo, and others, I think Booman’s reply “probably not” is reasonable. Truth is, one really does not know what one will do until thrown into a very powerful situation, such as the situations that many troops face in places like Iraq. The social environment (such as whatever norms might govern the military in general or perhaps a specific unit; pressure to conform; etc.) can overwhelm individuals who might otherwise believe that they would not commit some of the atrocities that we’ve read about.
Food for thought.
Thanks, you’re right. I was trying to show how strange that was by tossing the question right back. Sorry just a bit frazzled.
I haven’t slammed her thoughts in that diary.
Booman, most of the attrocities have come about because the Iraqis “ratted them out”.. Haditha… and the Abu Ghraib photos were outted because the military were so arrogrant about this that they actually photographed it. Not because some soldier… some balls… and the ones that have come out and refused to return.. have had to flee to other countries.
I can not believe the abuse, the name calling in this thread.
Thanks for trying to make some boundaries but the damage is done. This thread is trashed.
Mission Accomplished.
yes, the thread is trashed. I’m sorry about that.
Actually, Abu Ghraib was exposed by a soldier that came forward with a CD-ROM of the photos and reported it. Haditha was exposed by a soldier in counselling.
Soldiers have come forward.
Regardless, the principle problem is that we got into this mess in the first place. It isn’t clear that our soldiers are morally compelled to refuse their orders right now. If Iraqis are split, then how can it be so clear?
If ordered to torture someone, that’s clear. If ordered to provide security for a neighborhood against sectarian militias seeking to commit murder, it is not so clear.
There are links to articles that were to discuss that very topic. The legality of this as well as how to support those troops who can stand up. Please look below.
As to the question of what would you do – I realize that isn’t a fair debate… but it wasn’t fair to insist I enlist or therefore gag myself of any opinion on this war/military.
no. that’s not fair. I think both sides here are not being fair. But, the end result should be greater understanding of the complexities.
Yes, calling people “rotten to the core human beings” and “lizard brains” and telling them to fuck off and everything in between is hunky dory with you.
Good to know.
I wouldn’t let my friends or community be abused repeatedly in this manner, but hey it’s not my site.
I reinstate my leaving from Tracy’s deleted diary. It’s obviously just so much hypocritical bullshit.
The new site rules:
“Don’t be a prick*”
*unless you’re MilitaryTracy
(CookTing says bye too).
my husband. Anybody here have an idea how long it’s going to take us to get all of our soldiers and equipment out of Iraq? Please also keep in mind that as we leave, based on the history of the Iraqi people, we will attacked the whole time we withdraw and we will need to take care of our soldiers then too……any ideas how long that’s going to take? We have to take everything to Kuwait and put it on board ships, probably nine months if move as fast as we can!
and somebody is going to have to show up to work to pull one off too!
Hmm, sorry ’bout this Janet, but I didn’t catch this when you first posted it. I think this comment is over the top. Please do not throw gasoline on a fire.
I do think ‘robot military’ is a personal insult to many military personnel who may be actively struggling to make moral decisions given the double-bind they are in. Putting ‘complicated’ in scare quotes doesn’t diminish the personal complexities many soldiers are experiencing. Many of them are not as well-informed about their options as you would have them be. Some of them may be incapable of anything other than following orders for various reasons. They may have been brainwashed with propaganda. They may not have any education to speak of and don’t know what civil disobedience is. They may feel helplessly and hopelessly stuck because they have no other means of supporting their families, or because they have illnesses in the family to pay for or other extenuating circumstances. These things do not make them un-human and magically turn them into machines. Even in murder convictions we allow the admittance of mitigating factors before determining a sentence. Show some restraint, please. De-humanizing soldiers who take orders is not helping your position, at all.
The comparison to Nazis is totally incendiary and quite ineffective in this context, in my opinion. In fact, de-humanizing those that disagree with you is a well-documented Nazi tactic.
True, and point taken. I was backing into a corner. I apologize.
However I do feel that “just following orders” is a cop out.
The apology is not owed to me specifically, but I recognize your contrition and accept your awareness.
It also a well documented fact that ‘just following orders’ is no defense against a crime committed in the line of military duty. However, I do believe that it is possible to allow for a full range of human behaviors in difficult circumstances. Some will ‘just follow orders’, period. Some will follow orders reluctantly, hesitatingly, under protest, and at great personal cost to their own psyche. Again, my point is that these are human soldiers, fully human beings. Each and every one deserves a fair appraisal of their actions, as does every jay-walker, stop-sign runner, burglar, and murderer.
so, the issue is that you find it misleading to post these supporters’ comments without making clear that they can only speak up because they are no longer on active duty?
Okay. That’s fair. If that is true, maybe it should be reflected in the diary.
I just don’t want hostility on the site.
and the last words that I had with Janet in an open thread a few days back were about why active duty doesn’t speak up and speak out. She ended up fighting with me about why soldiers ought to be risking jail and she also said that the regulations were “quaint”. But those regs aren’t quaint at all, they are very serious regulations that prevent the military from ever exerting it’s own authority in deciding who the leader of our country is…….that is why nobody in uniform can say anything unsavory about the President!
Give me a break!!!
The UCMJ is a broken piece of regs.. I had “quaint” in quotations if I recall correctly because you brought up the UCMJ when we’re talking Geneva Codes, the Law of the Land… the Constitution which the Administration has called what???
“Quaint”
I refuse to be your target, Tracy
I just do not consider you an authority on the UCMJ.
all my diaries removed and I asked to have my comments relabeled because of the soldier hate here. I love you dearly Martin, but you can’t expect an active duty soldier’s wife who has gone through a year deployment in Iraq and battled the PTSD thing and looking at redeployment in October to put up with peace gone wild bullshit. If the crowd that Booman Tribune attracts can’t deal with the reality of the active duty right now then the active duty needs to leave. I have much greater physical and spiritual needs to tend within than to fight with and be embarrassed for sharing soil with people who need so much education on the facts. I am not their teacher right now. I don’t have what is needed to do it Martin and if I’m not going to be able to defend the active duty military here than I want my words removed from here because then they are an embarrassment to me compared with the other things that sometimes get posted here. One would think though that my lack of patience right now might be an indication of how bad things are in the military but does anybody really give a shit other than to blame soldiers right now? Does anybody think that America shouldn’t have a military? NO, just as long as it isn’t them and fuck those stupid assholes in uniform right now!
You couldn’t be more wrong with this comment Tracy, and you couldn’t be more wrong in your broadbrush characterization of the opinions of the people here. I’ve seen you taking swipes now at this community over at Orange to fucking Chamonix of all people. If you’re so embarrased to share soil with us then what the fuck are you doing here? You’ve repeatedly attacked the people here who give a shit about you the most, while people here with differing opinions have bent over ass backwards to try and accomodate your anger and the pain you’re dealing with in your life. But in return all that we get from you is insulting attacks. You have no more right to act this way here than anyone else does. I asked Booman a couple of weeks ago to delete my shit from here because of you and because of the way there was, as I saw it, a double standard in the way you’ve been allowed to trample the whole fucking place. I don’t know of any other person I’ve ever seen here who would be given that same amount of space, including Brinnaine, and still, you keep it up. You say that people here aren’t worthy of your husband’s protection? Fuck that fucking shit. The kind of protection we’re getting that’s being legitimized by the continuation of this war is the kind of protection that’s gonna kill my kids in the long run. Protection? Don’t even go there. Our lives, and the lives of our children are being threatened exponentionally each day that this fucking war goes on. And I’ll tell you what, the first motherfucker that lays a hand on my kid when you get your draft will be a dead motherfucker. Everyone is responsible for it. Including good soldiers who do not protect the Constitution. You want me to stop paying my taxes? Fine. I’ll stop paying them. That’s one thing we still agree on. But don’t tell everyone here that you’re embarassed to share soil with them. Just go.
On second thought,
why don’t you stay. I’ve fucking had it. Thousands and thousands of people are being killed around the world by this military, innocent thousands, and all you want to talk about is your husband, and what a risk it is for him. Everyone in this country is at risk right now and the risk goes higher each time a bullet leaves an American’s rifle, or a missile leaves an American’s helicopter. It’s me who’s ashamed to share soil with anyone who would defend that.
We need your voice here.
Agreed!!!
I am so sorry that a diary of mine was used to divide a community again.
Agreed
Absolutely agree. I have not been participating here much since May but what I have witnessed here is shocking. It also made me go back and take a good hard look at myself. For anyone here that ever got the rath of Leezy spewed upon them I deeply am sorry and regret it. Please everyone, we have lost our country as we know it. We have bigger battles to fight right now. This infighting has got to stop or we will never get rid of the war criminals in office.
The infighting has to stop… there are children dying tonight… due to wars as well as due to the cost of these wars. ((Leezy))
See, that’s what I love about you Aloha, you can ‘say you are sorry’ and btw I have to give you further kudos, for when we first started on this blog, you and I exchanged some words more than once and we did agree to disagree, I am sure no one at that time thought we would..
my husband for what George Bush, Dick Cheney, and Rummy have done. Fuck YOU!
Guess what Tracy?
It isn’t all about you and your husband and your family and your military and your country. You’ve spewed your shit all over this site and your rage has finally broken the last fucking straw on this camel’s back. I’m tired, sick and tired of Tracy being the only one who thinks she has the right say what she thinks here. Your little inside friendship here has served you well and you’ve fucking milked it for all it’s worth. Keep milking.
saw a big old Saint Bernard on television selling cat food. Go figure. I miss my big guy. My house is lonely without him. The middle east is about to descend into total chaos. And friend and telling each other to fuck off and telling me they are leaving the site because they can’t stand the sight of each other.
I’m sorry if you think I’m at fault for not reprimanding Tracy sufficiently for abusing the rules of the site. I thought I was being clear and issuing warnings. But I am guilty of being tolerant of her behavior under the circumstances.
I try to be as open as possible. I’ve tried to reach out and respond to people and to apologize where I have fallen short.
This is all destructive to the community. It’s obvious that I can’t resolve the differences by banning people or by not banning people.
If people are going to leave this community because I am not able to solve this, I am just saddened by it.
We’re in the home stretch now. Kid Oakland is trying to empower this community with his project and we’re ignoring his efforts in this squabbling. I don’t know.
I hope people know that I will be concerned about any member that is suffering. I’m concerned about Anna in Philly who just had surgery. I’m concerned about everyone. I’m trying to administer the site as best I can.
It’s really wrong to say that Tracy’s behavior has been tolerated because of a special relationship. You;ve had some really difficult challenges recently, super, and if you had acted out, I would have tolerated it too.
First of all, I would never abuse any position I had here as a long standing member to treat my friends the way people have been treated here. But if I did, I’d expect no more consideration than anyone else, special challenges or not. Everyone on this site has their own special challenges to deal with, not just me or Tracy. Just that some of us share them more than others do. I did because I felt comfortable doing it here because I thought I was among people who respected my right to do it.
Your tolerance of her hateful speech is admirable between friends but it sure as hell isn’t fair to everyone else who’s voices you say you value. Tracy’s opinions here aren’t the issue. It’s her venomous attacks on those who don’t agree with her that are the issue.
For weeks this shit has been eating at me because I was with her in DC, at Crawford at the same time. Janet was with us. We all copyed names off of the Wall together for scribe and Chocloate ink. Tracy is the one who’s forgotten who it was that stood with her that day.
Some might call that enabling Booman, to tolerate this, to be understanding, where does it end, is there an end, is there such a thing as too far or too much or can this go on forever…is it really the best thing to enable and tolerate, hoping it will stop or go away…It hasn’t and it doesn’t. Is that the best thing for all parties involved, shall we just look away from the view of destruction much like many do in real life. Kind of like the war in Iraq, how will we know when it’s over, what is too long and too much.
If we were all in one room now, would we all tolerate this, would you. I tend to think we would all make a hasty exit.
There are many solutions available to you, I have suggested before have a freaking time out, 2 weeks, 1 mo. whatever, at the first outbreak that cannot be resolved, not months later…civility, order of the day, period, me, or anyone else. There is a total misfiring going on here now, any words spoken are taken as a direct assult on Tracy and her family, that is just not so and I think most reasonable people feel that.
If Super were doing this I would feel the same way, or Shirl or any member of this site. I would not feel it the best thing to reward this behavior, it would do them no good, it does no good. Time out is a time for reflection, if the reflection does not bring about peace then it would seem to require some more action.
You know you should have the ability to block ip addresses, you can turn that on and off. Call it a cooling off period, if that sounds better.
I also want to make that especially clear, I could not condone this were it any of my online friends, not to this extent and not to the vitriol that has been spewed. That is why I have spoken up now and in the past. Sorry that is comes to that.
For what it’s worth BooMan, I appreciate your efforts very much. No one and no place is perfect, but you have done a damn good, if human, job at running this place. I haven’t agreed with everything you have or haven’t done, but I do understand and appreciate your efforts. I do not expect that you and I or anyone else here will always see eye-to-eye on everything. I do think that LOTS of us have cut Tracy a lot of slack. I did, or at least I tried to, by refraining from commenting in the heat of flames. I have come to feel that I should not be so care-less in the future. I don’t want to become the TU police here, but I’m going to try to chime in early and often when personal attacks start, not after I’ve excused them for too long. I value this site more than that.
I, too, have lost pets, some before their time, and I empathize with your loss of our namesake, your blogID namesake. The hurt never goes away, but it does become less immediate over time. Here’s to Boo, I lift my mug to him and to you and to this site.
Thank you.
n/m
I have stated many times that I do not support the attrocities of Haditha, the rape of the 14 yr old girl… etc and etc… I have come to realize that WAR IS RAPE, that WAR IS TERRORISM.
I am not a “soldier hater” I am not a “spitter”.
My protests, vigils, rallies coincide with actions that are with Veteran groups, groups that work tirelessly to improve the active troops lives and ability to come home ALIVE.
This action alert diary how now dissolved into something totally off topic.
because you blame every soldier in uniform for all those things you hate.
accept to judge them all as the “problem”. It’s not the leaders with you or the civilian populations…….it’s the soldiers!
last week I was anti-American… now I’m a soldier hater.
Bush has divided this country. He’s totally won.
I started writing elsewhere so I could share my thoughts and what was going on in my life without hurting anyone here.
Janet said…
Ayways.. what I want to share is that I woke up today (TUE) very ANGRY. At first I thought it stimmed from insult and I started to self flog “how can I be insulted while kids are dying…” But the anger is due growing pains.
I shared in BT that RiverBends recent words of outrage at the attrocities and how she now lays that blame at the feet of troops… cause they are the ones there doing it… has impacted me greatly and … let me paste.
—-
There was an incident at a vigil near a base, regarding Lt. Watada that has cemented, seared her words into me and I think I’m changing because of them. Some might say for the worse.
But a woman got out of her car and was livid, just LIVID because she felt her husband was a hero, he had to go, his duty was to take care of their family. Did we want her children to suffer?
Finally she was escorted… not ARRESTED as we all had been warned for blocking traffic.
But a woman told me this… Even the engineers who drove the trains into the concentration camps had families to look after. Didn’t make any of it right or lessen any of the blame. Nor did it justify it.
And I wonder, more. Are our families more precious? Are our children more worthy of a life…? For me… all children are our children. ALL.
For Bush and Rice… children, ALL children are just pawns, to be used and abused. Even ours. All except their own.
Sorry for rambling.. call it growing pains. I guess.
—-
Growing pains. Some might call it belly button bedazzlement… but I feel a huge, urgent shift in myself coming up.
Last night there was a post between me and another regardint Lt. Watada and the UCMJ. Yes, he broke a law regarding refusing to fight this illegal war. He and Jeff Patterson spout of codes and by lawas and laws of the land, Nuremburg Tribunal all that shit that eludes me. But what woke me up in a fit of anger was that a military wife, a friend, was trying to tell me how it all worked… I fear my response, even done while breathing, while after a wait… may still come off as harsh. But… it’s my perspective.
The law… the military…. the “war”. Don’t tell me how it works.
It doesn’t work. It’s all broken!
I woke up remembering hearing an interview by Susan Smith who is the lawyer for Suzanne Swift the woman who was sexually assaulted, harrassed and intimidated… Anyways she’s from Seattle and this is what she does… military rank rapies. And she says it’s in the 100,000K of rapes.
It’s bad for Watada to speak out that Bush is wrong. That’s what he’s charged with… Speaking out. A charge that hasn’t been done since 1965. But the same military brass look away when it’s own are raped, harrassed, intimidated.
Many in uniform say that Watada is a coward… but entire units look away and remain silent when a 14 yr girl is being raped by one of their own??
I’m angry. For many reasons… but my anger drives me. My angry times lead me to a resolve, a new journey.
Don’t tell me how it works… because it’s broken and I think many who are clinging on to the “support the troops no matter what”… are trying to protect themselves from the sheer nightmare of what they are a part of.
Even the engineer of the trains to death camps could have spoken out… should have spoken out.
I’m sorry but I don’t see how anyone can be a hero in an illegal war.
Do I spit on the troops? Hell, no. That’s hate. But I spit on all wars.
I defy them any justification.
Just following orders = We must support the troops no matter what.
you won’t talk facts with me right here in front of everybody! You are an ex military wife, I know you are. I know you can talk facts too if you want to. It just a matter of whether or not you want to Janet because everybody has already agreed that we have to have a military here in United States. My husband is that right now and he will be most likely when all this shit is over with too. So let us talk facts instead of bullshit.
I write elsewhere because it’s too damn abusive here to do so.
Facts: You brought up the UCMJ.. it’s broken. They toss the UCMJ to arrest people for speaking while denying the Geneva Codes…
The Administration and Military Brass can not pick and choose which laws to follow and which to break.
My being is not just whether or not I was a brat/wife… I’m speaking as a human. A person who is sick and tired of wars and the attrocities that make up war. I’ve had enough of “collateral damage” and “civilian casualties”
Our husbands signed up for this shit…
The children of the world didn’t. Yet they are the biggest losers in this.
That is my stance on things… to stop the killings, stop the wars…
It’s not about wives or husbands… who is in the military or who isn’t.
It’s about stopping the killing.
to hopefully distract arguing facts. Something eye catching and gut wrenching I hope that any real debate can be lost in in an emotional spiraling swirl of lizard brain.
Are you being so abusive, Tracy???
Calling me names.. I don’t deserve any of this. You are attacking people here.. not just me.. But others.
You are making people too afraid to voice their opinions, thoughts here. Not just out of concern for you and your family.. but because they are also afraid of being attacked by you.
This isn’t the real you.
and facts is far more abusive than being called on it Janet!
your family all the best. Especially that little boy of yours.
Take care.
and I would never have put you through any of this Janet because I know that you have better things to do than try to stop people inciting hatred of your husband.
Tracy… that is not what I am doing.
Possibly you are hurting due to your husband’s upcoming deployment and you’re taking it out on several of us. Several who have offered support.
The ones who are inciting a backlas against the ATTROCITIES committed in this “war” are the ones in uniform. The Marines who attack peace activists. The Soldiers who rape little girls. Abu Ghraib, Haditha, recruiters who target disabled students…
“ust following orders” doesn’t cut it anymore. That is not my fault nor is it anything from hatred. It’s from wanting accountability for the war crimes, and and END to this “war” and it’s killing.
have done far worse but we don’t have any recourse there so they just get away with it and now there are even more contractors because there are fewer deployable soldiers with a conscience. Very few soldiers in uniform though have done such things but you really like to focus that magnifying glass on the ones that do hoping to set them all on fire! It’s pretty obvious. You don’t want justice, you want a lynch mob!
is that you are hurting. I’m sorry for that.
I do not support the troops no matter what. No. I can’t and I no longer will. I support bring them home, alive.
I support the end to killing. The troops signed a contract, this is true, and if they aren’t getting the proper support from George W. Bush or the Military Brass… then they are big enough and grwon up enough to SPEAK OUT or doing SOMETHING about it. Rather than fling accusations that civilians have failed them. When it was this very civilian and many others here who did show their support and outrage at the lack of support the troops were getting from the Administration.
They wanted phone cards as they laid in Walter Reed. BOOM.. they got em. They wanted us to sign petitions… BOOM they got their signatures.
It’s high time they speak up, too. And that is what some of us are supporting.
They KNOW that Halliburton is a war profiteer… we all know it. And we all have fought as much as we can against that. Halliburton didn’t rape that little girl while an entire UNIT stood by and guarded the rapist and then remained silent.
It seems to me that the military is more than willing to speak out AGAINST Lt. Watada and Sgt Suzanne Smith… but it will remain quiet when a little girl is RAPED.
These victims didn’t sign up for this… they havent’ any voices… Our men and women in uniform can at least speak up and speak out.
Not just me
You get a 1.
You may think that by invoking this particular rating, I have chosen to take sides on the larger issue here. I have not. I see your dragging your family and the diarist’s family into this discussion immediately and without provocation specific to this diary as an innapropriate attempt to stifle discourse. You are on a personal tirade.
If you would like to debate whether or not the Iraq war is legal, or which legalities are binding to an individual member of the armed forces, or talk about what it feels like as a spouse of a military person to be caught in the middle of such an argument, or any other issue related to the actual content of this diary, please do. Regardless of your position on any issue, I would love to hear it.
I am in total agreement with you Blueneck and I just wanted to say that, this is making everything uncomfortable for readers and I just got a gut wrencing stomach ache reading the above thread.
I am very sorry for this Diane. This was to be about how to support this action and learn more about the illegalities of this occupation.
I’m very glad Diva, your friend, is safe now. Our CodePink friend is making that same journey now as a refugee. She can’t come to the states, though.
Thanks for chiming in. I value your judgment.
conversations between Janet and I concerning the Watada saga.
Your representation et. al of the military and whatever else it is that you are tirading about, is becoming very ‘militaristic’ Tracy, your words should be more embarrassment to you then the words Janet put up, they do not reflect well on you in my opinion. You say you are defending yourself, from what, words of another you do not agree with.
Well, what ever happened to agreeing to disagree Tracy, what is wrong with that. Don’t have your friends read this site if it offends them that free speech is allowed here, differing views are presented. And if this site with it’s free speech doesn’t suit you then start your own and keep the discourse only that which you prefer.
And I have written my final word to you in this regard so don’t come back at me with something for saying what a lot of us are thinking, and hating so much that it has to come to this and trying to find the words to say.
Someone who served during combat for this country? This is the saddest day Diane to watch you wish for me to allow people to misrepresent facts for you so that you can you desired view of the world. Also taking myself down for you. I won’t. You don’t deserve the protections that my husband has ever given you and you don’t deserve any of the sacrifices that I have ever made for you to have to protections either. You are a military abuser. You want them to do for you what you want them to do and when things get rough and bad guys take over you want to kick who is easiest kick. What you think of me matters not at all today! I pity you.
the Marine recruiters and those who spit on peace makers use…
that we don’t deserve what they do for us…
aren’t you busy avoiding recruiters?
You don’t deserve the protections that my husband has ever given you and you don’t deserve any of the sacrifices that I have ever made for you to have to protections either. You are a military abuser.
That’s really over the line Tracy.
Please, take a deep breath. Look at Oui’s penguin pictures, hug your children, have a cool drink. But please, please stop the personal attacks.
The anger hurts you more than it will hurt anyone else. For your own health, please stop.
Take your toys and go home MT, you have totally misrepresented me just like you have all the many others on this site, and I knew you wouldn’t be able to resist doing it to me.. the list is growing.
Simple matter, agree to disagree, you don’t hold all the facts or knowledge cards anymore than anyone else.
Period, end of story.
All I’m doing is pointing out facts….and I do pity you
you don’t want to know because that doesn’t fit your agenda now does it!
The prime directive at BT is “don’t be a prick”. You have continued to choose to ignore that and attack people in a venomous and vitriolic manner, stepping far beyond the accepted standard of discourse. You have continued to chose confrontation and disruption and chosen, instead, to malign anyone who expresses an opinion that differs from yours.
It gives me no pleasure to tell you that, imo, you have alienated those who would be your greatest allies, and consequently, squandered a great deal of good will in the process. You have chosen to be dismissive, demeaning and disruptive, and I will no longer stand by while you attack valued members of this site for positions that you, for whatever reason, view as personal attacks….that is clearly not of the intent of the diary, nor of any of the participants.
I write this in honor of the memory of the respect I once felt for you, and the sadness I feel now reading your interactions. I will rate your comments appropriately. Consider this an open ended explanation for any ratings you may receive now or in the future.
Peace
I am a prick in only that I don’t believe war is legitimate and I want to support war resisters in hopes that others will have a voice.
Please Tracy go and take care of yourself and your loved ones. The people here care about you… you’re pushing them away.
of the land will not keep soldiers from going to jail though Janet.
If I had made the mistake of joining the military, I wouldn’t give a fuck what the law is and would speak out. EVEN IF I would go to jail. And yes, I’m not married and have less concerns in that sense, but I would do it. That doesn’t mean I think everyone that doesn’t do it is evil, but on some level we are all complicit. In fact, we ARE all complicit with what Israel is doing right now because of our government’s support. If I could actually do something to make a statement about that – like the refuseniks – I would. Thank god there are people like Janet trying to do just that.
I stand with you, Diane. Tracy, in my opinion you have hijacked this diary in order to carry on a personal vendetta, and continue to pdsonally attack the character of a diarist with whom you do not agre. Stooping to the level of using terms like “lizard brain” most defionitely fits my defifintion of a “prick”.
You continue to act as if you have the right to control the content of what is posted here by consistantly attacking those you don’t agree with. That is not only prickish behavior, it is bullyish behavior, and I, for one am really sick of it.
Your very real, and most difficult position right now as the wife of an active duty soldier does not give you the right to act this way.
I’ve tried to stay and participate here but facts don’t hold much sway these days on Booman Tribune and that’s fine. I do want all my diaries taken off. I don’t ever want to be affiliated with any of you on here ever again……EVER AGAIN!
I read all of it. You are assuming something which is not true.
I don’t care who started what in the past, I am looking at who started it all over again in the present diary.
Can’t you just disagree with the diary itself and leave it at that? I’m sympathetic to your argument but not your tactics. For the sake of those among us who may be undecided on this topic, it would be a far better use of your energy to support your argument with info and ideas instead of making it into a personal attack on the diarist.
This is my position on every diary that is posted here.
It isn’t just a theory to me. I live this life. To all the rest of you everything is just theories and ideas.
I call bullshit on this. You do not get to tell me that I am experiencing all of this just as “therories and ideas” and get by with it.
or in the direct line of any fire other than words? You have no idea what the military is going through. You just like to pass judgement from on high!
You’re talking to a Gold star family member, Tracy. Watch your mouth.
you are talking to an active duty Army family member scribe so maybe you had better watch your mouth too!
Tracy, please don’t continue with these personal attacks.
I don’t know if you saw my earlier post, but your anger is getting the best of you, and it is hurting you more than anyone else. Please take care of yourself, for your own sake and that of your family.
mouth. I told her she may want to watch hers also……and that’s a personal attack by me?
As I and others have pointed out, yes, you are making personal attacks.
Attacks. Plural.
Please stop doing this. For your own sake.
defending myself the same the Scribe was.
Re: I do love my life (none / 0)
tracy-
please take a break from this. you’re upset and we need to cool things down. there is a good debate to be had here, but not with flames.
Visit the Booman Tribune store
by BooMan on Mon Jul 31st, 2006 at 06:50:34 PM EST
Please, love your life and live your life. My life is different from yours, as is each and every other life on this earth. My life does not give me privilege to denounce yours as being less valid than mine. Likewise, your life does not give you special rights to denounce mine. You have told me that everything is just theories to me, by which you seem to imply that I have no feelings about other people’s lives and that I have no right to have an opinion on something unless I have had the same experience as you. You are wrong on both counts.
and you love your life so much that you have no respect for mine!
tracy-
please take a break from this. you’re upset and we need to cool things down. there is a good debate to be had here, but not with flames.
is not going to go away. It didn’t go away last week or the week before that. It’s here to stay and I need to go because I will never be able to stomach them and they far out number me and they will never be able to stomach me. It isn’t taking a break that I need…..it is a “break away” that I need.
I ask you once again, where have I shown such disrespect as you claim? You have no evidence of any such disrespect. You are making things up as you go along here. Please stop.
Where have I shown disrespect for your life? Asking for civility in human relations disrepects no one.
everything I would upset about this diary, or the prick that Janet herself can be in a passive aggressive way, refusing to acknowledge that your position in all of this can in no way compare to mine….telling me to love my life while Americans and fellow “liberal” bloggers abuse my husband and family……any of that ring a bell?
I do understand why you are upset. You keep assuming things about me that are not true. You do not know everything there is to know about me.
You are also continuing to assume that no one could possibly imagine how you are feeling and we are inadequate according to your specifications and rules. You are focusing on personal attacks and slander instead of using your abilies to convince and win over allies to your position.
that is where you have lost it. Peace Gone Insane runs this site now….they don’t want facts….facts are troublesome things unless they are certain facts, the facts that promote their agenda and fuck the stupid soldiers who are caught in the middle of all of this! As people they don’t count as much as the other people involved.
I can’t speak for anyone else, but I would like to see the facts that you speak of. How about a summary of them here, with a link or two to support your ideas?
You continue to claim that everyone but you is insane. That is not true.
This diary never had a chance. It got turned into a foodfight instead.
I agree.
The troops are sworn to uphold the Constitution of the United States. This war is illegal according to the treaties the US has signed, which make up parts of the Constitution. Any who do not refuse to follow illegal orders are abrogating their oaths to serve the country.
My husband flies with a pilot who is Canadian from the military forces in Canada. He applied for service with the United States after 9/11 and they took him instantly. They will take you right now….today…..please join this instant, this minute, and then refuse to deploy and stand in front of the cameras to make your statement and go to jail. Otherwise please shut the fuck up!
How soon we forget…
Let there be peace and let it begin with me
so does that mean that you took it that I wasn’t apologizing to you? You weren’t exactly wonderful to me either and you said some pretty nasty things too but did you apologize to me? No, I suppose you are above all that, sort of how you are also above military service. You always show up to fight with me spiderleaf. Maybe I ought to take it as a compliment.
If you look at the comment I responded to it was Janet’s. Or am I not allowed to participate in diaries you are now? Get a grip Tracy and look in the mirror.
and I see a woman who is married to a United States soldier in the darkest moments in the nations history that I have ever known. I have woken some mornings full of fear and very unsure of everything! Since I have been born I have never known such times, nor have I known such brave men who fight from the inside of the hypocrisy and stand their ground in such ways as they do now. I don’t think you could do the same. I couldn’t! If I were my husband I would leave now(and he could take a medical if he wanted to) and I would go into that nice quiet remodeling contractor business that he waits for in about four years. He cares about his nation though and he cares about how it is being torn asunder from every point in the spectrum right now and he will not allow them to tear out the ground under his feet. I am that man’s wife and some mornings I’m not sure I cut the mustard but I’m doing my best. You will not tear down my husband though or those like him who are voiceless right now and working far harder to maintain order and peace and everything that was once sacred, you know precious little about most of the old soldiers and some of the new soldiers in this United States military!
calling for a national day of education
This article by The Nation Watada, the War and the Law
Speaks to the claims of “just following orders” and that Bush is the one breaking the law…
That is why this action alert… to possibly alert people that this is NOT a legal war.
right now Janet. It is nothing more than smoke and mirrors until it isn’t. When it isn’t I think you will be absolutely overwhelmed to hear what your military officers really think about everything that is happening. When they are no longer going to jail for stating the obvious they will speak, but they aren’t going to talk if they are going to jail and they have kids to feed. You are out of your mind fucking nuts if you think anything different, but if you insist on thinking something different then you need to go to jail. Please, make that political statement and rob your children of the mother they need right now! Or your husband can do it and you can figure out how to buy groceries and pay the rent or your mortgage. I want to see you put your money where your mouth is Janet! It’s time!
As I said, the engineers to the concentration camps had kids to feed, too.
Doesn’t make any of it right nor justify any of it.
My family does walk it’s talk, Tracy.. and we do so without hurting others. We do so without abusing the very people we care for or stand against.
and killed nobody. Sorry that I have to disappoint you that. Is Paul Hackett also an “engineer” Janet? So that strange little analogy that you wished fit soldiers going to Iraq does not apply, but it once again speaks volumes about who you are and how you desire to distort and inflame and create shitstorms instead of real solutions to anything that is going on right now!
My diary which has been hijacked by your anger and your issues… is about SOLUTIONS
So that maybe other active duty personnel can speak out. Many have spoken out while active. This diary is about supporting them so that others don’t have to be silent. So that other families don’t have to suffer.
This diary is not about YOU or ME. … it’s about how to support those who are resisting the war. It has solutions and actions.
is playing a part in the real solutions, but people who compare our soldiers to the engineers on the way to the concentration camps are not a part of any real solution. And your opinion that all soldiers ought to go to jail instead of deploying to Iraq while you yourself are not willing to make the same sacrifice makes me sick to my stomach like most Americans do lately, spoiled and irresponsible people that they are!
when the only justification for them NOT STANDING UP is that they are remaining silent so as their wives can still go to the Base commissary.
Or has that changed, too?
They were fighting for our “Freedoms”
now they are fighting so they don’t get in trouble for not fighting?
doing that today? Just curious. I have seen Army wives age 10 years in the past 3 years……what in the hell are you talking about?! You really think that anybody that shallow remains standing with any of us right now?
and they are in Iraq this year making $250,000 flying for the contractors now. They aren’t standing with my husband honey!
Veterans For Peace applauds First Lieutenant Watada’s courage to follow his convictions and refuse deployment to Iraq.
Veterans For Peace Executive Director Michael McPhearson states, “The Bush administration continues to put our nation’s service members in harms way for no good reason. Today our troops face the long shadows of Abu Ghraib and now Haditha…
“I understand that many of our troops believe the U.S. occupation to be just and must follow their conscience. Other soldiers, while they do not believe in the war, feel obligated to follow the orders of their leaders or fear the consequences of resisting. However, more and more men and women are coming to the realization that they have the right to follow their conscience to resist this immoral war and are willing to face whatever consequences lay ahead. As a leader and officer, 1LT Watada has an obligation to steward the physical, mental and moral health of his troops. I imagine it has become clear to the LT that his duty to them can not be served by leading them in an endeavor based on deceit and half truths. Veterans For Peace supports the courage of this young man and other service members like him.”
For more information about 1LT Watada, please visit http://www.thankyoult.org . For more information about VFP, please visit http://www.veteransforpeace.org .
Veterans For Peace is a national organization founded in 1985. It is structured around a national office in Saint Louis, MO and comprised of members across the country organized in chapters or as at-large members. The organization includes men and women veterans from World War II, Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War, other conflicts and peacetime veterans. Our collective experience tells us wars are easy to start and hard to stop and that those hurt are often the innocent. Thus, other means of problem solving are necessary.
Lt. Watada and anyone else who refuses to fight in this immoral and illegal war in Iraq deserves the support of all who believe in peace, justice, democracy. As a former officer in the military I know how difficult it is to break away from the mindset of viiolence, war, and obedience, so I applaud his courage.
I recommend for your own sanity that you not feed the trolls.
Tracy is now abusing the troll ratings. She has called people horrendous names and made baseless accusations against members of this community.
You have cut off posting privledges and banned users for far less offenses – starkravinglunaticradical, shadowthief, parker, stupiddy, etc.
She has crossed this line repeatedly the last few weeks, and as your definition is “Repeat offenses” she absolutely qualifies. She is a disgrace to this site.
I have her comments and diaries (the deleted one) saved should you wish for further proof of this (as if this diary weren’t enough).
It’s time to defend your community from this hate speech and attacks.
that I said that you didn’t like and now I’m abusing troll rating. Puulleease!
under what definition of ‘troll’ are you operating?
You call her a troll and she troll rates you in response.
If you have been reading this thread you will see that I have asked Tracy to keep her comments civil.
Are you now demanding that I ban her?
She’s not a troll, she’s a long standing member of this community and admittedly a friend of mine.
I agree that she is behaving inappropriately, but I don’t agree that she doesn’t have valid arguments.
If the community would use the warning rating when it sees a problem, rather than rely on me to moderate everything, it would make my life easier.
I can’t arbitrate everything because I can’t read everything.
I received a troll rating from her. A “0”…
I have, for the first time ever here, given her a “2” a few times here due to the verbal attacks on others. She’s called me a few names, but I can handle that, I’ve been called worse… but I finally had enough when she started attacking Diane and gave her a “2”
I hadn’t seen anything from you at that time.
Is it possible to delete this diary and re do it?
you can repost it. I don’t think Tracy will be in the next thread.
at Booman Tribune asking for a bit of sanity where blaming soldiers is concerned. Everybody else has left because of flame wars. I have a loved one who is risking everything right now too. When people write things that aren’t factual concerning the military it does upset me because it is personal for me, it is my life right now and it is in a very dangerous place these days and I personally don’t feel like I can afford much B.S. or many distortions or lies about it these days.
You are so out of touch on this, or willfully blind its insulting.
I called her a troll because she is acting like a troll. Go read up on the definitions you yourself posted as “troll material” and tell me her fucking insults and name calling and thread hijacking aren’t the very epitome of that behaviour.
You have other ‘well respected members of this community’ telling her she is being troll like and crossing the line repeatedly and yet she is protected.
It’s your site, have at it. I personally don’t need the abuse and lies and misrepresentations in my life and it hurts me to see her attack and denegrate other “valued members of this community”.
Enjoy.
And if we’re talking analogies here Booman, since you set the stage with your Dershowitz comment, how ’bout this one in response to the fucking hate Tracy has been spewing at every single person who doesn’t agree with her…
Your mother has a lizard brain and should go fuck herself and take her fucking non solution rotten to the core self and go join the army before she can talk to me.
Yeah, that’s roses for you right there. Unbelievable hypocritcal bullshit.
do you want my job?
would you like to figure out how to handle a situation like this?
There’s nothing wrong with long-standing members stepping in to enforce the culture of the site.
But asking me to ban someone? We are a community, at least in part, because we are a support to each other.
Did you notice how long I allowed Brinnainne to abuse me and Susan? It was because she was a member of this community, and we hoped that whatever was bothering her could be addressed. In that situation we failed.
There is nothing wrong with the community taking the lead here. But calling her a troll is not correct.
Tracy is upset with extremely good reason that her husband may be forced to make a decision between redeploying and going to jail. Is it so hard to understand that she is sensitive to arguments that suggest he has only one moral option, and that option is jail?
I haven’t placed that decision on her, Booman. In fact I have stated over and over that I know she must be hurting and that this time for her must be tough.
But I will not stop my efforts to stop a war because Tracy is going to lash out at everyone. I will not quit trying to grow in oder to “support the troops no matter what and hold NO ONE accountable”. I’m sorry, I can’t live like that.
Booman, she’s calling everyone names in here… bashing people.. and now I’m a prick…?? Now I’m a passive-agressive abusive poster?? Give me a break.
I even offered to stop writing here so as nto to offend her because I realized she’s very upset and attacking others.
well…this is the challenge that online communities face. Are we going to let this disagreement destroy this community? There is a big difference between the arguments Tracy is making and how she is making them. Most people are sympathetic to her argument but disturbed by her tone. I asked her to take a break, I asked her to try to be more civil. Other members are stepping up to make their own arguments.
Basically, you can enforce civility without asking me to ban someone. It would be heartbreaking to have to ban someone like Tracy because she is upset and disruptive. I don’t think anyone really wants that. We want her to not to have to worry about her family, and to not be in the position she is in.
And I do think, on the merits, that the heart of her argument is completely legitimate.
I ask again, Tracy, that you refrain from incivility and debate in a calm manner. And others should rate comments based on their civility.
I don’t want her banned…. I asked you once if I should not write here. That’s all. Just about everyone here has tip toed around Tracy’s feelings to the point of tip toeing right out of here.
You are her close friend… that’s apparent. Please help her. She’s angry at the rest of the people who wanted to stand with her.
I guess none of us have feelings. I guess the people that were attacked here don’t have feelings.
OK, Booman…I have rated the comments as I saw fit.
Tracy, your comments here have crossed over the line on so many levels. I am not against you or your husband, but I am against this war and I do wish more military would stand up and say Sir, No Sir. I understand that this is an individual choice that must be made by each servicemember and I do not respect your husband any more for choosing to serve.
So, I have downrated many of your more prickish posts and I will continue to do so in the future. Like Blueneck, consider this a blanket statement for all my down ratings. I feel awful about it, but I don’t see any other solution.
Doh…What a fucking typo! I meant, I do not respect your husband any less for choosing to serve. Grrr…I was trying to avoid double negatives and didn’t reread my post before I sent it…Sorry, really.
I’ll go quietly hit my head on the wall now for that…
I’m glad you corrected that typo. Since I’ve recently self-ordained myself as a respect policeman, I’m glad you caught it before I did! I share your amended view. It is my impression that “Mr. Tracy” has considered the alternatives and done his best to make the choice that is right for him and his family. I can’t really know this merely from Tracy’s comments in the past, but I do at least have a feeling that he is one of the good guys in a broken military that needs fixing.
I feel like an ass for making that typo.
Yes, I think this really is a decision only each individual can make. Tracy has said over and over again how her husband tries to make the best of a bad situation and I accept that he is a good person on that word. I know that not all military are bad.
I respect MT’s husband’s choice.
Booman. Are you deaf? Ban me and take down my diaries now please!
yes. I’m deaf. And i’m not deleting diaries anymore. Brinnainne was the last time.
So I will brush my teeth and go to bed now and try to relax.
Booman. You are so lost on this. Everybody who was sympathetic left after Ductapes second to last diary. Don’t you remember your diary about “Thinking about the Military”? You might want to read the comments in that diary and then realize that almost nobody on this site any more is sympathetic to anybody serving right now. I really do think you ought to do what the majority here want you to do and ban me. I only ask that you take my diaries down as well.
I am not the only one who has called her behaviour troll.
I will not be insulted anymore. It’s bullshit and you could have cut off her posting and ratings privledges, like you did Bri, long ago, but you’ve chosen to allow her to continue to personally go after so many posters.
And the community has TRIED Boo. It hasn’t worked. It will not work, this diary is the icing on the cake.
As Susan said to Bri – “Tracy, you really need to get professional help”. Sorry, but it’s true.
Yes, her husband may be deployed soon, but that gives her NO RIGHT to continually attack and insult people here who have done NOTHING to her. It’s hypocritical to allow her to continue like this. It’s been weeks.
For fucks sake, BostonJoe and now DJ are considering not posting (or have stopped) their activist diaries here because of her attacks. Is that what you want your site to be? Militaristic apologists for the war with a smidge of Little Green Footballs thrown in for good measure?
Well, I don’t want any part of it. If she can’t participate as a grown up and dialogue with people she disagrees with she shouldn’t be allowed to post. Recommend and read, sure. But post no. I never said she should be banned, I just said what you had done in VERY similiar situations.
would be quite a blow. Their voices would certainly be missed by me.
what James just said!
Booman, it is not to hard to understand how Tracy feels, she tells us repeatedly.
For the record, I think all through this endless spat, many have tried to reason With her on the basis of her methods, not on her stance. No one even knows what my stance on this issue is as I have never discussed it here as with many of the people who have written to tracy to stop.
So it is all about the method MT is using on this issue as it was with Sally. I do not love or care about Sally any less because I disagreed with her on her method in the previous diary. I had given no stance on that issue either, other than I thought Sally was unreasonable in her expectations on the diary. We did agree to disagree and from my point of view that still stands.
I really dislike being characterized as being anti- soldier or any other anti thing when I have never even given a position.
But the fact remains that MT has been extremely abusive for quite a period of time here and often baits and draws others into her arguments. Look at what she said to me, for what, saying stop. I am a soldier abuser now and have no right to a soldiers protection. Booman that is very outrageous and if another rolled in here and started spouting off like that, there would be a firestorm. And that was relatively mild.
Yeah we all noticed how long you let it go on with Brinnaine and the others, but is that in favor of the site. This is repeated and extended behaviour that many, many have tried to mollify with their words for weeks now, just as we did with Brinnaine and others. Perhaps you missed all of that.
This is bully behaviour and nothing else.
I am not asking you to do anything, I am merely stating my opinion. Whatever you choose to do is your own matter. I know what a difficult position this is for you and I do sympathize with you and everyone, including Tracy. Basically all we want is for her to stop the attacks. We get the point and I don’t think many on this site are anti military, antisoldiers, anti their families, we are maily anti “being abused by another member”.
i want her to stop the attacks too, and have told her that publicly and privately.
That doesn’t mean I disagree with her basic argument. It means that I want her to abide by the standards of the site.
Am I more forgiving because I know her circumstances? Yes. I am. As are a lot of people that have made comments in this thread and others.
Because you are her friend and are sympathetic to her argument you have no problem with Janet, myself, diane, scribe, blueneck, BostonJoe, etc. etc. being called names and abused.
Wow. Amazing.
that’s not fair and that is not what I said.
other than you Booman. You have had your head way way in the sand lately!
Booman asks “Is it so hard to understand that she is sensitive to arguments that suggest he has only one moral option, and that option is jail?”
Of course is very easy to understand that Tracy is sensitive and why, as we ALL have repeatedly told her, over and over and over, along with more support that could be measured. That is NOT what this is about.
This is about a poster continuing to be allowed to use flaming, personal insults, name calling and viscious personal attack on anyone who doesn’t agree totally with her position, and the serious effect this is having on a community blog and its other members.
I can empathize with your difficult position when said poster is also a personal friend, and I am glad I am not in your shoes. Bottom line however, is that you are losing some pretty good writers and commenters because of this ongoing mess.
Yes I most certainly do understand Tracys pain. I just do not believe that gives her permission to verbally abuse the other members of this community, regardless of how much strong feedback (as well as suppoprt) we are giving her as it just goes on and on and on.
It’s your call, Booman. It’s your blog, and your call, as to how you handle this. Personally, I am wondering of your friendship and loyalty to Tracy has clouded your objectivity in this case.
Thank you.
(((((Damnit Janet)))))
There’s been rallies in Ventura, LA and San Diego… 🙂
Since Jody Evans has her office near here, Code Pink is indeed a fixture in Venice, and Los Angeles.
One of my favorite actions, reported to me by my husband, was when Code Pink showed up at the Venice Farmers’ Market to “greet” Jane Harman on one of her infrequent forays to meet her constituents. Before my husband could finish buying some produce and give Ms. Harman his opinion of the illegal Iraq war, she had stormed off “in a huff” (his words) because Code Pink ladies wouldn’t accept her lame answers for not supporting an end to the occupation. His admiration went up another notch.
We were also very impressed with their actions at the LA Auto show, and the 2004 Republican convention.
You gals have guts!
🙂 Guts and lipgloss…
I think that’s what I like about CodePink… they march on about tough issues but they do so in a way that allows others to join in very smoothly and with a sense of levity as well as determination.
I was recently at a rally where I was the only Pink Lady and I at first felt a bit lost because they weren’t hootin’ and hollerin’ it up 🙂 So I had to “show em” it’s okay to holler at each other… “HEY! Your’e Beautiful!!!” that seemed to cause them to smile and hold their signs higher. 🙂
— from the article mentioned above
The Nation Watada the War and the Law
Under military law, soldiers have the right to refuse to carry out illegal orders; in fact, they have a duty not to commit war crimes. According to Article 32 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, Watada retains the right to a preliminary hearing to “present anything he may desire in his own behalf, either in defense or mitigation.” Under Article 46 defendants are allowed at trial to “compel witnesses to appear and testify and to compel the production of other evidence.”
On its face the statute appears to allow a war crimes defense. In practice, however, defenses under international law are often denied, based on the military’s “fundamental necessity for obedience,” a principle affirmed by the Supreme Court in 1974. (Watada maintains he owes obedience to the Constitution–not to officials who are abusing it.)
There are precedents for raising war crimes issues in courts martial. Howard Levy was given a day to present a war crimes defense in 1967. He called three witnesses and provided 4,000 exhibits describing war crimes in Vietnam, but he was ultimately found guilty and sentenced to three years in prison. When Petty Officer Pablo Paredes was court-martialed for refusing to go to Iraq, he was allowed to call an expert witness to make the case that the war was illegal. The military judge who found him guilty gave him a mild sentence with no jail time and astonishingly declared, “Any seaman recruit has a reasonable cause to believe that the wars in Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and Iraq were illegal.”
Anyone who believes in justice should demand that Watada’s court-martial provide him reasonable opportunity to prove the case for US war crimes in Iraq, including the right to subpoena witnesses and government documents. Without such rights, the court-martial will be nothing but a kangaroo court, violating the very national and international norms the Hamdan decision requires the government to respect. The many retired military officers and government officials who have questioned the legality of Bush Administration policies regarding torture and other criminal acts should feel a personal responsibility to lend their support to this officer’s courageous defense of national and international law.
When Ehren Watada refused to deploy to Iraq, he struck a blow against the Iraq War. Bolstered by Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, his case could become a focal point in the effort to restore the rule of law in America, rein in executive power and spark a popular movement to end an unjust and illegal war.
Damnit, Janet,
You’re an excellent diarist and a beautiful person. I’m sure you are an inspiration to many around the world. Please keep sharing your positive messages, your hope, and your clarity of thought with the world. In parting, allow me to pass the happy-ball:
http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2005/7/31/101511/411
US Women’s Army Corp, 1964, 1965, 1966. Sgt E-5 Viet Nam era
That’s me.
This abusive language and personal attacking is absolutely beyond the pale.
I see very clearly both points of view between Janet and Tracy. Janet has a right to her views and her stance as a total Anti-War activist protester. Tracy has a right to her views of her husbands choice and for whatever reasons he has made his choice, and her own personal reasons for supporting the views that she does.
Beyond that for God sake, agree to disagree or shut the f**k up. Tracy you are way out of bounds here. Not because of your husband’s choice, not because of your personal views of what military personnel can or can’t or should or shouldn’t do. But for hijacking this diary and for personal attacks that are based on the PAST as you see it, and the things you read into this diary that I frankly do not see.
I understand how incredibly difficult it is for a person in the military to refuse to be deployed, to refuse to fight, to refuse whatever they might refuse. The concequences are real and punishing both to the service person and their family. Those who think it is a clear cut obvious choice, easily made, or is so glaringly evident that it must be made do not know what they are talking about. The Military environment is about as unreal and totally unrelated to our everyday environment as you can get. You do not understand fully what they are in the midst of.
Janet and any others of you that are totally against war forever and for any reason, I couldn’t agree with you more. That is my stance, that is your stance.
Tracy, you are entitled to your stance and your unrelenting support in whatever way it seems most appropriate to you. Janet you are entitled to your stance and your unrelenting support of it in whatever way it seems most appropriate to you.
What none of us is entitled to is this constant bickering and bating and name calling that is serving no purpose for either cause. STOP IT! Stop it now. In our lives we have very little that we can actually control, but there is one thing we not only can control but it is our responsibility to control, that is our OWN BEHAVIOR and REACTIONS.
If this site is continually going to be a place of name calling, disrespectful behavior, personal attacks and the vacating of all reasoned and legitimate discussion, then you may count me as one who no longer wishes to participate here.
Discussion means hearing what each has to say, offering your opinion, adding further information. IT IS NOT ABOUT BEING RIGHT OR WRONG. No one is required to respond to any remark any other makes. No one is required to debate with anyone. No one is required to answer questions, however much the rest of us might like to hear the answers. It is not required.
For the most part things read here are just opinions backed up by our personal choice of the available facts (sometimes backed by nothing). It is all just opinion. The vast majority of us are not lawyers or judges. The vast majority of us are not skilled and seasoned debaters. We are opinion offerers, nothing more.
Get over it, or forward my mail.
Shirl
Thank you Shirls!
On that note: I remade this diary into a new thread… for discussion on the topic in the diary.
I am so sorry so many in here were hurt.