I have mixed emotions about Iran. Iran has been a de facto enemy of the United States ever since Ayatollah Khomeini sanctioned the kidnapping of American hostages that were held for 444 days. They fought a proxy war with us throughout the eighties. Many of the stars at Langley, indicating CIA officers killed in the line of duty, were killed by Iran. Their Council of Guardians, who control the government, armed forces, and intelligence agencies, are very bad guys. Imagine a Council of Guardians led by Tim LeHay, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and James Dobson, that could veto any legislation as un-Christian, and even deny liberal Christians the right to run for office. Some of their leaders do subscribe to an eschatological, apocolyptic world view, similar to the Rapture crowd here at home. And they are no friends of Israel and continue to make bellicose insinuations against peace.
However, having said all that, things are not as bad as they can be painted to seem. I doubt Pat Robertson is really a believing Christian at all. I assume he thinks Christians are idiots with deep pockets. The same is probably true of George W. Bush, and pretty much any charlatan that has achieved riches and power through the promotion of 19th Century style religion. Therefore, I don’t think the Iranian leadership has any interest in catapulting armageddon. But you never know.
What I do know is that Iran obtaining a nuclear weapon in not a happy prospect. In fact, it is not a happy prospect for any nation to obtain a nuclear weapon. I am not happy that Pakistan and North Korea have reached a nuclear capability. It’s a terrible threat to life on earth.
The question is, though, what are we willing to do about it? With Iran, we have pursued a reasonable path with the Europeans, in consultation with the Russians and the IAEA. Iran has thumbed their nose at us. It’s another example of how badly Bush has weakened America. I do not enjoy seeing us disrespected in this way. And I do expect Bush to pursue some form of sanctions, if for nothing else, to save face.
However, while Bush has been playing checkers, the Iranians have been playing chess. As we can see from the following:
In addition, the sanctions effort may also be hampered by a report to be issued Thursday by the International Atomic Energy Agency, in which inspectors will describe only slow progress by Iran in enriching uranium.
The report, according to diplomats familiar with its contents, will describe how Iran has resumed producing small amounts of enriched uranium since temporarily stopping in the spring, but has not increased the rate of production.
Furthermore, the report is expected to say that the purity of the uranium enrichment would not be high enough for use in nuclear weapons, but only for power plants. Iran has long insisted that its program is for peaceful purposes only.
This doesn’t tell us anything about what Iran intends to do down the line, but it shows they are outwitting our President. Bush is going to start out calling for “an embargo on the sale of nuclear-related goods to Iran…the freezing of overseas assets and a ban on travel for Iranian officials directly involved in the nuclear program.” He might not get even that.
Things are set up just as they were for the last midterm elections. Bush will go before the United Nations and tell them why a nuclear Iran is an unacceptable threat to world peace. He will essentially say, “This guy wants a nuke and he wants to wipe Israel off the map. Anyone who thinks he should have a nuke is weak on defense.”
The argument will be quite compelling and loudly supported at home by the traditional neo-conservatives like Cheney and Rumsfled, and by the right-wing media like Fox News, the Washington Times, and the New York Post, by the National Review Online types, and even by Democrats like Ed Koch, Alan Dershowitz, and Chuck Schumer.
The counterargument is difficult to make. It’s impossible to make it in a 15 second blurb or commercial. The easiest thing to say is “So, what to plan to do about it?”
Counterprolferation is a worthy goal and it would be nice if China and Russia would back up the rest of the Security Council when they try to enforce counterproliferation through peaceful means. In the end, I think that would make war less likely as well as work as an effective deterrent. But that is not the situation we find ourselves in.
Instead, Iran has been careful to cultivate economic and diplomatic relations with Russia and China, while tying down our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. They’ve also been careful to claim they only have civilian intentions for their nuclear program. They have limited their enrichment to what would be useful for civilian purposes. Their only weak point?
The mystery has been deepened by Iran’s recent restrictions on where international inspectors can roam, and its refusal to allow them to see facilities that Iran has not declared to be related to its nuclear program.
The atomic agency’s report is also expected to detail questions that Iran has failed to answer about suspected nuclear activities that it has declined to show to international inspectors.
Many liberals question what right the United States or the Security Council has to dictate who has nuclear weapons, or why it is okay for Israel to have them and not for Iran. The answer to that lies in power politics and the inherent interest the international community has in non-proliferation. There is a reason that Iran is a signatory to the Non-Proliferation Treaty and also a reason why Israel is not. Until recently, those decisions reflected the self-interests of Iran and Israel. However, things have changed for Iran.
We are now occupying their left and right flank and building bases on their north flank in Azerbaijan. We are openly talking about regime change and hinting at air strikes, possibly involving tactical nuclear weapons. They feel threatened because they are threatened.
And the question for the United States is “what are we going to do about this?” We’ve talked a lot of smack but it doesn’t appear that we can back any of it up. We cannot get the UN Security Council to act in a unified way to deter Iran. We can’t get them to make any concessions. We can’t get them to accept a deal. We don’t have the military strength to invade or effect regime change. We don’t know where all the targets are should we want to destroy their nuclear program from the air. And we are reliant on the good will of Iran sympathizing Shi’a in Iraq for the security of our supply lines there.
At some point it should occur to people just how badly Bush has undermined American power. In the end, that might not be such a bad thing if it teaches us to have more humility and more faith in international organizations and collective security. Unfortunately, it doesn’t appear either party, nor the intelligentsia, have come to terms with the extent of Bush’s failure or the likely consequences.
Bush intends to try a repeat of 2002. He will go to the UN and cry wolf. The UN, this time, will flatly reject his cries. And then he will run on his failure, calling it strength, and daring Democrats to admit America is powerless to overcome his failure and get Iran to back down.
It is going to be ugly.
He may try but the citizens are no longer listening. Problem is the likes of The Hill, The Boxer Short, Balding Biden, ‘Suckup Schumer’ and Ramit Emmanuel are not listening either. They are lost in their little game of political musical chairs never getting their heads out of their asses long enough to realise:
‘We got trouble. Yes, we got trouble right here in River City.’
Global warming…
Hurricane fill-in-the-blank….
Collapse of our military…
But…
As long as we do not, in fact, bomb Iran there is hope for the future. I take exception to you analysis of how ‘bad’ Iran is however. Their interests are not our interests. Contrary to what The Idiot would have you believe however that does NOT make the ‘evil’. It makes them hard to talk to.
That’s why diplomacy was invented. Something The Idiot and Madame SuperTanker have no grasp of.
Don’t buy into any NeoCon talking points.
It’s not smart.
It’s their mullahs that are ‘bad’. The Persian people are wonderful and they deserve a government without a Council of Guardians layered on top. But that should be their problem, not ours.
Don’t we all deserve a government that reflects the goodness in the populace.
It’s not. This is a use of language problem. Why is it that we can’t write in our comments “the fundamentalist-run government of Iran” rather than “Iran,” or “the neocon-run government of the US” instead of the “US?”
Expediency.
I feel and I don’t feel responsible for the actions of the government in Washington. I’m propagandized by the Center and the Left to believe I am a part of this governing process because I can change things if I just put my nose to the grindstone of involvement in the political process, but the reality is that I’m a person with a purpose in life, and I can’t make a dime as a political activist if I’m going to be effective. In other words, I have to work for a living at my chosen profession. I am not a part of my governance because I spend my waking hours struggling through the economy of this country.
Iran, Iran, Iran. What about the people of Iran? Thanks Booman for adding that dimension, reminding us it’s about the people, not just the juvenile bullies that crave leadership.
Indeed. To start a discussion of Iran with the hostage period is absurd. That may indeed be when Americans started paying attention, but for those actually living in Iran, the perspective is much different. If one is unwilling to recognize that Iran was a WRITTEN history that is over 5000 years old, and was the center of science and culture when Europe was in the dark ages, at least start with the invasion of Iran by Britain and USSR during WWII. These two countries (and USSR) have been meddling in Iranian internal affairs for 200 years. And at LEAST make some reference to Shah Pahlavi, and the pro-democracy movement of Prime Minister Dr. Mossadegh, and the CIA coup (Operation Ajax) that assisted the British Intelligence Service in ousting Mossadegh. This was reported on by James Risen in the NY Times in 2000 [http://tinyurl.com/3jg88], and the NY TIMES carries links to the original CIA docs.
In reading the NY Times article you will discover that the coup was led by “Gen. H. Norman Schwarzkopf, the father of the Desert Storm commander”. (Again upon close examination of Desrt Storm one will discover that it appears Saddam was snookered by the U.S. in invading Kuwait, and that the evidence for Saudi Arabia calling on U.S. troops for help was likely based on false satelite photos, hand delivered by Powell and Cheney.
http://tinyurl.com/lmhsj for the Cristian Science Monitor story.
One might also read the wikipedia entry on Mossadegh.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossadegh
In any case, seeing the Iranians as the problem is like seeing the Confederate States of America or South Africa as still being justified to hang on to their vision of using force to exploit people and extract resources. We will get no where as a Nation until we acknowledge, recognize, and atone for our past despicable behavior that has given rise to the legitimate grievances that breed terrorists.
It is not that the Muslims hate out freedom. Quite the opposite. They are tired of the hypocrisy of U.S. and Britain in denying them the freedom, democracy,. and rights to decide their own destiny.
So lets get out of this fantasy world folks, and get a grip on reality.
Forgot to include a reference to Osama. Osama offered (and felt he had proven he could by helping to oust the Russians in Afghanistan) to defend Saudi Arabia aginst Saddam before “Dessert Storm”, and resented Faid selecting the U.S. instead. Of course, Ossama may not have been aware the the King was complicent with the U.S. in sending the Mujaheddin to Afghanistan, lest they continue pressure on him to grant more democracy in Saudi Arabia. And we wonder why Ossama is PISSED, and quibble over whether or not his grievances are legitimate???
“They fought a proxy war with us throughout the eighties”
You’re sorta forgetting the facts here, l’il pilgrim. Saddam Hussien was the US proxy. We were fighting them – and we were giving Saddam chemical weapons whilst Rumsfeld was pumping his hand.
“What I do know is that Iran obtaining a nuclear weapon”
Is this something you “know” or merely something you “believe” or “assume”? There’s a world of difference, because even the IAEA inspectors say they don’t “know” this, and even US intelligence reports to Congress say they don’t “know” this either.
Also, there’s no “mystery” about why Iran won’t allow inspectors to go to places that they legally have no authorization to go – remember, Iran allowed more-than-required inspections for 2 years, and then pulled back from that after such cooperation got them nothing in return.
Once again, give me any proof that we gave Saddam chemical weapons. I’ve never seen any. We gave him satellite intelligence. We gave him some arms, but not much. And we gave Iran arms too. Of course, Iran had an all-American military so they could not have fought at all without our spare parts. That’s a whole other untold story.
But, yes, we were rooting Saddam on and given him help. But the real proxy war went on in Lebanon.
Some links:
Common Dreams
Guardian
Here’s the Money quote for mec from the Guardian story:
We may not have handed ready made US Governemnt certified Chemical munitions to Saddam, but we made it easy for him to acquire the means to build the ones he did use.
Okay, let’s look at that.
Reagan signs an E.O. that we should do whatever is ‘necessary and legal to prevent Iraq from losing the war’. So we start giving them intelligence on Iranian troop movements and arrange for cluster bombs to be delivered so Iraq can deal with Iran’s human wave (child) attacks.
We are aware that they are using some chemical weapons but we don’t block a big shipment of pesticides that could be converted for that purpose (in the last year of the war), and we ship them some biological samples, including Anthrax (which would be almost useless in a munition).
That is evidence that the Reagan administration was indifferent to the use of chemical weapons, not evidence that we provided Iraq with his weapons.
As the article states, the Germans and Brits supplied the bulk of his non-Soviet weapons. I am not a big fan of our decision to take sides in the Iran-Iraq war, but I can understand why we did not want Iran to defeat Iraq. In fact, I don’t understand why this administration didn’t use the same consideration to decline to hand power to the Shi’a by toppling Saddam and setting up a ‘democracy’.
As for the 2003 proposal, do you have a good link for the details on that?
You said: “and we ship them some biological samples, including Anthrax (which would be almost useless in a munition). “
Actually, according to the Congressional Investigations by Riegle and Gonzales, the Anthrax was weapons-grade and was in fact used in Saddam’s weapons program. SO why were we handing out anthrax to Saddam? Was there a sudden anthrax-shortage?
You said: “As the article states, the Germans and Brits supplied the bulk of his non-Soviet weapons”
We don’t have to have handing him US-made weapons to be guilty of arming him – don’t resort to sophistry and denial. When we weren’t arming him directly, we financed his purchases & we encouraged others to sell the stuff to him. Read Teicher’s affidavit (which incidentally was later sealed by the Reagan administration.)
You said: “but I can understand why we did not want Iran to defeat Iraq.”
Considering that IRaq started the war this is a ridiculous statement. So you’re saying it was OK to be complicit in mass murder as long as it served our interests? Do other countries get to exercise that excuse too, or just the US?
As for the 2003 peace proposal see Gareth Porter’s Burnt Offerings article the The American Prospect:
http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewPrint&articleId=11539
Note that Iran has made repeated efforts and compromise offers on the nuclear issue which have been dismissed without any consideration by the US:
SOURCE: David Isenberg, Preparation of the Iranian Battlefield: http://blog.psaonline.org/2006/08/18/preparation-of-the-iranian-battlefield
And also see this:
SOURCE: We in Iran don’t need this quarrel – Int’l Herald Tribune op/ed by Javad Zarif, Iranian ambassador to UN – http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/04/05/opinion/edzarif.php
You are really a sucker for Iranian propaganda while you have a great nose for American.
Within a ‘balanced package’ is a key qualifier there. If you think Iran is truthful in not seeking to obtain a nuclear bomb that is your right and your judgment. I do not believe it for a minute.
That, however, doesn’t mean we should and even can do anything about it that won’t just make matters worse. That is the point of this article.
Why it would be ridiculous for us to hope one side of a war does not lose is not clear to me. The fact of the matter is that we probably encouraged Saddam to invade Iran and hoped that it would lead to the end of the Shi’a revolution there. I haven’t defended that decision and it certainly didn’t work out very well.
You said we were giving Saddam chemical weapons. I said I saw no proof of that. I never said we didn’t give him other conventional weapons or intelligence with which to use chemical weapons. I never said we didn’t know he was using chemical weapons.
And none of this has much relevance anyway. This diary is about how Bush has failed to get Iran to come to the table on his terms, that he has failed to get the UN to go along, and that he does not have the wherewithal to do shit about it. And he is going to use his weakness to bash Democrats that suggest the truth, which is that we cannot prevent Iran from getting the weapons if they want them because we have lost the good will of the world and we don’t have the troops.
You can ‘believe’ whatever you want – some people ‘believe’ in UFOs and Bigfoot.
The fact is that Iran’s proposals match the same proposals that was made by a commission of the IAEA itelf:
SOURCE: Iran needs nuclear energy, not weapons
Le Monde Diplomatique November 2005
http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:Wv7d_FdiMH0J:mondediplo.com/2005/11/02iran
Boo it was revealed by Laurence Wilkerson initially.
Here’s a good summary from American Prospect
More here:
Oh for goodness sakes! This is old news. We armed Iraq directly, we financed indirect weapons purchases, and yes, we gave him chemical-bio weapons material too.
For a start, remember that 1982, Saddam Hussein’s regime was *REMOVED* from the State Dept list of “Terrorist Nations” to ease the transfer of funds and technology to his regime.
And see
And when Saddam was caught using chemical weapon, the US tried to cover it up and shift the blame into Iran
THe UK was involved in this too:
And see this
And this
Also, see National Security Council Staff Member Howard Teicher’s affidavit filed in the Southern District Court of Florida:
ANd see
And see
And also
ANd
Shall I continue?
Wow.
Anthrax is a chemical weapon? Who knew?
Do you have any evidence that Saddam ever used any biological weapons against Iran or the Kurds?
I specifically asked you to provide evidence that the US gave the chemical weapons to Iraq that he used on Iran.
That would be mustard gas, sarin and tabun.
All you give me is a Dow Chemical deal for pesticides in 1988 (the last year of the war) where the Commerce Dept approved the deal even though there were suspicions that some of the product would be converted to chemical weapons.
It is very disturbing that we seemed to be quite content to give him biological agents that could be weaponized, but that was not my point and they never were used on Iran.
You are again resorting to sophistry. First of all, go see the redacted portions of Saddam’s “Full, Final, Comprehensive CW Declaration” – the redacted portions list the companies that provided him with chemicals for his chemical weapons – count how many are American companies.
Next, remember that the whole reason why they could ship anything to Iraq was because the Reagan Administration REMOVED IRaq from the list of terrorist nations so as to permit these transfers.
Next, remember that it was US funding and political cover that allowd Saddam to obtain these and many more items.
Next, remember that the US covered up for Saddam. In fact remember that according to the National Security Archives declassified documents, Rumsfeld was specifically sent to tell Saddam not to take any official complains about chemical weapons too seriously.
Do some of your own research before jumping to conclusions.
I can’t find the list you asked me to go read.
I did find an interesting declassified CIA assessment of Iraq’s intentions after the cease fire in 1988.
Part of it said that Iraq saw the use of chemical weapons as crucial to the successful defense against infantry attack and that they would probably seek to enhance their capabilities. It also said that chemical weapons had worked when all other methods had failed. That probably explains our permissive attitude.
However, I still see next to no evidence that their chemical weapons were supplied by us.
It’s not worth arguing over since it doesn’t make much difference anyway. We certainly did not want Iraq to lose the war and we were willing to assist them to prevent it. If that meant looking the other way, or even giving them chemical weapons, then we were willing to do it.
How is any of this relevant to the issue at hand, which is whether or not the UN through the IAEA and the Security Council will, or will not, do Bush’s bidding?
Sigh. Do I have to do ALL your research for you?
Anyway,
You yourself admitted that Dupont had sent “pesticides” to IRaq. What do you think for? What, suddenly the Reagan administration became oh-so concerned about the state of IRaq’s agriculture that they had to immediately remove Iraq from the list of terrorist nations and ship “pesticides” to Saddam? Also, don’t forget the Bell helicopters that were used to spray the stuff on the Kurds. Is the only evidence you’re willing to accept that Rummy himself handed a vial of Tabun to Saddam and said “Here, go use this on the Iranians”? Would you demand that standard of evidence if the tables were turned and Iran was accused of using chemicals on US troops?
Read some more
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=2766
And
SOURCE: http://www.ips-dc.org/iraq/primer4.htm
It is very much talk about legality and legal rights, but that is not the real issue. The most important factor here is trust and if Iran is not intent on getting nuclear weapons then why not allow IAEA inspections in order to reassure people that their intent is not to acquire nuclear weapons in the first place?
If they keep on playing this game with the Bush administration they will only increase the suspicions of ordinary people and thus help the US administration in their effort to unit people against Iran, it could lead to something even worse. I guess the key factor here is to save face on both sides, what a charade.
Iran HAS allowd IAEA inspections – in fact Iran has allowed MORE inspections that it is legally required – and furthermore Iran has the WORLD’S RECORD in IAEA inspections.
SOURCE: Developments in the Implementation of the NPT Safeguards Agreement in
the Islamic Republic of Iran and Agency Verification of Iran’s Suspension
of Enrichment-related and Reprocessing Activities
Update Brief by the [IAEA] Deputy Director General for Safeguards, 31 January 2006
Yes they have allowed it in the past, but why not allow it now? The IAEA inspections are to be decided by the IAEA as they see fit and not to be decided by the Iranian government.
The past? The date of the report is January 2006, and the sites are under constant IAEA monitoring by cameras anyway – so Iran is abiding by all its duties.
January 2006 IS the past and Iran is denying the IAEA access to their nuclear sites in a critical time, when they have admitted uranium enrichment. Cameras do not tell the full story I am afraid and that is why IAEA, in addition to the cameras, have to rely on on-the-ground inspections.
What the hell are you talking about? Jan 31 2006 is 7 months ago, and during that time Iran’s enrichment facilities are under 24-hour intense surveillance by the IAEA.
Furthermore, Iran has “admitted” to uranium enrichment for many years. In fact, Iran’s plans to start enrichment go back to the to before the revolution. In 1982, Iran officially announced on the radio that they wanted to start enrichment. When Iran TRIED to engage in cooperation with the IAEA on this program the US ILLEGALLY prevented the IAEA from legally assisting Iran.
SOURCE
http://svaradarajan.blogspot.com/2006/08/iran-little-chance-of-nuclear.html
Furthermore, Iran has “admitted” to uranium enrichment for many years.
I am well aware of that, but that is not my point. My point was that in a time when the UN deadline is expiring and the Iranian Uranium enrichment still continuing while they are denying IAEA inspectors access to important enrichment sites, this will further escalate the tension and certainly lead to more drastic measures. If they are that sure of their peaceful intentions why deny the IAEA inspectors access? This is only counterproductive and will not lead to a peaceful nuclear program with the international communities approval, which Iran by the way have admitted to by signing the Non-proliferation treaty.
According to the latest IAEA report Iran has allowed access to the sites that the IAEA is entitled to inspect – and in fact those sites are under 24-hour surveillance. Iran is not under any legal obligation to allow more inspections than that – certainly not when Iran’s rights arent’ being observed in return, and when no amount of inspections can prove a negative anyway. You say its not a legal matter – but why should Iran be the only one that is expected to show flexibility?
Iran was flexible enough to allow those sorts of inspections for 2 years – at sites such as Parchin. And still the IAEA found no evidence of a nuclear weapons program.
In fact the US has made it clear that no amount of inspections will suffice. If you knew anything about this topic, you’d know that the US doesnt’ accuse Iran of HAVING secret nuclear programs now, but of WANTING to or PLANNING TO have them in the future.
That can’t be disproved by any amount of inspections -and the IAEA itself said this clearly when the IAEA report stated that they “can’t see into the future”.
That can’t be disproved by any amount of inspections -and the IAEA itself said this clearly when the IAEA report stated that they “can’t see into the future”.
Well, that is why frequent inspections are needed to at least reduce the suspicions that Iran has another agenda than a peaceful nuclear program. According to IAEA director El-Baradei on Iran embarking on a uranium enrichment programme;
Oh do keep up. You’re quoting something without providing the date.
Iran signed the Additional Protocol in 2003 and even though Iran has not ratified it, Iran agreed to implement it as if it was binding. In Jan 2006, the IAEA reported that Iran had continued to act as if the Additional Protocol was in force. FOr more than 2 years, Iran allow all the snap inspections that the IAEA wanted – and there was still no evidence of a nuclear weapons program found.
“Iran, fearful that the US might subject it to the treatment
given Iraq over that country’s supposed (but non-existent) nuclear weapons
program, has submitted to extraordinary inspections of its facilities by
the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) under an “Additional
Protocol” going far beyond its obligations under the NPT. These
inspections have resulted in repeated findings by the IAEA that Iran is in
“substantial compliance” with its NPT obligations. Granted, the IAEA has
expressed displeasure that some past Iranian nuclear activities were not
disclosed until establishment of the additional protocol, but IAEA chief
Mohammed al-Baradei, even under heavy pressure from the US and UK which
tried to have him removed from his post, has stuck to his conclusions,
receiving a Nobel Peace Prize in recognition of his integrity.”
SOURCE: Counterpunch
Can the Iran Nuke Crisis be Defused?
By DAVID MacMICHAEL (Former CIA analyst.) http://www.counterpunch.com/macmichael08312006.html
Oh, by the way, about that Aug 21 article on your link which reports that Iran “turned away inspectors” from a site:
If you had read it carefully and knew something about the matter, you’d know that Iran turned away TWO of the inspectors – as Iran was entitled to do — but the rest of the inspectors were present and continued their job of inspections.
If you want to believe this or not, up to you – bottom line is that you can’t rely on single source to tell you the truth. SHould have learned that already with how the media lied about Iraq.
And in fact the latst report of the IAEA states that
Iran allowd the inspection of that particular site to proceed.
If you had read it carefully and knew something about the matter(…..)
Well, I am not going to comment on that, besides from saying that this kind of arguments are getting you nowhere, but keep up the good work.
Oh, by the way your link seems to site only one source to I believe it is called Iranian “Fars News” website 2006-08-2, a non-biased source indeed.
bottom line is that you can’t rely on single source to tell you the truth. SHould have learned that already with how the media lied about Iraq.
Yes, some people ought to practice what they preach.
Since you are referring to the latest IAEA report all the time, a link to an official site that has the full text would be much obliged.
Well, you can call Fars News biased if you wantand I certainly won’t argue with that< but the bottom line is that the IAEA itself said that its inspectors were in fact allowed to do their inspections.
Look after the whole Iraq thing, yuou can assume that the Western media is 100% honest all the time. The point isn’t to rely on Fars news – the point is that you have to check more than one source before you simply believe and parrot whatever you’re told.
The AP report claimed that anonymous persons had said Iran had “turned away inspectors” – how many of them? All of them or some of them? You didn’t bother asking yourself that, did you?
Look after the whole Iraq thing, yuou can assume that the Western media is 100% honest all the time. The point isn’t to rely on Fars news – the point is that you have to check more than one source before you simply believe and parrot whatever you’re told.
Agreed but it is not really any progress when you are linking to websites that are upholding the same mantra and the same political views.
The AP report claimed that anonymous persons had said Iran had “turned away inspectors” – how many of them? All of them or some of them? You didn’t bother asking yourself that, did you?
Well, no, not really because it is a bit like a court case where both sides are allowed to ostracize the people they think will ruin their case that is what Iran did.
Actually you’re assuming that Iran’s motivations for challenging the inspectors was because they were onto somthing.
The rules allow countries to challenge individual inspectors. For example, if the neutrality of the inspectors is questionable because they’ve starting giving opinions of their own to the media interviews instead of doing their job.
…Also don’t forget that during the Iraq war build-up the US admitted that some of the inspectors were US agents, and that the inspections were in fact spying missions.
Iran has had to very carefully monitor the inspectors by videotaping them to make sure they don’t plant incriminating evidence.
..Also don’t forget that during the Iraq war build-up the US admitted that some of the inspectors were US agents, and that the inspections were in fact spying missions.
And that entitles them to be on the “safe side”? It seems as Iran is convicting before having evidence, isn’t that exactly what they are accusing the UN security council members of doing?
Actually you’re assuming that Iran’s motivations for challenging the inspectors was because they were onto somthing.
No, their motivation could be that they didn’t like what these inspectors reported. In effect meaning that they were to independent in their reporting.
The rules allow countries to challenge individual inspectors. For example, if the neutrality of the inspectors is questionable because they’ve starting giving opinions of their own to the media interviews instead of doing their job.
Yes and that right could easily be abused.
A right is a right is a right, my friend, and can be exercised for good or ill. That is the definition of a right. Freedom of speech in America is often used for bad ends, but it is still the right of persons in America to speak freely.
And simply because you speculate that a right might be abused is no reason to jump to conclusions that it has been abused. Do you have any proof or any multi-sourced information to suggest that they have in fact abused this right?
Yes, that is true, but that is not my point. My point was that Iran exercising this right in no way strengthens its credibility internationally; they only deepen people’s suspicions of their intentions.
And simply because you speculate that a right might be abused is no reason to jump to conclusions that it has been abused. Do you have any proof or any multi-sourced information to suggest that they have in fact abused this right?
No, I haven’t, but as I have said above, it increases the international communities’ suspicions, but then again they do not seem to care, lol. When talking of proof people arguing that Iran hasn’t got any intention of developing nuclear weapons can not prove that either. The IAEA and others in the UN Security Council are not convinced of their peaceful intentions anyway, and frankly neither am I.
This case is about trust and confidence, something there is very little of at the moment.
Without putting the words in Booman’s mouth, I guess what he was referring to was amongst other things Iran’s proxy unit in Lebanon, called Hezbollah and their actions in the early nineteen eighties.
The Hezbollah in the 1980s was figthing off an Israeli invasion of Lebanon. The Hezbollah supposedly attacked and bombed a US MARINE BARRACKS
Since when is attacking an armed, uniformed, foreign force which has come onto your soil 1- “terrorism”? or 2- the fault of Iran?
The suicide attacks of an army barracks is doubious, but could be deemed a military operation, but the kidnapping and killing of civillians, including CIA operatives, are certainly terrorist operations. So is the killing of book publishers around the world. The brutal killing of the Canadian photojournalist Zahra Kazemi is not exactly proof of a government wanting to abide by the Human Rights charter and the rule of law either.
CIA operatives are not civilians
Zahra Kazemi wasn’t killed by Hezbollah.
WHich if of course sad but if you’re so worried about the death of journalists, perhaps you should consider equally the ones who are shot regularly by the US-armed and financed Israelis (who are armed with REAL nuclear, chemical and biological weapons) or the journalists who were intentionally targetted and bombed by the US during the conflict in Serbia:
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/oneill.php?articleid=8161
IF all you have to say is that the Iranain gov’t does bad things, then people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. After all, who armed and financed the Latin American nun-raping death squads who were responsbile for atrocities such as the massacre at El Mazote, Iran? (See http://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/e/elsalvdr/elsalv923.pdf )
CIA operatives ARE civilians they are not categorized as military personnel, but non-combatant government officials with diplomatic immunity (see the Vienna convention).
No, I didn’t say that Zahra Kazemi was killed by Hezbollah;
As far as I know Hezbollah is not a government, but an NGO. Iran on the other hand has its own government.
I don’t deny that the US and many European countries have done much wrong and will continue to do so in the future, but that doesn’t mean that I have to accept the wrong doings of Iran and other countries in the Middle-East. There seems to be plenty of people on different liberal blog’s that are aware of the Western countries wrong doings and for the most part rightly so, but not so many people that parallel to this criticises authoritarian and totalitarian regimes in the Middle-East. I am just trying to balance the debate a bit.
You just complained that the killing of Zahra Kazemi is evidence that Iran doesn’t want to “abide by the Human Rights charter and the rule of law either.”
but now that its clear that the US and Israel and others have done worse, you’re singing another tune!
So why hold Iran to one standard and others to a different standard?
(…..)but now that its clear that the US and Israel and others have done worse, you’re singing another tune!
So why hold Iran to one standard and others to a different standard?
LOL, where do you get the idea that I am condoning wrong doings from both the US and Israel? Yes, I have defended Israel on numerous occasions both here on BT and ET, but I have never condoned, what in my opinion is wrong doings. Have you seen me defend the Qana bombings? or the bombing of the UN posts? NO, you have not! I was defending Israel’s right to self-defence and nothing more nothing less. So I am not holding Iran to one standard while I am admitting others to different standards. That said I have to admit that authoritarian and totalitarian regimes have a especially bad ring in my ears.
Funny because the “authoritarian and totalitarian” regimes in the Mideast are US allies. Iran is not “totalitarian” – even the most right-wing war-mongers in the US admit that.
“Iran’s regime, extremist but not totalitarian…”
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/Production/files/luttwak0506.html
IRan is certainly not a liberal democracy, certainly, but neither is it North Korea, Soviet Union or Chile under Pinochet either. In fact, Iran has been moving toward a democracy, and even the opponents of the regime say that US policies under Bush have HURT the movement towards democracy in Iran.
“The Bush administration should not be seduced by exile groups with no support in Iran. Developing democracy is an internal affair…Instead of backing Iran’s fledgling democratic movement, which would have led to nuclear transparency, the U.S. undercut it by demonizing Iran.”
Shirin Ebadi, LA Times http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-ebadi19jan19,0,5662866.story?coll=la-news-comme
nt-opinions
“Iran is currently the only model of a developing democracy in a predominantly Moslem county in the Middle East and Central Asia. ”
http://www.counterpunch.org/vaseghi1.html
Funny because the “authoritarian and totalitarian” regimes in the Mideast are US allies.
Again I have no need for defending the US policy so it is really no beating a dead horse.
Iran is not “totalitarian” – even the most right-wing war-mongers in the US admit that.
Well maybe you have the need to trust “the most right-wing warmongerer in the US”, as you call him, since you find it worthwhile linking to him I mean. I don’t. The campaign manager, Mohammed Baghir Nowbakht, of Hashemi Rafsanjani’s camp seems to be disagreeing with your assessments of the Iranian political system.
Even so Iran is not a Totalitarian system according to traditional and the strictest interpretations of the concept, but it certainly adhere to a great many parameters, such as a unified ideology, a hierarchical political structure with the clergy on top of the power pyramid and the notion that Islam and the State are in control over most aspects of society from the economy, the political system to what is taught in schools and how people are allowed to behave in the streets (dress code and acceptable conduct). The society has a high degree of censorship and is controlled by security services and Para-military units like the Revolutionary Guards. In my book that is going a long way on the path to Totalitarianism. That said I have to grant you that the Khatami presidency did a lot of good to the country, but much seems to have been reversed when Ahmadinejad came to power.
Spies are “gov’t officials” who have diplomatic immunity? LOL!!!
What, do they present their credentials as spies to the host nation?
Spies are what Hezbollah call them and something you seem to condone, without any convincing evidence and which they seem to find OK to murder. This people’s official status, something most people and world NGO’s agree upon, are diplomats.
When has intelligence officials automatically been spies? Most intelligence officials are gathering open source information which is perfectly legal and indeed necessary in order to provide as much information as possible to their respective decision makers. By killing intelligence officials they openly admit that they do not abide by international laws.
that’s not exactly accurate.
Most CIA officers are stationed in embassies and given official cover.
But some, like Valerie Plame, are not. She had been a non-offical cover officer. And she had no diplomatic immunity. She could expect to be killed if discovered.
Yes, but I don’t see any contradiction in what you are saying and what I said. There are of course undercover agents also in embassies, but I do not deny that in my comment. On the contrary I said that MOST intelligence officials are gathering open source information, and still stick with that one. Undercover agents are, as you say, non-official and thus do not belong to the diplomatic staff at least not as intelligence officials. Still they are entitled to be treated humanly.
As far as I can recollect William Buckley had an official status in the embassy as Political Officer/ CIA Station Chief in the Beirut embassy and thus had diplomatic cover.
They are given diplomatic “Cover” because if their true status as a SPY Is known then they are not entitled to the benefits of a diplomatic status. If your “cover” status is blown then you can’t expect to be treated a as if the cover still applies.
Buckley was a spy in a war zone in which the US was siding with the invading Israelis. He knew the risks. He shouldn’t have been killed or treated inhumanely, certainly. But no one should be killed or treated inhumanely.
you are right about Buckley, who was tortured to death and an audio tape was sent to Langely. Nice.
And you wonder why the CIA has a hard-on for Iran?
However, saying the US was siding with the Israelis is not exactly accurate. We were there to prevent the different factions from fighting, including the Israelis. If anything, we were seen as siding with the Christians. And we were there by negotiated invitation.
No, you are not correct in that assumption not all intelligence officials with diplomatic status are working as spies. And when your cover is blown you don’t loose your diplomatic status. If that had been the case most “blown” agents with diplomatic status had been sitting in jails all over the world they are not they get expelled.
He shouldn’t have been killed or treated inhumanely, certainly. But no one should be killed or treated inhumanely.
If that is your and Hezbollah’s excuse why then bother having international laws and treaties?
They get expelled as a courtesy but they can be tried and imprisoned – and in this case, there was a war going on. Look I’m not defending Hezbollah, the point is that you can’t hold the Hezbollah to one standard and then the US to another. Do you have any idea how many TOTALLY INNOCENT people have been tortued and “disappeared” by the same CIA that you’re so weepy about?
Well courtesy or not, it functions like an unwritten law and most countries abide by it that is in essence how all laws are functioning, whether they are written or not.
I am not weepy about the CIA at all, what I am saying is that every man or women are entitled to be treated with respect and dignity even if they belong to the enemy, that goes for the CIA too. Killing a man that first of all posed no physical threat to Hezbollah and secondly was under their control is not defendable, in my book, even if a war was going on.
SO now are you saying that he wasnt a spy? What was the CIA station chief doing in Lebanon – taking a vacation? Get real.
No, I am not saying that he was not a spy, that might very well be, but he had diplomatic status and should be treated as such. After all Hezbollah had him in custody an thus posed no threat to them. They were in total control and still they choose to kill him.
The CIA station chief “may have been” a spy? LOL!!
If you’re so concerned about people being killed during interrogation, check this out:
The United States’ “Disappeared”
The CIA’s Long-Term “Ghost Detainees”
A Human Rights Watch Briefing Paper
October 2004
http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/usa/us1004/
I agree that he is not making sense.
The Station Chief is the head spy in country.
Obviously his dipolmatic immunity was false and did not need be honored. Spies know that they may be killed.
I agree that he is not making sense.
The Station Chief is the head spy in country.
Obviously his diplomatic immunity was false and did not need be honoured. Spies know that they may be killed.
Well, it seems of no use getting into the nitty gritty of things, but a last important point to make is the fact that it seems as if Hezbollah kidnapped Buckley without knowing he belonged to the CIA. This was unravelled later and that meant that they were technically abducting a random US diplomat. Still, he was covered by diplomatic immunity. The distinction between intelligence officials that do not have a diplomatic cover and does that are covered by diplomatic immunity wouldn’t make sense if there is no difference in treatment between agents that are covered by diplomatic immunity and those who are not.
Yes and what’s your point?
That’s an astounding comment.
I don’t care whether you call the killing of 241 US and 58 French members of a brokered peacekeeping force peacekeepers ‘terrorism’ or not, I call it ‘not our friends’.
As for whether Iran was behind it, that is the going theory and that would make it their fault.
If you want to play who-did-what-to-whom you’ll be surprised to see that lots of other nations have their own grudges too.
241 US Marines vs. 120,000 Iranians killed as a result of US-backed Iraqi aggression and 298 Iranian CIVILIANS killed when the US Navy shot down an Iranian CIVILIAN airliner INSIDE IRANIAN AIRSPACE then lied about it and tried to cover it up. (http://alt-f4.org/img/seaoflies.html)
Oh lets not forget the fellows who were killed and tortured by the CIA-trained and US backed Iranian secret police under the Shah….
Keep shifting the argument.
First Iran had nothing to do with it, now they were justified and we’ve done worse.
I wish our leaders would read a history book too, but it doesn’t matter why Iran is a threat, they are a threat. Part of the reason they are a threat is because we insist on invading their neighbors and aligning ourselves with the Arab regimes throughout the Gulf and basing there. Part of it is historical, like 1953.
We have a political problem, in that our leadership is pursuing a hardline on Iran and we have a hard job to do to not appear as appeaseniks and soft of security. We can’t win that political battle by saying that all the problems we have with security are of our own making. We don’t have the power to fundamentally change the scope of our policy.
The number of people that are willing to say they don’t care if Iran gets a nuclear bomb is almost as small as the number of people that would vote for them. That’s a problem, because we are about to get into the September rollout of the Republican plan to hold the House and Senate, and they are going to ask all Democrats where they stand.
They aren’t going to be making your arguments. At best, they will say that we are not in a crisis and we have time to deal with the threat.
I didn’t say that Iran ‘had nothing to do with it’ – because to this day the amount of control that Iran has over the Hezbollah is subject to a lot of controversy and spin.
As for who-done-worse, you started, and I merely finished it to its logical conclusion. If you don’t want to go there, don’t start it.
As for Iran being “a threat” — who is a threat to whom? Who has OFFICIALLY declared that nuking Iran and other countries on a first-use basis is part of their declared “Nuclear Posture”? (See http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20060222&articleId=2032 )
Has the president of Iran ever stated that dropping nukes on the USA remains “an option on the table”? Why is it that no one cares about how Bush threatens the entire world, but when Ahmadinejad passes gas, suddenly he’s “Threatening”
because I don’t live in Tehran and my security is what I am most concerned with.
Until you understand that, you won’t win many elections.
The vast majority of Americans are unconcerned with any double standards. They want to know that our enemies (and Iran certainly qualifies, although I hope we might change that in the future) are not getting nuclear weapons and consorting with terrorists.
If you don’t think it is a hard sell to tell the American people that we can’t stop Iran if they want to go that route, then you are unfamiliar with this electorate.
So in short you’ve simply decided that Iran is a “threat” and that’s all there is to it. Well I’m not going to bother arguing against a “belief” since there’s no point – people can believe a lot of things even in the face of all the contrary facts – like that fact that Iran has repeatedly tried to reach an accomodation with the US but has been spurned (the 2003 offer?)
Anyway, its very nice that you’re worried about your own security – but some of us care a little bit more about the rest of humanity too. And I’m not sure how simply swallowing whatever we’re told about Iran’s “nuclear threat” really even helps even YOUR security. Are you any more secure today as a result of the invasion of Iraq?
Boo, I have mixed feelings about Iran also, but then I remember that it was the Bush administration that ignored their peace offering in the Summer of 2003 when a deal could have been struck that would have helped the security of Israel and the US. Everything was on the table then: the nuke program, assistance against Al Qaeda (which is a Sunni group after all), reining in Hezbollah, etc.
After I remember that, all I can think of is that our leaders are not only criminals, but they are criminally stupid as well.
well said Steven.
And all of this talk about the US and Iran and no mention of installing the Shah and how we earned their hatred with that one. Does anyone not think that half the population still remembers that regime and the rest have been told the stories endlessly, of the torture that was done by us indirectly by ‘our boy’ that we placed there?
Then we need to also mention that Iran was moving toward ousting those we don’t like in power until Bush played right into those hands by his elective war on Iraq.
America fucks up repeated with Iran and we’re about to do it yet again.
I’m more than half convinced that our opposition to Iran during the runup to the Iranian elections was designed to assist the more radical candidates at the expense of the more moderate. Just as bin Laden’s October surprise allegedly helped Bush, the Bush admin’s statements about the lousy election Iran was holding benefited Ahmanejehad.
And Iran still has moves to make and cards left to play . . .
Suppose that when the US asks for sanctions against Iran that the Iranians (with more than a couple co-sponsors) ask for sanctions against the US for sale of nuclear technology to India, Israel and Pakistan . . . all clear violations of the non-proliferation treaty to which the US is signatory. It would be not-hard-at-all to argue that is a more pressing matter that must be dealt with before addressing the rather trivial “charges” against Iran . . .
No no, see, according to our Ambassador to the United Nations, international law and treaties don’t actually apply to the US. Only to everyone else…
See http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/972
Not to mention that Iran knows how to play cards. It also knows what card game is being played. While they don`t have to resort to cheating, they realize the game is being played against a known cheater & an extremely incompetent bluffer.
I`m afraid that after the bombing of the low grade processing plants, the killing of another batch of brown skins, we`ll see a monkey looking under tables trying to find weapons grade material that did not exist, while the tuxedo garbed group yuks it up. HAHAHAHAHHAAHA.
THIS IS NOT FUNNY
And only then will we be told that it was really about regime change. Maybe regime change should start at home.
Agree with much of your essay, particularly the “going to be ugly” conclusion. The US is playing a high-stakes game with a terrible hand & Iran seems intent on calling our bluff. It won’t be pretty.
The balance of power is shifting very quickly in the world but America (& Israel) is in a state of denial. The neocon strategists still believe America to be the god-like omnipotent superpower. This delusion does not bode well for any kind of diplomatic solution. The obvious hypocrisy of US/Israeli policies regarding nuclear proliferation give us little credibility in the world. We are seen, rightfully so, as rogue nations that continue to threaten world stability.
We know so little about the cultures of countries we call “evil”. The “terrorist” label is applied to virtually anyone who challenges our view of our own supremacy. Unlike the near-miss of nuclear annihilation during the Cold War, today we have no one in power with the wisdom to try to avert this catastrophe. All we have is swagger & braggadaccio wrapped up in a God-complex.
As you said, it’s going to be ugly.
The conservative revolution in America (election of Ronnie Reagan)all really began because of Iranian actions that embarrassed Democratic America under Jimmy Carter. Therefore, any liberals supporting Iran should keep this little favor Iran did for us in mind. Furthermore. America hates Iran for these hostage actions back then, and it would be political, suicide to support Iran even if Iran has some merit to their arguments.
Dems and liberals must tread carefully when dealing with the Iranian issue (as well as with the Israeli security issue) less Iran slit our throats politically AGAIN!!
Iran is within it’s rights as a sovereign nation and signatory to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Agreement to enrich uranium for civilian use. NO ONE has been able to show that they’ve been doing anything BUT that. They have complied w/ the required inspection regimes. Note that this is so while two of the US’ allies in the region, Israel & Pakistan, both refuse proper inspections, are both notorious proliferators of nuclear technology and are both NON signers to the Non-Proliferation Agreement.
Quit swallowing the propaganda Booman & friends. It’s not good for you. I can’t believe how many people are falling for the same kinds of lies and BS that got us into the Iraq debacle. Of course, coming from people who support the war pigs running the “leadership” of the Democratic Party in Congress, I guess I shouldn’t be suprised. Will it take millions of deaths due to the blast effects and firestorms from Bush’s nuking of Iran before you wake up?
Oh, and go Hass, well done, though confronting those brainwashed by a generation or more of Military-Industrial complex driven propaganda with FACTS is much akin to banging your head against the wall. Americans are, if nothing else, remarkably prone to fantastical thinking and the simple-minded submission to voices of what passes for authority in this country. Good on you for making the attempt.
Let me ask you a rhetorical question. If you knew at the 100% level that supporting current Iranian political administrations and views would prevent you from ever winning an American election, would that fact alone change your strategy. I’m curious about how inevitable your desire for losing American elections really is!
I refuse to bow to fake either/or’s …
I have more faith in people than the rest of you do, apparently. I have faith that we’d rather act like civilized members of the world community than superstitious and bigoted bullies acting out of fear. Only 50 years ago the American electorate was able to back more rational policies when we actually weren’t led by corporate war-mongering hacks, but rather by well-educated statesmen.
I agree w/ the Bushies on one thing … we create our futures. We need to start making better futures for ourselves.
Good comment & one that I wholeheartedly agree with.
Just because your name has “Madman” in it, one should never assume a lack of critical thought on your part. Nice of you to speak well of Hass also. I very much agree with his take & knowledge of the situation.
“Ayatollah Khomeini sanctioned the kidnapping of American hostages that were held for 444 days.”
He did this because Bushel the First (in a secret meeting in Paris) promised to sell him weapons and knew that the U.S. media could be depended on to sensationalize it in a way that would help the oil barons get Jimmy Carter out of the WH. JC was a very good president and would have gained a second term if not for this evil plot that eventually played out as the Iran-Contra scandal. Any questions?
Tie a yellow ribbon around any idiot who can’t see through this bloodless corporate coup of our democracy.
I find Booman’s focus is too much on Iran and its possible bad or reckless intentions. Booman’s unwillingness to keep the focus on the real power players makes me feel uncomfortable. He his were the propaganda machine wants us all to be: looking at Iran, shaking our heads and forgetting about everything else. For a different perspective may I suggest that Booman turns 180 degrees away from the masses for a little while. This is what he might see:
So they want military confrontation. Why? And who is they?
And there it goes…there is Israel again as the boogie man…can’t go there…better we turn around again and focus on Iran…
1953 the pan-Arab nationalist, who were overwhelmingly secular and favored education and modernity, had an ally in the elected leader of Iran, Mohammad Mossadegh.
The US overthrew his government and placed the Shah of Iran in charge. Under the Shah, the US encouraged development of nuclear power. The secret police were so effective at the desctruction of traditional civil society, that eventually the opposition consisted only of those who organized under religious leadership.
The people of Iran and America have never been enemies. But the American government has been the enemy of the Iranian people for a long time. Now the Iranian government is the enemy of the American government and the American people. But that was not always and need not be the case.
I’m not sure that the gov’t of Iran is the enemy of the American people.
In fact I think diving the world into “enemies” and “friends” is too simplistic. The US and Iran have gotten along quite well on a number of issues in which they’ve had common interests – which is basically the same way that other nations relate to each other.
This simplistic pushing of Iran and the US as “enemies” is largely the work of the IsraeliCons who dont’ want to see the US and Iran start to get along.