It depends on interpretation but there are roughly 193 countries in the world. For most people there is little more interest in Tajikistan than there is in Liechtenstein. There are Americans from all over the world and we have large Armenian, Polish, Vietnamese, and other expatriot communities. But of all the countries of the world Israel has the biggest impact on our nation.
We’re all familiar with the reasons why this is the case. Israel is interesting as the setting for both the Old and New Testaments, we have a very large and influential Jewish community (and a growing Muslim one), and an enormous evangelical Christian community. Israel is and has been a major ally of the United States. For all these reasons, Israel is both more interesting and more controversial than Myanmar or Mozambique.
No one is more aware of and interested in Israel than American Jews. The most pro and the most anti-Israel people I know are Jewish. You cannot accurately prejudge someone’s attitude toward Israel merely by knowing that they are Jewish. And even if someone is very concerned about Israel’s welfare, they may have diametrically opposed ideas about what will best secure Israel’s welfare. Even political party is a poor indicator. Russ Feingold and Edward Koch are both Jewish, they are both Democrats, they both want a safe and prosperous Israel, but they have tremendous differences on how to accomplish that goal.
So, I want everyone to take the following information with a grain of salt. Just because someone is Jewish doesn’t mean they agree with William Kristol, Charles Krauthammer, and Joe Lieberman about what is best for Israel and what is best for the United States. But, I find it extremely interesting to look at the religious makeup of new House International Relations Committee. There are 23 Democrats on the committee. I will list their them by seniority and I will indicate their faith and place of birth.
CHAIRMAN Rep. Tom Lantos (DEM-CA-12th) Jewish, Budapest, Hungary
Rep. Howard Berman (DEM-CA-28th) Jewish, Los Angeles, CA
Rep. Gary Ackerman (DEM-NY-5th) Jewish, Brooklyn, NY
Del. Eni Faleomavaega (DEM-AS-At-Large) Mormon, Vailoatai Village, American Samoa
Rep. Donald Payne (DEM-NJ-10th) Baptist, Newark, NJ
Rep. Brad Sherman (DEM-CA-27th) Jewish, Los Angeles, CA
Rep. Robert Wexler (DEM-FL-19th) Jewish, Queens, NY
Rep. Eliot Engel (DEM-NY-17th) Jewish, Bronx, NY
Rep. William Delahunt (DEM-MA-10th) Catholic, Quincy, MA
Rep. Gregory Meeks (DEM-NY-6th) Baptist, East Harlem, NY
Rep. Barbara Lee (DEM-CA-9th) Not stated, El Paso, TX
Rep. Joseph Crowley (DEM-NY-7th) Catholic, New York, NY
Rep. Earl Blumenauer (DEM-OR-3rd) Not stated, Portland, OR
Rep. Shelley Berkley (DEM-NV-1st) Jewish, New York, NY
Rep. Grace Napolitano (DEM-CA-38th) Catholic, Brownsville, TX
Rep. Adam Schiff (DEM-CA-29th) Jewish, Framingham, MA
Rep. Diane Watson (DEM-CA-33rd) Catholic, Los Angeles, CA
Rep. Adam Smith (DEM-WA-9th) Christian, Washington, DC
Rep. Betty McCollum (DEM-MN-4th)Catholic, Minneapolis, MN
Rep. Ben Chandler (DEM-KY-6th)Presbyterian, Versailles, KY
Rep. Dennis Cardoza (DEM-CA-18th) Catholic, Merced, CA
Rep. Russ Carnahan (DEM-MO-3rd) Methodist, Colombia, MO
The top three Democrats on the committee are Jewish and six of the top eight Democrats on the committee are Jewish. I don’t want anyone to draw overly broad conclusions from these facts. I just want people to understand that Jewish-Americans have tremendous influence over our foreign policy even, or especially, with Democrats in control of the House of Representatives.
This is not some kind of anomaly. This is one of many ways that Jewish-Americans work to assure the continued good relations between America and Israel. And, in itself, this is not a bad thing. However, I think we would find extremely odd if six of the top ranking members of this committee were Mormons. According to the Jewish Virtual Library there is not that much difference in the Jewish and Mormon populations. As of 2000, they report that Jews made up 2.2% of the population compared to 1.5% for Mormons.
I don’t want this information to be misinterpreted. Whether someone is interested in Israel because they a Jew, a Muslim, or a Christian biblical scholar, the more they know the more informed their opinions about policy are likely to be.
But, we must be aware that our abilities to forge an independent policy on Israel are distorted if any one interested party has undue influence. It appears that, in the House anyway, the policy setters are heavily weighted toward a pro-Israel view. I hope that their expertise can help us find solutions. I hope they understand that we can best help secure Israel’s future by rejecting neo-conservatism and returning to the hard work of diplomacy favored by Bill Clinton.
While the influence of Israel in US foreign policy is undeniably great, and an important and difficult topic of discussion, I’m not sure if listing the religious affiliation of the committee is trivial. Some jews are radical zionists, others see themselves as unrelated to Israel, thus basically indifferent… On the other hand, it makes sense that US jews would be more interested in foreign policy, and thus more likely to populate the committee…
The United States should have some sort of “High Standards Act” whereby it could only give military aid to countries with impeccable human rights records. It could have prevented the rise of Saddam and Osama… it could help the Israel situation
It is a difficult and complicated conversation.
However, I do not think the makeup of the committee is trivial. I think it is very important. If for no other reason, it is important to understand because the committee is very likely to have a view of U.S.-Israel relations that is quite a bit different than the view of the party, the Congress, and the country at large.
We are better informed if we understand that.
I guess what made me uncomfortable is that the listing makes it seem like all the jewish members of the committee are part of a lobby or voting block. But you’re right, Washington sees Israel differently (and more prominently, than most of the US.
It makes me uncomfortable too, which I why I wrote all those caveats. I know this information can be misused by bigots. But it is just raw information, and I think it is significant.
more important than their religious affiliation would be a compiliation of the statements they have made. You might find a Catholic there is more rabidly pro-Israeli than some of the Jews.
I appreciate what you are trying to do here, and I think you’d be more persuasive on your point if you were able to call them out on specific points rather than a professed affiliation which may or may not be representative of how they vote.
If you look at the voting records at Project Vote Smart, the Jewish members of the committee really do seem to vote much more hardline “pro-Israel” than the non-Jewish.
Based on the criterion that “a just, comprehensive, and lasting peace in Palestine and Israel is attainable through negotiations based on international law and the implementation of relevant United Nations (UN) resolutions. We believe that as Jews outside of Israel, we have both a right and obligation to speak out in favor of an Israel that pursues peaceful, ethical, just, and democratic policies…”
and where -10 shows a voting record least in line with that criterion and a +10 most in tune with it, the Jewish members would score an average -7, with none doing better than -5. The rest average a still-sucky -2.5, but that is a significant difference.
You might have saved yourself some grief if you had included a more objective measure of pro-israelness, like voting records, not just religious affiliation.
As Robert Fisk pointed out when he wrote about how the Israeli press would comment approvingly on the fact that President Clinton’s “peace envoys” during the Oslo years were all Jewish Americans: the fact that Clinton’s “honest brokers” are Jewish is nobody’s business; the fact that he recruits them from AIPAC surely is.
thank you for finding that diane.
I note that Lantos has a rating of -9. The only member in the House or Senate to reach that level.
Utah has a population of a little over 2 million.
It has 3 seats in Congress. 62% of Utah’s population is
Mormon.
The Jews you cite on the International Relations Committee all come from high population areas with many representatives.
If most of America’s Jewish population was in Wyoming, there would be a lot less of them in Congress too.
can you clarify what you are saying?
few Congressional seats.
yeah, I get that. But I wasn’t questioning why there are so many Jewish representatives. I was noting that the House International Relations committee has a heavy Jewish-American component, far in excess of their population in the nation as a whole.
I would agree that Mormons are underrepresnted. But I don’t see how this makes my point specious.
You’re saying powerful congressmen come from highly populated areas?
I was thinking, also, that while jews are about two percent of the population, they probably have more elect representatives than blacks (11% pop) or latinos (12%pop). I may be wrong about this.
to take this on.
But, some important qualifiers:
The Israel of today and the United States, in terms of power, are composed of European immigrants. The Ashkenazim trump the Sephardim, as far as holding power in Israel. (I haven’t czeched recently, but this has been my general understanding throughout many years, correct me if things have changed)
Europeans generally take a more critical look at Israel than do Americans.
Another commonality the US shares with Israel (and this one is troubling, because in more recent times I sometime wonder if both nations are slipping in this area): despite both nations flaws, there still can be voices that criticize those flaws. I’m thinking of the strident criticism of Israel by both Israelis and American Jews about the massacre in the Shatila refugee camps–Thomas Friedman included.
What other governments in the Mideast have suppressed in terms of criticising their countries actions and policies, I have mostly had a feeling that I could trust to hear a level of dissent from Israelis and, also American Jews.
I do not believe that every other country in the Mideast does not have dissenters agaisnt their various governments–much more than we know, likely. But because of the different systems and governing traditions, I don’t have have an empirical experience that tells me–just to take an example–that I can easily find a core of Palestinians who abhor suicide bombings. Certainly over the years I hear such voices, and maybe my inability to find them is a product of where I am in my society.
What pained me the most in recent Israeli history, was the image of those young Israeli girls writing messages on bombs destined for Lebanon. Yes, there are Palestinians who glorify suicide bombers. but considering where the young Israeli girls are coming from in contrast with the Palestinians are coming from, I am more disappointed with the Israeli girls.
Love your children, indeed.
Keep the children out of it, I say to all sides, anywhere. The adults should be concentrating on creating their best possible future.
Can’t remember where I read it today, but it was a defense of Jimmy Carter using the term “apartheid” in the title of his most recent book. Our Dems in congress mostly disasociated themselves from Carter’s book (I wonder if they read it)
I don’t like the I/P subject being “too darned hot” for discussion. And I don’t like knee-jerks on either side.
My hope is that maybe, because the US dropped the ball on I/P diplomacy, that the relevant sides work it out amongst each other. Maybe we’ve been a poison. But still, recalling last year’s declarations from some member of the Iraqi government, that the torture & beheading phenomena were obviously “the work of Jews”, has to give me pause that there is a significant part of the world population that is into “blaming Jews.”, no matter how absurd the context.
Taken from The Jerusalem Post:
So much for lobbyist reform… It didn’t take America’s largest lobbying group, and biggest travel provider to American politicians, long to figure a way around the rules. I wonder how much input lobbyists had in designing those easily circumventable rules? heh
What a minefield of a post this is.
First of all, you are using “pro-Israel” far too loosely as shorthand for all of the worst tendencies of Israel’s hawkish government policies. There are plenty of Israeli Jews who disagree with these policies (for clarity, call them Likudnik policies), just as there are plenty of patriotic Americans who have disagreed with the Bush’s hawkish policies.
Second, it’s wrong and frankly dangerous to assume that being Jewish implies support for Likudnik policies. In fact it’s wrong and dangerous to assume that belonging to any ethnic group predisposes somebody toward anything. As is so often the case, it’s useful to substitute some other ethnic group (say, “Hispanic”) for “Jewish” and consider what you’re saying. Groups are reductionist, people are diverse.
It may be that this committee is stacked toward supporting Likudnik policies, I have no idea. (I hope not, as a Jew who despises such policies.) If these particular congressmen are in fact predisposed that way, that’s what’s worth talking about.
If there is a Likudnik bias on the committee, then I agree it’s wrong if one interested party — the biased party — has undue influence. Without knowing if there’s a bias, talking about the “undue influence” of Jews can’t lead anywhere useful, and historically only leads to really bad places.
it’s as if I put no caveats in the piece.
I read the topic sentences of the post as
The caveats are well stated, especially the 3rd paragraph. But the topic sentence is the hard point, and the caveats are just softeners. Your “interested party” is Jews, who you assume are pro-Israel. If you really believe that there is diversity of opinion among Jews, then what exactly is this interested party interested in, why are our abilities “distorted,” and what’s your point?
I’m really not trying to just shout you down here. My blood boils when I get called anti-semitic for my contempt for the neoconservative fantasy of Arab submission to Israel. So it seems especially unfair to be shown a list of Jews and told that they have an undue pro-Israel influence.
and yet, how could you possibly deny that there is an undue influence? Demographicaly, it seems irrefutable.
Who or what says the influence is “undue”?
What the hell exactly does that mean?
One could just as well argue that Jewish influence like that is mighty damn well “due” based on the character and skills of the politicians.
Really, what do you mean exactly by “undue”?
it means, at its simplest, that the House intenational relations committee is 33% Jewish and 0% Muslim. And the American public is 2% Jewish. Therefore, it is not any kind of a leap to suggest that that committee is not truly representative of the American public at large when it comes to setting policy on Israel.
This is not some conspiracy theory. Think about it like this.
If the chairman and 5 of the next 7 members of the committee were Muslims we would all be wondering what the hell was going on. How the hell did that happen, we would ask. Wouldn’t you think such a committee was biased toward the Palestinians?
If you want to know why there is such a divergence between Europe and America over the Palestinian question, you can begin to understand it by looking at the makeup of our foreign policy makers.
As I said in the text of the diary, just because someone is Jewish doesn’t mean anything. The most anti-Israel people I know are Jewish. At the same time, it looks like a pro-Israel Jew will be chairman of that committee for the next few decades.
This is my hope. That they will use their deep knowledge and their deep concern to make wise choices and not to just procrastinate over making tough choices and, yes, even concessions. The committee could be instumental in making a breakthrough.
It’s not my fault that merely pointing out the makeup of the committee makes people uncomfortable. How many of you knew the makeup was that heavily Jewish-American? Make of it what you will, but use the information responsibly.
Even with all the caveats, I’m a big opponent of labelism of any kind, and your comment here reduces the Jews mentioned here to being on the same page politically, although I am 100% sure that’s not what you intended.
See my comment above. I think there’s a way to make the point you want to make that could not offend anyone, because you would be using facts, not inference, to make it.
the fact I am using here is about numbers, not positions on the issues. But the inference is obvious. If you care to, I am sure you can satisfy the basic legitimacy of the inference, but the numbers are so stark that they speak for themselves.
On another topic, Virgil Goode is in a special category for bigots, but look at the general discomfort of right blogostan with the election of our first Muslim representative. Now, imagine Ellison chairing the International Relations committee, and imagine that 33% of the committee was Muslim, including the number two and three members.
Contemplate that for a while.
Based strictly on demographics, that scenario would make little more sense than our current situation.
I understand the problem with labeling. A far bigger problem is America’s total inability to discuss these issues without charges of anti-Semitism being brought into the conversation.
I don’t suggest for a moment that something should be done about the makeup of the committee. I only want people to understand reality. And the reality is what it is.
Personally, I am pro-Israel. What do I mean by that? I mean I support Israel’s right to exist and want our government to help them negotiate a peace settlement that will let them live in peace. But I think influential groups like AIPAC support policies that undermine Israel’s security.
I don’t care if you’re pro-Israel or pro-Green cheese. That’s not the point.
And you just did it again, in your response.
“the numbers are so stark they speak for themselves.”
They don’t, to me. And I’m not a fan of the way Israel has behaved for quite some time now.
But numbers are not people. People are not numbers. While I think it’s unlikely that the majority would be opposed to the actions of the Israeli government, the only way to make that point it to find out, not to ASSUME, based on sheer numbers.
That’s my beef with this. That continues to be my beef with this. And I hate having a beef with you, because I adore you, what you do here, your writings.
But I think you are shooting your own point in the foot every time you assert the list means something. It can’t, shouldn’t, doesn’t mean anything unless there’s some data to backup what you are trying to say.
It wasn’t my intention to make this into a beef with individual members. But if you want facts, here are some facts.
Shall I go on?
I respectfully submit that you should have started out with this information, and not a list of religious affiliation. The number one of the committee and his probable successor are prowar, prolikud hardliners, and yes that is quite significant, and disturbing. Lantos cannot server for several decades, who is too old and frail, but it is not forgone that we must replace him with Berman.
I do mostly agree with you on this point, although I disagree that it is a “bigger” problem than labelism:
See my comments here to Militarytracy re a similar point. I don’t think we should have to prove our credentials as holocaust sympathizers to have a discussion on Israel. I wish we could discuss issues on their merits.
But isn’t that my point, exactly? I wish we could discuss people on their merits, not on their religious affiliation which may, or may not, fit our expectations of such.
I knew a Christian a while back who was more pro-Israel than most of the Jews I know because he was a fanatic about Bethelem being the birthplace of Jesus, and therefore whatEVER Israel asked for, it should get, no matter the costs, no matter the consequences.
It isn’t about numbers or demographics. These discussions need to be about people, positions, and policies.
Okay, I get it. Good answer.
Eni Faleomavaega has a cool name and was a crew member on the Rainbow Warrior – may the Angel Maroni and the Tagaloa watch over him and may he hammer those sweatshops in the Mariannas.
As for the Jews. We know that they are to blame so why waste any more time on it?
. . .but in fact, it is very cold at night.
1. Once, when my job was installing contemporary art in a museum, I went to pick up several pieces from a woman who lived just outside of Boston. I had to de-install the work from her walls and wrap it for transit.
She was an older woman, probably in her sixties, and her medium was needlepoint with other items. Her work was to be part of a group exhibit, the theme of which escapes me, but perhaps was Memory.
One of her pieces used two yellow felt triangles sewn together, overlapping, one pointed up and the other down, forming a six-pointed star. In the middle was the word, Jude, printed in a font meant to look like Hebrew.
When I saw it, I asked her how she had gotten such a thing: a badge worn by a Jew under nazi control. She told me she had worn it as a girl.
We sat and had tea. It was all we could do.
We sat in silence. Then we talked like old friends who hadn’t seen each other in decades. She told me of her life. She helped me understand why she made art. I tried to help her know me. I wondered if as a little girl, she had ever stood near someone related to me, in ragged clothes, marked with a yellow star, in a ghetto or concentration camp.
2. In museums, when I see shackles used to manacle Africans in transit to American slavery, I wonder if someone has cleaned off all the blood.
good and poignant points.
but maybe we haven’t also heard the stories of others, trapped in their “identities” of being part of a group whose stories might be marginalized?
The world is huge with these stories. Outside the US, outside the Middle East.
‘Scuse me, I’ve got to make a quick call to my brothers at the elders of Zion and tell them to back off for a while.
I was just thinking tonight that I need to make a special effort to tell BooMan how much I admire his indefatigible output. He produces about FIFTY times per week as much solid prose as MSM journalists and pundits. And with better judgment.
It’s incredible. It’s why this blog keeps being on my short list of daily frequent-checks.
That said, I wonder why you did not mention the Holocaust in this essay. I don’t think the effort has much strength at all until you go back and account in addition for the Holocaust at every appropriate place throughout, especially in paragraphs 2 and 3.
This strikes me as a weird oversight.
And now I will read the comments and probably discover that five other people already pointed all of this out! If that happens, I apologize!
After studying all of BooMan’s post, I wish I had skipped the above post. Strange facts. Rather courageous to post.
It`s never too late to wish you hadn`t done something, but still, what was the point before you went to read the comments? I`m curious as to what the holocaust had to do with the diary & in what context should others have mentioned this oversight?
Thanks – I was going to say the same thing. We should be able to discuss Israel and policy without having to bring up the holocaust.
After having lost my whole family in an accident and the scars that remain there for me and how it has even affected my children, we are miles and miles away from being able to leave the holocaust out of any affective discussion about Israel and policy. You can choose to do it, but the people you hope most who will listen to you will not be able to hear you if you don’t care about them, where they come from, or what they have endured and survived.
I hope you didn’t think, as a Real History lover, that 1) I don’t think the holocaust was horrific – it was; 2) that the holocaust is no longer relevant – it will always be relevant.
I just wish that we could discuss facts at hand that are not dependent on the holocaust for context without having to do the obligatory – and therefore meaningless – genuflection to the topic of the holocaust. When that context is necessary, I’ll be one of the first to bring it in. But not everything is related to the holocaust, anymore than all discussion of American foreign policy must necessarily refer to the genocide we conducted against the native americans, or a discussion of Turkey must obligatorially refer to the Armenian holocaust, or any discussion of Indonesia necessitates a discussion of the slaughter at East Timor.
If I’m missing something, please enlighten me. I respect your opinion, MilitaryTracy, so have at it.
I wasn’t coming from a place of flames but a place of generational living, teaching, learning, and how it affects our perceptions and we choose to live. We still have holocaust survivors living though they have become few, their family members though who came after and heard the stories and had to deal with the horrific PTSD of their parents are marked by the holocaust as well deeply. They also note the lack of Aunts, grandparents, cousins…..they feel all of this the more so when around those of us who have such things and they know why they are without and why they have a loneliness within that is only theirs and some of that I do understand. The survival of our DNA is a primal instinct. Even after so much loss I was a very peaceful person within, and before I gave birth to my daughter I was a sworn pacifist. When my daughter’s father was angry with me once though he threatened to hurt our daughter and I had to make immediate plans to leave along with grieving the loss of my peaceful self. I was going to kill him if he touched my daughter again and I knew it like I knew that my heart was about to beat one more time. Tears come to my eyes even now when I think about it. Defending the survival of my own DNA is the most primal ferocious force I have ever encountered in my life. I have no idea what I’m completely capable of under its influence. I did meet it once though and it was the scariest meet up I’ve ever had in my life and it trumps all cards on the table.
I can understand that – it’s so personal, and so primal.
I hope we can all try to live respectfully of each other. I hope we can not assume the worst, but the best of each other until circumstances cause us to change that judgment.
And I’m really glad Booman posted this. My only point in this thread has been that there IS a way to discuss issues such that they do not offend. To believe that people “shouldn’t” be offended isn’t useful in terms of getting a point across.
On a related note, I got an interesting gift this year — a book called Writing to Change the World by Mary Pipher. I’d recommend it to all bloggers. She’s a therapist and a writer, and talks about how to talk to people so they hear what you’re trying to say, how to frame things so you can convince people.
It’s not enough, I have long learned, to have the facts on your side. If you turn off your listeners in some way they won’t get to, or won’t be able to process, your facts.
Real History Lisa,
You said it just right.
Great list~
I have been thinking and talking with my Jewish Stepmother(married to my deceased Irish Catholic father) about just this topic.
We have come to the conclusion that a lot of what Israeli’s government does, has absolutely nothing to do with Judaism, just as what the Bush government does has nothing to do with Christianity.
Israel’s government is acting on the Ideology of Zionism, Just as Bush Government acts on the Ideology of Neo-connism(is that a word?) or its forebearer Straussianism (after Leo Strauss).
It is the IDEOLOGIES that are the problem, not the religions, is the conclusion we arrived at.
Influence & undue influence are indeed things to ponder.
Eight of twenty-three – fully 1/3 of the members of this committee are members of a religion who constitute only 2 in 100 people in the nation. Is it coincidence or concentration of firepower?
If black people are under-represented in Congress, can it be said that Jewish people are over-represented?
Is it bigotry to say so?
How about bringing up Perle, Feith & Wolfowitz? Or Rupert Murdoch? Is it that they are Jewish, or that they are fascistic in the service of Israel? I think it is the latter that I have a problem with.
In earlier days, in England, people would wonder about the loyalty of Catholics – were they loyal to England, or to Rome? Today one might wonder about the loyalty of Jews in America – is their loyalty to the USA or to Israel?
This is a hard question, even a little “Glen Beck”, to ask – but it seems appropriate, especially with respect to people in positions of power & influence. “Can you prove to me, Mr Silverstein, with your $3 billion insurance policy, that you are not the enemy?”
“Israel is and has been a major ally of the United States.”
In my book, an ally is on a reciprocal condition. Australia is more of an ally to the U.S. than Israel, having send troops and fought in the Korean, Vietnam and Iraq Wars. The U.S. has used Israel and Saudi Arabia to offset Soviet influence in Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Iran and in the eighties Afghanistan. After the Iranian revolution, the U.S. and Israel have joined military and intelligence assets to gain advantage as a Middle-East super power. The I/P peace plan has been frozen, but for a short lived joy on the Oslo accords after Gulf War I, as appreciation for Arab support against Saddam Hussein. The crevice between Sunnis and Shias has now been opened through the most stupid act: the invasion and occupation of Saddam’s Iraq. The leading U.S. ‘ally’ promoting (read: use of propaganda) to topple Saddam and to bomb Iran is … ? Simply put: the one doing my dirty work is my slave, not my master.
BTW excellent post BooMan, but you could have broadened the vision to look at all one-sided votes in Congress on any and all I/P issues throughout the Clinton and Bush years. A horrible record of poor vision on foreign relations.
"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."▼ ▼ ▼ MY DIARY
I would prefer to focus on whether the individuals trend toward the likudnik view rather than the religion of these people. I suspect it does given how that American policy toward Israel is a truly bipartisan phenomenon, and I admit that one can’t attribute the democrats support for this view to fundamentalist christians like you can the republicans.
here is the one I fear the worse. Not that he is Jewish or anything about religion. It is the way he talks and how he talks about them that makes me concerned. It is his thinking process that bothers me the most. He could be redneck or something else, he is still the same botherersome person that makes me want to tell him to shut up and sit down, for heavens sake! He is a rat and a rat in the 10th degree. Now lets take a look at who he really is working for and why.
the link for above, sorry
People say the war in Iraq is comparable to the Spanish Civil War, and the war in Iraq, to the larger war against Islamist terrorism, comparable to the Spanish Civil War, to the Second World War …
Fair enough Joe, actually you got the role of players a bit mixed-up: Dictator Franco (fascist) with dictator Saddam (stalinist), that would make the bombing raids on Guernica (Hitler) compare to the destruction of Fallujah (Bush).
You’re right there Joe, fascist neocon cabal with Bush/Cheney allied to Likudniks and Soviet immigrants (Sharansky).
"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."Thanks for the link to Guernica. When I was in Europe a couple of summers ago I got to spent 1/2 hour in the presence of that amazing work. It’s housed in Madrid, and in a side room near the painting, you can see various ‘drafts’ of parts of the painting. It was interesting to see his vision evolve, elevating some elements, changing and eliminating others. He wanted to make a strong anti-war statement and I’d say Picasso succeeded wildly!
Nobody ever accuses me of being an anti-latino bigot when I piss and moan about the crappy taste of high fructose corn syrup used to sweeten my cola (and breakfast cereal, etc.) because a very small group of Americans, of Cuban origin, manage to exert remarkable influence on US policy toward Cuba?
Same difference, nothing nefarious, it just takes good counter organizing to get past monomaniacal issue groups, like the anti-castro loonies, the Likudnik lobby and the NRA. Thank goodness the NRA hasn’t found an ethnic group to hide behind (yet).
an ethnic group to hide behind. It is the white redneck, but they are poorly educated and unable to organize well without bedsheets for some reason…..WHEW!
writings, I really don’t like the comparison though between the numbers of Jewish and Mormon and I don’t like the statement This is one of many ways that Jewish-Americans work to assure the continued good relations between America and Israel. I have many Jewish friends too and my Godfather is Jewish. I also always come from a different perspective than you because I tend to come from the psychological/sociologist perspective. I have also had many Mormon friends too growing up in Wyoming but none of them “stuck” so to speak, we don’t still phone each other on holidays. Mormons are raised to obey and seek the guidance of their authority figure no matter how incompetent that figure may be. They are not raised to challenge anything except those who aren’t Mormon. They are also taught to serve in the military in the United States only because John Smith wanted his followers to have knowledge and maybe even access to any of the arms and weapons that could be used against the Mormon people and maybe to have even “infiltrated” the enemy ranks. Mormons don’t raise children that grow into people who venture out into the world or seek the spotlight. They raise people who spend their extra funds on more canned goods and lined barrels to store water in and they spend their weekends rearranging their doomsday provisions. Jewish people raise their children to aspire and inspire and the American landscape is cluttered with them because we love people who invent, create, and become. They are our Icons. Jewish people are raised with fewer hangups that impede their self actualization. Also, America is made up of the unwanted just as Israel is and on a psychological level we share that with Israel. As Americans it is hard for most of us to understand people who are completely unwilling to assimilate and aid the brutalized and murdered of the world. The hatred of Jewish populations in the Arab world is what created all the lines in the sand that are now called Israel. Nobodys hands in that region are without the stain of blood, lust, power mongering, murder, and hatred. Americas often alignment with Israel isn’t based on some “Jews in Congress” conspiracy though. Jews are in Congress because they aspire to leadership and self actualization. They become doctors, scientists, successful business people, Americas best soldiers heading NATO, actors and creators on a huge scale in comparison to how much of our population is made up of them. Jewish people support and participate in the Democratic Party in order to insure that this Democracy lives on and remains religiously tolerant and a land where people can seek their self actualization without being imprisoned and/or killed for it. They already know what the other side of the equation is like, they lived it and most of them still bear the scars and the lack of extended family to prove it.
I don’t share your dim view of Mormons.
But, more importantly, the ONLY comparison I was making between Jews and Mormons was in their relative size in the United States.
The hatred of Jewish populations in the Arab world is what created all the lines in the sand that are now called Israel.
I recall the British Empire with it’s mandate over Palestine and the United Nations drew those lines in the sand and told the Arabs that is the place where the European Jews, persecuted for centuries, would form their state. The hatred from Arabs was a result, the continued hatred propagated by all sides has led to the occupation since 1967 and suppression of the Palstinian people.
Thank goodness, most criticism of Israeli state policy is voiced by the Jewish population in the U.S. and Europe, and not heard in Congress. BooMan’s point is well taken.
"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."the United Nations drew the lines. As the Jewish population rose the Palestinians began protesting and rioting leading to the United Nations drawing the lines. It didn’t make the hatred better though, it only made it worse. If everyone here can understand how an Iraqi becomes an insurgent after the United States has murdered their DNA, I don’t understand why people here can’t understand that after what Jews endured during the holocaust they have now become people who if you desire to send them to hell will send you there first and not blink an eyelash doing it. Torment makes people crazy and the amount of torment is usually equal to the amount of crazy you are likely to get. Jews aren’t asking anybody any more to allow them to live, they are saying they will live and if you disagree they hope to kill you first.
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Hey, the Germans (Nazi’s, Hitler, SS) were to blame for the deaths of some 60-80 million Europeans. Stalin and Mao added just about a similar amount. We build the European Union after WWII and live in peace with the Germans, France, Brits, Poles and Russians: some 600 million souls. In what biblical age are you living, don’t believe all the bs Washington et al have been propagandizing through the media. Life in the 21th century is about understanding different cultures and getting along with each other. I’m amazed at your interpretation of history. Make love not war.
The Nazi extermination camps truly existed, and were not solely for the European Jews. The Holocaust is a term that came into existence in the 1980’s and has been exploited as a tool in Israeli propaganda. It can not be an excuse for the abuse of human rights of the Palestinian people. Simon Wiesenthal is my hero, some present day advocates from the SW Center are using fascist tools to suppress criticism of Israeli politics.
"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."I know the extermination camps existed and I know they exterminated more than just Jews there. I don’t know that you are understanding where I’m coming from and I’m not throwing any propaganda out there. I don’t come from anything Biblical either, I’m a Buddhist. I’m coming from a psychological perspective that cannot be denied if you hope to ever understand where Israel comes from when it comes to war and death, it seems that many on Booman do not desire to understand Israel and the torture and murder and genocide that is the legacy they live and survive every single day. Most people want it to be done deal and exiled now to the chronicles of history. All Jews have not healed from what was done to them, most have never had a place or space of enough safety and peace to heal in and overcome what many families barely survived. There is a huge vein of sheer survival mode that exists and you can’t just reason it away nor can you fully understand it unless it happened to you or your family I guess, it’s too horrific that we can only pick around the edges of it unless we too have survived the extermination of our own family. You must at least try though or the warring will only continue and there will be no love for anyone. Refusing to understand how these people and their nation has never even been granted the place and space to heal is not in character with make love not war either, it is in character with either you see things through my eyes and accept that that is the way it is or you suck and speak propaganda. A lot of Jews don’t care if you like them or not. They come from a place far removed from caring about such trivial things, they still live in the jungle and they still remember what it was to be hunted and they fight to survive.
I am a descendent of American Indians. So it did happen to my family. Does that mean I get to send you home or not let you vote in the US?
WWII? A factor in processing it is how many generations ago it happened in, and there are Native Americans who do think they should be able to send me home and not let me vote. I also have a native American ancestor, how much Native American do I have to be before I am Native American enough to be Native American and one of the “winners” instead of one of the “losers”. Too much trying to say these people are the “winners” and these people are the “losers” on this site sometimes and not enough understanding of human beings and that we all are one!
I agree with this comment for the most part Tracy. Though I have two (tiny(elephant or brontosaurus)) bones to pick. Besides, picking over bones is a favorite pastime of many on this site, including me.
No matter how many generations have passed since an oppressed people have taken the brunt of the attacks and attempts to eradicate them from the planet, the memory and the fear live on. I hope I might have somehow misinterpreted you when it sounded like you were saying that native americans should be less radical in their desire to “gut” me now that 5 centuries have passed since the genocide against them commenced as opposed to Jews.
The second and larger bone is yor belief (that I share) that we all need to try harder to understand and treat each other as human beings. What I don’t get, and what causes me much confusion and increasing disgust where Israelis are concerned is, in light of their own persecution, one of many many persecuted people down through history, how can they justify the boot the have on the throats of the Palestinians? And why is it that the Israelis consistently ignore and escape (with the veto power of the US) attempts by the United Nations to hold them accountable for human rights violations and illegal military actions against the Palestinians and Lebanese? And why is it that the US spends far more in it’s support of Israel than it does of so many other oppressed and endangered people around the world. Imagine what our money could do in Darfur. In the Sudan. In Ethiopia. The truth is that that are is a very powerful pro Israeli element that holds influence here in our country. In the government. In the financial markets and in the media. It’s a dynamic that has been drawing us into conflicts that we shouldn’t be a part of.
generations do matter for most people. For instance, I couldn’t tell you if any of my Cherokee ancestors were slaughtered, why my great-grandmother chose to marry a white rancher, if she was happy about this or sad about this…….these things are lost to me as she is now and I am emotionally affected by what may or may not have happened in my family story as far as that is concerned. Other people with Native American roots though may have very passionate feelings about what happened, know the names of their dead and how their families felt and may continue to have strong feelings about certain events. From a psychological point of view generations do matter in the healing of such traumas if healing is desired. It seems to me Super that you have more empathy though for Native Americans and what they endured than you do for Jews, and don’t think that Native Americans have never been reduced to murderous rages over what happened to them because they were. Jews have just been more long term successful at them and because of that it seems that they are being held in scorn while those who attempted their own murderous rages for identical reasons are granted sainthood because they failed to vanquish those who wished to destroy them.
We still have Israelis Super who bear their number tattoos. They have PTSD and PTSD doesn’t go away, believe me, I know……further more parents with PTSD can raise children with it as well as they tend to be volatile and even somewhat violent in reliving what was done to them and their children experience up close and personal what someone did to their parents has brought them. Money will not heal Darfur either Super, only force will stop the genocide and I’m so jaded these days about how some soldiers are called murderers on one day but if they did a person’s bidding on another different day they are heroes but both days involve using force, guns, and people getting killed I don’t even care anymore. Murderers, heroes, saints……..it’s all a big game anymore and I’m just another pawn as the human beings that we all are don’t seem to matter, just labeling and justifying from our safe little armchairs of those who are having to live it all.
I don’t have any right to say this to you, but than the israelis have no right to say this to the Palestinians. Haven’t you ever heard of transfer
?
Do you know about the settlers on the West Bank?
but there are no saints in this story, not the Jews and not the Palestinians. Some people say that the Jews should be more giving because they currently have more power. What you don’t understand though is that the Jewish people have been so traumatized they aren’t capable of it and your refusal to acknowledge this helps nothing.
So we should victimize arabs today because Jews were victimized 50 years ago. Where does it end? Many child abusers were abused themselves, does that mean we shouldn’t stop them?
So do victimize Jews for a living or just in your spare time?
The Israelis are not just asking to live. They are demanding to live on land that belongs to the Palestinians, on the West Bank, and they demand that those Palestinians must never have a state or a vote.
then how can you say any land belongs to any ethnicity in reality, how racist can you get when we are the melting pot struggling for ethnic and religious tolerance every single day? So the Jews have no place to be safe even when somebody who was in charge long ago told them that they did? This argument is stupid and moot.
The Israelis are saying it. They are saying the Palestinians have no right to live there, or a right to a state, or citizenship in the Israeli state. Ask the settlers.
Ever heard of the Balfour Declaration of 1917. That preceded the rioting. It made it absolutely clear that Arabs were going to be displaced.
Isn’t Palestine’s real beef with the Brits then? As a Buddhist there is always an opportunity nestled in the middle of every single perceived lemon I have ever received. All the hatred between the radicals on both the Palestinian and the Jewish side shut down a furniture factory on the border that employed Palestinians and Jews alike. Focusing on the radicals only feeds the radicals on both sides, but whether or not you like it or not the Jews were hunted a generation ago and they will gut you faster than our ancestor Apaches on the run if you threaten their lives.
then Israel’s beef should be with the germans.
intent on killing them anymore and once again, they really don’t care about your petty opinions of what they ought to do. They will do what they have to do to survive.
And why is it our job to insure their survival? The truth is that without our support they would’ve ceased as a country, not as a people, a long time ago. So be it. But their influence on us is detrimental to our own survival.
So ethnic cleansing of Palestinians is justified and the only way to insure Jewish survival? I don’t believe that for a second. Remember the Germans thought there society was threatened by the existence of Jews in their country. I think the Palestinians have a beef with being ethnically cleansed, and I empathize with it.
I am friends with just about the only Mormon family in this area. It isn’t a dim view. It is a factual view based on years of knowing and participating in Mormon lives. I suppose that I need to explain more about what I posted about having to obey the authority figure. If you are a practicing Mormon couple experiencing marital problems you can only seek counseling through your church elders. Elders have little or no formal education concerning marital counseling and if this doesn’t end up working for you and you buck the system you risk excommunication. I know you understand a lot about America’s Jewish community but considering where you grew up and continue to live I don’t see how you can have a clear understanding of Mormons or how they live and participate in America’s culture right now, or what their current priorities are. A recent military pilot that we know Todd B has five children and worries a lot about providing the necessary stored provisions for his whole family. When his income went up he spent his money and weekends burying underground water tanks at his home and his brothers home instead of relying on storing barrels of water. This was considered a major major life improvement within his church and among his Mormon peers. I just don’t think you know or understand Mormons very well. I don’t frown on their practices or how they raise their children….it’s just facts Booman not a view. I do frown on how they treat their women.
Many of the heredi jewish communities on the West Bank are known to throw acid on immodest women. It is also a fact that not all jews are enlightened liberals. And it is a fact that not all members of other groups are reactionary cavemen.
than Mormons, just that most Jewish people in America interact much differently within the American culture than Mormons do and that just counting the numbers is a very flawed way of viewing who, why, and how Mormons and Jews hold Congressional offices.
I have lived in Utah and only a minority of schismatic mormans were of the survivalist type you describe. The settlers in the illegal settlements share many of those characteristics including extreme apocalyptism.
college with and was best friends with Mormons during my college years and all I can say to you is bullshit.
“survivalists”, it is part of the basic teachings of their faith and obviously you have some disdain for that and now choose to call them survivalists and scions……nice!
nonpracticing Mormons or Jack Mormons….they don’t tend to parade around that they are Mormons though like say in Congressional races.
I wanted to summarize my thoughts here.
I think Booman has a valid point to make.
I think his choice of using numbers and religious affiliations, no matter the caveats, was not the best way to make his point.
I appreciate that he went back and pulled together quotes that demonstrated his point. Had he led with that, one for each member he felt was going to represent Israeli interests to the detriment of American interests (which I think is the point), I think his argument would have been unassailable.
I’m glad to participate in a forum where people can have such civilized, polite disagreements. I am really impressed by the way people conducted themselves in this thread!
Actually, that was not my point, although I basically agree with it.
My point was about the high percentage of Jewish-Americans on the committee. I intentionally omitted references to their relative degree of Likud-ness, because that wasn’t the point I was trying to make.
I thought I made it clear that Jewish opinions towards Israel are all over the map. It just so happens that the top three Democrats on international relations are fairly right-wing on the Israel scale. That is not an accident. It also is not a conspiracy. It just is.
The result of that fact is that hardliners on Iran will get mucho support out of the House even under a Democratic leader.
And we ought to know that right now, not when it happens.
I’m glad to read this, Booman, because I couldn’t figure out what your point in the original post was. This does clarify and of course you’re right to point it out, though their being Jewish doesn’t have as much to do with their positions vis-a-vis Israel necessarily as the story implies.
Of course it’s not a conspiracy; it’s out in the open. Enormous amounts of money are poured into campaigns to elect pro-Israel legislators. As far as I can tell, Israel and its American loyalists aren’t sneaking around, secretly funneling money into the pockets of politicians. It all comes out in the election finance disclosures.
I wouldn’t even say that the Zionists in Congress are knowingly placing Israel’s interests ahead of America’s interests. Israel and its US lobbying wing have done such a fantastic job of convincing people that the US-Israel alliance is in our interest that despite all evidence to the contrary, few in the US even question it.
There are two things we need to keep in mind, though. First, is it healthy for any foreign government, never mind Israel, to exert so much influence on Congress? And secondly, given that Israel (correctly) views itself as being in the middle of a struggle for its very existence, it is probably safe to assume that Israel will do whatever is necessary to ensure that the US continues to provide the support that it cannot exist without.
Right now, we’re making it easy for them. Aside from the occasional spy scandal, Israel doesn’t have to break any laws to get what it wants. If US policy changes, then Israeli tactics will change as needed.
Think about it from the Israeli perspective. If you knew that your country — your family — faced certain extermination by the implacable foes on all sides, would you hesistate to do whatever was necessary to maintain the patronage of the United States? I sure wouldn’t.
Israel is not our friend. Israel is our dependent. There’s a big difference between the two.
It takes nerve to even write about the over influence of isreal in our government. Rahn Emmanual ( a hard core isreal supporter) made sure that either the war wasn’t an issue, or that the people he recruited would be isreal friendly.
Of any minority, jews are vastly over represented in the senate. There are about 30 out of the 100 senators who are jewish. There are no muslims, one black, one latin and a handful of women.
On the other hand, there are five extremely conservative catholics on the supreme court. Go figure.