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In August 2005 there was a diary here by MilitaryTracy that reignited my desire to get involved and make my disillusionment and disgust with the war in Iraq known in a very public way. She talked about going to Crawford, Texas to support Cindy Sheehan in her demand that George Bush come out and explain to her the “noble cause” that her son Casey lost his life for in Iraq. Though I had been active for many years, in different ways and for different and diverse causes, my passion was waning and dormant. I’ll always be grateful to Tracy for inspiring me to get back out there.
I wish that no one needed to protest another war in this country. I wish our leaders had learned their lesson from Vietnam. But they haven’t. In fact it seems like they are hell bent on drawing us into a conflict that could have a much greater disasterous effect for many countries, not to mention our own. I won’t deny a certain anticipation that I feel when I do get to make a trip and protest with likeminded people. Especially those of you here that I so deeply respect and treasure as friends. And I’ve expressed feelings of guilt about the social aspect of some of these protests. Thankfully a couple of you set me straight. But honestly, when I think about the nature of today’s anti war protests, which are pretty tame and painless compared to protests of the past and when I contrast the sacrifices I make to get to a protest against the sacrifices of our military men and women, but most especially the brutality and suffering we’ve unleashed on the people of Iraq, that feeling of guilt returns. BooMan has an excellent rebuttal to those who say street protests are a waste of time. He explains why he thinks that they are effective and how they are effective:
“the real power of street protests was never the coverage they received in the press. The real power was the fear induced by an assembled mob on the steps of Congress or the White House. It’s the same power that led to the Orange Revolution in the Ukraine, or that led to the fall of the Eastern Bloc and the Berlin Wall, at the end of the Cold War. Protests may be peaceful, but they have the potential for revolution. The more revolutionary the rhetoric, the more fear inspiring the protests are. “
He’s right to say that, because it’s true that governments do feel threatened by mobs of people who gather in the Capitols, and the result of feeling threatened is almost always a violent crackdown on the protesters. If we are talking about Tiananmen Square or Ocxaca or Selma, then yes, protests are a threat and there is a serious risk taken by anyone who attempts to confront those in power and there is a real possibility of forcing the government to change it’s policies. But there are no attempts at pressing, confronting, or putting fear into the government here in the U.S. We gather at a negotiated for and pre determined site, walk along a prescribed route for a couple of miles, step off and rest, get drinks, rejoin, and head home. The city cleans up the mess, the cops aren’t challenged, the government isn’t challenged, and we all go home feeling as if we are changing history, or at least witnessing history. There is worth in this. But there is no incentive for the government to change course because there is no threat. Maybe this is because this current anti war movement is in it’s infancy and events haven’t gotten so intolerable for the people yet. There is no draft yet. Most Americans aren’t directly affected by the war or have a son, father, mother or daughter who’ve been killed in Iraq yet. This comment by MaryB2004, in a reply to BooMan’s dKos version of the above linked diary better conveys what I’m trying to say. Today’s protests are harmless…so far. I think things will have to become a lot more dire before any real opposition is mounted.
In spite of those feelings I do still think that these events have a great value if they are a stepping off point to engagement by more and more people who think there is nothing they can do to change anything. And there is a great deal of comfort and hopefulness to be gained from being with those who feel the same way you do and are willing to do something outside the normal channels. I was taken with how EJ seemed to be experiencing something like that. Just watching him watching and seeing him quietly absorbing the moment, the atmoshere of dissent was kind of moving to tell you the truth. The same with Manny. Several times I heard them say that there are a lot of people here. It was cool to see it in them because I feel the same way. Those of us who’ve been to other protests noticed that there were a lot more young people this time. That is always an encouraging sign. Lot’s of people brought their small children. The lesson being taught to them is invaluable and we’ll all benefit from those little ones in the future. To all parents who involve their children…thank you. But I hope that thos kids will never again have to be at an American war protest. Sadly though I think this is just the beginning because Bush sure doesn’t give one single rat’s ass what we say. Not yet anyway. But if he keeps escalating this war and putting our soldiers in the impossible situation they are in where they are perpetuating a criminal war, yet have to risk prison to disengage from it, when he’s talking about attacking a country that can inflict serious damage on us then we’re gonna have to do our own escalating. I hope it doesn’t come to that.
I originally started out to write another one of my feel good post protest diaries but I think that there are unpleasant events on the horizon, and it darkened my mood a bit. I have some opinions that clash with some members here, especially those who are close to our soldiers. I’m sorry that there is conflict and I know that some of those opinions are deeply hurtful and offensive to people I care about. I wish we weren’t going through any of this. But I can’t change the way I feel. I think that this war will end, like the Vietnam war ended, when the soldiers themselves can no longer justify being a part of a machine that is commiting war crimes. When they can no longer bear the burden that this president has placed on them, and they begin resisting in larger numbers. I agree with BooMan and others who say that the war would end sooner if there were a draft because more Americans would be directly at risk, but I see no point in having more people killed to end something that has already gotten too many people killed. We’re all going to be forced to resist in larger numbers and forced to place ourselves in dangerous situations before this is all finished. Because this sick bastard who is occupying our White House isn’t going to go quietly. He won’t.
Update [2007-1-30 8:50:43 by supersoling]:
Here are a few pictures I took. I’ll load more later as it takes forever on dialup….
…The crowd moves closer to the stage. I’m not sure about the official crowd size estimates of 100,000 or less because it sure looked like a lot more people than were there in 05 to me…
…Actually, this is the crowd gathering toward the stage…
…The BT crew…
…Tampopo…a very cool kid ;o)…
…Anyone recognize this guy?…
…Ann Wright, who resigned from the State Department in protest…
…Recognize this guy yet? It’s Ray McGovern, CIA analyst and one of Reagan’s PDB briefers, who just happened to be right in front of us…
…Here he’s shooting the breeze with BooMan. The content of the breeze is classified though. I’ll let BooMan decide whether to share it or not. My own personal opinion about this picture though is that Ray is explaining to BooMan that there will be no President Cheney if we impeach Bush because we’re going to impeach both of them.
…more later…
Update [2007-1-30 12:52:59 by supersoling]:…Here’s a couple more from the protest…
…distree signal…
…ignored and stepped on, kinda poignant…The next day I took a walk alone in the rain…
…This is the Dept.of Education, across the street from the hotel we stayed in. Bush marking his territory like a dog pissing on a tree…
…The empty reflecting pool in front of the Lincoln Memorial say’s something about the emptiness of Washington…
…a different age, a different love…
…a Man………..
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Powerful thoughts and feelings. I worry that your dark fears are just over the horizon.
Hey super- A few things. First, it was great to meet you. Honestly, the whole weekend I was thinking damn, I’m glad this guy is on our side. Even when you’re silent, your resolve and quiet intensity are apparent and inspiring. Second, I agree with maryb’s comment too. Though it was my first march, I gave up on its effectiveness as a domestic policy affecting event when I learned how scripted it was. I mean, did they get permits for that? Come on. Not exactly what I was expecting. Third, I think it’s worth it anyway. As BooMan wrote earlier,… Read more »
Just to piggyback on a couple of things, ‘cuz it’s bedtime: First, it was so good to meet everyone. I really, really enjoyed that opportunity. But the strength of the blog really dawned on me the next day, which gets to the second and most important point. Used correctly, this can be a medium where people are drawn together for action. E.g., BF and I live close by, relatively speaking, but how else would we have met? How would I have met you or Super or anyone else? There are so many “differences”: region, race, state, gender, age, occupation, etc.… Read more »
Seeing as it’s early, 🙂 I’m going to piggy-back on your comment, AP. You’re absolutely right about the effectiveness of this medium in bringing people together – and I’ve met some truly amazing folks that I wouldn’t have known otherwise. Outside of this – we’re left to random encounters – and it just isn’t that often where an opportunity presents itself to engage in political conversation with a stranger. I’ve recently been sparked into action by several events. First, the inhumane treatment of fellow humans during the Swift plant raids. For the love of god – NO ONE deserves to… Read more »
I’m glad that my “quiet intensity” didn’t throw you off Ej. I’m often misread because of my silence in certain situations or my face conveys something different from my actual feelings. It was a pleasure to finally meet you too and I too find myself a little shaken and awed by the dramas that lie behind some of those monuments. It can stop a guy dead in his tracks. I think there’s a reason why you and I and Manny all ended up walking to those places alone instead of together because we each have our own ways of taking… Read more »
when the troops themselves will stand and say “No more!” It’s why the military is going so hard after Lt. Ehren Watada — to put fear into the hearts and minds of those who are considering making a stand. They know that Watada is merely the first small pebble falling out of their collapsing dam. But thanks to the work of Appeal for Redress, and groups that post fliers at military bases under cover of darkness, and many others working behind the scenes, hopefully the day will come when military members and their families will realize that they did not… Read more »
Thanks for your candor, ss – your passion is obvious, and we all know how much this type of event means to you and so many others – to participate in the demonstrations. (But, what would a draft bring us – except the same crap from the 1960s – where brothers such as mine, who came from a poor family – didn’t stand a chance against the draft – and the rich always prevail.) As much as everyone loves to trash Nixon – forgive me, but he did NOT screen his audiences – and no matter his paranoia, he… Read more »
Thanks for your comment -A-,
I’m not sure if Bush avoids engaging with those who disagree with him out of fear. I rather think that he simply doesn’t give a fuck what anyone thinks. He has his orders and his agenda and anything else is a waste of his precious (mind) time.
I missed the protest this year (had to work arg!), but I was there last year and said to myself and my friends that I knew I’d have reason to be back the next year because I knew we wouldn’t be out of the debacle 12 months from then. I don’t know when the hell we’re going to get out either. And it’s so fucking frustrating. What the fuck did all of us work so hard for on all the campaigns we wrote about, told our friends about, volunteered at, donated money to… It seems as if we’ve just elected… Read more »
Well said Super. Sorry to have missed you. I agree with you that this movement needs something to kick start it a bit — to make it uncomfortable to those in power. But there’s some value in coming together — even in all the tame passivity that marks our current protests. We are witnesses to the wrong. And we, as human beings, grow stronger knowing that we are not alone in witnessing the lunacy. It is hard to measure our (your) impact. There is not tourism-protest, like ours now, and then the next day — war is over. But I’m… Read more »
Beautifully said. I’m fed up with free-speech zones, and permits, and the fact that many times there are more cops at peace rallies than there are at other gatherings. I wish we had more direct impact, but I think the rallies do have value. In the past the rallies seemed like the culmination of the anti-war movement, now they seem more like a starting point to me. As a result of attending a rally in Albuquerque, I made a few more phone calls yesterday. I probably would have felt too beaten down and tired to have done it if I… Read more »
Hey Kahli, didn’t see your post when I too wrote about the free speech zones. You and Joe have made excellent points. What are we willing to sacrifice? Well – first we have to counter the message that’s coming from the top down – in which dear George wants us all to go out and spend our money. NO Sadly, I don’t have a good answer to your question of sacrifice. I’ll openly admit that I’m not willing to put my life on the line – but it terrifies me to no end that something out there is brewing… Read more »
Super, Your point about the solidarity one feels is well taken. Our local rally was sparsely attended when I first arrived. But upon getting in line with the others present, my personal feelings were forgotten and I was able to concentrate on the business at hand. I have to believe that our smaller event had at least some small impact. If nothing else, even my 8 year old felt comfortable enought to raise a sign against the escalation. And that is no small thing.
Thank you for being there and thank you for helping to ensure a brighter and saner future by enlisting the help of your son. We need a million more B2’s and Baby B2’s :o)
Emotionally I’m expecting him to hit Iran, whether we do it or Israel does it with our super secret top secret blessing and protection from two carrier groups in the gulf while we bleat that all we are doing is maintaining stability in the region. If people fighting him at the top can turn that around that just a win for me. I have accepted the fact that he is the dark lord my generation is going to have to overcome and so be it. I don’t fear him anymore, I consider him an equal opponent except that he is… Read more »
Speaking of surprises and press coverage, I want us all to go to NYC and stand outside there at the Today show, you know, where all the people bring their signs for mom and dad back home in Kentucky or wherever to see on teevee? Only, I want to bring anti-war signs with me. Maybe a dorky tourist slogan on one side, flipped over for the cameras at the appropriate moment?
You might be out of luck… Groups grapple with ‘parade’ rule In light of new parade rules announced by the NYPD last week, groups as varied as funeral parlor directors and walking tour operators are wondering if their work will now require a police permit. The new rules define a “parade” as “any procession or race that consists of a recognizable group of 50 or more pedestrians, vehicles or bicycles…” While legal observers say police will use the change to target the monthly Critical Mass bike ride, it will apply equally to any group larger than 49 people. “Does this… Read more »
Who had this bright idea and why?
NY has to be the toughest American city to protest in. The restrictions that have been instituted make it nearly impossible to gather any significant group anywhere that will have an effect on who or whatever is the target of the action. Bloomberg is in mucho tight with the Bush machine and he’s cracked down hard. The shit that happened to people at the Republican convention in 04 was the most blatant example. That, and restrictions on useing the sidewalk/street, how many wide you’re allowed to form, saying that Central Park is off limits to protect the grass when there… Read more »
They name Critical Mass explicitly. Why? Bicycles are a direct threat to the War for Oil. Bicycles are an alternative. As long as you have to gas up your car, it doesn’t matter what you think: The War for Oil will have to continue and you will be supporting it.
And of course, if they can shut down bicycle riders it just makes them that much ahead on suppressing other dissent.
After a couple of months, the cops were around not to break heads but to direct traffic.
I remember how the NYPD just waded in on Critical Mass while I was there two years ago. And the harassment and jailing hasn’t ended YET?
So, as long as we disperse ourselves throughout the crowd and don’t move as a group of >49 people, we might be okay?
It really ticks me off to see our representatives wasting time and money restricting our freedom to assemble, instead of doing something that might actually be of benefit to the public.
you feel so deeply and that is why I love you so. As I said on earlier diaries about the protests this weekend, we know we aren’t going to change BushCO but know that the representatives have the power to do so. It is our duty to stay on them and in their faces until we get our kids back home safely. When I first arrived on the scene downtown Saturday there were maybe ten people on the corner. Over 2500 ended up there and it was envigorating. I am newly energized to keep up the fight. We all can… Read more »
I’m sure they have a formula to extrapolate the numbers of protesters to the size of our opposition. They do have a formula for how many people one phone call or one letter represents. “These days, one letter represents the voice of 15,000 people,” Senator Pete Knight said in 1996. So to my mind, one person standing on the mall, or lying down to spell out ‘IMPEACH!’ speaks for at least a million. That’s why it’s so important to belittle the numbers. I don’t want you to ever have to do it again either, but am very grateful to… Read more »
180 million is 60% of our 300 million population that is openly opposed to this war. Going by your percentages, I think the number of people who should be at the Mall is 28 million. It would be a dream just to get 15% of that number or even just a million. I’m not trying to diminish what was accomplished on Saturday but I’m talking more about the nature of the protests not necesarrily the numbers. Tampopo taliked to me about the million women who showed up in a relatively recent gathering. I think that when we can generate those… Read more »
I said I’d read and comment and I will. First off, I think the DC marches are about empowerment moreso than stopping the bloodshed. But I don’t believe they will cast any change from the killing and deaths. Simply because Americans are not angry enough. I think most protests are too political nowadays. That’s why they are so segmented, like an orange. They aren’t about stopping the murders, waste and wars… they are about political lines. Half a million people in the streets. Barely a word about it in America. No shock though because WE THE PEOPLE don’t rise up… Read more »
DJ I for one am glad you are posting again and how ever briefly at least we know you are not afraid to tell the truth!! I love you DJ!!
Love you, too. Thank you for the kind words.
It’s not just how you protest, it’s how you also try to live.
tax in protest?
{{{{DJ}}}} Damn good to see you again sister. So glad to find you still full of passion, drive, heart and commitment. Fighting the good fight. Standing true to your values. It’s incredibly admirable. It’s funny, I think your willingness to put yourself physically on the line does put you into the same excellent, patriotic, company of Lt. Watada (his fathers speech was fantastic). You are both upholding your duty to the Constitution to defend your country from all enemies, foreign or domestic. I’m sure your strength of conviction and all the struggles and risks you’ve gone through to get to… Read more »
In no way am like Lt. Watada or VFP or IVAV. And it’s in no way about me. NOne of it is really. This is all about stopping war. All wars. I’ve privately written to Supersoling and let him know what my extremely progress company does with federal taxes for those of us who are opposed to war and slaughter. My place of employment is very supportive of my activities. I still refuse to engage and guess I should again take leave as I didn’t want to cause another shit storm. I told Supersoling I’d read his words and share… Read more »
Hey, don’t dismiss what you do Janet, it’s incredibly important. It can’t just be the military vets and war resistors who speak out – soldiers answer to the civilians… they need your support in order to say no. In terms of the other issue… why do you think I’m not around very much anymore (outside of being incredibly busy at work)? I love most people here, but the ‘my way or the highway’ and ‘I’m better than you because I’ve suffered more’ shit can get you down. The only reason I didn’t say anything was because of you and super… Read more »
Lately every time I’m at an event which is mostly VFP/CodePink/IVAV there are military men and women giving themselves up. The media doesn’t tell how many have gone awol or resisted. But it’s more than the “official” count of the DoD dead. (More than 3,000 service members have been butchered by Bush) More than that have resisted and are resisting. It’s not just Swift or Watada… it’s the ones who come to those events to find the arms of support. We need to keep their names in the limelight so that others know there are people resisting. Did you… Read more »
who break the law are worthy human beings. When everything went to pieces where my husband works over the things that were posted in two of my diaries it was because the soldiers said that they have already been to Iraq…some of them for two years…then to make you happy and think they are worthy they go to jail for six years. You would write a nice diary about them and when Iraq is all over and done you all slap each other the backs, job well done, but they will sit in jail because they broke military law and… Read more »
how you don’t support this illegal occupation except for your husbands job? I am not being snotty I just want to know.
It hasn’t been made illegal in the real world and sadly soldiers have to live in the real world and they pay real world consequences. If the law were changed the soldiers would be more than glad to all stay home, believe me.
The “real world” includes International Law does it not? Or do you hold the same rightwing stance on obeying International Law and Treaties that Bush does?
It’s an illegal war. Get used to it, lord knows the WORLD has. You’ll feel better, I promise.
I don’t hold the same stance as Bush but I’m not the decider of this right now, now am I?
You should go read the Constitution.
International Law and Treaties the USA has signed ARE US law.
Did they not teach you that on the base?
who uphold the law you are wrong. Until different people come to power who feel differently in the real world of soldiers and going to jail for breaking military laws you are still wrong.
Gonzales upholds the law??
Are you a Republican? I’m seriously asking, since this is a rather strange statement.
Kosovo was illegal under international law.
And the AG is the confirmed official that enforces the law in this country. If he/she refuses to interpret the law in accordance with the Constitution (like Reno re:Kosovo) that is something for Congress and the courts to deal with.
You are not making a very compelling argument here for why soldiers should feel the war is illegal. If you break it out and separate it from the Kosovo mission, that might help.
Okay, imnotasoldiernoranamerican, hope that’s enough of a qualifier.
I wasn’t making a case, I was pointing out where Tracy was factually incorrect on what is or is not US law according to your own Constitution.
But nice to know I have to “prove my case” whereas Tracy does not. Whatever, nice logic and fairness doctrine you have going.
You are talking about what is legal under international law and you are asserting that whatever is illegal under international law is also illegal under American law. This is not true. We don’t, for example, recognize the authority of the International Criminal Court. We do have obligations under the UN charter, the Geneva conventions and so on. And clear violations of our obligations should be held as unconstitutional under the treaties portion of the Constitution. However, that is not how the AG has interpreted the law. And until the courts (as in Hamdi) and Congress (i.e. FICA) rule that… Read more »
They are being EXTORTED by criminals–who claim, falsely, to be America’s elected leaders–to commit unjustified, premeditated, cold-blooded murder.
NOTHING, NOTHING IN THIS WORLD OR THE NEXT will wash them clean. Putting on happy-face just does not help.
What can help them reject and abandon these crimes? That would be worth doing.
btw… everything the Nazi’s did was legal.
~ Martin Luther King, Jr. via Dammit Janet
And your point is?
My point would be, in this context, what obligation did the average German citizen have to resist what the Nazis were doing? Should they have payed their taxes? Should they have risked execution or a concentration camp? Certainly they had some obligation to do resist. I’m assuming here that you would argue that German soldiers were morally, if not legally, obligated to refuse orders. What of the citizens?
The UN Council seems to think so too. Go read this
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/attack/lawindex.htm
jail when they say it’s an illegal occupation then it isn’t an illegal occupation in America Leezy and that’s just more building castles in the air. Your opinions right now have no affect on the legal binding consequences that soldiers have to deal with. Right now it’s just an opinion even if it’s the U.N.’s opinion. It isn’t the law of this land.
My take on this is that each of us supports this war in their own way. At a minimum, paying your taxes helps fund the war. For soldiers, asking them to give up their freedom and pension is asking a lot. And if you are going to ask them to do it, you should consider doing something comparable. Obviously, it isn’t quite an even match. A civilian isn’t put in the position of disobeying a direct order that is of questionable legality. But there is a bit of similarity in paying taxes that will go to fund something of questionable… Read more »
I didn’t realize that there were differences between civilians with ties to the military and civilians without. Disobeying direct orders… I guess you haven’t been told by ten police officers to move from the entrance of a building? Have you been forced to be frisked by Homeland Security? But these are just apples and oranges… I realize that… but I didn’t think we had to preface our stance against the slaughter of Iraqis with “Imawifeofasoldier” or “Imalowlypeaceacitivst”. And since you think you know all about me and what I’m about… and what I’ve done and do… I’ll take me leave..… Read more »
I don’t think that’s what he said DJ. I heard him asking for sensitivity. It’s not a lot to ask for. And no one can seriously deny that a soldier, no matter his intent in this war, is not at a greater risk of losing his or her life compared to what passes for protesting these days. The time when protesters routinely face down armed and willing to shoot police and paramilitaries in this country could very well be just over the horizon, but it ain’t here yet, not on any comparable scale to what soldiers in Iraq are facing.… Read more »
So I guess we should just lower the standards in America till it gets bad enough to do anything… don’t get angry till they’re shooting us… And just how will we know what happens at protests… how will know when people are beaten, injured, their teeth knocked out… Paramilitary – try watching “left to die” by Elizabeth Atly regarding what’s going on right now in NOLA. Of course there’s Greg Palast and Amy Goodman who get guns in their faces for trying to report things… oh that’s right.. I’m not living in the “real world” of George Bush and his… Read more »
That’s not what I said and that’s not what he said Janet. And I’ve been aware of Blackwater troops in Nola since day one. My opinion is not uninformed. You and others may be risking your safety and the stability of your families by engaging in protests that have the potential or real danger that leads to people being beaten and killed. Those things are happening now. But it isn’t the average 21st century American antiwar protest that ends that way…not yet. It was kinda the whole point of my diary, how lame these protests are. And how will we… Read more »
My comment was not singling you out. I am not making assumptions about your tax returns. I’m asking that both your side and Tracy’s side try to make an effort to hear each other and not just have another fight on the same terms as last time.
This “Fight” you speak of… it takes two to fight. From what I recall there was only one fighting. I did not and have not engaged.. And furthermore.. you want me to moderate my stances??? Who are you to tell me what to do? You judge others here and then allow for how they will be treated by others here based on what you ASSUME of them. What the hell do you know of my taxes? My spare time, my advocacy? There was no fight. In fact it took a long time of being bashed around here for me… Read more »
Where it really upset me badly before it doesn’t so much now. I guess it has become part of the landscape of things and the current climate we all live in. I won’t be going overboard about it all Booman. I can keep my cool now. I understand better now that I am very much this odd little minority in America but I do intend to bring this odd little minority’s truth to the table. I’m even okay if Janet wants to continue demonizing soldiers that serve right now. I’ll just have to deal with it huh? Hell, I look… Read more »
I respect the position you’re in Tracy. It’s beyond difficult and impossible for many of us to understand. Unless you’re a spouse, sibling, child or parent of a soldier you simply can’t know how difficult. For myself, that fact makes it very hard for me to express the way I feel about things because it does seem sanctimonious for anyone who isn’t risking their life or dealing with the risk of losing a loved one to express any opinion that sounds like we know what soldiers should be doing. But in spite of the fucked up territory we get into… Read more »
running around this blog or this country claiming to be a Nation of Laws when we want “W” impeached and pull the Nation of Laws out from under our arguments on our whim when we want soldiers to stay home from Iraq. It makes us a bunch of hypocrites and no better than Bush and friends when we just want to run roughshod over the law because we said so and this is the easiest way to get what we want. I never promised you that living in a Nation of Laws and a Democracy was going to be easy,… Read more »
I know you did because I read that you did. How many ways were there to make a military not viable? It wasn’t just the soldiers who resisted who made the military no longer viable friend….it was a lot of the soldiers who went who also made the military no longer viable. You did read that Bush is giving people citizenship for fighting for him and the soldiers are already beginning to arrive from this new venture of his, so just exactly when do think they are going to run out of fresh meat now? I think you had better… Read more »
I only watched the trailer but I’ve read more than I wanted to about how Vietnam unfolded from within the military. I gues I haven’t been clear. When i say resist I don’t mean just those who refused to go or those who fled to other countries. Those guys were a part of it, but the larger and more significant part was from those who resisted from within, from in country. LeftVet had a great diary at dKos a few days ago about some of his experience. I’m talking more about those who flat refused a platoon leader’s orders to… Read more »
Super, my husband refused the order to shoot the looters in Al Anbar province that first year. I have written about this, people know this! He told the commander in front of all the other pilots that it was an illegal order and against the Geneva Conventions and they didn’t know what the hell to say to him and for the 3rd ACR in Al Anbar that one little thing saved untold people until the Marines took Al Anbar over from the 3rd ACR. The 3rd ACR had just gotten back from Bosnia and everybody looked around and said….”Oh yeah,… Read more »
Please keep trying… I know what you wrote Tracy. I read just about everything that you do write. I value your opinion for a lot of reasons. But see…this is the fucked up territory I was talking about. It’s this thin line that I feel forced to walk in order to express myself. And how can I do that without it becoming personal for you? I can’t. I don’t ever want to say things that hurt people I care about but this conflict here is a microcosym of what will be happening more and more out in the country. It… Read more »
Supersoling. Not by miles. My husband nearly sobbed seeing what happened, but for the sake of what one man can do to save others while his ass is so far out there on the line and then for him to be so carelessly labeled a war criminal. More people would have died if he wasn’t who he was where he was that day and empower others around him to follow the Geneva Conventions every day that followed that one for a year….and to be held in such contempt by people who have never faced such things or such challenges let… Read more »
There was one time when you were pushing Sir, No Sir and I thought…wow, he gets it. I guess only Vietnam was the right war for soldiers to refuse illegal orders in and be commended for it, not this one though huh?
It’s just tough on me sometimes. Most soldiers will not talk about certain acts of decency either because they want this war over. I literally saw soldiers shaking their heads recently when one soldier wanted to talk about some of the finer moments in Iraq because they are terrified that sharing such moments will empower Bush….give him propaganda to feed the people and a little more energy for the war to continue on. They are all saving their tales of better people for ears that will use it to heal…not harm.
I thought that I just did express my admiration for his actions. I only used Vietnam as an example of what happened then and how it happened. There’s nothing that raises that war and those who participated or didn’t in it above this war and those participating in it now. I get a lot of things. Other things I don’t, but I’m trying to get it. Maybe it’s a gap that just can’t be bridged. I wonder though Tracy, is it not possible that there’s some gettin to be gotten from your quarter too? Despite the very real and unimaginable… Read more »
I don’t think my husband really wants your admiration. I don’t think any of them really want that. I think they just want you to care on a human level about them. Some of them are doing really good things….some of them have done nothing that we want to talk about but we will have to deal with. A lot of them will go to jail with my blessing and your blessing and the blessing of their fellow soldiers for what they have done and a lot of them already have. My husband stays where he is to keep as… Read more »
my husband refused the order to shoot the looters in Al Anbar province that first year. I have written about this, people know this! He told the commander in front of all the other pilots that it was an illegal order and against the Geneva Conventions and they didn’t know what the hell to say to him
This is courageous.
It broke my husband’s heart watching it on television too!
Heartbreaking, yet:
It is very good the deaths are not on his head. This is more important than you seem to think.
you are needed here and we need your voice. Please,
leezy and spider … they’re just more eloquent than I am … it’s really good to see you back here DJ … you are missed.
but I must share something that someone shared above http://www.appealforredress.org/ There’s a young man with IVAW that I met. He is dying, possibly due to depleted uranium. He marches and has been arrested. Which means… he will lose his medical benefits. Therefore will he not only die, but he will die without care. But he won’t be alone. This is how our country “supports the troops”. This is what we fuel with our complancy. I met a mom who flew from Germany with her severely disabled son thanks to VFP giving her a ticket. See, the US only flies families… Read more »
We are very familiar in this house with the appeal for redress. Might I also take a moment to say that I probably could have a gotten a few more soldiers to sign it who were friends if they hadn’t read some of the crap on here and decided they didn’t give a flying “F” to sign anything you guys may ever blog about.
I’m not feeling very eloquent either olivia-have all kinds of thoughts swirling around in my head(ha nothing new there)about protesting, our soldiers and I just can’t get it settled in my mind this morning to write about …Everyone here has been beyond eloquent and thoughtful putting to shame anything I could write or add. As for protesting itself….I always always believe this is a good idea. To me it truly embodies the spirit of our country. The physical act of protesting and gathering together of like minded people to me extends beyond the coming together of protesters. It’s a mindset… Read more »
Protesting is always the way to go. That is why we live in a Democracy. Demonizing soldiers though is one form of protest most likely to meet with failure I believe. I’m not against protesting. People can even demonize soldiers if they want, hell…this is America….but hell, this is America and can have my say about how demonizing one set of soldiers and holding others above them will get us no place except on the sidelines of taken seriously and will give us goals completely contrary to those we seek.
Good God, are you ever fierce! And I feel the same way about Military Tracy. I just hope we can protest, fight, resist in any way possible.
The end of my $0.02.
through. I was very disappointed by our MIA media. Yes, there were very short notices taken of an “anti-war protest” and very little discussion or interest shown, but nothing like the 60’s. However, we have friends who are not afraid to speak up. I love Rosie O’Donnell! I often watch the view because I never know what is going to come out of her mouth. Last two weeks she has called for the Impeachment of this administration at least twice. Today she talked about the protest and wondered why it wasn’t covered by the press when there was not… Read more »
As DJ closest friend I know that she has been threatened 3 times seriously while protesting. Yes, it scares the hell out of me.
So please put the “what have you risked” argument away.
She has put her ass on the line to stop this War.
If this comment was meant for me then thank you, but I’m aware of what Janet has done and I don’t think I’ve ever denied the danger that accompanies her when she goes. I worry about her. My opinion on the war more closely matches hers than almost anyone I know. The point I tried to make in the diary was that the big box protests aren’t the same smaller ones that are happening out across the country where it can get very personal and very dangerous. But the government doesn’t count those protests precisely because they are much smaller… Read more »
Supersoling-My comment wasn’t directed specifically at you. It was the general drift about people taking personal risks to stop this war. DJ has gone above and beyond the “Call of Duty” IMHO.
I am sorry if my comments offended you in any way. DJ has shared with me her great admiration for you and the special time in DC that you spent together.
and others… I did not email Momagainstthedraft, in fact I was hoping she wouldn’t see this crap. She is my closest and dearest friend, she knows things before my husband does some times. She knows my fears, she hears my confusion as well as my rage. She’s heard me bawl with the military commissions act was passed. She KNOWS. She is my rock. If it wasn’t for her… I don’t know how I’d be where I am today. We did not “win” and things are getting uglier out there in the streets for people who are wanting an end to… Read more »
Please don’t bash or argue with MomAgainstthedraft.. I didn’t mean you SuperSoling. I meant this blog. It has a way of going after people who have diverse experiences or opinions. I’ve always tried to show the positive side of protests. Provide some encouragement and empowerment so that others might stand up on their own. I’ve achieved that a few times from emails from out of the blue regarding people starting their own vigils due to seeing my photos from the vigils here. Sometimes people just need a visual… Anyways… I HAVE to go to work… and I have to… Read more »
Janet, you know… You’ve made it very plain to me through your public comments here and through private mail and conversations what dangers you face. I don’t recall ever questioning the level of danger you face, nor have I ever placed a danger level test on your protest creds as any qualifier of your value to me personally, or to the larger protest movement. Second, the only one who asked you about your taxes was Tracy and you’ve already made it clear that it’s none of hers or anyone’s business, and I agree with you, it’s no one’s business, so… Read more »
look above 🙂 I left out a sentence.. I didn’t want anyone to bash her.
I didn’t mean you. But.. I don’t read MATD’s as being confrontational. She’s a peacemaker. Like yourself. However, I think her comment was to the people who are making the “what are you risking” comments. Not you directly.
Booman has also mentioned the tax crap, too. That’s what is so infuriating and why I bring it up. It’s like we now have to preface any point we have by stating whether or not we pay our taxes.
I understand. It’s okay.
Take care
I agree that you shouldn’t have to preface anything you say with an assertion that you, like Henry Thoreau, refuse to pay your taxes. ANd that is not the point. The point is that asking such a thing of you is infuriating and annoying, and that is how the other side experiences some of the arguments that soldiers are bad people if they haven’t refused their obligations. It’s a way of making you see the other side by making you feel uncomfortable in the same way they are made to feel uncomfortable. It’s a rhetorical device. But so is calling… Read more »
(((((DJ)))))
Soooo…….
anyone like the pictures?…Anyone?…Hello?….
And I’m inspired to see some “faces from the hill” there with you guys.
Shit!!
For a second there I thought you wrote ‘feces from the hill’! Hahaha!! That works for me too :oP
Did you get a good snap of some? I would have thought the feces was too scared of you guys to show up. You guys might have composted it. That is one righteous thing that comes from having to live through a whole bunch of shit, really nice things grow from it.
Clowns to the left of me, feces to the right, here I am…..
At least some of the clowns were willing to come down off the hill and spread a little fertilizer of their own :o) But it’s true also that some major league funky stuff can grow out of it too. Time will tell.
…and then there’s the shit that grows out of shit…you know?
The kind that makes your friend’s eyes glaze over and cough while they’re telling you…wow…that’s some really good shit maaan…awesome :o)
Well having read this thread from top to bottom I think you need to pass some of that shit around.
Ah, unfortunate timing to have bumped into this stuff huh? Sorry Bro but at least we can end it on a high note ;o)
Duuuuuude, totally. Could I have your permission to post another DC pic in your thread?
Sorry I missed this…of course, post away.
I loved the pictures. And it was nice to see you and everyone else there! 🙂
Yah…
I know you were all astounded at my vastly superior conversational skills ;o)
Sure did super…they made me feel like I was there 😉
Then all is not lost :o)
Of course I liked the pictures..I’ve said it before, beautiful people take beautiful pictures. And it helps so much for all of who simply can’t go and physically protest to feel part of something that is bigger than we are. Peace is never a lost cause.
Thank you Chocolate Ink, thank you verymuch :o)
Who’s going to initiate some make-up sex now?
I think I need a drink first.
I had the drink first Saturday night and then got no sex!
Hmmmm…speaking of high notes, I haven’t seen a comment from AG yet. Maybe he can initiate the makeup sex? With a little smokey Jazz that is :o)
and I am all for make-up sex…teehee.
We’re all against the war – we just disagree on how best to end it.
Beautiful, spirited women who are changing the world in different ways.
Absolute best post in this diary.
Thanks
Now that was a spirited debate. As a newbie here, I didn’t dare interrupt, but I felt your pain…and I have just had a little bit of a history lesson about the Boo Trib Tribe. Old wounds die hard.But PLEASE, keep up the passion, guys. Don’t be afraid of it (somehow I know you’re not!) We’ve only just begun. Thanks for the diary, Super. I’m retired and living far, far away from the action, but as a disabled vet and, later, a veteran of many protests and marches, I can tell you, this process is like a steady drip, drip,… Read more »
Glad to finally make your aquantance Onealbear. And thank you for reading all the way through. I don’t have any illusions that any protests, let alone the tame one’s we see today will change anything right away. It’s just a little disappointing to see the level of the crimes committed challenged at such a low intensity level. And I hold myself accountable in that lack of intensity too. If you want something done right you have to do it yourself sort of thing. I followed some of your comments in the Cafe to your blog briefly and read a bit… Read more »
Yes, that was me. Thanks for visiting my blog–hope you’ll find time to come back. I’m just getting my feet wet here in the pond. So far the water is a little warm, but quite soothing.
who fought this fight before, that drip drip drip thing though makes more than just them a little crazy sometimes because we all so keenly feel the loss of lives while we wait for the next drip. Did any of you ever lose it a few times during your watch?
Oh yeah. A lot of us lost it. This is all so painful. Stiff upper lip, Tracy. I am so glad to know you. This debate is what it’s all about for all of us now. What will become of our country? I think it’s up to us.
The last time I had a good cry was on Thanksgiving night in 2005 after having a heart wrenching conversation with one of my closest friends whom I consider a brother. His marriage was falling apart and he was a couple of weeks away from his second deployment to Iraq. He didn’t want to go and was agonizing with helplessness – all I could do was listen and make him a promise that I would do what I could to help to bring this war to end. That’s ultimately why I booked my flight to D.C. I didn’t go with… Read more »
I’m glad I stepped outside just as you headed off for your solitary midnight tour of the monuments. If I hadn’t I would have missed shaking your hand that last time, even though I assumed I would see you again. And so the time between meetings will be a bit longer than anticipated but certain enough :o) I felt recharged too. You can’t immerse yourself in a sea of likeminded souls and come away unlifted. But I didn’t go there for that. And though I have no illusions about the immediate impact that one gathering will produce, there is an… Read more »
It was an honor to meet you. And a surprise, because somehow, you appeared to me exactly as I had pictured you. Can’t explain that. I could sense the deep well of spirituality, too. Can’t explain that, either.
And the coaster matches perfectly. 🙂 Thank you.
was just a small thank you, AP, for sharing here and in real life how and why you view the world the way you do. In the end, that’s all we can do to try to understand la vida loca. Hope to cross paths again someday. paz
Thank you for your commitment sir.
peace be with you always.
wado friend
And the same to you Infidelpigappleseed :o)
Peace