There is plenty to criticize in Joe Biden’s interview with the New York Observer. But it looks like Markos and Atrios are going apeshit over this comment about Obama:
“I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy,” he said. “I mean, that’s a storybook, man.”
What was Biden trying to say? He was trying to acknowledge that Obama is an attractive candidate with a compelling life-story as a set up to saying that he is too inexperienced to be President. You know…he was doing the build up before the smackdown. Was he trying to say that no black candidates have ever run for president before? No. Was it his intention to suggest that Jesse Jackson and Carol Mosely-Braun are stupid, dirty, unattractive and inarticulate? No. Biden was just running his mouth like he always does. Was it an insensitive remark? Not to me. It was phrased in an unfortunate way. It shows a certain amount of arrogance for Biden to insinuate that Jesse Jackson wasn’t a mainstream candidate. But, did anyone, and I mean anyone ever think Jackson had a chance in hell of winning the 1988 nomination for President? I think Biden was suggesting that Obama has a real shot and that he is the first African-American to have a real shot.
So, I think people are going overboard in their criticism of Biden over this comment. But it points out a very good reason not to support Joe Biden for the nomination. When we elect a nominee, we are putting our hopes and aspirations and issues in their hands. We have to trust them to be good stewards of our agenda. And Joe Biden has a terminal case of foot-in-mouthitis. He always has had that problem and he always will.
He can be a very articulate debater. But you can trust him to make a major gaffe every few months. Maybe it is because he talks incessantly, but he says stupid, politically incorrect shit on a regular basis. So don’t support him because he will only sink himself and takes your hopes down with him.
They are not getting overboard, Biden made the same in sensitive comment about Indians and dunkin donuts. You want to tell me Jesse, sharpton, Keyes and Braun are not articulate, clean and yes bright? You may not like their style or politics for that matter, but they are no dummies either.So defend Biden all you want, but don’t play semantics with us.
I’m fully aware of Biden’s remark about Indians and his idiotic remarks about Delaware being a slave state. This adds to his list of dumb remarks. But I stand by my interpretation of what he meant.
This adds to his list of dumb remarks.
Look, these aren’t just dumb remarks. They’re the remarks of a bigot.
I agree-the kind of bigot who doesn’t realize he is one which is why he continues to make his ‘insensitive’ remarks. I don’t want to get started on institutional racism again but that is what it is.
the kind of bigot who doesn’t realize he is one which is why he continues to make his ‘insensitive’ remarks
Precisely. How is this different from Allen’s ‘Macaca’ remark or Trent Lott’s expressed nostalgia for a lost election and time.
The real problem is that he and his defenders are Democrats, ‘new’ Democrats but Democrats nonetheless.
Institutional racism is almost more damaging than flat out racism in my view..that you can combat but IR is much more pernicious and hard to overcome…how do you convince people who are racist when they believe they aren’t?
about how racist the “macaca” remark was. And now they’re trying to downplay Biden’s remark – “Oh he didn’t really mean it, he misspoke” etc. What a crock.
No Democrat should even think these words, much less blather them to the national media.
No doubt. Institutional racism is so blinding obvious, unless one is securely and unquestionably inside the institution. Then one is oblivious. Senator Joe is anchored inside the institution.
If anyone wants to hear how stupid his statement sounds just substitute Gay-American, Hispanic American, Native American or even Anglo-American for African-American.
So being articulate, bright, clean and good looking automatically makes for a ‘storybook’…well gee then I guess if you have those attributes you have a storybook life and should run for president. Which is why I said in an earlier comment that his statement is offensive but also offensively stupid.
I know what he meant. “Obama’s a good black, not like the others, who are so embarrassing.”
There was a great piece on WHYY (the NPR affiliate for those of you not in pHilly) in December: it was this black dude talking about moving to Philly, and seeing urban white poverty for the first time. He was shocked: as a southerner, all he’d seen of white poverty was appalachian people, mountain people, hillbillies. What surprised him most about philly poverty was that it was no different from the black poverty he already knew. the skin color was the only difference.
Maybe Biden meant what he said “in a good way” but that doesn’t mitigate the fact that he betrayed some really problematic assumptions for someone who’s in a position of power.
IMO. YMMV.
Shirley Chisholm wasn’t mainstream, articulate, etc? She was the first African-American to run for President.
Leslie
I don’t know if ‘mainstream’ is a charged word or not. I take ‘mainstream’ to mean ‘viable’, as in, has a real chance to win the nomination. From that standpoint Chisholm, Sharpton, Keyes and Mosely-Braun don’t apply.
And Jesse Jackson made a strong showing and won almost a dozen primaries, but even at the height of his success no one thought there was any chance he might actually prevail.
Let’s look at it another way. We have had several evangelical candidates that have run for President. Pat Robertson had a very strong showing in Iowa in, I think, 1988. Gary Bauer ran in 2000. He didn’t do well at all. We could say that they were not mainstream candidates. That wouldn’t be making a value judgment on the value of their ideas, nor would it suggest that their ideas should not be mainstream ideas. It just means that they were not strong candidates.
Biden was not intending to suggest that Keyes, Sharpton, Jackson etc. are inarticulate. He’s actually ignoring all of that and just trying to give Obama some faint praise before he slaps him down.
If you want to tear the guy to pieces over it, go ahead. I think it’s an overreaction.
Mainstream could also mean the prevailing current of thought, which is how I usually interpret it. I don’t think it’s an overreaction to point out that Biden is mistaken when he refers to Obama as the first black person to run for president.
Plus, I would add that it’s obvious Biden was setting Obama and Clinton up for the slamdown. But Biden is using their race and sex as the prelude to dismissing them, and I find that very offensive.
Biden is sunk. As it should be. I agree with you, Booman. Joey B. didn’t mean for this to come out as a racist slur. But, as always, he just coudn’t resist playing to the crowd. That’s his schtick. (Think 7-11, Indian accents, slave state, confederate flag, etc.) But, as as I wrote here a couple of weeks ago, Biden is a pitiful panderer. He will say anything to any audience that he thinks will get them into a raucus frenzy. Unfortunately, that doesn’t work too well on the international stage. I mean, just look at the bumbling, inarticulate, slaughterer of the English language we’ve got now. Do we really want to replay that tune? No way. Biden should do us all a favor and quit this ridiculous charade.
I read this earlier today and I was offended Boo…I do think it’s offensive and offensively stupid…with ‘friends’ like Biden who needs enemies. No matter what he was ‘trying’ to say to me it had the hint of institutional racism. I wouldn’t say I’m going apeshit over this but then I have little use for Biden anyway so I mainly try to ignore him.
You’re right that Biden can’t seem to talk without throwing in a bunch of gaffes sooner or later…think he just likes the sound of his own voice and keeps on going when he should just shut up and do some listening instead.
He could have meant it both ways: both incorruptible and sweet-smelling.
But it was still a stupid-assed, racist remark.
I’ve smelled funky folks of all backgrounds, but when I’ve done historical research going back to the late 19th century and into the 1930s, what pisses racist whites is (1) the supposed aroma of black people and (2) how well they managed to dress and look compared to them. As if whites bathed with any regularity themselves in those days…and had easy access to fresh water and clean linen, much less soap. And if black folks had style and flair about how they wished to look, whether it was hand-me-downs or store-bought, it threatened the whites who saw that they couldn’t compete and that it took some ‘thinking’ on the part of people whom the culture said didn’t.
If you didn’t happen to have access to a tub at home, you had to buy time in a tub for five or ten cents…after hunting for one that would admit ‘the colored.’
People have been saying some really stupid stuff lately. Stuff that supposedly we’re all beyond saying. People should know better; instead, they refuse to engage brain while opening mouth. I’ve long ceased to have any positive impression of Biden. He’s an idiot.
I like your comment better than mine..you managed to say what I was thinking much better.
Heh, heh, heh. That’s funny.
Of course, I wonder if anyone in Delaware could actually work in the state w/o MBNA as an employer. It seems like half the darn state works for them.
Anyway…he’s the type of racist who will do and say the right thing, especially when it comes to kids, but in his heart believe himself superior. Add to the equation that Sen. Obama just got there yesterday (compared to his 20 years) and there you have it. He just doesn’t know what to do with himself. Idiot.
I’ll assume (rightly or wrongly) that this means the first such candidate that could appeal to white Americans. I believe that the sad term that he was grasping for is electable.
Yeah, and how did he get to be the first ‘mainstream African-American’?………something to do with the media itself maybe setting him up as the first worthy black person to be ‘electable’…no other ‘worthy’ blacks need apply…..
I will reserve judgment until I get home and can listen to his remark (they block a/v stuff here at work) but after reading Josh Marshall I’m starting to think that this is turning into a leftist equivalent of the right-wing firestorm surrounding the Kerry botched joke.
What an asinine thing to say. Racism exposed.
Can’t wait to hear what he as to say about Hillary.
The first thing that came to mind was Chris Rock talking about how people praise Colin Powell.
It was a remarkably stupid thing to say, how could those words even come out of your mouth without some filter saying “hmmm, maybe I shouldn’t say he’s the first CLEAN black mainstream Presidential candidate.” Seriously, CLEAN was the best that a Senator could think of? WTF was he thinking??
I’ve always loved that Chris Rock(and love chris rock)quote-pretty much sums up the institutional racism I keep harping on.
of certain white people being surprised that I’m so…articulate.
Like I’m going to open my mouth and ghetto-speak is going to automatically peel off my tongue. Or because I am heavy, I am going to sound like Beulah or Aunt Jemima.
When they’re disappointed that I don’t sound like that, they prove themselves worthless with bad behavior that’s sometimes accompanied by not looking at me in the eyes. To provoke some kind of negative response from me so they don’t have to be nice.
I still get this shit. I’m going to be 53 in March. I have two fucking degrees. I’m almost finished with my book.
And I still get this shit.
A million “4s” for you. I know just how you feel.
The husband and I call it “sounding … taller on the telephone.” The line comes from Eddie Murphy’s The Distinguished Gentleman which was likely a sort of homage to Smokey and the Bandit with the line,”You sounded taller on the radio.”
Specifically, this line is invoked when a person who you’ve been talking to or working with on the phone meets you in person and is quite surprised that you are Black–but try mightily to cloak their surprise. Hilarity ensues. Usually of the cringe-worthy sort.
:<(
Chris Rock is brilliant. Every we time we hear this type of talk, the hubby and I glance at each other and say…He so articulate! He speaks so well…! It’s perfect shorthand for WTF do you think? How else were you expecting s/he to present herself or himself? Good Lord.
I would never vote for Biden because of his sellouts to the usurers and other corporate masters. Gotta admit though, that I sometimes find his inability to stick to the PC line kind of refreshing. Once in a while there’s a real human in there, in contrast to Hillary and even Obama and Edwards. Think of him as some guy who somehow finishes the Boston Marathon despite a compulsion to stop and comment on the spectators’ hats. After all the sleek, maniacally focused frontrunners, he trails in as a sight for sore eyes.
He was obviously trying to pretend to praise Obama for living out some American Dream bullshit. I don’t know that an inability to sell insincerity is all bad.
Was it his intention to suggest that Jesse Jackson and Carol Mosely-Braun are stupid, dirty, unattractive and inarticulate? No.
His intention to suggest, or his intention to say out loud? Hmmmm.
What I do know is this: he’s an ass. And folks thought John Kerry couldn’t speak? Biden makes Kerry look as though he returned to his old self, protesting the war.
Joe makes himself look petty, jealous, arrogant and patronizing. Oh yeah, and pretty racist. I mean, damn–he’s clean??? How does that just tumble out of your mouth? Or did he have a Hairspray moment–is Sen. Obama his Tracy Turnblad? Our little Obama’s a clean teen?!
Joe, Joe, Joe. Sit down and shut up.
I definitely don’t see his problem as a lack of PC. When someone doesn’t understand anothers point of view and tried real hard to sound like they do, that’s when PC is phoney and a waste of energy. What this says about Joe is that he has not taken the time to learn about those other candidates (Jackson, Mosely Braun,et al) and realize what their candidacy meant to African Americans.
I said this before in another diary, but I remember when Mondale began talking about nominating Ferraro as VP. My first reaction was, “No big deal, women have been in supporting roles for a long time.” Then when I saw the two of them at the announcement on TV, I cried. It hit a powerful and (til then) marginalized place in me.
I remember seeing the faces of black delegates at the Dem convention when Jesse ran. I saw the same feeling in their eyes. And it goes WAY beyond “electability.”
What Biden’s remarks show is that he hasn’t spent enough time knowing and listening to people who have had that experience. Even that is probably giving him the benefit of the doubt.
As Chris Rock riffed, “Articulate isn’t a compliment; “articulate” is what you call somebody when you expect them to be stupid.”
And this comes on the heels of the “we’re a slave state” boats, as Biden explained to Southerners why he’d be the Democrat to carry the south.
So yeah, it WAS offensive to me, and for a variety of reasons. The assumptions underlying “articulate”; Joe’s seeming belief that the way to appeal to southern voters is to play to their supposed racial animosity; and because as you point out, “he says stupid, politically incorrect shit on a regular basis.” I’d even take out the “politically correct” qualification: he just says stupid shit on a regular basis.
I have an excuse: I’m drunk all the time. What’s Joe’s?
Personally, I didn`t see it as a racist remark, but if I look around the corner & squint my eyes a little, I think I might see a little bit of it. It could be a shadow though.
Joe B. should go back to plagiarizing British lefties instead of American Righties. (“Clean?” He really said “Clean?” I hope that shoe leather tastes yummy.)
I would be inclined to think that Biden was simply referring to a criminally and morally electable candidate but for this piece I wrote back in November.
‘Jim Crow Joe’ Biden from Delaware
“The Associated Press reports in the Wilmington Star that Delaware’s United States senator, ‘Jim Crow Joe’ Biden, in a 2008 presidential campaign stop in the deep South of Columbia, S.C. told a Republican audience: ‘Biden noted Delaware was a border state and “a slave state that fought beside the North. That’s only because we couldn’t figure out how to get to the South – there were a couple of other states in the way.”
I heard the audio clip of it and it’s clear that there was a period after “African-American” in his statement. The transcript is technically inaccurate.
However, I still find his usage of that particular word (clean) offensive. I’m not surprised it oozed its way out of Biden’s mouth either, given his track record. At worst it was white-hood territory, at best it was arrogance – either way, he loses.
‘Clean’ is a longstanding favorite adjective of the arrogant class and it makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. Maybe it’s due to being called a dirty Mexican enough times, usually in “jest”
You can psychoanalyze the guy and add up his other comments. That’s legitimate.
But I think ‘clean’ meant well-dressed. I know all Senators are well-dressed, and I have no idea why Biden thinks it is important that Obama is not a rumpled Senator. But to turn this remark into some racist slap in the face just seems like what the right does to Kerry.
I’d rather talk about the bankruptcy bill than accuse Biden of having hate in his heart. I don’t think he does. I think he is just a middle-class white Catholic scrapper from Scranton, PA, who made it big and is smart as all hell, and he has his big-head, and his insecurities, and his limited perspective based on his insulated upbringing, and all that.
He’s basically a good guy that has some rather glaring faults. A racist? I don’t see it. At least, not from this remark.
to me that he is getting more slack than he deserves.
The whole context of the remarks was centered on Obama’s race to begin with. Whether it was intentional or not is something only Biden can truly answer, but its despicable either way imo. That’s why I say he loses either way.
Clean? CLEAN? That’s how you describe the hotel room you just stayed in over the past weekend, not one of your fellow Senators.
Yeah, but it also means “new”, “fresh”, “unsullied”, “no baggage”, “not corrupt”, “well-dressed”, “nice appearance”.
I think all of that was part of what Joey was trying to convey. I don’t think he meant that the shampoos regularly.
You come up with quotes about a clean slate… cleaning up baseball… clean money… clean campaigns… and a lot about clean air, water, fuel etc. He could very well have been talking about fellow politicians. It seems likely to me that he was referring to the public perception of Obama’s ethics.
And articulate? Come on! Yes, I understand that it’s a coded racist remark. But not always. In this case it’s one of Obama’s most notable characteristics. It’s his oratorial ability that has propelled him to the spotlight IMHO.
hung up on the ‘articulate’ bit in this particular instance because, you’re right, it is Obama’s signature trait. If he would not have given that speech at the 04 Convention, he wouldn’t be the rockstar that the media has made him out to be, imo.
That being said, I don’t think any of us except Biden knows what his intentions were with those remarks. We can speculate until the margins are blown.
I do think he’s an arrogant jerk who votes the corporate line before his constituency’s needs, so this is one of the last places to look for any defense of his rhetorical gaffs.
Agreed, with all of it. And this morning I’ve flip-flopped and agree that his remarks were incredibly condescending and inappropriate. I just don’t think Biden = Allen.
I had thought the “clean” comment referred to politically untainted by scandal of any sort. An issue for most all politicians.
But add in past comments by Biden compounded, for me, by his career long support of the Jim Crow drug war and Jim Crow Joe may not be such an unreasonable handle.
“Clean” – OMFG. Biden makes me embarrassed to be a Democrat.
He’s an inane clown. Forget him.
he’s an elitist racist. Period. This isn’t a “slip”, this is a backhanded appeal to Reagan Democrats … you know, the kind of resentful white folks that love them some Webb. Couple it with his other racially insensitive remarks, and it only reveals how deep-seated this attitude is with him.
It’s not cute, it’s not “refreshingly non-P.C.” … and PLEASE, if you consider yourself a liberal or a leftist, PLEASE quit repeating rightwing bullshit like “P.C.”. That is a term used by racists to shut up people trying to get equal treatment in a country structurally set up to DENY equal treatment. I want to throw something thru my TV everytime I see that effin’ Lou Dobbs commercial where he smirkingly says, “too often, political correctness is an attempt to control language.” Jerk is just mad that he can’t say “wetback” on the air.
Politically correct-another one of those semantic diversions for people as you said about Lou Dobbs who just wishes he could say ‘wetback’ on the air or any of the other words that aren’t PC..like faggot, nigger, chink and so on.
Making people who use ‘politically correct’ langauge an object of ridicule takes away from the fact that using PC isn’t really political but simply an aversion to using words that are bigoted, prejudicial and just plain sick and disgusting.
Booman, don’t try to justify Biden’s remark. Slip of the tongue or not, it’s clear that he has some deep-seated racial issues.
that’s not really clear to me, psi. If it were I wouldn’t defend him for a moment.
His remarks about Delaware being a slave state, his remark about Indians at 7-11s, and now this – to me, I think it’s a person who, at the very least, is a bit too insensitive about racial matters.
… such an idiot.
“Biden is a pure fuckhead” is the explanation.
“clean”…?
You know, I truly believe that what he thought was saying was that Obama was the first african-american politician who presented as mainstream enough and polished enough to appeal to an electorate that is suspicious of african-american politicians.
It really doesn’t matter.
It reflects Biden’s biggest political problem – Biden’s constituency is Tim Russert. Biden sold out working americans on bankruptcy because people who Biden takes seriously, people who really don’t give a shit about anything but the interests and intrigues of a predominantly white, male, rich and horribly incestuous political class, recognized that the political calculus made MBNA more important than ordinary americans and thought he did the right thing.
Biden announced before he’d ever spoken to Alito that he didn’t have a problem with him and expected he’d get through the committee – not a comment you’d expect the ranking minority member of judiciary to make – because politically, the calculus was right.
Biden sucked up to confederates because the calculus was right. Biden clearly had no idea that telling a room full of sucessful south asians that he saw them as characters on the Simpsons was a problem, because in Biden’s circles, everyone would have chuckled.
Biden probably thinks of himself as a real open-minded guy, because Biden’s life is not such that he gets challenged a whole lot. It’s been decades since he’s interacted with anyone who doesn’t either own him or call him sir. His glaring sense of lese majeste and entitlement is second only to Joe Lieberman’s, at least amongst people who are nominally on our side of the aisle.
If he thinks it’ll do him some political good to screw his base, his base is screwed. I’ll take his word for it that it’s not personal. I don’t care. I want a candidate who doesn’t see the primaries as That Which Stands Between Me and My Coronation.
So yeah, by his lights, I’m sure he didn’t mean it they way it clearly was going to be taken.
That he had no idea that it was going to be taken that way suggests that he might not be the future of a progressive party in a country that’s going to be majority-minority in a very few years.
We really don’t need another Lieberman.
I swear, Charlie Rangel needs to stage about six interventions I can think of in how to behave when you have seniority.
best comment I’ve seen in months.
Biden’s constituency is Tim Russert
Brilliant.
Now, is anyone surprised that we have a Jim Crow drug war oppressing urban minorities considering the fact that Joe Biden has been on the Senate Judiciary Committee for years?
Joe Biden is the face of the right-wing of the Democratic Party. The command and control of the Democratic Party. And I guarantee you all that Hillary Clinton isn’t much different considering how she likes to take credit to herself for Bill Clinton and the Democratic Party’s world record prison population.
Ever notince how most of the Democratic leaders are eager to attack Howard Dean every time he so much as implies a criticism of the Bush White House. But let some Jim Crow thug like Biden spew racist shit and those same Democratic leaders fall silent.
The Democrats need an entire new group of leaders. All of these drug warrior Democrats are really Jim Crow right-wingers.