So hard to imagine in 2000 that my nation and my people would be in this place today. I grew up in a time when my nation mourned Vietnam. When our vets huddled in broken groups at VA hospitals and we lost them and lost them and lost them some more and everybody said never again after seeing the broken and hearing what they broke and what broke them.
These military folk are very alien to me, but with each passing day they become more mine and I fit in here less and less because they need me more than you do. If being a liberal or a progressive or a Democrat has ever been about anything at all for me it is about compassion because things are always going to break and fall apart. There will be more wars because we are human beings and a lot more flawed than any of us can ever really imagine. The best I can hope for is that my nation doesn’t start any more or get involved in any after this.
Our soldiers and their families are in between a rock and hard place. My husband wasn’t ever going to go back to Iraq ever again until Haditha and America was fully awakened. War crimes in Iraq will not get a pass. See, that made it possible for my husband to do his job again without having to worry about any commander or peer getting away with doing a war crime number on anyone. When one soldier in a group has no give or budge on what is okay to do he/she changes the dynamic of everyone serving with them too. Bad things happen and continue to happen when no one speaks out.
How will we get out of Iraq and when? I don’t know. There are a zillion different scenarios and though each one of us hopes and believes that our ideas are the best I think all we can do from here is pray that what ever Gods hear all of us, they will not allow Iraq to go up like kindling and ignite the entire middle east. My husband does serve though every day and I never thought I would ever find myself standing here among the stressed and broken and so far from most of you. Awol soldiers go to jail. I wish this was Vietnam and the draft had them going lightly on deserters but it isn’t and they won’t. If you volunteered don’t think for one minute you won’t go to jail the minute you go Awol and they get you. Each soldier must decide where he/she will do the most good in the grand scheme in shutting this sucker down. Watada is doing his good where he is, he is giving his full measure. Please keep in mind as things unravel further that 70% of the military doesn’t want jack to do with this insanity called Iraq anymore and they are giving their full measure too. It is a nightmare gone all wrong though.
I’m sorry for my sensitivity and my neediness at times. That is who military families are at the moment and because so many of you are not happy with your military I suppose that doesn’t help much. I used to be able to balance it out better but it has gone on too long – this Iraq mess, friends on the list of the dead today. They didn’t get out last year and go to work for the contractors making the big bucks so I know they died giving their full measure as well. Hollow eyed, bleak expressions, nobody in the neighborhood flies their flag anymore.
I need to write, but somewhere that isn’t yours because I don’t think you can handle my writing and I can’t handle that you can’t handle my writing. I live in a sort of no mans land right now, I think most of the military is. I don’t think it’s as bad as the contractors family up the street making the big bucks because she seems to be drunk 24/7. If you guys think you dislike me sometimes, I couldn’t hold a candle to how much she probably feels disliked around my place. I want to tell them to shove their $12,000 a month up their ass. Probably much like you sometimes want to tell me to shove my husband’s and the family’s sacrifices up our ass over something like Iraq.
Someday we will heal. I know we will, and we will all sit at the same table again and break bread. We will shrug and feel sad and hug about what we all endured when this mess is over. I saw that after Vietnam when the nation began to assimilate everything that had happened.
We can’t fix what has already been broken and destroyed. All that we can do every day from here on out is our best. Knowing that George W Bush is going to be remembered as the worst president in our nation’s history doesn’t put balm on anything for any of us when we are busy surviving him. It’s hard for any of us to heal when each day is a fresh wound. I have no brave words to share. If driving to the Son of a Bitch’s ranch in Crawford and getting arrested would change anything this time, end a surge and start redeployments back to the states, I would be on the road now instead of writing to you all.
I did meet someone though on my trip to George’s and she was such a special lady. She warned me! She told me! This is going to be long and it is going to be hard and that Crawford was just a beginning. She was too polite and well spoken to add that this was really going to suck a lot too. Nah! She didn’t need to say that. She warned me enough so that I wouldn’t get too shocked when it became very hard and very long, she told me just what I needed to know to stay on this road. My husband said that the Crawford bunch is whole bunch of loonies, we were a big bunch of revolutionaries desperately in need of some evolutionaries to help us out with the day to day things this struggle requires. All I can say to him is, “So What!” We’re trying to find them on the road to that first supper.
you can’t handle my writing
We certainly can’t handle your cussing and spewing and badmouthing, nor should we have to.
I understand though. This is not an easy place where I am and it isn’t an easy place where you are. I acknowledge this and I honor today that everything that exists in life and nature does not exist in harmony. I’m okay with that and I’m okay if you want to tell me off here a little bit more if it would make you feel somewhat better. I am feeling a lot better and I see no reason why I should be the only one.
Angry? No. Disgusted? Yes.
You blame us for not being able to ‘handle your writing’…the height of arrogance…geez, you just don’t get it do you?
something between the two of us. It is not my wish that it’s that way. If there is anything I can do or give to you to ease your anger towards me I will give it, if I knew what it was.
That’s so sweet of you Tracy… But, no, I don’t need anything right now. Not from someone who refuses to accept my self assessment of my own emotional state. The fact that you can’t accept me at my word and that, instead, you insist on making me into an angry commenter is what is wrong here. Disgust is quite different from anger, I assure you.
I think Tracy was trying to make ammends and you answered with sarcasm and derision. I felt that she was sincere and deserved the same in return – that it might have been one of those times when silence is golden. This is exactly how things escalate.
Umm, thanks but no thanks SN. I have no reason to believe that she is sincere. I don’t know her personally, all I can judge her by is how she has acted here with her words. In the past she has been alternately very nasty and then very sweet. I have no need to enable continued cycles of that and I actually don’t think it’s in her best interest either.
And if I can’t insist on being taken at my word, I’d like to know just what, in your opinion, may I insist upon?
You may insist on being treated respectfully, which it seemed like she was doing.
And the behavior you spoke of: being nasty one minute, and sweet the next? – doesn’t that sort of speak to you of something? I mean even if it was someone I didn’t know beans about I think I’d be like ‘whoa, step away from this one there’s definitely something up.’
Just my opinion. And to be clear, I met MT once – I do not know her very well. But there are definitely some danger signs that I recognize in people.
Is it not disrespectful of her to continue to characterize me as angry when I am not? How far down the road of having honest discourse with someone will I get if I let that person tell themselves and others lies about me? Doesn’t the concept of respect include honesty? It does in my book.
I actually do have some sympathy for her as a human being, but that does not mean that I have to passively accept being mischaracterized in order to tiptoe around her and make nicey-nice. And I don’t accept the premise that someone who has a difficult life can repeatedly violate me and my friends without me confronting them.
Tracy, it’s not you that we cannot take, it’s your lashing out and misunderstanding what folks are saying when they are trying to calm you down. Lots of good folk came to try to diffuse the different situations you engaged in with others and you turned on them with terrible biting and bitter accusations.
Just as you have recognized that you might have misunderstood me, as you said in my diary, perhaps you have misunderstood others, please reflect on this and perhaps then apologize to them.
That being said I think you would be wise to spend less time on political sites in general. I know I just have to take breaks at time.
All this do not exist in harmony but that is no reason for you to not be harmonious yourself.
Oops, that should be “all things do exist in harmony,” above.
Best wishes to you Tracy.
ah shucks, and forgive me for this but it should be “all things do not exist in harmony,”, I swear this is the last correction. LOL
trying to say to me when I was upset. I always felt like you were saying that it was okay for people to call my husband a war criminal because that was their opinion. I’m sorry I misunderstood. My daughter is shocked that I would care what people call her dad, she says it isn’t like me to care so much about opinions. Too stressed I suppose.
P, just so you understand me better, I am very judgmental of where I do my swearing, but I can let loose like a sailor of where I learned my language of swearing. I, at times, have forgotten where I was when I let loose too. I got so angry, but then, I was pushed to it…I regret it to this day, but I take responsibility for that which I do, as well. I am sure we all get those days and to that point that we just can not hold back any longer…I respect your views as I do the others here. It is called respect that I have to look beyond the way language is used. I look at the content of what is being said for what it means, as opposed to the way it is said.
Hope you are doing well. I would like to see yet another good diary on a topic other than this. You are so capable of such good work. When can I expect this upcoming?..;o)
Hi Brenda! How’s things? I hope all is well with you.
It is called respect that I have to look beyond the way language is used. I look at the content of what is being said for what it means, as opposed to the way it is said.
I appreciate that. It is true that we all do some cursing from time to time. It’s not just the words, like you say, it is the intent behind them, too. And down here in the South, there is a difference between using a curse word and cussin’ somebody out, as I’m sure you well know. In my original comment above, I was definitely referring to the cussin’ kind of exchange, not merely the use of a curse word or two, just to clarify.
As for me writing more than a few comments from time to time, I’m not sure. I have few half-finished diaries on a variety of topics. I’ll try hard to get one up soon, and I appreciate your kind words. đŸ™‚
Please don’t ever feel that you are alone, that you are the only one here who feels that pain of loved ones put in harm’s way for no good reason.
I want you, and everyone else for that matter, to know precisely where I am coming from on this. If you have read Jim Webb’s book Born Fighting you already know. Those are my people too. Military service is almost a given in my family. Just ticking off the ones that come easily to mind, my father and my uncles, my grandfather and his brothers, the male cousins I can think of off the top of my head, probably nine out of ten have worn a uniform at some time in their lives. My oldest son is on a destroyer in the Pacific right now.
Probably half of them saw combat in one conflict or another some time during their service. A hitch in the military has always been considered a rite of passage for the men in my family. And increasingly for the women in our family as well. More importantly, it has always been considered an honor and an honorable thing to do, to wear the colors of our country in time of need. Not one of us has ever willingly shirked what we considered a duty when our country called. Not one.
A few of us, and I am one, did not serve. Not because we didn’t want to but because we could not. Medical reasons. Special family circumstances. One thing or another beyond our control. But not one of us ever walked away because we chose not to serve, or because we were afraid, or because we questioned the honor of military service. That has never been our way. Not one of us ever had other priorities.
Someone way wiser that me said a sword does not choose what it is used to cut. So too, our men and women in uniform do not choose the wars they are thrust into, the battles they will fight. When they put on the uniform they go where their country sends them. They carry out the missions they are given. They come home in one piece if they can. We can ask no more of them than that.
It is our duty as citizens to make sure they are never sent into the wrong war. Never asked to fight the wrong battle. Never asked to give their lives or their bodies or their honor to fight in the wrong place or the wrong time. That is our duty, not theirs. In my opinion we can have no higher or more important duty than that. And if we fail in that duty we must blame ourselves, not the men and women we place in harm’s way.
I’m so glad I don’t leave here with you having a heavy heart toward me. Be Well, Take Good Care, I will see you on the flip side of all of this.
Just my $.02 but I think you should leave the blog. I think you need it. And I’m not saying that as one of those people that someone referenced above who “tried to calm you down” by saying basically, you’re a sick puppy and for your own good you should see a psychiatrist. To hear that from someone who doesn’t know shit about you is the height of condescension I personally would want to figuratively slap them. But to hear from people who (sort of) know you and (genuinely) care about you, I think you’d be wise to take it to heart.
I’m worried about your anger because it’s disproportionate to the circumstances and I think that’s a warning sign that your stress is out of control. When you can no longer turn your back on people who will never agree with you, you know it’s time to give yourself a big talking to. You’re taking things too much to heart and you’re allowing people who don’t give a shit about you or your opinion to live rent-free in your head. Your head doesn’t have room for that with all that is going on in your life. Let it go.
There are people here who are never going to agree with you. And you are never going to agree with them. There is no middle ground to be hashed out. It doesn’t exist.
You have my email, heck, you know where I live. Take the friends you have made here at BT and vent to us.
Your obvious passion and your communication skills would be really great if you joined a military families for peace type group. I know they’d die to have you out there for them.
families have almost on call counselors right now. We went several times last year when we had problems with Bean, military families are under extreme stress right now and the counselors can’t fix it. It is just the way it is right now. One of them told us when we wanted him to fix our stress that he can’t fix the living that some people have to do some of the time. I appreciate very much that you never told me to “get some help”. That’s the sucky thing for the military right now, there is no help that makes the daily stress of the whole deal go away. There was only one other time in my life when I could write anything other than going through this and that was when I was pregnant with Bean. I was taking an advanced writing class in college and for the first time it wasn’t something that I had to endure. Later I understood that I was terrified about being a mom. I think writing about things and how I feel is really cathartic for me at this time, so I will and I will make it through this. I’m sorry that I can’t be the person that everyone would like for me to be right now, perhaps next time some other time. All I can do is make it through this because that is the only real choice. I don’t want to hurt anybody though going through this and that is what is happening on the pond. Thank you for your friendship đŸ˜‰ I cherish it very much today đŸ˜‰
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I’m glad you are following Bean’s advice. I won’t weep your leaving BooMan’s Place. Wish you and all family members a safe life’s journey and be well.
I just don’t want my daughter’s diary full of anything that sucks is all. She doesn’t deserve that damn it and fucking shame on them!
by Militarytracy on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 08:39:48 AM PST
"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."I always found your posts and diaries well balanced and very well informed.
Be Well Everyone. If I hurt you I’m sorry. If I misunderstood you I’m sorry.
Tracy, since I was not online to see or read what went on, I am at a loss of words to even say anything. I am so very saddened to know that anyone here has to defend themselves to anyone.
As you have to know I support you and your family, for I was one once too. I most certainly know what and how it feels like. Hell, Tracy, I too was abused by society while in uniform. I used to say this “don’t mean nothing”! That made me grow to the point I see things much differently than most do. As most veterans do, we will always defend the military up to and including doing the right thing. It is always those who do not do the right things that make it hard on the rest of the society. When they recruit gang members and such as they, then I am very concerned as to what our military will eventually become.
We all read things that stir and curdle our blood about the military. I have been there as well…it is after all our military. We pay their salary. It is our tax dollars that you and I have consumed. So we owe society a certain amount of showing that there are good ppl around in the military, as opposed to those like the ones who make bad choices and do the wrong things…I consider most of the brass wrong headed. But you see, I do not know what goes on int he pentagon. I do know some of the ppl who have served there and I must say it is a different group of minds to be sure! I too have had to just accept and go on. I do not know the answers, and neither do the others here ont his site. They I am sure would like to assure all of us that they do have answers, but contrary to all belief, there are no answers to some of these dilemmas. It is a matter of working through this with the most utmost conviction that we all do that which make us feel we are doing the right thing, as we see it. If they have concerns, they need to talk to their congresscritters not blame the military…If we REALLY stood up to this evil in our country, we most certainly would make a very big difference. Unless they shoot us all down in our tracks, we are the government. We need to all make the difference! Collectively! United we make a difference, but divided we fall. This can not be allowed to happen for us, whether we are military or not. It involves us ALL! It is a simple as this. So each of have to decide where we fall on this side of. I come here to learn not to fight. This sight gives me ammunition to do the fighting I need to speak towards the better good. I have come close to loosing it here and I have had to just stand down and then get back to the fight that I think I can do.
What ever it was that caused this whole thing needs to stop now and get back on the path of doing the right things for the good fight. We ought to be fighting the fight against this government which is not mine nor is it most of ours here, or else we would not be here doing this thing today. All I can say to you is good luck, my dear friend. I wish you well and to your family I wish you the best of all endeavors you decide to do. I wish your husband the best and that God look over him and protect him and give him the right thoughts as he goes throughout his job on a daily basis. Many hugs to you and your family….I am always here if you should ever need me…that is what the military has taught me, we are around for each other no matter what….right???? :o)
You and I haven’t interacted much, but when we have it’s often been at loggerheads, because I am critical of military systems, and that’s understandably been very hard for you.
In all honesty, I can greatly empathise with your position. I know if I was in your shoes I would desparately need people to talk to, and equally find it almost impossible not to have my ‘hot buttons’ pushed (often ones I probably wouldn’t even know I had), and lash out. I know in similar circumstances all my best intentions have been stretched and broken by my inability to control incredibly strong emotional reactions.
Looking back, I realise I asked too much of myself, and I wonder if you have too. If you have, more power to you at realising, because as I found out, it has terrible consequences for others, and once our needs are holding others to ransom in some way, it’s time to re-evaluate, and change.
So I look at what you’re asking of yourself – the ability to articulate political views and personal insights with a husband constantly in danger in the worst political war in the last 30 years, plus be able to objectively assess what others have to say, remembering they too are having strong emotional reactions – and I think, something has to give.
You’re in an extraordinarily stressful place. My heart goes out to you. I don’t doubt you will look back one day and cringe at what you wrote at times, because I have no doubt that you are a far better person than that. I offer no judgement.
Take care of yourself and your family. Find someone(s) you can write to without prejudice, and myself I’m fond of screaming into a towel as a good ‘pressure valve release’. I’m glad you’ve got counselling available to you. Get out in nature, nothing heals like it I find.
Be well, Tracey, and good luck.
cheers, Imogen (myriad)
See ya all later. My self-imposed time out is here.
Hugs to all
Shirl
Just make sure you come back when it’s over.
MT got way paranoid and flipped out on……um everyone? My son has been on the computer playing RuneScape all weekend. He is hanging over my shoulder as I type. He is very SPOILED! Hint hint son. This was about how military personnel are perceived? I’ll have a chance later tonight or tomorrow to catchup. But if that is somewhat what happened possibly give me a four Blueneck or MT. I don’t know what the Hell is going on. Not that I need to know but I’m really in the dark here.
Me too, and I woke up to this and found I need to read here more often it seems…;o( Things just pass me by while I am attending to the real life for me…
I am so sad to hear this from anyone here that is part of our family. When you catch up on this please let me know what happened, for no one will indulge me in finding out. I am just picking up bits and pieces. Which is not a good thing to do to know the full story.
Well Brenda I think the replies to my comment really cleared things up for us. đŸ™‚
But you know what I’m going to go against my morbid curiosity and let this one lie. I don’t want to know, obviously a lot of people are upset.
kindasorta. You really don’t want to know all the details, I don’t think…
This was about how military personnel are perceived?
It’s about how the slippery slope is directly before us.
and stay close to your family. Sometimes stepping out or back is the best thing to do.
In my church today, they said a prayer that the U.S. military in Iraq and Afghanistan will be made safe.
I was disgusted and did not participate.
Why?
Because it was not balanced with a call for prayer for the civilians of those two countries we have invaded, nor was it balanced with even a general call for peace.
Every time I see a Support Our Troops sticker, I pull my gun, metaphorically speaking.
All human lives are equal. American militarism denies that truth.
Oh damn. Once again I have made the mistake of posting after reading the diary but before reading the comments.
Tracy, I have often enjoyed your posts here very much, and have learned from them.
I sincerely wish you and your family well, and I hope you’ll be back calmer and happier before too long.
stand up and express your disgust?
Hey stat…. talking about the military can be difficult enough at times, but it gets even worse when religion’s added to the mix. I had to give a 2 to your comment because I would think it’s obvious why any respectful person wouldn’t interrupt a church service, regardless of political views. Whether your question is rhetorical or not, it betrays a lack of respect for the parent poster that seems out of line to me. Especially given the seriousness and close personal nature of the subjects to the people in this thread.
He was in “his” church & didn`t participate in the prayer. He was showing what he felt in his own group. If he had gone further & stood up & told “his” group how he felt, it may not have disrupted them, but maybe, brought them closer together, in also praying for all people in this war, no. I didn`t think stat was off base in asking. It could be a good thing imo.
From my limited viewpoint as a longtime lurker and quite up on the other discussions around blogtopia, I see the problem as being that one poster on this website has a problem with people talking to her, and the guy who runs things is on her side.
It feels like this new user is continuing things by bringing the church into it. It feels like a direct contrast to the military as an institution discussion that I believe the Booman brought up in a thread? And a provocative statement looking to inflame or justify?
I am really sorry to have inserted myself here but I’ve been following all the events (as best I can!) and some people seem to hint they have knowledge of this particular user profile that fits what I have observed lately.
Me? Because I most certainly did not bring the church into this discussion. Arminius has been here a hell of a lot longer than me. And you.
Oh I do apologize, I’ve been lurking here for ages. I certainly mean no disrespect to users old or new.
What I meant was you seemed to want to bring the church and why someone wouldn’t resist the church and that was in the contrast to into the discussion about speaking out that the diarist was talking about the military. A direct conflation of church and state. Sorry, seemed like a natural extension.
sometimes lurkers register at the wrong time. Just ask Teach313 – he already e-mailed me to make sure I wasn’t MT. I’m not. That doesn’t change the meaning behind my question, though. Why is it OK if Arminius doesn’t stand up and speak “truth to power” when I have seen more extreme purity demanded of others? BECAUSE SUCH PURITY IS USELESS. And I don’t judge Arminius because of it.
So, have fun with your blog(s). I wish you all the best, and might I add that you all might want to work on your welcoming techniques? Cuz, from my end, they “ain’t so good.” Best wishes, user 4435.
My email:
First off, welcome to the blog. New voices are always welcome. Things are kind of touch and go here right now. The diarist you are commenting on has an unpleasant history. In my opinion military tracy is destroying the blog. I wanted to request that you back out of the diary you are commenting on. Take some time to get o the place a little. Suspicions and mistrust are running high right now. Your pattern of ratings is making it appear as if you are military tracy. Sadly, such behavior on her part would surprise me. I wish tensions weren’t so high right now, but the fact is that they are. Again, please consider staying out off the mess with MT until you know better what is going on. Why don’t you consider writing a diary of your own about something that matters to you? I would happily recommend any such diary. The blog could use new voices that aren’t dealing with the current mess.
I hope you stick with us. It’s not like this usually. Let the veterans take the heat and get the scars as we try to salvage the blog.
Statistic’s response:
Aw, geez. You’re serious, huh? God, it’s like third grade. Look, I know all about MT. And Spiderleaf. And Damnit Janet. And DTF. And Supersoling. And Marisacat. I am a LURKER, fercrissakes. I know what’s going on and it pisses me off. Guess I picked the wrong time to register. Tell everybody I said, “Good luck.”
statistic
PS. Your MLK, Jr. diary crushed me. I admire you – you are a good teacher. I wish you well.
n/t
Did you ask permission of statistic to post his email? If not, this is a big no-no.
Just trying to illustrate that one cannot always demand purity. I understand why Arminius did not stand up and speak out – I can honestly say that I most certainly would have done things just the same as he. I meant no judgement and no offense, and if any was taken, I apologize.
You’re right statistic. Purity is an ideal and an absolute, and only fools will waste the impure reality around them if they hold the real world to ideal measures. I think the difference, though, is one of power. When we see pain, hatred, or injustice, we must always ask how we can confront it. Leaders, by definition, are in a position to help stop the spread of such evils. When we don’t have the upper hand – when we’re just one of the sheep in the congregation – we must choose carefully how to create a positive influence on the situation. This is as true of a church as it is for any community group. Or for the military. Or for the blogosphere.
Now, if Arminius was the pastor, I could understand your question. As it stands, I still think it doesn’t belong.
n/t
Please contact me. My email address is Teach313 at mac dot com. I would rather continue this conversation offline.
Statistic, Such words are cheap. Church is not a public square. Today there was an unusually sacred quality to the service. The prayer I objected to was just one throwaway in the middle of a long sequence of other prayers. It would have been harmful (and, more importantly, futile) to make a public protest. It would also have been shamefully disrespectful to many good people who aren’t responsible for what I object to.
However, my wife and I have indeed decided to contact the pastor, determine who writes those common prayers, and to register a protest. I definitely will make my feelings known throughout the community.
I have one question, Tracy: are you still trying to out me?
I’ll warn you once and only once: if you do that you place my life in possible danger from a former abusive spouse. See? We have all had our own life dramas going on. You’re not the only one.
And oh, btw, I don’t know “all of your personal information”. Therefore, I couldn’t have given it to anyone so stop lying about me. I just found that post yesterday and I was absolutely appalled that you would ever have considered such vengeance. I don’t care how angry you were with me. That’s no excuse.
I thought is was necessary to enlighten the rest of the community about this fact.
I’m with Oui on this. Your daughter supposedly spoke out quite loudly and clearly. I wonder why you have chosen to ignore that.
I would never try to “out” you. Just thought that maybe my lawyer needed to talk to your lawyer about you giving my personal information to paramilitary people killing loving types is all. nuff said. I didn’t want to say good bye to anybody so a new screaming match could start. Just let it die and go away for goodness sakes. That was ages ago so I know why you bring it up now.
Searching for someone’s identity sounds like a prelude to outing to me given your history of personal attacks. I take outing seriously. We’ve lost good people from this site because they do not feel that BooMan has not adequately addressed the outing issue. The black marks are piling up, MT. Take your own advice and get offline. I’m taking my own and ignoring the rest of this diary.
Don’t you DARE try to make yourself the victim here again.
If you don’t want screaming matches sweetie, stop lying and having wild tantrums. It’s that simple.
You may still be fooling some people here but you stopped fooling me a long time ago.
And no, military counselors can’t “fix” you. You need to make the choice to do that yourself.
That’s all I have to say to you.
May 27th, 2006. Just checking, because that seems like 9 months ago.
Hi Second Nature, I don’t mean to jump into some fray here, but it appears the comment catnip linked to was dated October of 2006.
That being said, I certainly would not want to give the impressoin I support any attempts to find out peoples real identities, no matter how long ago it was!!!
And that’s somehow significant because?
Man, this thread is becoming the mobetterest ever.
I’m mobetta than you, neener, neener, neener!
That you two can make snide jokes like that, at a time when there are a good number of faithful community members who have contributed one hell of a lot to this website and community for a long time, are feeling real anguish over all that’s happened here, simply stuns me.
Enjoy your chuckle.
faithful community members or kewl sleeper cell community members? I’m confused. Seriously, I’m not sure committed blog wreckers qualify as faithful community members. I just have a hard believing it.
Whether it is James saying I get kickbacks from Kos, Marisacat saying I get kickbacks from Tracy, Parker saying I get kickbacks from Chris Bowers who gets kickbacks from the DLC, or the whole crew over there that thinks I can’t think for myself, I really do not see then as faithful members of this community.
But I do see a lot of faithful members of this community that are trying to make things work better. They’re not posting over at mobetta, they’re posting here.
And don’t forget to check who has simply walked away. I am posting there, for now, as a place to share my grief over what is happening here. I am not part of any plot. I have not attacked in you any way. I am upset that you are not taking the situation around militarytracy seriously.
Damn it! I must get some sleep.
Teach313, please read my comment again.
That is the tip of the iceberg. That blog exists to discuss the shortcomings (imagined and otherwise) of blogging communities.
Let me give you one example just so you get the general idea.
Somewhere in the depths of a thread who knows how long ago and who knows on what blog, Tracy made a comment that she sends me money whenever she can, or something like that.
I think what she meant, since she has never sent me a dime directly, is that she buys a coffee mug or a t-shirt or buys a book through my affiliate.
But if you go over to mobetta you’ll discover that I haven’t banned Tracy because of the healthy stipend she provides me with.
This is just a small sample of that stuff that the loyal members are writing and lapping up over there.
So, my skepticism about their sincerity when they come over here and lament what is happening to this community is just a tad bit hard to overcome.
And it has nothing to do with whether I am taking issues surrounding MT seriously. I am not taking ALL of them seriously. And certainly not from that crew.
I know about the claims made by people on mobetta. I don’t care about those claims. I am not as new here as you think. KS and I watched this site from the beginning. I joined quite a while before I participated. The history doesn’t matter. I’m not upset about old grievances, nor I am taking sides in the attacks between you and them. I don’t like to join groups, but I joined BT, and I have invested a great deal of time and energy here. I have become attached to this place and the people here in spite of a lifetime of remaining outside of groups. I do not want to lose this group, but I see it collapsing in front of my eyes.
You have been notably quiet this weekend. It did not help that you sort of dropped in after watching “Curb your Enthusiasm,” after many off us had spent all day working for this community. I want you to take this seriously. This is not about old charges and who said what when. It is about whether this site will be held hostage to militarytracy and her needs. She cannot get the help she obviously needs here. This isn’t that kind of community. No online hugs will do it. It’s way past tough love time. Supporting her actions is enabling at it worst.
I’ve said enough. I need to turn off the computer at get away from this.
I found the Mobetta site today from a link on Manny’s blog. Is Manny out to tear down this community? Teach came over to post after he wondered what I had found. Super was there, and lacking any other way to contact him, I wanted to speak to him so I did. Yes, there were real radicals there. (That last sentence is sarcastic, in case you don’t understand me. So is the name of the blog.)
The people I saw and spoke to there, included at least three people, not counting Teach, who have worked over the past three days HERE, posting suggestions for saving this community. There was another who regularly helps put on a significant annual event that attracts people to this website. If you choose to define everyone who is there as a person aimed at destroying this community, you can. That will be another misjudgment on your part.
Yes, I saw one person whom you have banned. One person who you posted two angry diaries about, which included erroneous assumptions on your part, made a brief comment. And a couple of other people.
The vast majority of comments that I heard were of anguish, hurt, fear, and helplessness in the face of the meltdown that they see here. I miss those people already, BooMan. I miss this community, which I see disentegrating, while you make silly remarks. It is particularly painful to see that you make these childish remarks before you make serious responses to the diary that you posted earlier Sunday.
That’s where you should be, reading your own diary and responding to the serious suggestions there. Not making foolish potshots in this one.
i’m going to be gracious responding to this because I know that you intend it in the best way.
You will discover that true blog wrecking is an art. It is performed repeatedly, by a very small number of individuals. And it is astonishing how much patience goes into it.
Almost everyone that has ever been banned here was banned at Daily Kos first, and then at MyDD. And many (I don’t keep track) of the people that have been banned here were subsequently banned MLW. Each and every time they were banned they hurt the community because they had made friends. And they then went off and tried to pull as many friends with them as they could.
It’s actually something that took me a while to figure out. It seemed like to much effort. But then I stopped banning them. And guess what? they disappeared. For months at a time they would be active on other blogs. Or gone altogether.
And then at the first whiff of controversy BOOM they were back, and all over it, and stirring the pot, and making accusations on other blogs, and lamenting the poor state this community has come to.
And many of the people that are participating with them don’t see them the way I see them because they don’t see as much of the picture and they haven’t come to realize that serial blog wrecking actually exists.
But it does. And the best way to deal with it actually to refuse to ban them. But I have to admit, it can work the other way around too.
So, enjoy mobetta. Ask everyone there, the longtimers, how many blogs they’ve been banned from. Some people that are there commenting are not blog wreckers. Some blog wreckers are just kind of strange people that obsess on meta and read back through archives to discover any hint of biographical information that can be stored up and used for a rainy day when they might attack a blogger.
Whatever. It’s a sick place and I advise against spending time there thinking you are seeing something real.
I haven’t been banned from any blogs, FYI.
And MoBetta was set up to talk about meta issues away from these blogs so those issues didn’t clog up the diaries here or elsewhere.
You only see it as “sick” because you don’t like criticism of your blog. You and I have been down that road before over your ridiculous Alan Dershowitz post when you had a fit about how I wrote about it on my blog – as if this blog out to somehow be immune from criticism. Funny though, when Tracy runs over to dkos (as she has several times) to bash your blog, it’s no big deal.
If people want to know what MoBetta is about, they’re welcome to stop by because your description is somewhat lacking.
This is simply untrue. Or rather, you are conflating two separate groups of people and attempting to use one to smear the other.
As a mo betta “longtimer”, I’ll just say that I’ve never been banned from any blog at all. Of the old timers on the site… I believe Ductape was banned from Democratic Underground, but nowhere else; I don’t believe dove has been banned from anywhere; I really doubt kansas was banned from any site, but I could check with her and see if she’s contracted mad blogger disease; katiebird… nope. brinn was banned from here, but I know of nowhere else (not kos and not MLW); James, nope; scribe.. nope. spiderleaf… from here recently, don’t know about other blogs but i doubt it. supersoling… I think he’d be surprised too to learn he’s been banned everywhere.
Etc, etc, etc… I could go down the line, but suffice it to say that your post leaves a lot to be desired in the accuracy department.
Mo betta was created to take the meta off of the blogs in question and bring it to a place where people could just vent, not get banned or anything… and actually, that’s where the blog got its tagline, when Tracy came and vented to her hearts content, calling us serial blog wreckers and psycho vandals (I admit to being partial to that name) and saying we were going to send al qaeda or hezbollah or someone or other to shoot her family and all sorts of really rational stuff – but she wasn’t banned or anything, even from there… anyway, not all venters left the blogs they visit, some came, vented, cried, whatever and went back to the larger communities.
The place has actually been pretty much inactive for months until, once again, events occurred (oddly enough involving the same person that sent people fleeing from the site last time) and people once again needed a safe place to talk, cry, mourn or rage.
You may not like what is said there, especially about you or this blog (although, as has been made clear in the past, you are welcome to come and dispute anything said there, as you have in the past), but there is no reason to attempt to turn what is basically a place for disaffected or distressed people to into some grand conspiracy, or to imply or state outright things that are untrue about the participants.
Thank you for being gracious, especially when I sense that you don’t want to be.
I have never been banned from any place, Booman. I am certain that most of the people I was speaking to today have not been banned elsewhere, either. There are tons of folks at DK that I can’t stand, for example, but I do read and post there. I don’t care to put a place through some sort of litmus test when I see people there I want to talk to.
As to reading/joining blogs where previously banned people are:
Martin, I’m not being pulled into a dissident group to overthrow this site. I don’t want to leave. Teach does not want to leave. No one is e-mailing us trying to get us to leave here. It should be obvious that Teach and I are not easily influenced. The friends that we have who have left BT, have simply left – quietly. No banning, no histrionics, no being pulled away into other, dissident blogs, no cabals trying to destroy this site.
And I am quite capable of knowing what is going on in how other people react – I’ve had many years of dealing with difficult people professionally and clinically; that’s my field, after all. Yes, I do see people being pulled away when persons are banned. But there is less of that when the reasons for banning are relatively clear, and banning is done without excessive anger.
But that is not my point. I have little interest in what has gone before except as a guide to what is going to happen to this community now and whether it will survive in to the future. Your response to what’s going on is my point.
As a blog owner, you are going to have to ban people. The best strategy is to ignore them thereafter. If people who have been banned elsewhere come here and cause trouble, I don’t understand why you haven’t banned them here, also.
My advice: Ignore their diaries, or don’t read them unless you are feeling good enough to hear what they might be saying that is a genuine constructive criticism, or is misinformation which you may need to correct. It would not hurt, for example, to explain the funding of the blog in the FAQ. I certainly don’t think you are “on the take” from KOS, etc, etc. But many people do still harbor the illusion that blogs such as this are somehow able to run on thin air or that they make tons of money. Blog members and readers need to be informed somewhere of the reality. They aren’t at present.
What blog/community members need:
What I see is the lack of firm protections being offered to community members. As it is, some people here feel that they may be repeatedly baited and bullied, that they will not be protected against outing, that they will not be promptly defended when they are attacked in the most hostile and baseless fashion. You need to clearly let people know that they have these protections, and then act on them. These protections also need to be laid out somewhere, simply.
And banning, when it does occur, really has to be done more impersonally than it was this past week. The contrast between banning Spiderleaf after a very long argument and not banning MT after her incredible outpouring of hostility toward Super, totally without cause, is shocking to so many people. I am not saying that Spider is pure as the driven snow or that MT doesn’t need help and support. Those concerns, frankly, are beside the point, given the banning of one and the apparent indulgence of the other with another warning.
I am left wondering if your anger might result in one of us being banned – like now, in challenging and critizing you. And I wonder just what kind of attack would cross the line before you would banish someone who attacks another community member.
I am still amazed that you cannot see how disturbing this is to people here.
And I am through, as I have to go to work in the morning.
As I recall we hashed that one out months before MoBetta even was conceived. I also seem to recall that I not only retracted that particular claim but apologized to you as well. ‘Tis all a matter of public record – can still be found somewhere on the old version of my humble blog.
I realize that I’m letting facts get in the way of the narrative, but seemed necessary lest any reader get the wrong impression.
Carry on.
There are a whole lot of people waiting to see how will handle this. This is serious shit. Snap out of it.
do you have any idea what I am refering to or are you just lecturing me?
Are you familiar with Mo Betta META – A Kewl Sleeper Cell of Serial Blog Wreckers. Because if you aren’t you will be missing the irony of that crew infestating this thread.
“infestating”?
Seems to me you took this outing issue pretty damn seriously when I e-mailed you about it on Saturday. Or did you? Now I wonder.
If you call asking Tracy if she’s still trying to out me “infestating” and just laugh about it in public, I suppose that will give others a fairly good idea about how seriously you might take their concerns as well.
catnip, why are you posting here? I thought you had mobetta for a reason and I thought you promised not to muck up threads here. If you need to talk to Tracy about legal issues I’m you can arrange anonymous email accounts to communicate through.
It’s not something I want to get involved in. I listened to you and I promised you not to do anything that might endanger you anonymity. What more do you want?
I see. So asking Tracy a question here equals mucking up a thread?
It’s not something I want to get involved in.
Then why did you?
And, FYI (and hers) there are no “legal issues” here. Her paranoia only makes it so to her. She somehow believes this so-called “paramilitary” person was out to get her because in her twisted mind, I gave him “all of her personal information”. So she was going to contact her lawyer with my info supposedly to do what? Go after me for hiring a flipping hitman? Can you imagine?? I sure as hell can’t.
That’s just like when she told us at MoBetta last year that we should get in touch with our supposed “hezbollah” sniper friends because we probably wanted them to go after her family.
People need to know this Booman. She’s unhinged. And, frankly, I consider that dangerous.
So while you and CG don’t take this seriously or want to get involved, fine. Perhaps the veil needs to be lifted here on what’s really been going on because this sure as hell isn’t about poor Tracy’s feelings getting hurt. Last year it was “my husband’s going to lose his job if I keep coming to BT”. What happened to that excuse? And now – she says her daughter posted that Dear Mom diary asking her to leave, runs off to dkos to whine and bash your blog and she’s still back here. Why? Do you ever even ask yourself that?
The larger picture isn’t about me…or her…it’s about you, Martin, and how you choose to deal with the situation. People have gone out of their way to help you out this weekend with this serious situation because they still want this place to work. How can they take you seriously if you think that my posting a warning in this thread about just how unglued someone is is just met with a hearty whatever and a shrug? What kind of example does that set for them when they wonder how seriously you might take their concerns? Or maybe some of them just don’t care anymore because they think this is all just petty. Well it sure as hell isn’t petty to me.
I had every right to ask that question of Tracy and to challenge her response to it. That was my life I was talking about and there was no need for you to jump in but you did and here we are. I want to be safe and others ought to know that they might be at risk if they challenge her as well. That’s based on facts – her own words – supported by links. If you don’t want to get involved, just move along.
You’ll find a lot of new, frustrated BT people there. Including me, for what it’s worth. I’ve spent most of my waking hours this weekend trying to resolve things here. Your comment wasn’t ironic, it was dismissive. Follow your link to mo betta. You might be surprised who is there. I’m not lecturing you. I’ve never met you, but I respect what you started here. But others have helped build it and you are driving them away by not taking this entire mess seriously. The ball’s in your court.
I’m through for a while. Please consider your next actions carefully.
All you really know about “that crew”, Mister, is only what you choose to “know”, about every darned one of US.
So. Now that this ol mo betta bug has succeeded in my mission of “infesting” not just this thread, but a hell of a lot or other ones, my work here is finally over.
I’m outa here.
(So many blogs to wreck, so little time.)
look at the front-page. look at the comments. faithful community members? How could you even suggest that? That site has been around since August.
From what I can understand, it sounds like you’ve made a decision to leave BooTrib. I support you in that decision, Tracy, as a mother, and as a Gold Star family member. Clearly your involvement here is causing your daughter a lot of pain and she has to be a priority along with the rest of your family, but mostly your own mental/emotional well being that has to be protected right now. And that means decreasing all external stressors as much as you possibly can.
There have been some god awful times in my own life when serious life stressors went on and on and become just too much for my normally rational mind. It distorted my perceptions, my understanding and my reactions to things, horribly, but I didn’t know it. I hurt a lot of people by blindly lashing out based on those distorted perceptions.
Worst of all, I could NOT understand not only why people got so mad back at me, but worse, it felt like some were attacking me too. In other words, serious, heavy duty, ongoing stress has the power to alter any of us in some nasty ways we cannot even see, but others can most certainly can see and feel, when they are the recipient of our altered state of mind, and the paranoia and over reactiveness that can take over without our awareness.
I see plenty of signals that something similar may be going on for you, Tracy. It is a hellish way to feel and to live. I sincerely hope you can find you way through this, and build yourself a solid circle of trusted others with whom you can get the support you do need now. The kind of support that places like an open political blog are simply not set up to provide.
I hold no ill will toward you personally at all, Tracy and truly hope for the best for you and yours. It was the behaviors, the abusive outbursts, and the resultant chaos and hurt they caused, that were no longer tolerable for me. But listen: those were your “behaviors”, not “you”.
I know you can’t easily separate those out right now, but I can and so can many others. I just don’t believe that right now, you are in a place of being able to control these behaviors, not in a open political setting like this. I am very glad your taking at least that stressor out of your life for now.
And, like you, I HATE HATE HATE those who have put this whole horrible hell a way on you and yours, on all our troops and on every last one of us here and over there.
scribe. It isn’t anybody’s fault. Just the way it is right now so it’s best that I focus on a much smaller world so to speak. Thank You for your support.
Well, this diary seems to be getting all the traffic tonight. The Booman Tribune has again become the MT Spotlight. We aren’t helping her folks.
All right!! Lights out.
I would like to speak to you off-line. My email address is on my user profile. I would rather speak to you privately then on this diary.
Why did I check my email before turning off my computer? “Statistic,” who signed up today, has interrupted the Iraq War Grief Daily Witness diary with classic baiting in a style amazingly similar to the much abused MT. Of course, I am the bad guy for making such an allegation. I don’t know for sure that MT is Statistic, anymore than I know for sure that MT posted that diary purporting to be from her daughter. But she is and she did. Oh, I’m still confused why “statistic” would mention Cook Ting, a person I have never had any dealings with, nor did I mention in my email.
You win, MT. The blog is yours. Good job. That’ll teach people to troll rate you.
The email exchange is posted in the iraq war diary. I apologize to RubDMC for losing my cool and posting it there. Folks, read it and decide for yourself.
I see why you mentioned Cook Ting, she also troll rated you. I hadn’t noticed that earlier. I see that OUI mega-troll rated you. I won’t. Your work needs to seen for what it is.
On second thought I took Oui’s good advice and troll rated “statistic’s” and my nasty exchange off of the Iraq War Daily diary. MT should not be allowed to mess that up and I should not have helped. I am upset with myself. Basta! Basta!
YATW