This title was penned by Kos himself, in the commentary on an article about the new blogroll policy.
Yeah! (2+ / 0-)
People are so fucking moronic on this site that unless you hold their hand and personally guide them to the candidate blogs, they have no chance in hell in finding them!
No thanks. They’re going to have to earn their support the old fashioned way — by working for it.
by kos on Sat Feb 03, 2007 at 08:59:16 PM PST
I didn’t say it. I don’t think it. In fact, my opinion is to the contrary. I think liberal blogs in general, and this site in particular, are a meeting ground for some very bright people. But Kos’ comment does provide me inspiration to lay out some meta-thoughts I’ve had for a while.
My own view of this site was fairly summed up by Numerian, in the same diary, where he commented:
Big Mistake Kos (0 / 0)
*
If you want to turn Daily Kos into a site that focuses exclusively on electoral politics, that’s your business. I’ll come visit you a month or two before every election. Right now I visit you before any other website every day because I can read all about politics, science from Darksyde, the markets from Bondad, religion from Pastor Dan, humor from Bill of Maine, the Iraq situation from Juan Cole, non-Drudge news from Huffington Post, the arts from James Wolcott, and so on. Sure, some of these writers have their own blogs which I can visit too, and yeah I could bookmark them all. But Daily Kos is my bookmark for all things progressive. Your increasing attempts to restrict the content of Daily Kos, now to be extended to the blogroll, pulls the community apart and not together.
*
by Numerian on Sun Feb 04, 2007 at 04:22:07 AM PST
A question I have personally struggled with is this: Is DailyKos simply a tool for the election of Democrats? Or is it part of a people-powered counter-revolution in communications on a par with what talk radio was to the right-wing extremists in this country? I understand that many here will comment below and tell me something like this:
STFU (+144/0)
It is Kos’ blog. The mission statement says it is to elect Democrats. Go start your own blog and STFU to boot.
By theaveragekossack on Tuesday Feb 6 at 2:30 PM EST
I don’t know for certain if I disagree with those of you who will make those comments. In fact, your persuasive arguments in this direction have largely led me to silence my own critical thinking on this issue. However, my personal experience in using DailyKos tells me that the reality of this place is something a bit larger than Kos’ mission statement – whether intentional or not. This is a leftist clearing house for the exchange of ideas, in addition to the overt mission of electing politicians. I mean, I’ve met other left-leaning people here. Exchanged thoughts. Met on blogs farther to the left to further develop ideas. Engaged in activism. Etc. It is a reality. Perhaps Kos doesn’t like this. But it is a reality.
I think of things like Mike Stark’s diaries. DailyKos was a loudspeaker for him. To have an impact in the larger world. Cracking the mainstream. It is the power of many voices. Undoubtedly, DailyKos has become something of an institution. And a part of that institution’s de facto mission happens to be left-wing activism. And perhaps some of the voices here (mine, and others I’ve met here) are so left, that we are an embarrassment to an institution like DailyKos, in its efforts to solidify its place as a bankroll and power broker to the Washington elite. I mean, I find it both exhilarating and frightening, that my own thoughts have, on occasion, been elevated, through the peer review system, to stand side-by-side the words written by (or for) John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, et al. It speaks to the grass-roots power of this medium.
So in viewing this place as a growing institution with the power that it has, I come to a second issue. If this place actually holds some notable power as a fund raising and electoral tool to the party currently representing the left, is it wise to have a governing model for such an institution that rests plenary power in the hands of a single man and his appointees? I was led to this issue by the notable criticisms from others on this blog – e.g., STFU because this is Kos’ blog and it is to elect Democrats. Perhaps they have a valid point. But it raises the above question in my mind. If DailyKos is becoming a powerful broker in the political world, should it be run by one man. Individuals are prone to make missteps and misstatements. To say stupid things from time to time. Not unlike Kos has said in the above title, or during the Pie Fights (IMHO). And my limited education in political history recalls a time when parties were run locally by corruptible power brokers. I make no accusation here against any blog proprietor. I simply ask: If a single blog becomes very powerful, is it wise to have a system of governance in that institution that is, in essence, at the whim of an individual?
I guess I am suggesting that in a community of bloggers, where some power is owed to the number of bloggers that visit a site, ought not the community members have some say in the governance of that site? I know this is a bit of a radical notion, for those who have difficulty looking in any way beyond the concept of private property rights. But does not the power of DailyKos, to some extent, flow from the very people who visit it daily to read and write and think? And if so, ought they not have some say? I am not advocating a democracy here. But suggesting that their might be democratic models of governance which might better serve a community. An elected advisory board, perhaps. A consultive body drawn from the membership. Maybe ombudsman, with some power to consult on important decisions.
My comments here are, to some extent, dictated by Kos’ statement. I find it disrespectful, if not indicative of a pervasive attitude of the management. As an anti-war hippie-esque supporter of feminist causes and espouser of an anarchist political philosophy, I have certainly been offended by Kos’ statements and general attitude in the past. And as a reader and writer at The Booman Tribune and MyLeftWing, I am certainly chagrined that these blogs have been shunned by the new look blogroll. So hold these items against me if you will. But I ask the above questions in earnest, because I think there are many liberals here with whom I share much in common. And I doubt that I am the only blogger who has thought out these issues in this way. I also view the blogroll issue as more important than Kos himself (if you bother to read the story and thread linked above), because I found those like minds at these other sites through Kos’ blogroll. Absent the inclusive blogroll, as it once existed, I would be a less rich person in terms of friends and thoughts.
The Big Orange, as your community is often referred to at these “lesser blogs,” is certainly a powerful place in the blogosphere. But I’d like to think that your lesser blog partners are important too – and that the blogging phenomenon, in general, is worthy of discussing the above issues.
I can honestly envision a country at war with Iran next month, with about a 90% approval rate of the U.S. population, at the merest hint of another Gulf of Tonkin incident as a spark. I am not making a prediction. But I would be less than shocked at such an eventuality. I can also honestly view blogging as an important tool of the people to band together and oppose such misguided policies. I think highly enough of the tool to offer these frank thoughts, in the hope that these matters might be discussed.
recent spate of meta, I ran across Kos’ decision to eliminate The Booman Tribune and My Left Wing from the blogroll. It freed me up to write a meta diary about the big orange that I’ve been thinking about for some time.
I’m cross-posting it here because this site is my blogging home. I met you all through Kos. The place has an important role. And someone out to say these things out loud. At least that’s what I think.
he also elimated a dozen or more other sites. I think he only has 15 non-local blogs left on the roll, so I don’t think it is personal.
Nah. I didn’t mean to say these things to drag you into a personal thing. But fact is, I’m fairly disillusioned there (just with life in general, too). It was just a trigger to get out of me what I needed to say about that place.
But I was pissed about it. No doubt. Without you on blogroll, I’d have never found this place. And for whatever has happened here over time, there was some measure of good that has come out of this place — and will again, I’m sure.
because really, I’m not very promotionally minded anyway… BUT, in the interest of reality based thinking… it’s worth everyone knowing this will likely affect directly the search ranking, a site that is as highly linked as dkos is very trusted in most search engine algorythms, and where it links TO is very much a trusted vote for the search results.
I wonder if kos doesn’t know that or doesn’t care.
actually I don’t wonder.
to be clear, I’m FINE with it, except the part where I want people to know it does hurt, I want people to think it does reflect on how kos sees his “peers” on the net.
i mentioned on a comment at dkos that links on his blogroll are valuable in google search hierarchy rankig.
for him to cut blogs (booman, msoc, tbogg, and my own, as well as others) and say “nothing personal,” which he did in a comment to my diary about it, is tantamount to joe biden calling obama clean and articulate. he can say he didn’t mean to insult anyone, but he wound up insulting everyone.
and kos, being an i t guy, knew damn well that he was devaluing the blogs he cut (duncan, maybe not. i’m not sure what duncan knows…let’s leave it at that).
algorithms aside, a link on a blogroll doesn’t mean “these are the guys i read every day” to the world at large, it means “these are voices that i recommend my readers to check out and sample. these are my peers.”
conversely, removing a link tacitly removes that endorsement, and says “those guys used to be my peers, but damn, i’m so red hot now, i don’t need to care about the little people no more.” well, not in those words, maybe.
i’ve gone nuts over at my blog, writing about almost nothing else, especially since duncan and kos made such a public display of shedding the little blogs off their rolls (geez, they couldn’t just remove them quietly one at a time and deal with the bloggers in emails? they had to make a public spectacle of their disdain?).
i admit, my blog isn’t the biggest, or the best, but it is one of the oldest continuously operating blogs, and i have under my belt real world confrontations with electronic media, including cnn and washpost, in demanding that blogs be taken seriously (plus, 2 mentions on the daily show!)
so damned if i know what it takes to be a peer of these guys.
i have mused (along with jon swift) that the problem is these guys have become the very thing they set out to counter-act: inbred, elite snobs who only talk to each other, and have no actual idea of what citizens are trying to do.
f*ck em.
personally, skippy is running a real blog amnesty: blogroll skippy and skippy will blogroll you!
You’re obviously famous and I’m silly for not knowing of you before. But I want to say I REALLY endorse this comment.
i love your amnesty program. I don’t want an endless blogroll and I am not concerned about whether I am linked in return, but I would be happy to link to all the active sites that Markos just took off his blogroll. I guess I should offer that same thing to Duncan’s blogroll too. Why not?
But I need screen shot because I don’t know what their blogrolls were.
As for your larger point, skip, Markos is the bigtime now. He’s linking to other big-timers like Josh Marshall and James Wolcott and Arianna. We’re not in that class. He’s moved on. That’s his right. I don’t begrudge him for it. But we little people gotta stick together and I’m more than willing to do that.
You, and similar blogs, damn sure ARE in “that” class.
Jeez.
Give this man a vitamin.
Give this man a hug.
Give this man a subpoena.
For starters, BooMan’s writing is WAY better than Wolcott (that priss) or Arianna.
“not in that class”???? WTF?????
BooMan sounds like he’s about to pull a Billmon. Please don’t do that. Aim high. Aim big!
right. And the Dayton Flyer is in the same class as the Washington Post because the writing is better.
He’s holding conventions and going on Meet the Press. You think he needs to stay a blogger his whole life? Stop tugging at his tail and let him fly. He made it to the mainstream. You act like that makes him a phony by default. Maybe you just had the wrong impression of him and feel disappointed. I don’t think I ever labored under a misapprehension.
Fool on me to have considered you his peer.
I knew he never considered me to be his peer. And I knew that he had ambitions that I don’t have. I don’t want to be a part of the punditocracy. I don’t want to be a guest on cable news. I don’t want that. He does. And I am not going to criticize him for it.
If I had thought that he saw himself as one insurgent among many, who saw himself as my equal, I might be betrayed by the way his site has tacked to the Carville Center. But I knew what he wanted and it was about his career and his influence.
And in all honesty, if people are honest with themselves, he wasn’t dishonest about it. They might want to go help skippy now because he better represents their values. I hope people figure it out.
But I am not going to badmouth him for wanting fame and fortune and influence. I’ve always said I was a proud capitalist even as I have avoided doing just about everything that would make me good at capitalism.
that’s a good attitude that makes you not petty.
but it’s a bad attitude liberally, as a fighting liberal.
there is no caste system.
we are all peers.
that’s the point.
some peers are fat, that can mean they eat well or just eat too much.
some peers are nimble.
some peers love llama’s.
we are all peers, period, insist on it dude!
Right. You say more elegantly what I was insisting on last night. Absolutely right. We’re all peers on the net.
Pride goeth before a fall. There will come a time, I expect, when Kos will be humbled.
I made this comment in his “meta” diary the other day aimed at OPOL:
over at dKos I had to leave this comment in Markos’ diary:
I have had it with his BS. He just doesn’t get it. He doesn’t get much of anything anymore.
It doesn’t mean much, and I will still visit the site to read the better posts (IE: NOT HIS) occasionally, but I de-linked dKos on my little Blog.
Not just because of his Blogroll…
And yes, he has been embraced by the right wing media because he is in line with them as far as his politics. There is not much to get excited on that one.
Now that the Democratic party has a little more power there have been a lot more Democratic voices on the media… Though, very few that I would classify as left.
One man’s Centrism is another man’s Radical American Centrism… heh
> He made it to the mainstream.
Yes. Exactly. He “Crashed the Gate”. But he didn’t do it to tear down the walls and clean out the cockroaches, he did it to become one of them. Meet the new orthodoxy, same as the old orthodoxy. And the enforcers are out in force, busily attacking and troll rating anyone who doesn’t tow the party line. It must really piss them off that people seem to like OPOL’s diaries, and still praise Jimmy Carter . . .
in fact, i titled my first post about this whole fracas crashing the gates…and closing them behind you.
So he held a convention–(((yawn))) did he corner the market on conventions while I wasn’t looking?–and Timmy featured him for a few a minutes as a pink poodle curiosity. Truly impressive.
Like I said before, I absolutely believe you when you say you saw him for what he was, but give yourself more credit!
Amen. Don’t sell yourself short, Booman. You and Steven D. are both excellent writers with a fine eye for what’s truly important. And you’re both honest as hell, which is more than I can say for many other commentators.
but i have a screen shot (actually an html file) of kos front page from dec. 05.
dkos accidentally front-paged one of my diaries (i’m sure it was a tech glitch of some kind) and i happened to click onto the site at the same time…so i saved it on my computer for ‘roo posterity.
send me your email and i’ll send it to you.
Let them eat cake.
it’s funny
because they are not in the New York Times’ class.
They are climbing a ladder to reach heights blogs were invented to disdain and question.
it’s rather funny.
this is why I say the paranoid attempt to up quality in terms that people that graduate in the middle of their graduate program appreciate… e.g. where OPOL isn’t a good writer but … others are.
At best they will get all the second rank experts that have to give their “expertise” away for free… the best blogs can become as “credentialed” experts refering only to other such “credentialed experts” is third rate, real experts will get real expert jobs.
The value of the net is all the people that don’t want to be pundits of that sort, citizens that are experts in whatever they do for a living, and in politics, they are informed and aware. You don’t believe them because their credential carries authority, but when they have a good idea, or can point you to the evidence that will allow you to convince yourself.
those classes are below us, our foundation, our CONSERVATIVISM that we use as a platform to build progress… dkos is sinking into the swamp that politics is built on, like Venice, it is beautiful and stinky at the same time… but unfortunately, not romantic.
Bravo for your effort. I’m blogrolling you in my favorites. I think I’ll be reading more Skippy and less Kos.
He knows perfectly well he just effectively cut my traffic by a third. Which cuts my advertising rates. Which cuts my income.
This is not cool. It is cruel, and senseless. It costs these guys NOTHING to maintain large blogrolls, and it is a MAJOR boon to the people in the blogrolls.
It is ABSURDLY rude and heartless and ungrateful, in my case, at least. Consider, for a moment, the time period during which I came to prominence at DKos. COnsider that I was among the first diarists to regularly accumulate 100+ comment diaries. And then 300+. Then 500+. I was also the first to get over 1000+ comments. Count those motherfucking page views.
It’s obscene.
Maybe he’s mad that you were profiled first. Neener, neener.
Seriously, I don’t know what his motivations are and I won’t try to guess. I agree that it’s probably nothing personal. What raises my eyebrow is that he could have handled this quietly. He chose not to.
That says more about his character than I could ever speculate.
Finally–it’s mighty good to see you in these parts, because I know you’re busy at your home base. I do try to lurk there on occasion but I promise I’ll sign up soon.
Be well and take care!
Elitism seldom is personal. That’s what’s so ugly about it.
banned 3 times from DKos. I’m too conservative. That means that 1) I have questions about the wisdom of impeachment 2) I am not convinced that gay marriage is a winning political issue and 3) I express my opinions.
I am thru with sock puppetry. The self-policing mechanism of DKos is way out of whack. It’s more important to hear different voices than to enforce orthodoxy.
At this site, I disagree with Booman periodically. To date, I have not been banned. That’s a better system.
I have always found BooMan to be a more tolerant host than Kos.
That said, beyond some hounding by the FPers that goes along with speaking out, I’ve never been threatened with banning or banned when I choose to step up over there and take a contrarian view.
The power of people communicating together. I’m convinced it could be/is an important part in our political/social history. (Maybe I’m crazy).
At any rate, I would sure like to see a day when all the BooTribbers from old were able to come back together. I swear that was a good feeling — like change was in the air.
DailyKos is a tool for the enrichment and empowerment of Kos. That’s all you need to know.
I think you and I see it alot alike Arminius. But I think it is an important place. At least the dynamic. Some place where 100,000 plus users go and get together on issues.
I guess when I boil it down, I’m wishing/thinking that this tool is more than just about electing politicians from a given party — despite it being expressly stated as the goal.
I’m like a square peg trying to stuff myself into a round hole, over and over.
Oh sure, I completely agree with this. But the synchronicities and richness that occurs there is largely an accident of history, I think. DKos will continue to spin off better places like BMT and MLW.
Kos’s decision to purge the blogroll is foolish, in my opinion, because it … [oh good grief! I have to get some legal work done today!!!]
I don’t believe there are anywhere near 100,000 users on DKos. The scuttlebutt is that, even if there are indeed 100,000 accounts, only a fraction of them are active.
I also suspect that most of the traffic consists of a relatively small group of obsessive-compulsive participants.
on my site only 80% of the people that start the process of creating an account actually complete it.
So, you can knock 20% off the top and then add refugees and people that have lost interest.
Don’t forget the spate of spammers we had for a while who posted two or three comments (in Chinese) in random diaries before someone let me know. I deleted the posts and banned those users. (They seem to have gone away, and good riddance.)
Actually it would be an interesting exercise to keep track of all the posts to this site for a week and see how many people actually post here, compared to the number of users. The “Recent Posts” page makes this possible, and I could probably figure out how to do it in a couple of hours if I wasn’t so lazy.
I think that is somewhat an illusion; it merely refers to the userid’s issued, and includes banned users, like myself, and people who’ve left the place for other reasons. Maybe jotter could give some stats on the realistic number of active users.
It is all too obvious that kos didn’t mind the previous variety of posters, and people like MSOC, who, like her mode or not, brought tons of people to his site. But the success of his blog–and I would say it owes little to his own voice, as he is a mediocre writer at best–seems to have instilled in him this desire for “respectability”. old story and all.
know from whence you came is another old story.
Consider-if that site disappeared tomorrow–what would really be lost, aside from its directed ATM machines? Do you think people who care about issues would stop caring, and stop being politically active? And that there would be no ways to organize people around issues?
And as we watch the new majority Dems in action, perhaps some have second thoughts about such devotion to supporting a party that seems queasy acknowledging its supporter’s desires.
Yup.
AG
Sorry AG. You are a much admired writer. Don’t mean to waste space on crappy stuff. But I am in a prett freaking meta-mood.
I haven’t been to Kos in several years because I don’t like the attitude and the statement in the title is exactly the attitude I remember and certainly shows a real lack of respect for members…and I can’t post there anyway.
I don’t think I’m any less informed than people who hang out there daily.
I don’t think you are less informed either Oui.
I do feel a little marginalized by the big Orange sometimes. Like they may look down on BooTribbers (probably just my own thoughts). And to me — it is the leftist stuff — and not the Democrat electing stuff that is the most meaningful.
I man CI, not OUI. WTF.
ha..hey I consider it an honor to be mistaken for Oui.
Joe, while the small blogroll is probably not a good thing, I personally found this and other blogs through alternative means. People will still manage to discover the other blogs.
From what I’ve seen, most go to dkos to read the diaries and generally not the front page posts. Unless things change, any narrowing of front page content will not change the subjects covered in the user’s postings.
Frankly, I find it more disturbing that Markos has failed to include the links for dkos user blogs, the personal sites of those individuals who regularly post and contribute so much to dkos. He owes it to his regular contributors because dkos would offer little without the many user diaries.
But it’s when blogs are dropped from my own blogroll that people should start to worry. 😉
I like the front page posts OK, especially writers I really like like Devilstower and BIPM. But I’ll admit that I usually don’t get much past the recommended diaries. So many blogs, so little time.
Why didn’t you ever ask me to put your blog on MLW’s blogroll?
I just did, by the way.
Thanks!
::sniff::
😉
in meta discussions at DKos:
To me, these two concepts are mutually contradictory.
I don’t blame Kos for wanting to run his own site – that’s his prerogative. The problem comes when people convince themselves that it’s a community of equals. It’s not. It’s more like a fiefdom with a head warlord running everything, while the rest of the population are serfs. In the case of DKos, the serfs are busily churning out content which Kos profits from.
The TU system is basically a way in which disorganized mafia-like groups work together in a loose and disorganized manner to eliminate dissent.
There are several clans or mafia groups
You cross these groups, and say anything in banned language, you are toast.
I’ll give the first one, depending on your tone and your reasoning. If you have a disrespectful or bigoted sounding tone, and you are not making a reasonable argument based on more than the old Adam and Steve nonsense, then there is a good chance people are going to troll-rate you.
On immigration, even the people here that write about it have a very nuanced view. Except when it comes to hunting people. That’s not acceptable.
On the third, impeachment is embraced here. Kagro X is for it over in orange.
But you won’t get troll-rated here unless you are making talking point moronic arguments.
BooMan,
I’m getting caught up in the whole MLW/MSOC take on the blogroll thing. I mean, yeah, it pissed me off.
And I know you’ve said it wasn’t personal above.
And I know this is probably a less than perfect position to put you in because you are friends with everyone.
But what is your take, if you can share it, on the whole blorgroll thing? I mean, I think it is bullshit that the Booman Tribune is not on the list. You and Steven D and clammyinny and others I’m sure I’m forgetting — all contribute a monsterous amount to that place. And I’m thinking that the elimination of your site from the blogroll is a freaking slap. I was less wound up about it, until MSOC kind of confirmed feelings on this. What about it? Or is it just too close to home to ask?
It hurts my traffic and effects how much I can charge for an ad, but we’re not selling any ads anyway and anyone that relies on revenue is going under. You’ll see a lot less bloggers this year, and Markos’ move doesn’t help.
But he’s doing his own thing and he doesn’t owe me a thing. I’m glad he had me on the list as long as he did.
You’re kind.
I mean you write some absolutely great stuff there and here. Consistently great contributor. His de-linking you costs you traffic. And you’re able to say no problem — his perrogative. I mean it is generous. I shouldn’t expect less of you.
But I’m pissed for you. Fucking honestly.
But I think you have it backwards. I didn’t do much for him at all. Not really. Not in the larger scope of things. On the contrary, he gave me a format to get heard and to have people, some of them with actual influence to change things, read what I write. I owe him more immeasurably more than he owes me.
Please forgive me, but that sounds like what one hears from an abused spouse.
how so?
How has he abused me?
He published anything I wanted to write and it was instantly available to tens of thousands of eyes. Many of my diaries there were read by more people than read that day’s NYT’s editorial page. And I am supposed to think that I gave him more than he gave me? Hell, he even gave me the technological framework to create this site. I don’t mean he wrote Scoop, but he showed me what it could do.
Look, people can be petty and think that their contributions to the site are the only reason his site is big and he makes a living. The bottom line is that he is a publisher. He empowers people by publishing what they write and giving them a ready-made huge audience. He has created many writers that never would have gained a following otherwise.
I suspect that the people that respect him the most are the ones that are really writers first and political activists second.
People think they own the space there because it’s free. But it isn’t free. The server costs are several grand a month. There are accounting fees, and lawyer fees, and tech fees, amd many incidentals. He is a businessman. And he provides an excellent product for writers. For poltical activists? It’s also good. But not as good as a site that actually espouses their values.
What I wish people would do is realize that by staying at orange all the time they are empowering a growing power within the Democratic Party. If that power doesn’t coincide with your values, find a green, or blue, or maroon site that does coincide with your values and empower their voices. Markos makes more off one ad than I make off ten. If you like what I do, buy an ad, buy some merchadise, or just spend some time here, tell your friends, post a diary, make some comments.
I am not a businessman. If I were, I’d be a failed businessman. I’m a writer and an activist. And Markos doesn’t own me a link on his blogroll, even though a link on his blogroll was a very nice and helpful thing to have.
I’m no businessman either.
Your point about finding a different site — one that fits is something I’ve often considered. I mean, if there was a site of thousands for deranged, theoretical anarchists, I might be there. But to talk with the left as it exists in numbers, it seems to me to be there, or here and other sites like it.
I think I am an army of one. But there are just enough others who think some of the same thoughts that it keeps me from realizing that.
And your contribution to Kos deserves some freaking loyalty — just one guy’s opinion.
Anyhoo.
One other thing. What does it cost Kos to link to your site? Am I mistaken, or does it cost him nothing?
If so, then how is it anything but a slap in the face. A conclusion that you or your readers and contributors are somehow an embarassment to the Democratic Party purposes of the Daily Kos.
Thank you for a long response. Dr. Arminius, who has just received a battlefield promotion to psychiatrist, is at your service.
I greatly prefer MaryScott O’Connor’s fulminations about Kos’s decision to purge the blogroll. I think you have a good intellect, BooMan, and you’re a very good political writer and analyst. You’re almost as smart as me. :>
But you’re acting beat-down and dejected. “I am not a businessman. If I were, I’d be a failed businessman.” Oh screw that! Markos hit the gold rush. It’s an accident. You do a MUCH better job at many related things, in my opinion. (I say that despite all the recent controversy.)
I think you’re standing in a position right now where you could rival or exceed what Kos has done, if that’s what you want to do.
I want to emphasize again–I founded an Internet company in 1995 and it has gone on to be a much bigger enterprise than DKos (I’m quite serious about that), so I know what I’m talking about when I talk about Internet business. I had to sell the business (for lots of zeros) after my partner suddenly died of a stroke at age 40. And I concentrated on my law practice. But I often think of returning to the net.
I think you gave a lot more to DKos than you got back, and I think you continue to do so.
I think you should break free.
Kos doesn’t give a flying fuck about you. He just made that VERY clear.
Why should you continue in servile defense of him?
And another thing–while you are often very wrong and stubborn about admitting that you’re wrong, you have the capacity to do it. Kos doesn’t. You’re a better human being, in my opinion, and I’ve been insanely immersed in all of this since 2002.
Break out! You have my support, for what it’s worth.
as long as we are playing armchair psychiatrist, can I ask you a question?
Why do you seem angry or frustrate with me for not being angry at Markos?
Maybe you should examine that for yourself, if you are so inclined.
If I ever had a reason to be servile to Markos he has removed it, and yet I’m not badmouthing him.
Maybe I never was servile?
Just a thought.
I retract the point. I am not angry or frustrated with you about anything mentioned in this diary.
But I do have a chip on my shoulder about Kos, which influences my judgment. Sometimes I mistake dignity for servility.
Kos is not the north star. I much prefer your captainship to his. Apologies for overreaching.
So late…as usual.
BUT. Now I wouldn’t use a term like servile. I think it’s great that you’re taking the high road. I also and absolutely take you at your word that if you two shared the same ambitions, you’d beat him at his own game, and then some. From what I little I know of you, yes, you could most certainly be a pundit, and one of the few that would actually be both knowledgeable AND interesting. And even if you truly thought he was a disgusting rat fink bastard who could just rot in hell, I wouldn’t give him the satisfaction of knowing. It would roll of me like water off a duck’s back, to borrow one of my parents’ favorite line.
But definitely give yourself more credit! That’s all I’m saying. :<)
He doesn’t owe you one, but that doesn’t mean that his removing BT from his blogroll was honorable, either.
I just went through the sites on his blogroll: there was only one Scoop-powered site — Political Cortex — but that has a radically different layout. I think that that is part of it: he is afraid of competition from other Scoop sites. And that makes sense: the more Scoop-powered political sites I learn about, the less time I spend at dKos.
While I disagree with BooMan on this, I also think this is an elegant and truthful comment.
Hey — I completely agree with that.
Yeah. That is a way of looking at it. But it is not the way you look at things as a blog administrator. I’ve seen you thank people profusely for their contributions to their site. You treat those who contribute with respect — like a friend.
Fuck — you were a friend to your detriment (it seems to me) on the Tracy thing. But that is you. A loyal friend.
But with Kos, you see him as giving you a gift for some stellar contributions.
I mean, that is an admirable quality in a human being, to be humble about one’s contributions, and to perhaps graciously indulgent in good will to those whom you feel loyalty.
I shouldn’t be telling you what to feel. Kind of idiotic. But really. I value your and MSOC’s contributions to Kos a heck of lot more than you. I see your point about it being an opportunity as well, but you would never treat someone that way. I don’t think so.
No need to respond. I’m not trying to bait you into an anti-Kos position. I know you have some loyalty there. Fuck, the more I type the more ticked I get.
Anyway. Tomorrow I’ll stop thinking about it.
If you’re going to be modest, okay, fine, but I REFUSE to say he doesn’t owe me a thing.
It’s been a mutually beneficial relationship ONLY since I started my own blog — which was NEVER my intent. For the first 18 months of my life as a blogger, I blogged FOR Markos. Didn’t think of it that way, but that;s what it was. The Rude Pundit linked to MY PAGE at Daily Kos. You know how many hits Markos got from that one link? Ever take out an ad at Rude One? I have. MONDO traffic. Hell, I STILL get mondo traffic from my link on his blogroll.
Markos just fucking shivved me, and if it ain’t personal for him (and I can imagine it isn’t — which makes it all the MORE egregious), it sure the fuck is for ME.
BooMan — I’m definitely with MSOC on this one. Can’t tell you how to act, obviously. You are a gentleman. Good dude.
But I am mad as heck, and don’t feel like just taking it. It costs him zero, right? It actually cost him time to remove you. Fuck that.
I’m not going to have a public spat with you over this, but we just have a difference of opinion.
Without Daily Kos and Markos paying the bills for that, your voice would never have been heard by so many and you would never have been profiled in the national press and never been invited on tv and radio programs. Okay, never is too strong. It’s possible you would have found some other avenue to those things. But in this life, it was your platform in orange that gave you that breakthrough.
You owe him everything.
Does he owe you in return? He should have some recognition of how much you have contributed to his site, and his page-views, and his ad rates. But he doesn’t owe you loyalty. If you pissed him off by criticizing him it would be his right to decide he doesn’t want to link to a critic. Just because you posted there doesn’t mean he owes you a link. I think that’s crazy.
Should he link to Marisacat because she contributed so much to his early success? I think not.
For me, skippy has a better point. He’s hurting other bloggers that are already hurting very badly with ad revenues down dramatically across the board. He should be expanding his blogroll, not shrinking it. But this gets to people’s expectations of Markos. They seem to be beginning to notice that he is a hawk, he is begudgingly pro-choice (and hostile to pro-choice activist groups), he dislikes single-issue groups on the left of the party, he touts libertarianism at every opportunity (a point where we have some measure of agreement), and he generally frowns on hippies, peace activists, and tree huggers of all stripes.
He opposed this war and with good reason. But he isn’t a movement progressive. He’s not trying to move the party to the left, he’s trying to get it so the left can win again. And it has never been about his community and the real power of people-powered politics to move the country to the left (which is the inevitable result of ordinary people increasing their influence) but about his voice getting heard, and him being able to craft a career out of blogging, which is a daunting challenge.
In other words, he didn’t lie to anyone. He’s been pretty straight with people. He has captured a progressive crowd but he isn’t interested in them or their goals. They are not his goals.
So I just don’t have any expectations for him to be looking to help people like you and me. I haven’t in years. So I don’t feel betrayed by this because it was so predictable that it didn’t surprise me in the least.
Okay. So MSOC got it for being critical? We suppose.
What did you get the axe for? Allowing jokers like me to post on your site and not being an asshole. It’s crap. You shouldn’t be treated that way.
And your portrait of Kos isn’t very comforting. Why do you suppose it is that it is the clearinghouse for progressives that it is with a barely-reformed Republican at the helm?
I didn’t say she ‘got it’ for being critical. He took off a lot of people. But she has been critical and yet she thinks he owes her a link.
Okay.
So am I not in reality to think that a probable reason you and she were de-linked is because your sites were too progressive for stuffed shirts? Do you think I’d be in tinfoil hat land if that were a working assumption?
My guess is that he thinks of himself as a pundit now, a player on the big stage. And he wants his blogroll to reflect that. I don’t think it is a lot more complicated than that.
And I think Duncan just wanted to clean up his blogroll. He had no intention of starting this whole thing.
I am sick of hearing what kos pays for.
He lives OFF the money the site brings in… it’s PAYING HIM.
wtf is people’s problem here?
he lives off the site!!! his wealth is coming FROM THE SITE, not to the site from a fucking trust fund.
whew… the emotion is about the issue booman, not you.
I actually do quite respect how self-responsible you are on this, but I want to say to this liberal blogosphere… um… we’re “liberal”… and that means, property does not make right, might doesn’t make right, and especially… markos makes money from the site, not the other way around.
My attitude on gay marriage is simple. I have no problem with it at all. I am a Unitarian, and that is our official policy. If you see the guy marrying most gays, that would often be our church president. So, not a problem.
But I have a problem with it politically. For whatever reason, it is not politically possible at this time. From the simple pragmatic standpoint, a person who comes out for gay marriage right now will lose and lose big. It is a political deathtrap at the moment. In five years, who knows? But right now – a democratic party disaster.
I am pro-immigration as well. I am pro-measured immigration. And I am 100 % opposed to creating special mechanisms like a huge increase in H1-B visas to let in more highly qualified engineers to destroy th e IT job market.
Gay marriage is a big political problem? You mean, in comparison with the Iraq war?
I don’t think so.
Forget gay marriage – the Iraq war is the mother of all wedge issues. If the Democrats can’t find a way to work it, then they’re fucking incompetents.
you are correct.
Chuck Schumer says that this issue will be off the table by 11/2008. Do you agree? I really don’t. If the Dems hold hearing, keep this in the headlines, and focus on the incredible war profits made by those fascist nutbars, it can work for us in 2008.
Gay marriage failed in 2006. I don’t see it coming up in the same way in 2008. It’s still a bad POLITICAL issue, however.
I don’t think it’s fair to ask people who created their own blogs from scratch to turn them over to the will of a community.
I think those wishing to participate in a community blog, a true community, need to form one and join it.
That’s not to say I don’t personally treasure and value the many contributions of different posters, and the sense of community. But we are guests in community blogs, not co-owners.
The only right we have, as a free guest posting, is to decide whether to participate or not, knowing that our participation gives the blog we participate in more power.
If that’s not what someone is looking for, I think that person needs to consider forming a true community blog, run by a community.
I’m just trying to point out that we can’t ask a private enterprise to become a community one. That’s a bit like saying because we hang out at a particular coffee shop every morning they should change their menu or hours to accommodate our group. It’s worth asking. And they just might. But they certainly should not be expected to, and certainly do not owe us anything. We chose to give them our business, and we can choose to take that business elsewhere. But there is no implied contract there.
Just kidding Real History Lisa. I wouldn’t want to have the power of eminent domain over all blogs. But I am thinking Daily Kos may be a special case. I’d consider my plea as more of — let’s have some community governance their with the blessings of the blog master.
LOL, BostonJoe!
I’ll completely agree to this frame:
Daily Kos would be a far better place if it were managed by a responsible, generous, and tolerant community.
The best solution is a benevolent dictator. A problem with community-based governance is that the formal mechanisms required may not be able to adapt quickly enough to experience. The problem with Kos is that he is not benevolent. He is like our politicians, unconcerned with the common good. That comes out occasionally in the tone of his pronouncements, as the title of this diary suggests.
But the title also gets at what might well be the main problem with dKos (as opposed to Kos): too many not very bright people post there. There is a very low signal to noise ratio in the comments of most diaries.
Agree strongly, on all counts.
between dKos and this site and a few others. When it comes to “pie fights” and assorted foofraw, I tend to emulate Switzerland — I stay neutral, looking at all the possible sides (usually there’s more than just two when you really get down to it).
I’ve said this a few times and in a few places…but is this why the Republicans ultimately win? They mostly agree on an end, and the means to that end, or they quash dissent among the ranks (the recent spate of Republicans coming out against “the surge” might be signs of cracks in the dam). But we’re so busy arguing about the means, and now even the ends, that we can’t get anything done.
I agree with you that I see Daily Kos as more than just a place to get Democrats elected. What happens if we get a clear majority in both the House and Senate and take back the White House? Will there be a 404 error message on Jan. 20, 2009? “Hey folks, my work is done…heading for spring training!” Or will our work just be beginning, as it began this month — to keep an eye on the bastards we put into office, to hold them to the fancy words they spewed forth in their campaigns. And to work towards cleaning up the shit created by this current misAdministration.
There are a lot of gifted writers over at dKos, dedicated to their areas of expertise: Jerome a Paris on energy policy, Bonddad on economy, nyceve on health care, teacherken on education, Fredrick Carlson and Pastordan on the Religious Reich…the list goes on. Now, I know that there are other places where I can find many of these writers, but I spend enough damn time online already — I like knowing I can find all those folks in one place, sort of like the Newsweek or Time Magazine of the Internets…
I’ve said this a few times and in a few places…but is this why the Republicans ultimately win?
Actually, they win because they have lots of money to spend on saturation advertising.
While this whole affair is somewhat disgusting, and no more than I expected, it is not like elections are at stake over this.
Oh, yes! Election fraud–another subject taboo at Orange. You gotta laugh.
putting recs on election fraud stories! But I have never felt that election fraud was just a one issue topic!
I came across the following yesterday, thought it might fit here:
Imo, just about any human group, organization, etc. can be substituted for “church.” The coalescing and the dissolution, eons to nanotime – the internets show it all happening so much more quickly.
“I can honestly envision a country at war with Iran next month, with about a 90% approval rate of the U.S. population, at the merest hint of another Gulf of Tonkin incident as a spark.”…not much time to elect Dems.
To form a coalition with people that have nothing but one issue in common and being able to sustain that coalition is very difficult. I have been wondering if I would join an anti-war march if the KKK sponsored it…
Hi tampopo. Thanks for joke. Pretty funny.
I’m probably not one to listen to about coalition building. More likely a spokesperson for stirring shit. But honestly, the more I hear about this blogroll thing, the more pissed I get.
skippy is pissed too.
Hey Mannee. Thanks for link. Some crap, huh?
didn’t know you already linked to me, manny, sorry for the double link kids.
Your effort is worth the double link…
nice to run into you, skippy. your rantata was worth the double-link, imo. well said, as always.
By that I mean:
1) they have pulled goodly quantities of readers not just progressives, but conservatives as well (the latter are not trolls but recovering conservatives or disillusioned conservatives or just bossy conservatives looking for another place to put their authoritarianism!)
2) kos and some others are doing some work for candidates. This presents a great ethical dilemma: how do you remain true to the mission if the mission gets polluted with other missions?
3) the dem party that Kos claims to want to promote is splintered at the moment. It has been splintered quite well, as kos noted, by the DLC. Dean has been a unifying force for the dems, but we still have Lieberman and Landrieu from Louisiana and Nelson (sp?) none of which have promoted anything close to what I thought was a progressive democratic agenda. Hill and Bill started (or used) the splinters with the triangulation trying to get past the repub log jams. We see that splintering playing out on kos. And we see something else as well in the continual putting down of democratic candidates who are not favored by the commentors. I would wish wholeheartedly that would stop! Why should we do the repubs work FOR them? Or maybe it is lurking repubs that do it?
4) I have to agree that from dkos I was able to find other sites – firedoglake, booman, crooks and liars, etc. And from those sites other sites have popped up. And we have gotten a good disection of the news there in recent times. Who can forget plamegate, gannongate, the lack of armor for our troops, the continual… oh well you know the list. And I love Bill of Portland.
All that said I have been appalled by the continual pushing and shoving by the diary police. And I never have understood if they were appointed or self appointed.
the word “meta” in your heading. I get so f**king tired of that word at the orange site and it never seems to mean to the diarist what it means to me. Maybe I need to visit the dictionary.
I recently started a temp project that has me at work during what some people call “bankers’ hours”. The upshot of this is twofold–first of all, I have less time to write up posts about political topics for my own blog. But I’ve had even less time available for making the rounds to other political blogs. I’ve tried to keep up on the basic headlines, but have kept my distance from the “meta” discussions that have been popping up.
Until today, when the combination of weather and technical issues at work conspired to give me the day off. So I finally peeked in, and offered what few thoughts I can organize with a pair of energetic kids in the house here.
All I can say is I hope your job ends soon so you can write as much as you want — you are good at it. Hard not to sound self serving when you quoted me, but I liked what you wrote and how you wrote it. Thoughtful. I’ve bookmarked your blog. I think it may be a good time to rely on several of the more individual blogs and spend several less hours a the Daily Kos, for me personally anyway. Thank you for sharing your two pence.