Here is how Nanette put it.
There is a huge gulf between those that want a tweak… and those that feel that what is really needed is a change. Most of the kos and kos satellite blogs – bootrib, fdl, mydd, mlw to a lesser extent, etc – and participants are tweakers. They’ve convinced themselves (especially the mydd’ers… good god) that, yes, they really can be THE progressive movement, even if their ranks are made up of primarily comfortably well off white males. Tweakers. A mile wide and an inch deep… because, as I mentioned to Stoller, when whatever burr is in their hide (war in iraq, Bush in white house, etc) is removed, the slightly discomforted will be comfortable again and go on with their lives.
There are some things to nitpick here…like what it means to be well off when your income is at the poverty level and you have no health insurance. Chris Bowers and I can tell you about how well off we are…although we certainly are not destitute or struggling to eat. But there is no point in nitpicking the larger point. When Bush is gone and the war is over (if it ever really ends), what will happen to vast majority of Kossacks and other ‘movement’ community blog consumers? The New York Times recently covered the anti-Hillary industry and concluded that it had atrophied, probably beyond repair, in the years since her husband left office. Nanette is making an excellent point when she says, “when whatever burr is in their hide (war in iraq, Bush in white house, etc) is removed, the slightly discomforted will be comfortable again and go on with their lives.”
For the majority of people involved in these blogging communities, that is probably true. But it is not true for a significant minority of the people. The Bush administration has motivated and politicized a lot of people. If the impeachment of Clinton gave birth to moveon.org, the Bush administration swelled its ranks by hundreds of thousands. The war in Iraq birthed the Dean movement, the meetup movement, the blogging community movement, and these have morphed into real-life activism all over the country. Here in Philly we can see these legacies in the Committee of Seventy, Philly for Change, Philly Against Santorum, Young Philly Politics, Drinking Liberally, the campaigns of Anne Dicker, Vern Anastasio, Tony Payton, Maria Quiñones Sanchez, and others.
It was a PhillyforChange activist, working at home from his computer, that uncovered the dirt that led to the indictment of Vince Fumo, one of the most entrenched machine politicians in this city.
This pattern started in places like Colorado and spread across the country. Here in Philly, we took over committeeperson positions all over the city and threw out a few ward leaders. Even our losses have been productive. Every mayoral candidate has come to our progressive groups seeking our support. Chakah Fattah was at pains last week to justify to Chris and me his support for gambling in the city. Other candidates are wavering in the face of a concerted progressive effort to keep this vice out of our neighborhoods and not let it become a necessary revenue source for funding our city.
Cleaning up corruption in our city, electing councilpeople and a new sheriff, fighting off gambling, ousting our bigoted Senator, electing a decent mayor, contributing to narrow Congressional victories in the suburbs…all of this and more has its roots in a totally revived progressive movement within the Democratic Party.
It’s true that the vast majority of this movement is white and that it is fairly well-off. But the movement is hardly homogenous. We are increasingly interacting with the African-American community, the hispanic community, and the Asian-American community. In fact, in this racially divided city, we are probably doing the best job of any political organization to transcend those traditional differences.
What’s more, this is no mere tweaking. We are pushing a broad-based agenda, including ethical reforms, citizen’s oversight, judicial reform, and more.
This is not a mile wide and inch deep movement. It’s still in its early stages and it does gain a lot of its oxygen from opposition to Bush and the war in Iraq. But it isn’t going away…it is just getting started and the midterms were just the first indication of its increasing influence.
If you want to know why there is such vituperative opposition to Hillary Clinton it is because her allies Chuck Schumer, Rahm Emanuel, James Carville, and Paul Begala are all so dismissive of and threatened by this movement (of which community blogging is only the most visible manifestation).
The vast majority of people in this movement consider themselves Democrats and want to work within the system to change the system. Once you are on the ground working for change, you don’t really feel the kind of prevailing pessimism that is expressed in sjct’s diary. It’s not that she doesn’t have a valid point of view. Many of us will be co-opted, or sell-out, or become what we started out trying to overturn. That’s the nature of power and politics and economic need.
But who would you rather be governed by? The old guard, or a new guard that was radicalized and politicized in opposition to our imperial invasion of Iraq?
The failure of the Iraq War has opened up a potential Liberal Renaissance that will change how this country views any number of things: imperialism, energy independence, health care, veteran’s services, fiscal policy, etc. We’ll never have the really left-wing government that many desire so long as the Constitution is unamended and dictates a two-party system. America will remain a very conservative place where neither party is likely to tack too far away from the center for very long without a correction. But we are changing where the center is. And we believe in what we are doing. And we are doing it from within the Democratic Party because it is the only way we can influence the actual power structures in this country short of civil disobedience and civil unrest.
sjct says:
The biggest fracture line in the “lefty” blogosphere is between those who still believe in The System and the few remaining voices who have to courage to say The System is fucked. You can’t beat The System by crashing into it because once you’re inside, you’re IT! You can’t sit around “Drinking Liberally,” imagining that you’re part of some “progressive movement” because that’s intellectual masturbation; you’re just diddled with your dick, throwing words and postures at a System that is laughing at you! Laughing at your impotence!
If she was here with us in the trenches I am confident that she would not see all we’re doing as ‘diddling with our dicks’.
Also in orange.
Sorry Boo, but until you can find a way to take on the largest and most powerful interests on the planet and beat them you’re just whistlin’ past the graveyard. I wager that those “progressive” reps and senators that have just been elected have already been taken on a sight-seeing tour of K street by Messrs Emanuel and Schumer. Will they be better than what came before? Sure. Will they be good? Doubt it. One or two might be able to maintain the kind of intellectual and moral focus of a Feinstein but that won’t be enough when the powers that be start threatening job losses. This country won’t jump to the left when the results of the Bush insanity finally starts to set in. They’ll go right–and hard right. They control all the levers and they aren’t bothered by conscience or morality or constitutional values.
Are you sure you’ve picked the canonical example of intellectual and moral focus?
Dianne Feinstein … not my idea of the top of the heap.
depends on what heap you’re talking about.
Look, young man, I’ve been in the trenches. 🙂 I don’t doubt that you think you’re making a difference. I did, too. I was out there in the streets before protests morphed into parades. And I was behind the scenes, walking the halls of power for my guys who were, of course, better guys than the last guys.
Who would have ever imagined back in 1965 that Andrew Young, a man who was there when MLK, Jr. was assasinated, would embrace — physically and politically — George W. Bush on the stage of the Atlanta Civic Center before Dubya got re-selected.
I remember Andy at Selma when he was full of passion and ideals about helping and serving “the people.” But he became the former Ambassador Young who rides in limousines and had a cocaine problem for a while. He’s an elder statesman now; he’s a member of the Club!
I was part of a movement, oh yeah, and we changed the world. “People of color” are so much better off than they were. Some people became more open, more tolerant. There are new targets for hatred and prejudice.
But government — The System — didn’t change. The City of Atlanta has had a new “new guard” since the 70’s and they’re just as corrupt, just as nepotistic, just as self-serving as the Dixiecrats that came before them.
It’s just the way it is. The dogs on top piss down. You’re scrambling up the heap now. Let’s talk again in 20 years if it all hasn’t fallen apart by then.
I don’t mean to call you out at all. This is just my response to your diary, which I thought was very well done.
That’s all right then, carry on.
>>If she was here with us in the trenches I am confident that she would not see all we’re doing as ‘diddling with our dicks’.<<
Can you not see the arrogance in the automatic assumption that she has never been in the trenches, and that you are experiencing something brand new no one else ever has?
Your confidence is not based on a very broad foundation of understanding/and or respecting people of all generations, in my opinion.
Here in Philly.
If you insist on giving an unforgiving interpretation to what I write then you are always going to find a way to be offended.
She wrote in her diary about her work on her farm, feeding chickens and so forth. I have no problem with that, but I wrote about what is going on in Philly, and she wrote that we were doing little beyond drinking and diddling ourselves. All I mean is that if she came to Philly and hung out with us I don’t think she would characterize what we do that way.
Deflecting attention from the content of an comment back onto the perceived flaws of the commentor can be also be a good way to dismiss anything one does not wish to hear.
That’s not what I’m doing. What don’t I want to hear? I’m glad you’re here to discuss this. So discuss.
I was wrong to make that comment in response to something you to said to sjct. She most certainly does not need me to speak on her behalf. Sorry, sjct. And Boo, I do not believe you are glad I am here and I will bow out of this thread now.
The leftwing blogosphere, now fragmenting and devolving into all meta, all the time. (Frankly, as of late, I’ve seen more susbstantive posting at my own crappy blog, when calculated as a percentage of posts, than some of the BBBs.)
But since I’m here, I guess that I’ll let myself be drawn into this for just a brief moment, realizing that someone somewhere will find my words upsetting. (Hate me or not, it doesn’t really matter.) But probably this belongs at MoBettaMeta.
Nanette’s post (the complete one at MoBettaMeta) assumes that that the lefty BBBs are largely composed of affluent whites male bloggers sitting at their keyboards. I have seen no links or proof of any kind to support this. In fact, my attendance at ykos seemed to indicate otherwise. Certainly there were as many women as men present. This is hardly scientific but I’d prefer go with my own observations rather than usupported assumptions.
Activism, now pursued by some through blogging, did not start with the advent of Bushco and will not end with this administration’s demise. If Bushco brought more people into activism, that is no bad thing. Hopefully many will be interested in remaining active when Bushco is gone. Time will tell and new motivations will likely arise.
As to “crashing through the gates” into the system, it’s what happens afterwards that matters. In and of itself, crashing through does not make one a tool of the system. Markos now has the attention of many. He could use this focus as a tool for change, to the extent possible, but has apparently chosen otherwise. But it was not the crashing that has made him a part of the prevailing system, it was his apparent choice once he broke through.
It’s rough being “…a bile and rant and bitterness and chastising of Booman…” spewer.
Ya gotta be careful who you talk to and where you post. The internets tubes have eyes.
While that may have been accurate of the convention (wouldn’t know, I wasn’t there), a simple google of “daily kos gender poll” yeilded this DKOS poll that puts the number of males to females partisipating at DKOS at just over two to one.
Well, keres posted the dkos poll (and polls are all I have really to go by), and while that one is recent, those numbers have been fairly consistent over a few polls. Also, here is the latest mydd demographics poll, with an even bigger ratio. I suspect Bootrib and mlw may not fall into this precise pattern as far as gender/sex – or at least that there would be such a wide gap, but I have nothing to back that up – am not sure when the last demographic polls were done on those sites.
(Here is a link to the full post, by the way (which is actually a comment in reply to an MSOC comment), for context, for those who don’t have the link.)
Almost all polls show that men dominate online communities. MLW and BT are exceptions.
But to discuss this is not to really tackle your points, which I thought were excellent and worth discussing.
upper middle class male (Tigger) opinion it matters less that affluent white males are overrepresented than it does what they are representing. A radical could in theory be an affluent white male (Chalmers Johnson might be a good candidate, for example, although I haven’t seen his 1040 form…)
We live in times that beg for radicals to smash what we call “understanding” of our country and the world at large. 9/11 was a window of opportunity to do just that. Now lost, of course, in this silly notion that a “war on terror” can be “won.”
Those who joined the left-wing blogging community because they “understand” that Bush broke everything and Hillary will fix it all are not going to solve anything nor smash any gates. At best they will be applying a BandAid(tm) to severed major arteries, for a country that just hasn’t had the good sense to realize it’s going to bleed out into something dramatically different than its constantly trumpeted mythological view of itself.
Lately I’ve come to feel that it is too late, as I read and reread the haunting words of Martin Luther King Jr:
I’m hoping The Hundred Acre Wood of America can secede.
at least about the demographics of bloggers.
if we discount markos and duncan, which i do on a regular basis now, there are more women holding the top blogging spots than men. and as for “white,” i’m a big fan of man eegee and steve gilliard who are quite active (ie, several a day) in their blogging submissions.
with these diaries. Maybe a MetaLeft or Popular Front block on the front page to keep it going awhile?
Lot’s of excellent stuff here, but I don’t have time to wade through it all right now.
I am any thing but affluent. I have been active in politics and civil rights for 40 years. I never worked with the party but with campaigns. I am involved in the party now along with hundreds if not thousands across the country who are sick of the DC insiders and want our party back. Will I sell out? Hell no. That is why I do as much as I can to make a difference and make change. Do I think things will be perfect? Once again, Hell NO! Bit I have to do something and if that means marching, voting, podcasting, blogging, and talking non-stop to those schmucks in DC to try and make them understand or we can replace them, then so be it. I think I have another 40 years in me for this. At least I hope like hell I do.
If more people got involved instead of complaining but doing nothing, maybe things would change faster. Just my humble opinion which I am sure many will not agree with. LOL
So many assumptions are made. It is disrespectful and incorrect to assume that those of us who are not participating within the political system in the same ways you all are, are doing “nothing but complaining.” That is an insult.
There are endless ways to be involved in trying to help this country survive, outside of direct political involvement, and I spend a fair share of every day I live doing them. My choices of how to contribute to the change we are seek, are most certainly no less valid and worthwhile than yours.
Did I say that anyone not involved with the party was just complaining? Why do you look for offense when none was meant? There are quite a few people in the party and not in it who do nothing but complain. I did not mean that about everyone.
That’s good to know.
I hope like hell that you do have another 40 years too.
Booman, let me ask you this question. How typical do you think your experiences in Philly politics are when compared with other major cities in this country? You have been to national “meet-ups” and have met your peers in the blogging world from around the country. Is the progress you can see in your area happening elsewhere?
Although I have experienced some of the frustration expressed by Nanette in the local Democratic Party scene where I live, as a sixty something who is basically retired now, I appreciate and yes even envy the passion I feel in your writing, and the contributions of many folks who have been front pagers at the pond. Although I’m a white guy and compared to many might be viewed by some as well off, I will have a “burr in my hide” over a number of issues for the rest of my life. I can’t say as I have ever been “comfortable” and don’t think I will be anytime soon. Living through almost thirty years of “conservative” political dominance can do that to a guy.
If we retake the White House in 08, (that is a very big if, even now) I sincerely hope our nominee is one capable of leading a return to a progressive agenda. Lots of political appointees to let go, lots of places in our government to re-invent, lots of places for passionate folks who can lead and manage departments that are about to disappear. Many folks who can remember a time when the Federal Government actually functioned are, like me, too old for the next round. People from your generation are old enough to have been raised by parents who had “that old time religion” (politically speaking) but still young enough to have the passion, energy and will to do something about it. 08 is pretty darn close to our last chance to turn this ship around. Those in power now, and those who control them, have been at it so long that there is more than a single issue to fix or make right. A lot more.
So keep doing what you are doing Booman. I hope there are hundreds of thousands of people around the country that share your progressive vision, and are taking hold of the political reins of the Democratic Party. If I am fortunate enough to live for another decade or two, I would like to know “it’s going to be OK” after I’m gone. Right now in 2007, there is no way I can tell myself that.
Jeebers! I’m a well-off heterosexual, employed, married, straight white male! I must be EVIL!
What a crock!
I’ve been involved in politics since I was 7….LONG before there was a blogosphere, and I will be involved ’til I die. I got beat up working for George McGovern. I’ve voted in every election but one since I was 18 (that one was an off-year special election and I was 5000 miles away)
The people who are diddling with their dicks are the people who are outside the system, doing absolutely nothing that will ever matter, because no one is listening.
Fine. Let them. Me? I’ve got a country to change.
It’s the people INSIDE the system who get things done. People like, say LBJ. You don’t get more inside the system than LBJ. Yet who passed the Voting Rights Act? LBJ
People like FDR. Damn was he inside the system! New deal.
People like Bill Richardson. Treaty in Darfur.
People like Jimmy Carter. Camp David accords.
People like the Kennedys (system!) getting a GOOD education law passed (guaranteeing a free and appropriate education for all).
Best comment in this whole thread.
and i’ve said so before.
we need more people ready to get down in the mud and fight to the death.
LBJ and the voting rights act. And those that where protesting in Alabama had nothing to do. Today, there is no desinfranchisement.
Richardson and Darfur. Today thereis no problem there.
Jimmy Carter and Camp David. Enjoy the peace in the Middle East
Kennedy and “Free” and “good” education. Kids in scholl are doing great. No problem there either.
What was I thinking?
I overstated my case in reaction to the hostility evident in the original post.
Sorry for the interruption. Was watching Six feet under.
If I recall correctly, this country was founded by those working outside the system. King George was deaf to taxation without representation.
And how much did employers listen to workers demands for an 8 hour work day. Those Chicago workers were nothing but trouble makers.
And civil rights… Oh, mentioned that above.
And that is only in this country. No need to get into how many governments and systems werre thrown out of the window thanks to those trouble makers.
Mohandas Gandhi, naturally comes to mind.
The teachers union that went on strike in Norway during the Quisling regime, in a successful effort to prevent a Nazi curriculum from becoming the public school curriculum.
Dare we go on?
Hi James. Human history is filled with cases such as that. Just too long to cite them. The thing is that they are generally the last resortdue to the violence that comes with it. Unfortunately sometimes it is necesary.
Founders of the country – many (maybe most) were NOT outside the system. A lot of them were wealthy planters – the aristocracy of the day. (Not all of course)
Just because you are inside the system doesn’t mean you can’t overthrow it.
Forget their economic position. Out of the system of not?
The point here is why take something out of the table?Most of the time people work within the system. But there are times when things get done outside as well. People are tired, and Congress is not doing what they should do. And if we dont do something about it, they will continue to take us for granted.
Bottom line: people need to be working within and outside the system at the same time, and stop berating each other for the ways in which they prefer to attempt to change the system.
Yup.
He used to be a sort of hero. I am reading a book on imperialism by William Appleman Williams. His foreign policy and the institutions he set up are the problem.
Bigotry is when you believe that all the members of a certain group are a certain way.
All Blacks are lazy. BIGOTRY
All Jews are greedy. BIGOTRY.
All Gays have HIV. BIGOTRY.
All Arabs are terrorists. BIGOTRY.
All affluent white males are shallow. BIGOTRY.
I don’t know Nanette, I didn’t see her original post. But if this is typical of her, and not out of context, then I haven’t missed much. I don’t like BIGOTS. Even on the left.
Actually, it’s okay that you don’t know me, and you’ll not see much of me anyway, so that doesn’t matter. However, as I think it was poor form to take a portion of my post (even if to make certain points) without a link to the original, I’ll go ahead and post the entire thing here. The post was by catnip, with portions of it my comment – the purpose of the entire thing to further conversation about the various factions of the left, how we can interact, and how we can move forward.
[……. Original Post……..]
The Divisions of the Left
In the previous thread, Nanette posted a comment in response to this post by Maryscott O’Connor at My Left Wing.
I think Nanette’s comment serves as a good jumping off point for the broader conversation about the divisions in the left-wing blogosphere and it expands on the point that many people want to aim for more than just winning elections for Democrats, which I had tried to address in this post.
Here’s her reply to Maryscott:
Some of us have had long discussions about the role of “The Others” in relation to the big box blogs and the wider political scene in general while trying to address the huge topic of American exceptionalism as well – a topic that affects domestic and foreign policy attitudes. Sometimes, they’re not easy conversations to have but, imho, they are certainly necessary if we are going to try to work with each other. You have to recognize the divisions before you can deal with them and then it’s a matter of figuring out what to do about them in a way that embraces the diversity of opinions, needs and goals. An age old challenge, to be sure, but one that the left-wing blogosphere needs to keep talking about in order to move forward.
[…… End original post……]
It’s a conversation that is needed, I think.
I’d be happy to link to you on any other site. Unfortunately, my defensive mechanisms prevent me from linking to sites that refer to what I write as ‘this vile pile of steaming racist jingosim.’
Kind of like I don’t link to LGF or Drudge. I meant no offense.
Well, there is a lot more there than that, but even so – while the portion you quoted sort of fits in with the points you make, it also apparently gives the impression that I am only attacking white males – which I am not. Although I do think the whole “we are the leaders of the blogosphere” nonsense, and the “we are THE Progressive Movement” stuff is a bunch of hooey (which I’ve told both Bowers and Stoller as well) when you take into consideration that it is in no way a broad based, diverse “movement”. Online, anyway – what people are doing in their local communities, offline, may be very different.
Anyway, people can read the post for themselves, now.
You raise excellent questions. Here’s a question for you. In the past couple of years I have met Gov. John Warner, Sen. Russ Feingold, Rep. Chakah Fattah, Rep. Patrick Murphy, Rep. Joe Sestak, Senate candidate Chuck Pennacchio, multiple mayoral candidates, state senate candidates, state rep candidates, judicial candidates, city council members and candidates, down to the level ward leaders and committepeople.
They come to me because I am so-called opinion leader. They want to influence me because the assume I influence others. A lot of people here would be better representatives or more knowledgeable about the issues, but they don’t have these opportunities to interface with actual power or potential power.
So, at what point I am supposed to take responsibility for being a leader of THE progessive movement and try to represent my perception of the THE movement wants?
You can probably see that it isn’t an easy thing to define. No one elected me to be their representative. It’s impossible to speak even for this community, let alone the whole netroots.
And all you have to do is come to Drinking Liberally here in Philly to see how egalitarian it is. I don’t take a leadership role, rather I am a basic equal among many that are each working together along different tracks. And, yet, I do get these opportunities to influence policy, however limited.
It’s the on the ground stuff that people don’t see online that leads to this disconnect between what we are doing in real life and what we are perceived to be doing online.
Beyond that, as I have mentioned, a lot of people don’t believe in and haven’t signed on for change within the system.
So, a lot of issues to contemplate.
At what point do we let leaders lead? I’m defining leaders as those who have put some serious skin on the line in terms of building a widely trafficked blog, taken on intractable issues in their communities or via intellectual discourse and policy wonkery, jump-started grass roots movements, revived moribund parties, etc.?
Booman doesn’t seem to relish the leader, I speak for the new wave, kind of role (unlike some others who shall remain nameless) yet he’s perceived as an influencer and a leader.
Can we as leftists, left-liberals and progressives accept that? He wasn’t elected, he wasn’t chosen, but due to timing, good writing, a sharp intellect and keen insight he’s achieved some status.
Maybe this isn’t how we would ideally order community, especially if we’re concerned with issues like structural racism and sexism and giving voice to the voiceless.
Can we accept it? Should we accept it? If that’s the status quo, how do we work with it, live with it, or change it to better reflect our worldview and vision?
Too many variables. I suppose it depends on what they (politicians of whatever level) want from you, what you want from them, who they are trying to influence, who you are trying to represent, and who they believe you (et al) can influence. And why.
You can take the responsibility whenever you wish, that’s up to you and whoever else, I imagine. My concern is not really with how and who deals with the politicians so much – or who works within the system, so on… as long as those who are presently doing so (and by this I mean the “leaders of the blogosphere”, not especially on the ground activists and so on) realize that they actually represent a fairly narrow slice of both the political activist and social change/outside the system blogosphere.
A part of an overall progressive movement -(although some would argue with the “progressive” part, for some), surely, but not THE progressive movement, by any means.
I should have said Mark Warner, not John, my mistake.
Damn Virginian Warners.
The best I can do is to represent to these power brokers the ‘sense’ of this community. That means telling a Casey staffer that I don’t buy his position on gay marriage is a genuine epiphany, telling Mark Warner that he should stop with the anti-Chavez propaganda, pushing an anti-war message to Murphy and Sestak, opposing gambling to Fattah, etc.
If people don’t appreciate me being in the position to express that ‘sense’ or don’t agree with it, that’s life.
But this is a movement. And it is being reckoned with. And it will be reckoned with. How broad is it? It’s pretty broad…especially in Philadelphia.
While you might not want to link to a particular site, the reader had no way of knowing the cuts you made to the original post and how that changed the meaning.
If you had included the last three paragraphs of Nanette’s post plus catnip’s concluding statement, I doubt that there would have been as many negative reactions as we see with your cuts.
You know, for a site you don’t feel comfortable linking to, you certainly do refer to and respond quite often to what goes on at MoBettaMeta…
I’d also like to note for those who don’t make the effort to find the diary being referenced: Some of the commenters to that diary rejected the author’s interpretation and defended BooMan from it.
I’m not impressed. Those people spent years reading my stuff. Mild disagreement by one or two people is nothing. They should demand that crap be taken down or refuse to associate themselves with the site.
If I posted that about a member here, with that little justification for my argument, you’d all have me for lunch, and with good reason.
There ya’go. You’re talking about censorship, about shunning people who say things you don’t like… who are, afterall, responding to things you said that they don’t like. I, personally, feel that everyone on the internet should be free to spout whatever crap they want. And then not get so personally offended when someone calls it crap.
I put up a rant and someone down thread called it “Bull!” I don’t mind. They’re entitled to call it as they see it.
censorship? I’m talking about associating yourself with someone so stupid and spiteful as to call me a racist.
Call you a racist, that is. I’d not been following this one, but it also seems like an interesting conversation to have (somewhere). In case when referencing this, you held to your no linking policy I’ll just go ahead and put the post here – by Arcturus:
………… Original Post………..
tale of two worlds – which Left are you on?
Just wanted to highlight this socio-linguistic diamond:
& where does this vile pile of steaming racist jingosim come from? Lou Dobbs? Tom Lancredo? David Duke?
naaanh . . . that pungent leftie analysis comes from Martin, proprietor, Booman Tribune
(& note that it’s total ad hominem in the piece)
how utterly clueless can one get?
Frustration with the quality and limits of discourse around racial topics, along with rampant uncritical jingoism (err, Exceptionalist Theory) of the so-called self-proclaimed ‘liberal progressives’, was one of the reasons I found myself responding to DtF’s invite to participate here last August.
…………….End original post…………
As you can see, he didn’t call you a racist – he called what you wrote a “vile pile of steaming racist jingoism” – which, while no doubt unpleasant to see, is not the same thing as calling you a racist. Strangely enough, there have been conversations going on about the differences between the two things (“This is a racist statement” and “You are a racist”) in various places in the blogosphere lately, spawning sometimes good conversations and also helping people to educate themselves on the differences between the two and also moving on into deeper conversations about anti racism, privilege, so on. Much needed conversations, in my view.
Anyway, he called what you wrote a “”vile pile of steaming racist jingoism” because… well, it was. I’ve never seen Ciudad Juarez, and no doubt would be horrified if I did… at least, if I saw the part that apparently lies just over the river. I did look it up online tho, and saw various pictures of modern buildings, outdoor cafes, regular city scenes, seats of government… and what I would describe as shanty towns. Deplorable, tragic conditions, it looks like, where the city apparently stuffs their very poor. Nothing at all wrong with mentioning that. Here is where the racist jingoism comes in tho…
Shorter: If we’re not careful, we could wind up just like them.
I’m sorry but no… just no. I sometimes think that people, when apparently caught up in the grips of exceptionalism and rah rah, lose their perspective, their memories and their minds.
We are just like them.
With our checks and balances, one of the (not so) “unique characteristics that have made [our country] so successful” is apparently that we hide our very poor and their shanty towns better? Or maybe just give them better names… like “urban poor” or “inner city dwellers”, or “rural poor”, “the underserved” and when all else fails – and it often does – we call them “the homeless”. Whatever, we seemingly make them easily forgettable.
You want shanty towns, look under some bridges sometime, and you’ll see entire families in them. Or stroll through some of the rat and mold infested “housing”, look into the faces of the dead eyed and hopeless children, and then see how much sense it makes to point across the river and say “but, at least we’re not like them!”.
I’m not even getting into the (US, not to mention Mexican) policies used to keep both groups on either side of the river impoverished, as you not only know all that stuff, but you know all about the above as well. That you had a bout of “racist jingoism”, however, does not necessarily make you a racist and, as people have said here and there, there were those that immediately defended you against the (non) accusation that you were one.
That doesn’t make your original post, and the decision to use that sort of example to make whatever point you were making about checks and balances, any more justified, however.
Nanette, I respect you but I believe that the above is utter crap. I live in a mostly poor black apartment dwelling part of Philadelphia. It’s insulting to me for you to even suggest that I have some kind of white privilege rose-colored glasses about American poverty.
America has a per capita income of $43740 (6th in the world behind Luxembourg, Norway, Switzerland, Denmark, and Iceland. Mexico has a per capita income of $7,310 (45th in the world).
Mexico is poorer than Croatia or Estonia. It is not a wealthy country. Now…if you want to explain the EXCLUSIVELY to American predation as some people seem to, that is your business. I think that is totally shallow analysis. If you want to attribute to hispanic culture, race and race-mixing, or something else…you can make that argument too. And I think you’re making a very dubious argument that is racist. But if you attribute primarily to the much more favorable business climate in the United States, THAT IS A TOTALLY NON-RACIAL EXPLANATION.
And by business climate I do not mean that Washington doesn’t have corruption as some have suggested. But comparing the corruption of America to Mexico is like comparing the corruption of Germany to Nigeria. There are corrupt governements and then there are CORRUPT governments.
If you want to drag your own racial assumptions into the argument you can accuse me of being racist because I pointed out that Nigeria (the most notoriously corrupt government and economy in the world) is, in fact, more corrupt than Germany.
It’s a fact. America has excellent conditions for investment that include a strong court system that enforces contracts, a government that rarely appropriates private property, the SEC, civil stability, a stable currency, a highly trained work force, etc. etc.
But all of that flows from a strong constitutional system based on checks and balances.
To call this observation racist is ridiculous.
And to say I am writing racist things but am not a racist is not a distinction I find much comfort in. I am sure future employers will not be amused by it either. And to think that this character assassination isn’t coming from political enemies but from former members of this site….
It’s outrageous.
And nor did I. Call you a racist, that is.
I went and read your original article to see how you tied that part quoted into the rest of it or brought up the points you are bringing up here and, as far as I can see, you didn’t.
Either way tho, it doesn’t make an awful lot of sense, this stuff about the superior business climate and the per capita income and richer country, so on, when considering your comparison because mostly it just highlights the fact that we (rich US)have all that stuff – a superior form of government that is corrupt but less corrupt that others, money coming out the wazoo, a “strong” court system (cough), civil stability and and and… and we still treat our less fortunate like disposable people – trash.
Yeah, few do… thus all the conversations here and there about the distinctions.
Anyway, I’ve given my view of both your post and Arcturus’ and you’ve given yours of both his and mine, so that’s all done on my end. People can take from it what they will.
What accounts for the huge gap in prosperity between the United States (El Paso) and Mexico (Juarez)?
Arguments made by Arcturus:
Arguments made by racists:
Arguments made by me:
1) the answer lies in the differences between the governments of Mexico City and Washington DC. There is no racial or cultural explanation. Other explanations (like natural resources etc. are insufficient).
a) specifically, our Constitution sets up a separation of powers which keeps our courts independent and much less corrupt.
b) the legislature acts as a check on the executive and vice-versa, the Senate checks the impulses of the House, etc….which leads to…
c) political stability, limited government that doesn’t appropriate private property, overly tax, enforcement of contracts, oversight of the stock market, etc.
d) which all makes America a place people want to invest and do business.
Take away our checks and balances and we will quickly become a place no more attractive for investment and business than Mexico.
Did I spell all that out in my original post? No. It wasn’t strictly about the differences between Mexico and America. It was about the importance of protecting our system of checks and balances for maintaining our prosperity.
The entire point was political and about domestic politics.
But for Arcturus, the mere suggestion that there is an economic difference between America and Mexico is racist. Why? Because that economic difference only exists because of our predation and has nothing to do with our political system. To suggest we have a superior political system is to suggest we have a superior race. That’s patently absurd and only shows that he is taking the prejudice of others and tacking onto me.
I don’t even think of America as a white nation, although I do think of Mexico as an hispanic one. His point is totally bankrupt and basically malicious. The only defense against its maliciousness is pure stupidity. But, of course, he’s only reading this site to spot opportunities to be malicious.
It’s a new career I’ve dubbed the ‘paparazzi’.
I don’t believe in censoring comments on blogs unless they’re fucking egregiously racist or inciting violence, frankly. Or disruptive.
Do you go around deleting every comment here that you don’t want to be associated with in any way?
First, wouldn’t that be TIME consuming?
Second, where do you stop? Mo Betta has some people posting there who hate my fucking guts and post pretty vile shit about ME, too — should THAT be deleted, as well?
I don’t think so. It bothers me to see it, naturally — hurts my feelings, and pisses me off when it’s an outright falsehood. But I’d rather go in and correct the lie (regardless of whether or not I get shouted down or ignored or whatever) than have a moderator come in and DELETE the damned evidence of these motherfucking assholes’ behaviour.
Aaaaanyway.
That’s certainly a much more reasonable statement.
I was basing my statement on what I read, which is, up to then, all I knew of you. I tried to make that clear.
No worries, and no need to apologize. The portion of the post alone is a tad ambiguous and, without the context of familiarity (or even with), could be taken as other than how it was meant.
Changing politicians a few at a time will not work because by the time the next election rolls around the politicians you elected the previous election will be corrupted.
Everything becomes corrupted over time, unions, bureaucracies, politicians, and governments.
In spite of the anti-war position being a majority, I bet there will be two war candidates running against each other in 2008.
I have heard some say that if the stock market gets down to 6% and big money is beating the war drums, if the president does not go to war, he will be thrown out of office. Has any president ever been thrown out of office? Maybe Clinton because he refused to go to war after receiving the PNAC letter. I don’t know.
If the Dems win the election without a respectable platform it will be the same shit over again. There will be no reason to change.
What do you think of the media 11 years after Bill’s Telecom Reform Act of 1996. Do you like it? How many years will it take to un-screw? 5, 10, 20 yrs.? Will it ever be un-screwed? Will Hillary un-screw the media?
What do you think of the labor vote and the utter disregard of Bill had of it? He gave 20% of the largely labor vote away to Perot because he refused to speak for labor. His labor secretary resigned because of his policies toward labor. Labor now votes on religious issues. Why should they vote for Democrats that were traitors? How long will it take for the Dems to get the labor vote back? Will they ever get it back?
If the resources, including oil, belonged to the people do you think there would have been an Iraq war?
In this case Deaniac Principles:
1.) Compete in every district
2.) Win elections for school board, soil & water commissions, dog catcher etc.
3.) Rinse and Repeat
It won’t change things overnight but it will build a counterbalance to the elites over the time. Real people with real lives making real decisions over things that matter most to them locally.
It creates a groundswell of people not beholden to the status quo.
I agree that working entirely within the system will not work. Stopping bigotry is just going to work by lobbying the government – and passing a gay marriage bill, will not stop anti-gay bigotry (it’s a start). Getting smart, universal health care for everyone would be possible working within the system.
I am little tired of this rage against the “rich, white blogosphere.” I’m a white, middle-class college student on student loans. I don’t have the financial flexibility to dedicate my time to politics outside of internet activism. God forbid a Democratic campaign actually pay me to work for them – the horror! They ask me to volunteer 40 hour weeks…for what? Pay me! My time isn’t free. I can’t even get a paying summer internship in winning House candidate’s office (even though I donated money). So I do what I can on the internet in my spare time. Some people are always complaining and whining about how others are doing things right. But what are those people actually doing to make things better right now?
as a new poster, and an old white guy, i just wanted to comment on this electronic media as a whole, which kinda fits the theme of the post. the internet, and blogs in general, have given “free press” a whole new meaning. i no longer have to watch tv or read newspapers for my news. if i choose not to read kos or any of the others, or choose to read them, no problem. i think it is wonderful that all of you can have your space and your say, including the commentators. this is a much more functional format than the old way, and i feel it will take liberalism to new heights, given that it is allowed to by our very regressive government. may God bless all of you!. philip.
which is that the blogs don’t support that much real on-the-ground reporting, mostly it’s just regurgitation of stuff the few remaining actual journalists write. Or more often than not, it’s refutation of the rancid sputum of pretend journalists like Thomas Friedman. But FAIR does it much better than most bloggers.
Sure, bloggers are great at cracking the case of the font-not-available-in-1973-typewriters swift boat documents, but we still desperately need real journalism. And for that you have to pay because journalists need to eat. (If you expect advertising to pay for it, as people do with the MSM, you’ll get exactly the same product online as you do from the MSM. If and when DailyKos is fully sponsored by ExxonMobil it will cease to have any possibility of meaning)
also available in blue.
I read both of the cited pieces and color me unimpressed.
Both writers’ line of argument reminds me of the
“punker than thou” anarchists in W. Philly, the people
who told me “property is theft” when I bought my
house. the squatter kids, one of whom now is building
a house on acres of previously undeveloped land in
northern maine. But I digress.
It strikes me that the left has the same dingaling
contingent as the right, except where the right sees a
“Red Dawn” post-apocalyptic Hobbesian wasteland, the
lefties see this “clan of the cavebear” shit but
communist too, where everyone shares and we sit in
circles Indian style to govern ourselves and sing fucking “kum-byu-ya” when we disagree. And maybe I’m
extra cynical about that whole strain of “we’ll govern ourselves, fuck the system” thought because I saw a friend of mine in W. Philly nearly driven from the
neighborhood, accused all sorts of shit pretty much
everyone now acknowledges never happened. Talk about “the system”, I haven’t seen anything quite as scary, corrupt, or anachronistic as organized anarchists holding a trial, the outcome of which had already been determined.
“The biggest fracture line in the “lefty” blogosphere
is between those who still believe in The System and
the few remaining voices who have to courage to say
The System is fucked. You can’t beat The System by
crashing into it because once you’re inside, you’re
IT! You can’t sit around “Drinking Liberally,”
imagining that you’re part of some “progressive
movement” because that’s intellectual masturbation;
you’re just diddled with your dick, throwing words and
postures at a System that is laughing at you! Laughing
at your impotence!”
Blah de blah blah blah. You know, this whole line of
reasoning fucking pisses me off. It’s hard to even respond to this crap because it’s so naive, a perfect example of letting the perfect stand in the way of the good.
OK SJCT, we agree that the system sucks. How’s about
you propose something feasible to replace it, cus
there are about 3,000,000 people depending on that System for food, heat, electricity, shelter and a host of other vital needs.
“diddling with our dicks”??? FUCK YOU: I personally
know DL’ers who campaigned for Anne Dicker, Pat
Murphy, pennachio, the list goes on. I was one of those volunteers. And yeah politicians sell out, but that’s the name of the game and has been since time immemorial. That’s why we VOTE.
Not to levy an ad hominem attack, but this
whole “you can’t engage with the system or you become
the system” shit is so fucking “pass the bong”, I’m
gonna have to burn some incense to get the smell out
of my clothes.
Sorry, pardon the rant. But then this is the same
person who believes “My answer: Because they are all
members of the same club. They’re all minions,
puppets, courtiers to Those Who Rule, to the greedy,
planet-destroying, uber-rich, fucking Legions of Satan
who control this planet! It’s fucking theater! A dumb
show to distract those who might, just might get so
agitated that they would riot in the streets and
overturn some bulletproof limousines!”
You’re SO right, so let’s just ignore politics and do nothing to influence it and we’ll live like braveheart, except also we’ll dumpster dive. And then when we’re hauled away for breaking laws that got passed without our input, we’ll rage against the machine and shake our puny fists.
My own negotiating model?
Little Mike Quill, the radical leader of the transit worker’s union in NY who called a strike on New Years Day 1966 after trading barbs with Mayor-elect John Lindsey for months…”Lindsley” as Quill insisted on referring to him in his rich Irish brogue.
When sentenced to jail for violation of some anti-labor act or other, Quill said that the judge who sentenced him could “Drop dead in his black robes.”
I got yer negotiation, right HERE!!!
AG
P.S. Quill and the transit workers won.
Had we one such legislator in a position of power in DC, we would win too.
this middle-class white male knew EXACTLY what Nanette and Catnip were talking about. The system is enabled partially by people like me, and those she named, who maybe see that injustice is happening, but who personally resent that WE will have less opportunity than our fathers did. We enable the likes of Kerry in the hopes that we can maybe ameliorate some of what is wrong WITHOUT GIVING UP OPPORTUNITIES WE FEEL WE’RE OWED. The world can’t sustain the level of consumption that seemed to be promised by the expansion of our economy post-WW2, and we just hate it.
Yes, I said “we”. I had to listen to a lot of people in my life in order to learn. During the time after I was laid off I saw some of what passes for “social services” in this country. I sat in unemployment offices, I tried to get a grant to pay my rent … and I needed far less help than the women and children waiting in interminable lines.
We have to learn to listen folks. You have to learn to face that our current system, our current bloodsucking of the globe, can’t continue. When we gas up our cars and buy our stuff and whine that we don’t get what we feel was promised to us, we need to learn that our current culture, our current systems of white privilege, are unsustainable, and all of the hatred and bigotries that were baked into us just by virtue of being raised in this culture are killing us, and killing the planet.
Let those expectations go. They are fueling our imperial wars, as they have fueled so many in the century just past. Let it go, listen, give up on a party that serves a status quo that will leave your children and grandchildren and nieces and nephews a broken world, a broken country, a planet that hates them for the changes we wouldn’t make now. The party will fuck you, fuck them, fuck as many as it can to maintain the booty for those welcome few.
As Scott Kesterson writes:
The Democratic Party is part of the problem. The Democratic Party embraces war in order to appear “strong”. The Democratic Party embraces multinational corporations to the detriment of the country as a whole. The Democratic Party increasingly embraces religious zealots and abandons GBLT citizens and women. The Democratic Party is only too happy to let black and poor Gulf-coasters drown, to drift without aid, to be strangers in this increasingly strange land.
I knew exactly what Nanette was writing about. I used to think that way, and some patient, enlightened people helped me to see the world anew, and a good world is one that sees the destruction of our two-party system before they have a chance to destroy the world.
this:
Damage limitation is IMPORTANT. And the “Fight the System” people are naturally in the business of damage limitation.
Why important? Because there are so many obstacles to dropping out. Your community garden can be shut down by eminent domain–as happened in Los Angeles. Will your town or city government support local business, or the mega-stores and global industries that vacuum money out of your neighborhood? Can you do anything about it? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. So a certain amount of energy has to be put into pressuring representatives where they can be pressured, and electing them when they can be elected.
That’s important.
The larger picture is that the US has peaked and is now on the course of declining–or collapsing–empire. This is too bad. We really missed our chance. But WHEN we missed it was 1980–that was the death-choice election, (and it wasn’t even rigged), and that is getting to be a long time ago now.
Human survival in North America could get VERY challenging. We are in no way prepared, and are in fact delusional. This week James Howard Kunstler quotes a Pennsyvania farmer on the craze for ethanol: For our next act, our nation is going to burn the last 8 inches of Midwestern top soil in our automobiles! Need I mention this is not a national strategy that bodes for survival, let alone prosperity? We have barely begun to even think about dealing with such pieces of the larger aspect. And such thought, in essence, is the job of the “Not in the System” people. Because the System is simply not going to do it. Even Al Gore won’t do it. Ever.
Do you notice there is no conflict of strategy? Just different task areas requiring different tactics.
No matter the “system”- it will be broken and need replacing soon enough. Once upon a time, the EPA protected the environment, now it provides cover and legal immunity for our biggest polluters.
Medicare and Medicaid once covered the medical needs of our most vulnerable citizens, now they serve as subsidies to a ruthless and heartless for-profit health care industry. Any new system will soon enough fall into the hands of those whose stand to gain by exploiting it….
Why?
Because those who stand to gain by exploiting a system will work on capturing that system full time- they will hire lawyers and lobbyists, run deceptive Harry and Louise ad campaigns, and fund think tanks to skew the national discourse. This will happen in any and all systems.
What can be done? Go live in a cave OR you can fight back by devoting time and energy to the details of the operation of the “system” a.k.a. “tweaking” it.
But it is important to realizing that the need for “tweaking” never ends. One of my biggest beefs with the progressive movement (or more accurately the good government movement) is the delusional belief that “plan X” or “System Y” will solve our problems. Of course they will, but for a few years at best- and then another scheme will be required to rid ourselves of those who have figured out how to exploit the “new” system. Unfortunately many on the left and in the progressive movement become attached to “their” solutions and are unable to see that they have become part of the problem. For example, the campaign finance obsessives who would outlaw blogs or supporters of “merit selection” of judges who refuse to see how this leads to the population of the bench by corporatist lawyers from big firms and deprives citizens of judges who might in some small way relate to the travails of the little guy.
The only system that works is to keep fighting for the average jane or joe to have the opportunity to make good in this world through hard work an playing by the rules.
become obsolete, too corrupt, or out of touch with the populace and are destroyed or forced to re-invent themselves. It seems to me the only question is “is this the time to do it?”. If it isn’t the time, I am sure it is close to such a point. What happens if a Dem gets elected and the media starts going after him or her? How will the president survive? It will surely happen with Fox and the others may jump on the bandwagon.
The left needs to support NPR, PBS, The Nation etc. so they become more dominant. England has The Independent and the Guardian. It can happen here.
Ummm:
more about the diddling..
The system has long been broken. What is being institutionalized is control of ideas. Ever notice the noticable absence of Cindy Sheehan? They don’t need her now the elections are over.
And instead of reigning in Bush’s endless global war on terra the Dems fully endorsed it by passing an anti-terror bill. A green light to a galactic waste of money in this shit.
http://www.spie.org/events/dssprogram
I agree that the system is fucked.
However, in all the discussions I have read on this thread, I have noticed a lot of language about the necessity of tearing down the system, and precious little about what will replace it. What do you propose, system-smashers? And what right do you have to impose your particular vision of society on people who are already invested to one degree or another in the existing system?
If you’re going to tear down the existing system, explain to me who will run and maintain the infrastructure that provides my 3-year-old child and me with running water, sanitation, and transportation. How will we eat? Who will grow the food? How will my child be educated? It gets cold here in winter: currently, my heat is provided by a privately owned oil delivery company, and a privately owned electric utility. Yet these are part of the system: what will replace the electric company? Who will run it? Or will it be like the highly successful Korean philosophy of juche
And with regard to sjct’s notion that politics is…
…what happens after you and your friends get done rioting in the streets and tipping over limousines? What exactly will that accomplish? How will that improve things for the rest of us that aren’t particularly interested in having a lootenany, and don’t see the 1965 Watts riots as the model for social change?
At the end of the day, people need to have food, shelter, clothing and a number of amenities (some like sanitation, clean water, and indoor plumbing have morphed into “necessities”). You propose tearing down the system that provides these things, but I don’t see what supports you propose to replace it (shades of the Iraq invasion there, eh?).
Look, if you want to live outside the system, be my guest: i know plenty of dumpster-diving, squat-living anarchists that are happy as clams (living off the crumbs left behind by the very system they despise until someone buys the abandoned house and pitches them back onto the street).
But if you’re going to propose that the system in which all of us live must be completely torn down, then you have a responsibility to explain just what it is you will replace it with.
“SJCT writes,
So basically, you’re saying that the system sucks, and we should all return to the land and feed ourselves.
That makes a fine individual choice, but what of those people who don’t know/aren’t physically capable of running a family farm? What about people who don’t own land to farm on? What about people who don’t have the aptitude for agriculture?
If “fend for ourselves” is what you propose to replace “the system”, then that train can leave the station without me, thank you very much. Call me a “tweaker”, call me what you will, but I have more than just myself to look out for.
I’ll take our imperfect system and do what i can to make it more equitable and fair any day over “prepare to survive the larger Historical Cycle, the one where governments fall and new ones arise after a period of chaos.” I gave up on Dungeons and Dragons in 7th grade.