Update [2007-4-14 23:19:14 by Steven D]: I’ve sent emails to all of the A-List bloggers listed below at the contact email addresses listed at their blogs, with a link to this post, and a request that they consider responding to what Kos wrote about Kathy Sierra. Hopefully those emails will be read by the persons to whom I addressed them.
Dear A-List Bloggers (including, but not limited to, Atrios, Joshua Micah Marshall, Jane Hamsher, Arianna Huffington, John Amato, Glenn Greenwald and John Aravosis):
Surely by now, you have become aware that Markos posted some really stupid shit at his blog about Kathy Sierra. Basically, he downplayed the death threats and rape threats she received in order to argue that censorship of online speech is a bad idea. Which it is.
The trouble with Markos’ post is that it was incredibly — well — incredibly misogynistic and callous toward Ms. Sierra’s plight, to say the least. And a large number of us B and C (and even lesser letter) list bloggers have called him on it. For your benefit, some of those blog posts are listed below (via Wampum):
(cont.)
brownfemipower at Woman of Color Blog
Zuzu at FeministeJessica at Feministing
Belledame at Fetch Me My Axe
Echnide of the Snakes
Mark at Norwegienty
Jill at Brilliant at Breakfast
Bitch PhD
Chris at Creek Running North and PandagonKip at Long Story, Short Pier
Bruce at Crablaw
Melissa at Shakesville
Jeff at Blog of the Moderate Left
Interrobang
Stephen at The ThinkeryAmp at Alas, A Blog
Amanda at Pandagon
Lindsey at Majikthise
Dan at Fitness for the Occasion
Nezua at The Unapologetic Mexican
My dear friend, Natasha, at Pacific Views (N. and I have a history of dealing with this kind of cyber-crap.)Kevin at Slant Truth
Aaron at Faithfully Liberal
Ntodd at Dohiyi Mir
Trifecta at New PairODimes
Steven D at Booman Tribune
Sheelzebub at Pinko Feminist HellcatMyra at Reno and Its Discontents
twoluvcats at a wealth of semi-useless information!
Scott at Lawyers, Guns and Money
PZ at Pharyngula
skippy the bush kangaroo
Mickle at The True Confessions of an Hourly Bookseller</aWebWeaver’s World
Renee at the Independent Bloggers’ Alliance (Renee also provides links to politicians and activists who post on dKos.)
Terrance at The Republic of T.
A not insignificant group of intelligent, thoughtful, progressive bloggers who have called Markos on the carpet for his, to be charitable, extremely insensitive, ignorant and demeaning remarks about not only the violent and sexual threats Kathy Sierra has endured, but what many female bloggers face online everyday. Yet, surprisingly, I’ve yet to see any of you “big time”, important voices of the left side of the blogosphere (at least, those of you I have listed above) speak out on this matter. Not one post, in fact. Which strikes me as a little odd.
Now, maybe you have been too busy to notice what Markos wrote regarding poor Ms. Sierra, or haven’t had time to read and process it in order to prepare a proper response. Or maybe you’re reluctant to tell a friend of yours that he’s just stepped in a pile of manure and really ought to clean off his shoes before he makes an even bigger mess. I don’t know. But I do know that Markos sure as hell isn’t listening to any of the rest of us, who, God knows, have tried very hard to get him to see the error of his ways.
So, let me appeal to you. Maybe you’ll have better luck that we have had. Maybe you can get Markos to see that admitting his mistakes makes him a bigger man, not a smaller, weaker one. Maybe if you speak up against the reprehensible and uncalled for comments he leveled at Kathy Sierra, and by extension, at all other women online who’ve ever received threats, or been demeaned and belittled by sexist and sexually harassing comments, he will see the light, and come clean.
Really, all it would take on his part is a simple apology, and an admission that he was wrong, and a lot of the anger and outrage he has generated among his fellow liberals and progressives, both men and women, would be forgotten, or at least forgiven. Not that big a deal, you would think. It’s what we teach our children when they are still in diapers. When you’ve done something wrong, when you’ve hurt someone, say you’re sorry.
So, will you help us, and even more important, will you help Markos, by speaking out? You have the big soap box, not us. Many of you know him personally, not us. And isn’t it the duty of his friends to tell him that he’s screwed the pooch on the Affaire le Sierra? Isn’t it more likely that if he hears from the people he considers his “peers” that he needs to make amends, the message might actually get through to him?
Please give it some serious consideration, will you? I hope to see all of you posting about this matter at your earliest convenience. To paraphrase the title to an earlier post I addressed to Markos directly regarding this matter, “It’s the right thing to do.”
So, please. Just do it.
Sincerely,
Steven D
Yeah, Yeah. I know I’m a bit obsessed with this topic. Hopefully it will be the last one I feel compelled to make.
I guess having a daughter recently hasn’t taught him anything yet. But something like this does not surprise me after three years of being acquainted with his propensity to mouth off about women.
Like I’ve said about some of my students, you’re too young to be soooo old.
Amazing how much you miss when you lay off the blogosphere to get your finances in order.
Meanwhile, the lady Crimson Knights of Rutgers are getting death threats and hate mail because of Imus’ firing. They were in the middle of this until they, with the support of their college/community, began speaking out.
Women bloggers deserve our support and understanding. Especially those doing crucial investigative reporting not seen in the MSM.
The video reporting on the Libby case by the women of FiredogLake also deserve Peabody awards…
You wonder what indeed possessses Kos on certain days.
The spirit of his hero, Ronald Reagan? You know, the President who sponsored the slaughter of leftist rebels in El Salvador (where Kos’ family was allied with the right-wing elite)?
Is that true? The bit about his family? Just curious.
If you read the biography on DailyKos, Kos’ family moved back and forth between the United States and El Salvador.
Kos’ uncle was the Minister for Education for El Salvador during the 1980s. At the time Kos’ uncle was a government official, right-wing death squads were roaming the countryside, wiping out campesinos (peasants) who allied themselves with the political left.
The political class (those allowed to hold high office) in El Salvador has always been small: perhaps 30 families rotate the political offices amongst them. That means the Moulitsas family is, shall we say, well-connected. The very fact that they were allowed to leave El Salvador at that time says that they had a freedom of movement that the ordinary Salvadoran peasants sure didn’t have.
And yes, Kos has written many times that he admired Ronald Reagan. Reagan is Kos’ hero and the model of what a Republican ought to be.
As for me, I voted against Reagan twice and hated not only his politics but the empty-headed, empty-hearted man himself. And Reagan was STILL a much better President than the current occupant!
You can find the article about the right-wing affiliation of the Moulitsas family at this Washington Monthly article: Kos Call by Benjamin Wallace-Wells
Thanks for that.
As for Reagan, well, I still can’t relate or empathize with the impulse to admire that guy. My very first political memory is watching the ’84 returns come in on TV (I was into the big map behind the newscaster) and every time a state went for Ronnie my dad said “dammit!”. He swore a lot that night. Elections and cussing have gone hand in hand for me ever since.
mercenaries.
This was back during the first Fallujah episode.
Well, he is not the most graceful writer, and he did not make his remarks . . . gracefully.
Ironically, he got slammed for that.
Still, he is indeed well connected, and farther right than most of us think.
Earlier I had tried to put something up and it was pulled down quickly.
I am beginning to see the issue, but still feel, due to personal experience, that the best defense against some right wingnut twit is the law and a hard pair of fists. I learned this as a Kerry worker in 2004 against rednecks in Oswego county, New York.
I am with Sheelzebub at Pinko Feminist Hellcat. Get Tough.
But Markos stuck his foot into this one, and I think he ought to address this, and soon, like double quick, for I see the damage being done that I didn’t fully appreciate this morning.
Bloggers that should be united are not. And this isn’t so good.
Nothing was pulled down here.
then for some reason, it didn’t go up. I thought it was pulled.
Either way, this hoo-haa is hurting progressive blogging.
is when the highest traffic blog trivializes online sexual harassment. Kos could not have meant to say might makes right, but that is the logical conclusion of his remarks. It just encourages online bullies.
A voice has been silenced and lost to blogosphere because of this. Liberals should care.
As Moderate Left blog put it, women are the majority of Democratic voters, anyone who trivializes women’s issues is no friend of the Democratic party.
Kos shot himself in the foot. His fellow progressives are attempting, thus far with no success, to point that out and make clear the seriousness of the situation. Every hour this goes unanswered it becomes more serious.
Had Kos, within a few hours of the original post added an update along the lines of: I spoke before getting the facts, I don’t have time to write a proper post I just want to apologize to Sierra and what should be obvious, it is not acceptable to allow your online forum to be used for the purpose of threatening violence.
That would have been sufficient, the whole thing would have blown over. But for some reason He cannot be brought to understand that this is serious and his fellow high traffic bloggers (I hate the term A list) cannot understand that in absence of Kos doing the right thing they need to speak to this.
this whole issue is about solidarity. This is a time to show Sierra and other victims of online harassment some solidarity. “Just suck it up” is not a adequate response.
What do you propose then?
A blogger bill of ethics? How will you enforce it?
I can sympathize and support Kathy but I will be damned if I am going to scream that if we don’t fawn over her plight we are somehow sexist, for that is complete hogwash!
If you are aware of my signature statement at DK, you already know I am up to my neck in trying to stop the Iraq conflagration without resorting to histrionic rhetoric following the framing given us by Jeff Feldman. It takes up much of my time. This is the cross I am dragging, and it will be more than enough for my capabilities.
This whole affair is odious, typically republican/conservative and as Kos stated early, the work of a bullying coward. Kathy needs to use the law, and use her senses. Conservative stoops rely on a woman’s terror for success at exploitation whether in the workplace or in the political arena. For Kathy, 1st, GET A GRIP! Fear is the tool the bully uses to compell your submission! After that get friends, the cops and if that fails GET YOURSELF A GUN! AND A LAWYER, FOR NOW THE HARRASSMENT IS REALLY FELONY STALKING, and man oh man are there civil remedies you can get, Kathy will “pwn” this creep but good.
But I will not sit here and play “professional mourner” because this poor woman got a fright from some dirty con cretin coward!
I can’t speak for Kos, but I will speak for me, and I don’t think you know me well enough Alice, to imply I am insensitive or sexist about this affair. I am a working prole, and I use my hands for a living. Thus, I learned early that if you didn’t want to be a victim, you had damn well better fight when you must. It’s Kathy’s time to fight, and I will help if I can but blaming Kos for being non-plussed is counter-productive. Kos will speak when Kos gets ready, I can’t make him speak, and neither will you or Booman or anyone else.
But, let’s think about Kathy here, she seems to be getting lost in all the hoo-haw over Kos.
Laziness?
To me that post seemed just plain lazy like Markos got home late after a busy day and wanted to get off a quick one before he sat down to dinner and thought Wow, this is a no brainer….
However, I doubt he will apologize, since it might set a precedent.
Hope things are going well with you. Haven’t crossed paths with you in ages.
What I wrote to kos in the pie fight seems as relevant today as then:
Substitute ad for woman blogger and I can just recycle the same response.
And you were so upset with him, and so resolute in your stance as a feminist and father of potential victims that you continueud to contribute in not so small ways to the health of that fuck’s site for the year and a half since the Pie Ad.
What a fucking joke Carnacki
I don’t ever recall Carnacki writing a SYFPH diary…
Super, I post at Dkos too. Regrettably it seems to be the gateway site to reaching the most people in the progressive blogosphere. Where people choose to post is an individual decision which you are free to disagree with, but I’d ask you to please respect their choices, just as I respect the choices you feel were the right ones for you to make.
In any event, I hope all is well with you and your family. My wife is done with her chemo, and appears to be cancer free, if you can trust the blood tests. So that’s the good news from my family.
Steve
I’m glad to hear that all is well or better with your family Steve. I’m good too.
Double standards piss me off and frustrate the shit out of me and respect is earned, not freely given. You’ve earned my respect.
I love you Steve, and I love Carnacki too. I have read you both for years. But, I do understand where Super is coming from. You speak out against Kos, but you let the fame of posting there cloud your own ethics. So long as people like you continue posting and commenting there, then you are enabling his behavior. I know that you do not agree with him on this, but every diary you post, every comment you give, every click you give him enables him to continue his ways. You can write a hundred diaries against him, but the only real way to make him hear is to stop his hits, and that means not visiting his site. I got a load of grief for positing this idea before, but I stand by it. If every single person who was pissed at him for his latest blunder stopped visiting his site for a week or two, he would here you. Until then, you are just enabling him to continue to spew, because he knows it doesn’t matter what he says, you will always return.
I’ll take Steven at his word when he says that he only posts there because it’s the biggest vehicle around. The last thing I could see him seeking or losing perspective over is fame. But you’re right about the rest. Just like Madman is right about rewarding and enabling democrats who spit on us.
Well, you’ve given me a lot to think about. I don’t want top respond half-cocked, and I don’t want to offer up a lot of justifications that may seem self serving. Let’s say I’m thinking about what you wrote very seriously.
Thank you. I know it is a heck of a lot to ask. It’s easy for me to walk away from dKos…it’s not so easy for you. Thank you again for listening.
I’m all for boycotting DK. However, when Kos writes shit like that, how can you reach those over there if you don’t post there? I know that Steven’s post thee yesterday produced a lot of discussion among the kossaks.
Steven’s trying to build bridges and make something positive out of this experience. He’s also trying to teach others, including Kos himself.
Yup, Steven D is a good guy.
Unfortunately, there’s one flaw in his plan: the Markos Factor. From what I’ve seen of Kos, he’s not capable of the kind of self-reflection necessary to grow personally or politically. Steven D seems to disagree; I wish I had his faith in human nature.
The reason Mr. Moulitsas aka Kos is not going to change is because he won’t as long as the pageviews and advertising dollars keep coming. People pitching a fit, on or off his site, won’t work, because we have already been there and done that so many times I’ve lost count. We’ve had more sequels to the Misogyny Saga than “Rocky” pictures, for Chrissakes, and one thing never, ever changes: Kos.
Markos isn’t the only person at that site. As I posted elsewhere in that diary, the site should be called Daily42 or DailyDCDemocrat. There are many worthwhile diarists there to read besides kos.
I’ve also called kos on other things since then as well.
So go fuck your own joke supersoling.
I’m not talking about reading the few worthy diarists that are left at that site. I’m talking about actively contributing to the coopting of the left.
The joke is on you.
Actually you don’t know what you’re talking about. Where have I ever contributed “to the coopting of the left?”
I post there because I get more people to take action on my fight cancer diaries and opposition to torture diaries as well as contributions to candidates in WV-02, etc., than in all of the other sites I crosspost at combined.
So if you think I’m going to avoid posting at a site which has the most impact on the issues I find important, you’re wrong. What other purpose is there in blogging on important issues than to have the most impact you can with your posts?
If you want to “take a stand” and avoid the place, that’s putting your own emotions and ego ahead of the activism.
dear Super, you most certainly do have a warrior gene.
We’re all in the same fucking boat here, and we need to give each other a break.
He has a watb gene.
Can you guys take this to email please? I’d like to keep the focus on the topic at hand, not personal disagreements.
Thanks,
Steve
I don’t want any emails from a rude prick so don’t send supersoling’s emails my way. I won’t read them.
sorry carnacki. He’s acting like an idiot. He smelled meta and it lured him out of his self-imposed exile.
Out of respect for you Steven, this will be my last comment on this thread.
I have no interest in emailing Carnacki, principally because email removes it from sight. And aren’t you also frontpaging a personal disagreement with Kos? Where’s the difference between what you are saying and what I’m saying to someone who supports the site that front pages mysogeny? Kos wouldn’t be where he is today without the tacit support of those who make mild and weak protestations against his filth while simultaneously pretending that there is something worthwhile there to contribute to.
Good night
What a hypocrite it turns out you are.
Has a long history of solid, constructive diaries and comments over at that other site.
Your point is worthy of consideration, but your language makes it easy to dismiss. I don’t think Carnacki deserves what you dished out.
I suggest you do what Kos didn’t: apologize for the name calling and the language and restate your point. We’re more likely to take you seriously if you do, and we certainly would respect you for it.
just woke up from a nap and got some hint on another site that you were getting grief somewhere?
blksista has always been A+ list in my book, she’s a writer goddessdammit! way beyond blog commenter.
and fuck the concept of a-list blogs. the best writers hang with the independents.
as if that isn’t obvious.
Yeah, you are, but you have good reason to be. I used to be an active member of magick sites (like spiritual, but more proactive). I was pretty respected, but I was stalked and my life threatened often. I had a P.O. Box and a pseudonym, and I did everything to keep my RL identity secret.
The first time, the guy took pictures of my neighborhood and asked an acquaintance to point out my house. Thankfully, the acquaintance refused and let me know. This was after numerous death threats and rape threats. He threatened my newborn daughter. Then, he died of a complication of Hep C.
The next guy knew me and knew where I lived. He published my info and threatened to rape and kill me in front of my daughter at a gathering he knew I would be at. I was terrified, but I went to the gathering. I was not going to let him fuck my life up. He then died of a strong form of cancer.
I no longer participate in alternative religion sites. I make sure to never use any identifying info and I watch what I say. I don’t want to give in, but I also don’t want to experience that fear again. I am outspoken, but I am also rather nondescript.
Thank you Steven D. for speaking the truth, for putting a spotlight on what we (as women) do experience. Thank you for not shying away from what is a real problem, but one that has little sex appeal. Maybe in our next lives, I can have your babies! ;>)
The only positive thing to come out of the threats against Kathy Sierra, Don Imus’ firing, and now this bit with Kos is that it’s once again giving people an opportunity to share their stories, and for all of us to become more away of misogyny in this society.
Every time I think things can’t possibly get worse for women, I hear another story like yours, Kamkhya, and realise I was wrong.
The anonymity of the Net seems to encourage the worst behaviour in some people. Kamakhya, the fact that online harassment moved into your real life, to the point where you were physically stalked, proves that the threats made against Ms. Sierra were not empty ones (in fact, the police are treating the threats with the seriousness they deserve).
My position is that death threats shouldn’t be the price anybody, men or women, pay for speaking their minds. But then again, as a teacher, I’ve never been a big fan of the “thicken your skin” solution for dealing with bullies. That just excuses the bullying behaviour and ignores the right of the victim to never have been subjected to threats and intimidation in the first place.
I contacted the police in the first case, but they basically told me that until the guy actually killed me, I had no recourse. They agreed that I was in danger and recommended I hide. Gee thanks.
That is out choice here, be silent, be circumspect, be anonymous. If we refuse to be silent, then we are asking for it.
Not to hijack, but do you have a sense whether the response from the police was because you were female or because you were part of the magickal community? Or was it “we’re sympathetic but there’s not a damn thing we can actually DO”?
To be honest, I think they were sympathetic, but there really was nothing they could do. That is a major issue with spousal abuse too. The guy can threaten to kill you, but until he does, their hands are tied. At this point, the best you can hope for is a restraining order (which is impossible to get on an on-line stalker), which may or may not stop an attack. It’s bloody insanity. I don’t know whether its the laws that prevent the police from active, or the manpower.
It’s called “making a terroristic threat” and it’s a misdemeanor in California, at least. The law may have changed from the time of the events that you describe. You can do up to a year in jail for making a terroristic threat. Maybe that’s what we need to do with these guys.
A restraining order is a huge joke. I’ve known women who were attacked by exes while they had restraining orders issued against these guys. When my sister was a police officer, she said that getting a restraining order usually angered the men even more and goaded them into an attack.
Jesus, talk about a no-win situation.
your stories about how those two guys ended up make me a believer in Karma. Hope Markos and those on his side don’t learn their lesson the hard way, by something happening to them or someone they love…
I’m not surprised you caught on to that underlying theme. It is a premise of my life. If you treat people bad, then bad things happen. I chose to be kind and accept an apology and forgive when asked. Kos will never ask. But if he does, I will gladly forgive him.
I could be wrong about this, but I don’t think those others are going to publicly criticise Mr. Moulitsas for his ill-chosen words.
Moulitsas aka Kos will apologise for his latest tutorial in Misogyny 101 about the same time I win Miss California and knock ’em dead in the swimsuit competition.
I do appreciate what you’re trying to do, I just don’t think it’s going to happen.
The only way Moulitsas would apologise is if this latest action proves to be his Imus Moment and he begins to lose advertising dollars. That’s why I’m writing to his advertisers to share my concern that they are advertising on DailyKos, as Renee in Ohio suggested in her diary, “Blogging While Female”.
It may be that your route is far more productive, but my only objection appears to be that you wish to “rescue” DailyKos by giving Mr. Moulitsas some much-needed good advice (apologise and get this mess behind you).
However, I’ve no wish to “rescue” DailyKos, as Mr. Moulitsas has constructed it into a force for regressive (anti-progressive) politics. I would like to see the blogging community move away from DailyKos and find a new place to gather that genuinely is a “big tent” and that advocates not just for the Democratic Party, but for progressive politics in general.
StevenD, I’m going to be very honest with you: it doesn’t matter to me if Kos apologises. As with Don Imus, his insensitive commentary about the threats made against Kathy Sierra are just the straw that broke the camel’s back. Any apology that Kos made now, or will make in the future, will not be genuinely contrite nor result from honest self-reflection, but only from a desire to save his own sorry hide–in other words, public relations, not a change of heart.
I can afford to be this cynical about Mr. Moulitsas because I’ve seen how he reacted in the past. Did he ever truly apologise or attempt to make amends for anything he’s done or said in the past? What makes you think he will do so for this incident, and what makes you think he will be sincere?
Hey StevenD-
Where are you going with this, if no apology is forthcoming? Because B.C. here is effectively calling for a boycott of Kos, premised on the, uh, ideosyncratic idea that Kos’s politics are anti-progressive. Is that your intended goal, too? I think it would be really stupid and unfortunate if it were.
What if he DOESN’T apologise? I called for a boycott of Imus’ advertisers, which turns out to be unnecessary, as Imus got the sack.
Apologise or else ______?
I don’t agree, obviously, that my idea that Kos is anti-progressive is “idiosyncratic”, Mithras, but I don’t want to hijack StevenD’s diary with THAT issue.
A plan?
I don’t think that far ahead. This is just a spontaneous expression of outrage. I’m lousy with making plans. Just ask my wife. This is just winging it. Hell if I know where I’m going.
You know, if the A-list people you addressed this to don’t respond the “right” way, it will be used by the right as evidence that liberals are mysognistic. I don’t see this as helpful. They’ll even point to any delay in responding as proof of it. Did you email the letter to the people you address it to above?
No, but I will.
Thanks for prodding me to do that.
Y’know, Mithras, in the quarter-century I’ve been following politics, I haven’t noticed that it particularly MATTERS whether leftists, or progressives, or other rational beings say or don’t say ANYTHING – the right will twist it into evidence of anything they damn well please, without regard to ethics, accuracy, legitimacy, facts, or anything else except what they want their people to believe. And if there’s nothing to work with, they’re even happier making shit up and putting in the mouths of people who didn’t speak.
That being the case, why should any of us give a rodenheiny WHAT they’re likely to decide to do with comments? We have no possible influence on it, in any case. RightWing bloviations have no relevance to reality in any circumstance; they’re a mix of mob incitement and marching orders.
Speculating about what they might do is kind of an entertaining parlor game if you’re drunk enough and have nothing better to do, but otherwise it’s a waste of energy.
Number one, Kos is now a political football. This isn’t like even a run-of-the-mill prominent blogger like Amanda Marcotte; it’s the site that is regularly cited as a center for liberal politics. If a boycott takes off it hurts not just Kos the person but Daily Kos the site, which is an own goal for the progressive cause. The idea that things like this are irrelevant to the purposes of the right is just incorrect.
Second, I am all in favor of criticizing people you disagree with. However, it’s just smart to think things through. What’s my objective? What are people likely to do? Who is watching?
Open letters are now being routinely used to voice criticism without ever having the decency to send the target a copy. This puts people in the position of looking like they don’t care when they may just not know about it. It’s bad form. It’s also really stupid if you want the addressee to, you know, do something.
First, Kos MADE himself a political football, so he doesn’t get a bit of sympathy or support (or benefit of the doubt) because of that…. and I daresay that having a rightist-run site with a distinctly hierarchal right-wing bent cited as the “center for liberal politics” is of great use — to the right.
Kos is about as liberal/progressive/left as Genghis Khan, and most of his bullyboys would fit nicely into the horde without much orientation about manners. The man has openly stated, repeatedly, that he’s NOT a progressive, that he’s NOT concerned with political issues of concern to liberals or progressives, that his SOLE INTEREST in running DK is for the political clout it gives him. Left, right, Libertarian, Fascist – he doesn’t care. He’s after power and control, and never mind what it takes to get it.
To the left, it’d frankly be a VAST improvement to have a leftist cited as the leftist center/objective point, and a boycott of DK by everyone to the left of, say, Goldwater, would probably make that a damn sight more likely.
I know as an unrepentant moderate-center-leftist (which to a couple of R’s I still have no choice but to associate with makes me a raving Stalinist) I cringe when my colleagues cite Kos as “what the left is thinking” — If you want to know what the left is thinking, why ask Kos?
But that’s typical rightwing media stuff – Pat Robertson and his ilk are usually cited as experts on all religious faiths, when they don’t know dick about the one they claim to practice, much less any of the others.
Now I agree about thinking things through – but there’s also a point where you have to accept that there will be a number of people who will take mortal offense at your mere existence, without any slightest regard to what you write or say, simply because they have to respond that way in order to meet their own needs. If you’re to the left of, again, perhaps Goldwater, you offend them beyond their tolerance simply by waking up in the morning still breathing. If you’re alive, they’re going to hate you, and they’re going to attack you with anything you say, or anything you don’t say, or anything they wish you had said, or anything they find it convenient for you to agree with. Who you are or what you believe has less than nothing to do with it.
If you let that worry you, you’ll never be able to do anything at all — which is exactly what they’re aiming for. Pre-emptive intimidation or a pre-conditioned audience is SO much more effective than a straight-out on-the-issues discussion.
Personally, I suspect that posting an open letter on the front page at BT is just about as effective a way of getting the message to the parties in interest as anything else would be; I feel sure that the a-listers in question (or their staffs or associates) google themselves on a fairly regular (as in daily if not more often) basis, just to keep up with what’s being said about them. Wouldn’t you, if you were in that position?
Making it a public statement / open letter probably draws a lot MORE of their attention than sending it privately, because the recipients know there will be a great many more eyeballs seeing it. Private communications can always be ignored or denied or “caught in a spam-filter,” public statements don’t leave the recipient that option. I agree that it should be sent directly as well… but Open Letters are an effective device with a very long and distinguished history. One could argue convincingly that the US Declaration of Independence is a pretty strong example. It wasn’t headed “Dear George III,” but it might as well have been; it was intended that way and, on the evidence, was taken as such.
They all got this message:
I carry no brief for Kos. But obnoxious as he can be, he’s built a site where hundreds of thousands of Democratic activists converge. That’s valuable. Okay, you hate his guts. I get that. But the idea that destroying DK by boycott will make it more likely that someone you consider authentically left will become more prominent is crazy.
And by referring to the uses the Right would put such a boycott I am not advocating doing nothing. I am advocating thinking about the atmosphere in which one does things, and taking steps to minimize the possibility that your words will be used for the wrong purposes. (Just as Kos should have done.)
As I said, it’s just smart to do things the right way. The way I see it, an open letter should be sent to the recipient well in advance of posting it in an open forum. It’s just polite, and it enables the addressee to compose a reply in a timely manner, which is good if you want to initiate a dialog.
I feel sure that the a-listers in question (or their staffs or associates) google themselves on a fairly regular (as in daily if not more often) basis, just to keep up with what’s being said about them.
Staff? Okay, I think maybe there is a perception that A-list bloggers make a ton of money, and that is driving some resentment here.
I don’t know what others may do, but I know Duncan Black because he lives near me. The guy sits in front of tivo and the computer all day. His staff is his cats. He has a day job with media matters because, you know, health insurance.
Point is, a-list, b-list or z-list, they’re people. Treat them that way.
I think we’re talking past each other.
I don’t hate Kos, personally. Never met him, never interviewed or even spoken to him, not likely to, politics not being my personal beat. But I know the MSM (inside out view), and they are, in few words, swamped, overworked, not particularly gifted, underpaid, and not able (sometimes not willing) to do much actual research on a lot of stories. (Some are also rather on the “as little work as possible” side.) DK sucks all the oxygen out of the room when the MSM folks go looking for a ‘grassroots left’ perspective; there ain’t nobody else even CLOSE to on the radar screen.
And when they need a personal spokesman for the site, they’re going to go to the Eponym. (It helps, from personal experience it helps TREMENDOUSLY that he wants to put himself forward as a spokesman. A lot less time and effort finding someone who wants to be found.)
Which means, just naturally, that the leading voice for the grassroots political left in the US is a Reaganite Republican with no progressive leanings, whose only political ideology is that he wants to win elections and that he wants to be personally credited for those wins.
And THAT does bother me, the same way letting Pat Robertson define Islam or Phyllis Schlafly define feminism bothers me. (or, for that matter, having Al Sharpton define white supremacism, or Farrakhan describe race harmony or tolerance).
So long as DK continues to exist as a huge “Pan Democrat” site, that will continue to be the case. Our outside-the-blogosphere “spokesman” will continue be a man who is openly contemptuous of everything we’re trying to do. Think that might have a few real-world repercussions?
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I’ve also concluded, over the years, that the atmosphere one takes into account MUST include the reality that worrying about the uses to which the right may put anything you do is totally pointless, because it does not matter what you do or don’t do; they’re not concerned in the least with reality. Their followers aren’t going to look at facts, and they know and trade on that. I find myself, as cynical as I’ve become, somewhat less charitable (and perhaps less open-minded) than I should be when the “Right Reaction” is raised as a consideration in a serious left/progressive strategic or tactical discussion.
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Obviously, I don’t know what Atrios’ arrangements are; if he’s got time to sit in front of the Tivo he’s more time than I have, for certain. And I’d still be surprised if he doesn’t google himself regularly. I’d bet Arianna has staff, and she’s the one I was primarily thinking about since she’s got rather a lot of reach herself and a bit less of the “Hub of the Left” echo. Wouldn’t bother me a lot if she did start to pick up some of Kos’ MSM attention. Not that she will, mind; some of her posters are actual progressives.
BTW, If you want to think it’s about the money, be my guest. You’ll be wrong, but be my guest. The economics of blogging are almost certainly even worse than the economics of freelance journalism (my gig) and I know how much MY economic situation sucks.
(Plus if you want to run a blog that actually pays you have to sell advertising, and that means you have to deal with people who buy it and place it, and if you think I’m being hard on Kos you do not want to even THINK about how I regard advertising people as a class. Let’s just say I have a use for Gitmo when the Bushies are through with it. ;> )
We’ll have to agree to disagree on the question of whether open letters are appropriate starting points for a discussion. I see your point, but I don’t agree with it. That may have something to do with me NOT being actively involved in running a blog where things scroll offscreen and out of mind in a day or two.
“Dialogs” in my world are frequently NOT instantaneous; I commonly hear (good or bad) about things that happened weeks or months before, and frequently have to chase back into my offline archives to find out just what exactly it was that I said/did/wrote/published in order to reply with whatever degree of intelligence I have available.
union organization rights, progressive taxation, and ending the war in Iraq is a “right-wing bent” the left is never going to control anything in American and you may as well give up. Dkos is full of people who wish to define acceptable political discourse in such a way as to exclude every Democratic Senator (e.g. can’t have voted for the Patriot Act and can’t have voted to confirm Gonzalez – that gets them all). I know, because I’m often arguing with them. How on earth can anybody call that a “right-wing bent”? I can’t think of any country anywhere where the views there are “right wing”, never mind in America. In liberal West European states, you would call it “centrist”, but this isn’t Sweden.
Yeah. One thing Kos doesn’t do is apologize (much like the chimpenator too). He is simply incapable of saying “I was wrong”. He hems and haws and blames anything else he can in a classic politico fashion.
The only hope is that progressives will move away from his site, but by and large, they just say, “Well, I only read the diaries” or “Change comes from the inside” or “he was just ignorant” and they still link to him, even though he doesn’t link back, because with kos comes numbers.
I bet you and Booman and Terrance and the other guy who I love so much, but can’t remember his name (gack), will still keep posting there because more people will read you there than anywhere else. Kos has the numbers and no matter what he says, people will continue to flock to his site and post all their stuff because that is where they can scream the loudest. Ethics be damned. Maybe more people will be influenced with my post than Kos’, so it is ok.
I still love y’all, though I wish I didn’t see so many “cross-posted at dkos” tags. He isn’t worthy of your prose.
clammyc, Kamakhya — I’ve had a really bad case of CRSS (Can’t Remember Shit Syndrome) lately around here.
And maybe Markos isn’t worthy of Steven and Clammy and Terrence, but there are a few people over there that I still hold out hope for…and they’re the ones I go for, not Markos (I rarely even click on a front page story, so I missed MM’s comments on the Kathy Sierra affair).
Hope you and the kid are hanging in there… 🙂
Yes Clammyc is the one. I have to admit, that I pop over one a week or so too. :>) I never log on, and I get out as quick as possible. There are great bloggers there, I just wish that they would recognize that BoomanTribune or MLW are worthy of their posts too. I am much more likely to read their post here since I read everything here. They don’t need to post on a mysogynist site…many people read the smaller blogs and a few well placed diaries will hit all of DKos readers.
Is it just me, or has the whole b-list blogosphere gone concern troll?
I guess you don’t consider the issue of violence and abuse against women an important issue. In that you apparently share the sentiments of Markos.
Well, for me, it is a big issue. I’ve had loved ones raped, beaten, verbally abused and threatened by misogynistic Neanderthals. I have an 11 year old daughter who I would prefer to never have to experience such things in her life. Speaking out against those who are dismissive of the very real danger faced by women, and the fear caused by the levels of verbal and sexual harassment against women in our society, is not a hobby of mine, or a “cause” or conduct equivalent to whatever you imagine a “concern troll” exhibits. It’s an obligation and a necessity.
Our daughters are the same age, Steven. I didn’t know that.
I’ve thought about mine a lot in the context of this discussion.
Wonderful age, isn’t it?
My daughter is starting to get the whistles and comments and is worried that she will never find a boyfriend. You guys are in for some really fun times! :>)
There are three 11-12 year old boys in our neighborhood who are always over here asking if she can come out and play. It’s definitely starting earlier these days.
LOL…my daughter will be 13 next month. She is the only girl that is invited to all the boys’ birthday parties. She’s a tom boy and a geek, and has always gotten along better with boys, but none will admit to liking, liking her. 🙂 So, if all the guys in the hood are asking for her, it may be that she is considered the one safe girl to like, ’cause she’s cool, not because she’s hot (even if she is). ;>) She’ll hate that, but it sure is music to a parent’s ear!
really?! do tell…ims, dKos invented it…
thanks for stopping by and sharing the new spin w/ us b-list peons
you may now return to your regularly scheduled programming
have fun
It’s just you.
is it just me, or has the whole b-list blogosphere gone concern troll?
it’s just you.
Hey! That’s MY line. ;>
But then you’re at least a b-list blogger (I don’t follow these things at all, understand) and I’m not even ON the list, so I can take mine down if you prefer….
I thought I was the ultimate optimist.
Thanks for all your efforts. I will be enormously surprised if they have any affect on kos or his blind-buddy supporters. He has made his position concerning women and women’s issues abundantly clear over the past 4 1/2 years I have been aware of him and his blog. Repeatedly.
Women’s issues (you know the list) have no place in his Libertarian politics. He is not really a Democrat and he has made it very clear that he is a Libertarian but only sees any hope of getting rid of the current crop of criminals in government to support Democrats. . .the more right of center “moderate” the better.
I have no idea what colors his amazingly ignorant stance and intolerance towards women and their issues, but it is pretty deeply ingrained.
So thanks again for your efforts. Good Luck
He is also not “an apologizin’ kinda guy.
He will NOT apologize regardless of who calls him on it.
Yep Shirl…just what I was thinking! Great minds and all that! The man will not apologize, and even if he thinks about it, he will not understand what we are saying. It’s hopeless. But it does send a message to the blogosphere that you do not condone such behavior and are willing to say so. That is worth a thousand kudos.
the advertising and money control that all the big boys argued did not mean they were tied to Kos (and Armstrong)? The deathening silence.
Principles should some before everything. Sadly it seems some weird and totally wrong notion of political expediency or linked commercial interests seem to override anything caled principle. Is it OK to criticize Imus but not OK to criticize Kos when both display anti-women sentiments?
thanks for that blog list, Stephen. Some of those posts are powerful. Kos is now in the good ole boys club.
For you words, your energy, and your attention.
Back in the old days (aka the “sixties”) we knew triangulation by its true name: Selling Out.
Hey: A-list bloggers! You have got to quit doing this! Selling out just gets you bought! Yeah, you can sip cognac on the French Riviera–and watch everything meaningful in your life slide into oblivion!
There is a better way.
we used here….same difference.
Good stuff. While I do think Markos probably intended to speak more to the idiotic crap about having a code of ethics for bloggers, the rest of his post was a big mistake. It’s good to see many other bloggers calling him out on it…whether it brings forth another explanation is unlikely, though. Kos hasn’t been known to be apologetic for anything he writes – while it can be a strength, it is also a weakness (see the current White House occupant).
As a sidebar, why no mention of MyDD?
Have they posted on Kos and Sierra?
Probably not; they don’t really delve into other meta issues within the liberal blogosphere. However, I have no idea if the other bloggers you did email have (from what I can recall, I don’t remember Atrios putting anything up), and I would argue that MyDD is in the ‘A-list’ despite its lower traffic figures, largely because it is the place to be for serious political/electoral analysis in the blogosphere.
that whole scene is about to blow…they don’t need this scandal.
Well, the only reason MyDD might face problems is if the Edwards/Obama flame wars continue to heat up over there. Otherwise, I’m not quite sure what you may be referencing…
Stay tuned.
Okay, then. We’ll see…
I guess that for kossacks themselves to make such criticism it would be like saying that the emporer has no clothes. Hopefully those A-listers will fill that vacuum. But you’ve been admirably persistent, Steven. Thanks from this Q-list blogger.
Where the hell do you get off calling Kos misogynistic? That is total crap!
He has nothing to apologize for IMHO.
Snark or troll?
Pretty trollish, in my oponion.
3376 z z z z US 2006-04-27 13:38:59
Yet this is his/her first post?
There are 3 more in the archive.
Yep. 2 back when he/she signed up, and 1 a year later. Not a very active member, I guess.
it’s obvious you haven’t been paying attention.
after crawling from my sick bed to the computer. I’m still reeling. Of course that could still be the sinus infection. Not sure. Anyhoo, I don’t think there is any shaming Markos into acknowledging how wrong-headed his post was. Not if the pie war is any indication. He just won’t be bullied by the “sanctimonious women’s studies set.” I have taken the matter up, as well, on my decidedly Z-list blog. It’s the rest of the blogosphere that needs to wake up to the fact that Markos is not a voice for the left.
Markos needs to get his ass online and fix what he did. End of story.
it is important to all of us that Daily Kos continue to be a success. IF it starts to go down it will damage the whole of lefty blogosphere. It is also important that Yearly Kos be a success. Lots of reporters will be there, an unsuccessful Yearly Kos will reflect on all of us.
That is why it is so important that Kos do the right thing and the rest of them call him on it if they don’t.
Continued silence will give the bully boys “permission” to harrass women online. This is important because it has real consequences for real people. Kos dissed a crime victim. They can’t go after Imus and George Allen and remain silent about this.