cross-posted at skippy and a veritable cornucopia of other community blogs.
big tent armando needs to attend some 12 step meetings…and not because we think he’s addicted to anything (at least, other than his own writings, but if that were a crime, let us be guilty).
no, we think big tent armando needs to attend a few 12 step meetings learn the meaning of the word enabler. because then he might not be so quick to defend markos as “merely clueless” rather than outright “misogynistic.”
on talkleft, earlier this week, big tent armando wrote
markos wrote a post that is poorly put together and that wrongly ignored the underyling sexism and misogyny issues. but for jessica to equate that with misogyny is really beyond the pale.
markos has made a number of mistakes, imo, on gender issues. indeed, i have had many a dispute with him over them. but to label him a misogynist is completely over the top and wrong. frankly, it cheapens the issue. bad show jessica.
of course, big tent armando is referring to jessica of feministing writing over at tpmcafe about markos’ view that kathy sierra is a big crybaby because she doesn’t want to be raped and killed for blogging.
= = more = =
big tent armando also goes on to defend and clarify (if, by “clarify,” we mean “obfuscate”) his position in the comments there on talkleft and also on various other blogs around blogtopia and yes, we coined that phrase.
now, please rest assured, that we love armando and his writings. he has been nothing but kind to us except for when he’s been a prick, but then, that’s the joy that is armando.
however, in this case, he is making the same mistake that most humans with penises between their legs make in their approach to active misogyny, and that is that, as eldridge cleaver said about rascism, if you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem.
sorry, bta, but being clueless about misogyny, especially in the 21st century america, is not a valid, or even believable, excuse. to say, “hey, the guy wasn’t the one who punched the broad in the face, he was just watching,” is not a defense that will hold up under scrutiny.
armando would have us believe that markos does not hate women. replace the concept of women with the concept of black people in that world view, and you get the old canard, “some of my best friends are negros.”
just as there is such a thing as lying by omission, there is such a thing as bigoty by inaction. and in something as horrific as a woman getting photoshop-quality graphic death and rape threats anonymously, such firmly-stated inaction can be legitimately viewed by some (read: human beings with vaginas) as beyond the pale.
you don’t have to lynch negros to be a racist, you just have to sit by as institutionalized racism destroys entire communities.
and you don’t have to rape to be a misogynist, you can just as easily poo-poo someone’s legitimate fears of rape.
and, armando, we are afraid, is getting very close to the republican-technicalities defense (“bush never actually said there were wmd’s in iraq in any of his speeches!”) when he parses the line between hating women and not caring if women are hated.
being clueless is no defense. or was that “ignorance”?
meanwhile, over at booman, steven d covers markos’s non-apology response to the whole fiasco en toto (and dorothy, too) and bob x guesses kos never heard of alan berg.
and i’m a mojo-holic.
And here I am contributing to your addicition.
😉
I’d give you a 4 but I don’t want to be an enabler.
both armando and i have apologized to each other over at my left wing for our hyperbolic flames on this diary here and at mlw.
for the record, i am sorry to use the “enabler” metaphor that upset armando so much. i’m a big fan of his work.
This is a case of woman turning something a male said into something a male DIDN’T say.
Men get in trouble for this ALL THE TIME WITH WOMEN.
Women take everything personally. Heck, sometimes I can’t wash the dishes in my house without my wife taking it personally. She’ll say “you don’t have to wash the dishes. You know I WAS going to do them. I KNOW the kitchen is a mess. I KNOW I’ve been bad about them.” and on and on and on. And I just tell her “I’m just WASHING DISHES. It doesn’t MEAN anything. It doesn’t mean I disapprove of how you’ve been taking care of the kitchen, it doesn’t mean I’m trying to make a statement about how there are “too many dirty dishes” and in fact, if you want to say anything, how about “hey, thanks for washing some of those damn dishes that YOU dirtied.”
This strikes me as one of those cases. Kos made a statement, the kind of statement any guy would make to OTHER GUYS, and the women are all blowing their stacks and screaming “misogynist!”
If you want to play with men, and be treated equally, then you’ve gotta UNDERSTAND how men talk to each other. This is why men often don’t WANT to work with women, because we want to be able to say what we think without having to explain it twenty thousand times over inadverently hurt feelings.
The bottom line is that if you don’t want to be threatened for what you write online, then don’t write online. It comes with the territory. If you write stuff in public, people who can be anonymous are going to come after you with verbal attacks.
It’s happened to me and it’s gonna happen as long as people can ANONYMOUSLY post messages.
If you want it to change, get rid of the anonymity of the net. Nothing else will change it. Until then, get used to it.
If it keeps you up nights, maybe you shouldn’t do it.
being treated equally does not mean being treated like a man.
it means all human beings being treated like human beings.
kos did not say what he said “to other guys.”
he said it as a commentary to the world in general.
he implied that kathy sierra made up her death threats, death threats that are so serious the police are investigating this.
i say that the dismisaal of such contributes to an air of misogyny, even if kos himself did not actively send death threats to ms. sierra.
i stand by my metaphor: as far as misogyny goes in cases of violent threats, if you ain’t a part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
that’s not a clever retort. it’s an analysis of how misogyny (or racism, or other institutionalized bigotry) can survive for years and years even while those discriminated against actively work to dismantle it.
but kos did not even make a distinction about Ms. Sierra’s gender.
He treated her complaint and her idea the way he would treat anyone’s.
And tell me why a threat to a woman is worse than a threat to a man?
I’ve had death threats. Should they be taken less seriously because I sport a cock?
Of course threats are not to be tolerated by any gender. And they should be taken seriously. NO threat should be just pitched out without some consideration about how valid it is or isn’t. (We have just had a horrible example of a shooter gone completely apeshit. If there had been threats and if they had been acted upon, one could hope this tragedy could have been avoided. NEVER assume that a threat is empty.)
First of all, how many death threats, rape threats, cutting out your innards threats have you gotten in your life? Kathy was a TECH blogger, for cripes sake, she wasn’t even twigging with pols! But her audience probably is predominantly male, nonetheless. Now I have been very fortunate in my life and I have received zippo threats unless you count the drug shoot out on the lawn next door! But I can appreciate that a pretty woman can attract people and some of those people are not nice at all! Not having been pretty has been a blessing for me in that sense! She wasn’t expecting those kinds of threats – hangings, cutting, etc. Why must she be expected to expect them? Why do women have to continually carry that big can around with them of “because they aren’t male they have to expect all kinds of shit and clean it up as well?” Why, for that matter, couldn’t we have a society where a woman could walk down the street naked and not be raped? As it is, a woman doesn’t even have to do that much to curry rape threats. And, of course, she is told SHE IS THE PROBLEM! And, of course, if she complains SHE IS THE PROBLEM!!!
Well fuck that noise! I have seen more uptight so-called family values folks be meaner than shit! I have seen more so-called Christian folks be meaner than shit! Some woman that blogs on a tech support site just couldn’t compete with them and yet SHE IS THE ONE TO GET THE THREATS! SHE IS THE PROBLEM? Dang – we so called rational libruls are not that blinking scary and we would consider doing threats like that MEAN and DEMEANING TO OURSELVES!!! But we sit back and EXPECT demeaning actions from people and we EXPECT to hear them screaming at it if they disagree and we expect that a confrontation will not be rational. Those expectations are enabling in themselves!
Sorry for the irrational attempt at a rational discussion. Markos has not really understood what it means to be female. But now that he has a daughter, he will get a whole new perspective in a few years.
If you want to play with men, and be treated equally, then you’ve gotta UNDERSTAND how men talk to each other. This is why men often don’t WANT to work with women, because we want to be able to say what we think without having to explain it twenty thousand times over inadverently hurt feelings.
Well we certainly wouldn’t want guys to do anything they don’t want to do.
But you did lay out a good case for the patriarchy. All women need to do to get along is play by men’s rules.
just quit thinking that everything is about YOU.
And quit taking everything so personally.
I love you guys. Nordic, you did more to prove the point of the situation of putting women down than all the comments so far on this issue.
Do it MY way or you don’t get to play. Dear, that is what we have been battling for over 6,000 years. And I know you don’t understand it and I know kos doesn’t and lots and lots of men don’t. See. . . that is the problem. When you marginalize women it is not the same as when you marginalize privileged white men.
It’s the same stuff with the good ole boy network that is so incensed with the firing of Imus. It has nothing to do with free speech. Heck you guys, many of you talk that way all the time in the “locker room.” What the heck is the problem? Women are just too thin skinned. They make up problems where there are none. If they want to play with the “big boys” then they better grow a thicker hide.
It is all about playing by your rules, the Male set of rules. And as superior as you think those rules are, they are sorely lacking in many areas.
Sorry that it is so upsetting for you to be questioned, you meaning men in general. Try being questioned, marginalized, demeaned, ignored, the butt of every sexualized locker room joke day in and day out for your entire life.
Yep, we women folk are a bunch of cry babies. And we sure do pick on you guys all the time. Maybe YOU need to grow a thicker skin/
Just my insignificant opinions, worth every penny you paid for them
we’re supposed to change, but not you.
We’re supposed to turn into women, so women can stay the same and not have their feelings hurt?
Not gonna happen.
Listen, the deal is that a lot of times no matter what you say, it’s the wrong thing. That’s why men don’t talk to women about “their feelings” because when we do we get in SERIOUS trouble for it.
And if you want to talk equality, why is a threat to a woman WORSE than a threat made to a man?
It’s not.
A threat is a threat.
Just because a woman is on the receiving end of it does NOT make the threat more serious.
That’s what I’m trying to say here, is that women want a double standard as far as this goes, and Kos (and Armando) called them on this. And that pisses off people like yourself.
Men and women are different. Get used to it.
And as far as treating women badly? Nobody treats women as badly as OTHER WOMEN DO. Women are constantly at each other’s throats. That’s why they don’t run the world, which they could SO EASILY do if they get decided to get along.
And you were able to stay on ALL of the talking points!
Very good.
I’m the enemy. I have a dick. It makes me a monster.
wow…
there a lot of women around here that would be willing to explain what they think if you were willing to listen. But you’re giving some lecture on why women are flawed creatures unable to run the world. That’s not listening…
you can call it “not listening”
Or you can call it “I’ve heard it all before. Already. Over and over again”.
Nobody has yet been able to tell me why a threat against a woman is worse than a threat against a man.
it’s been a long day and I guess my patience is a little frayed.
So I will count to 10.
……….
Okay.
Um…
Oh fuck…
I need to count to ten again.
……….
Okay…
Um…
If a 12 year old 83 pound snot-nosed kid tells me he is going to kick my ass…?
I think it is kinda cute in a snotty kind of way.
If a 25 year old man that outweighs me by 40 lbs tells me he is going to kick my ass…?
It makes me worried.
Shall I go on?
it just makes you someone with a funny looking “appendage” that has been treated with the seriousness of god.
Okay, one thing you need to pick up on is the difference between “having” and “being.”
If you actually bothered to READ the threads you post in you’d see that a fair number of the participants share the same general anatomical configuration you do, and we’re not monsters, nor are we treated as monsters. (It’s probably a safe bet that we’re not, in general, regarded as monsters, either…. though I guess if you start with the point that all women are lying @#$#! you could easily assume that we’re just not able to see through them the way you do. Good luck with that one.)
Tell Kos you gave it your best shot but just couldn’t get anywhere. He’ll understand; he’s not having any luck either.
Kos pisses me the hell off sometimes, too. So what? I don’t accuse him of picking on me personally and write endless diaries all over the blogosphere about what an asshole he is.
I just chalk it up to disagreements, and the fact that he can get the last word in because Dailykos is his blog, and leave it at that. It’s called moving on.
Has kos yet told you that your issues, whatever they may be, are not important and further the fact that you are concerned about them makes you a “single issue voter” (not that that is actually true because you are an all issues voter), and that he doesn’t want “single issue voters” on his site and they should not attempt to bring their issues to the attention of Democrats running for office? And has he for the last 3 and 1/2 years in your awareness repeatedly maintained these views? And has he told you that you are so absolutely without merit that he would hope the door doesn’t hit you in the ass on the way out?
Well, those are the things he has said to women on his site. All women who have a differing opinion from his. Makes it a little tough to just say no big deal, just his opinion, I need to just go along and get along. . . ignore it.
It is no wonder that somewhere in the neighborhood of 1200 active, strong voices, women’s voices, left the site in 2005 re: the resulting commentary on the Pie Wars.
A few of the good women writers did stay on. But many, many of them left. His site. No biggy. Just saying that some of the strong feelings his latest “forgivable cluelessness” brought up is due to a long standing and continuous disdain for women and the things that are equally important to them as all the other issues.
If you actually read through some of the excellent diaries and comments that resulted, there was a lot of truly insightful and well stated information by both men and women on both sides of the issue. The best of them did not dissolve into blaming and name calling. People were actually attempting to understand each other.
Your reactions and obvious anger about this topic seems to suggest that you did not read and understand the many views there. That’s unfortunate because there was truly some great dialog going on.
I am not angry with you and I do not hate you nor view you as a monster. I feel you are not informed very well because you appear to be quite reactionary to the topic at all. That you have “heard it all before” sounds like you didn’t care for what you heard and so therefore you will not look at the validity of any point of view that is not yours. Just saying it looks that way. It may not at all be what you are wanting to communicate.
So you and I just happen to disagree on this issue.
Take care
And as far as treating women badly? Nobody treats women as badly as OTHER WOMEN DO. Women are constantly at each other’s throats. That’s why they don’t run the world, which they could SO EASILY do if they get decided to get along.
Riiight – I’ve lost count of the number of times women have raped and murdered other women because it happens so frequently.
This is so much paternalistic crap.
When I read the comment about your wife and your interactions with her, I thought you were joking. I mean it would be funny if it was a take off on some guy making sexist and demeaning comments about his own wife on a public forum!
Shew. (Marriage counseling, anyone?)
It’s just so easy to insult people and then point the finger at them for “taking it personally.” It’s like kicking someone in the head and then calling them a wimp for saying “ouch.”
The bottom line is that “sporting a cock” has nothing to do with whether or not a person is inclined to take things personally. With all due respect, that is just a totally MISOGYNISTIC attitude! I don’t know what planet you live on, but — here on planet earth — men are just as likely to take things personally as women.
Sure it’s best if people DON’T take things personally. There’s a lot about this in a wonderful little book called “The Four Agreements.” (For women only! LOL!)
What were the other three? I forget. (It’s like trying to remember the seven dwarves!)
Oh, now I remember….
Don’t make assumptions.
Don’t take things personally.
Be impeccable with your word.
Always try to do your best, but forgive yourself (with understanding) when you fail.
I took it the same way you did – as a sarcastic rant making fun of Kos, ’til I actually read it closely … and figured out that he meant it.
“If you want to play with white people, and be treated equally, then you’ve gotta UNDERSTAND how white people talk to each other. This is why white people often don’t WANT to work with minorities, because we want to be able to say what we think without having to explain it twenty thousand times over inadverently hurt feelings.”
I’d suggest also that Markos needs to grow up, sometimes an extended process for men. I say this with no malice, my own experience has been to learn more about the needs of others only with the accruing of life experiences.
served you (and us by extension) very well. I applaud you in your growth!!!!!
is his fierce defense of his friends. It’s probably has something to do with why some people like him and maybe is something that makes him a good attny.
I have no trouble seeing that clearly, and I’m not saying he doesn’t go over the top (to say the least) at times, but knowing that makes him quite intelligible to me.
Fiercely defensive of his friends, right and wrong be damned…. where ELSE have we seen that become a completely divisive and thoroughly nasty proposition that hurts a whole LOT more than it helps?
One of the best things my friends ever do for me is tell me when I’m about to say something really stupid, and one of the smartest things I’ve ever done is learn to listen to them when they tell me (which happens more often than I’d really like to admit).
I can’t speak for anyone else here but I’ve always found that the people who can’t or won’t admit even the most obvious errors make very poor friends, and those who won’t call them on it are much worse ones. I get those people out of my life as quickly as possible. They’re destructive.
Notice my choice of words in describing it. By going too far, what is a virtue turns destructive.
So if Jessica were to say that she does not think Markos is a misogynist, would she be an enabler of misogynists?
Better yet, is EVERYONE, why Skippy singles me out for this treatment is not explained, who thinks that Markos is NOT A MISOGYNIST (boy there is blind defense for you, NOT a MISOGYNIST, talk about faint praise) an enabler of misogynists?
Make the fucking list Skippy? Tell me who called Markos a misogynist and who did not.
People have their lists of condemnations of Markis – HOW MANY on that list called Markos a misopgynist? Are the ones that did not enablers of misogynists too?
Does anyone think around here is it TOTALLY HATE Markos or or you are evil around here?
Booman complains about the reputation fo BMT as a Kos hating site. IS it any wonder that reputation exists?
Good to see you are still around stirring the pot. ;o)
One thing I can say for sure is that you were extremely supportive to us poor women folk during the pie wars, and I thought you did an exceptional job of attempting to calm things down. Sort of a new role for you. . .just kidding. ;o)
I don’t know who or if anyone here hates Markos. I don’t. I just don’t mind speaking my peace if I happen to disagree with him. Just my opinion, but I think Markos is the least relevant thing over at big orange.
It’s hard being the “big blogger guy”, everyone wants to tell you what they think. But sometimes, such as this, he just makes himself such an easy target.
Lots of folks here and on other blogs still visit the big orange, there is plenty of good stuff to read. So I wouldn’t think we could characterize them as Markos Haters.
Guess they will have to speak for themselves.
Good to see you again (been a couple of years since our last encounter).
sorry I misspelled your name ARMANDO. It’s late, my fingers seem to have a mind of their own.
Well, this diary which is a baseless smear of me is at the top of recommends. Either it is atred of me or hatred of Kos.
I waqshoping Kos not me.But I guess it could be me.
if you want the spotlight you have to accept that people may write about your opinions.
While Skippy clearly disagrees with your position, this can hardly be described as a smear or as hatred. Are you sure you have skin thick enough for blogging if this sets you off?
Same old BS is right.
Discussing my opinions is great.
Calling me an enabler is BS.
You picked your side apparently.
was deleted here at BMT–and yes, my diary at dk on pie day 1, deleted by yours truly, in a routine I’ll delete all my diaries episode.
more than meets the pie in the eye, so to speak.
the only thing that really bothers me about Kos is that Cheveron Ad sitting on the Top of his blog.
well it was there yesterday.
respecting kos is very costly these days imo.
I apologize to pyrrho for noot fighting with hm.
Where’s my podcast?
he was the only member of the club to have even acknowledged this debate