I can see that there is no way to have a strategy discussion on the issue of marriage rights for all couples, no way to focus on the larger issues as I see them. I’m sure it’s my failure as a writer, and I apologize for that.
And it’s starting to really upset me to have to repeat over and over that I am not against same-sex marriage. It is starting to really upset me that, after all of the years I have posted on this forum, my fundamental advocacy of human rights should even be called into question. But I guess that’s why they call it a “wedge issue.” It was foolish of me to think I could shed any light on the situation.
So that’s why I deleted my diary.
I’m sorry you deleted your diary before I got a chance to read it. A good discussion, even heated discussions can be a good thing(as long as no one starts throwing around personal attacks).
My opinion and your opinion are at opposite ends of the pole on this issue but I still would have liked to read your diary.
when you delete diaries, you delete the work people put into the comments. I understand why you did it, but I want to discourage you and others from doing so in the future. In some scoop sites it is considered a bannable offense. I have never held that view, but I want to make sure people only do it as a last resort.
Why give people the option of deleting diaries if it is something they can be banned for?
that’s why I don’t make it a bannable offense. But it is still rude to delete other people’s comments. Imagine if someone deleted a diary of yours without asking for permission? It’s not that different.
It’s also why I won’t delete people’s stuff if they quit the site unless there are legitimate privacy concerns.
I’m not making a big deal of it, I just wanted you to know how I feel about it. Sorry you feel like people are ganging up on you…I don’t intend that at all.
I can’t believe you deleted this. I read it this morning and thought about my response all day. I can’t believe you deleted it. Wow. What poor form and I was understanding where you were coming from. That was a bad move on your part. It was a good discussion and now I am just really pissed that I can’t respond and that I can’t see all the responses and …. ugh. If you can’t stand the heat, then just back the fuck off, but don’t delete the words of others…that is just way bad. Dag nab it. I hate when people do this shit.
I am really disappointed that you deleted the diary. I certainly understood your point of view and happen to agree with it.
I was hoping you or someone else had a better strategy, as the “gay marriage” agenda came before the wingnuts decided to make it a wedge issue.
After more than 30 years trying to get anyone to take it seriously that gays should actually have civil rights, I think some one of those activist groups just decided to try another angle. I sure don’t know what would supersede equality in civil rights, so I am curious as to what others might suggest gays try next?
Damned if you do and damned if you don’t!
No matter what I do, I am under attack from a community where I have invested years of my life, and I really don’t like being under attack. I was not attacking anyone, just sharing some thoughts.
I deleted my diary because I got extremely uncomfortable having to say over and over that I am not against same-sex marriage. How ridiculous that I should have to say that even once!
I am not against same-sex marriage. I am against same-sex marriage being used as a wedge issue. I am against the use of clever memes to manipulate public opinion. I am against marriage being used as a fairy tale ending when it isn’t. I think we all need to reflect on the institution of marriage, how we define it to ourselves, and our true responsibility in that equation.
People got nasty. They ridiculed me, and I am too thin-skinned for that. I left Daily Kos because I am too thin-skinned to become the object of spite and ridicule because I express controversial opinions, even in my anonymous cyber-incarnation. Too thin-skinned, and I apologize for that. It is my fault.
However, I felt safe posting here disclosing intimate details about my personal life, and now I regret the trust that I had in this community. My solution was to delete the diary, and now even Booman attacks me. So much for the definition of “Trusted User.”
I have noticed lately on the internet that people feel very free to be nasty in order to defend their own positions. Even on a progressive forums, if you go on an Obama thread with questions, or a Hillary thread with questions, you will be instantly attacked and vilified.
Do these people actually think they are campaigning for their cause by being nasty and insulting those who disagree with them?
I don’t think so. I think something else is going on here. I’m not sure what it is at this point, but whatever it is, I don’t like it.
I’m another who is disappointed you deleted your diary, because I thought for some time about how and what to respond with, and by deleting the diary you threw out my effort.
You say you’re for gay rights. I believe you. You say you want to talk political strategy about how to deal with gay marriage being used as a wedge issue. I believe you.
But your approach is flat-out terrible, and I think you need to hear that and take it on board. You telling me as a gay woman that ‘marriage won’t guarantee happiness’ is a) completely irrelevant to a discussion on what political strategies we can use to stop gay marriage being a wedge issue while supporting gay rights and b) gratuitiously patronising to boot.
I also think there is quite a deal of confusion in your understanding of just what rights and guarantees marriage does accord heterosexual couples and why therefore gays want that same right. All through your last diary you conflated happiness and other personal satisfaction ‘guarantees’ (or not) within a single marriage – ie internal dynamics – with the legal, religious and social rights and recognition that marriage certainly bestows. Those rights are bestowed regardless of whether the institution itself as expressed by individual couples, is flawed.
So I think you need to do some reflecting, and maybe come back to this discussion. As I was the first commenter on the thread and then went to bed, I don’t know what transpired after that.
And finally, please, if you want people to acknowledge your personal principles on issues such as gay/human rights, and at the same time open up a discussion in a controversial area, try stating your values and principles upfront and inviting people to tread carefully in their conversation – rather than asking everyone else to assume your motives and beliefs on your behalf. If you want to tread in controversial territory directly affecting people’s human rights, I really don’t think assuming is good enough. As it was I’ve hardly interacted with you, and wouldn’t really have a clue how you feel on the issues. As it was I gave you the benefit of the doubt because of the site you’re on, and the general impression of some thoughts poorly expressed, but nevertheless well-intentioned.
peace.
But your approach is flat-out terrible, and I think you need to hear that and take it on board.
This is where I stopped reading and this is why I deleted my diary.
I am sick of being attacked.
I am on your side.
that as hard as it is, if I stop listening when others have the patience to point out where I’m going wrong, particulary around controversial issues, I would not learn anything about my own behaviour and how to engage with others in a way that moves the conversation forward.
I decided to listen because having nothing but thin skin and thoughts of ‘poor me’ got tired after a while.
You are a coward. I understood your position. I would have backed it to some degree if you were not a coward. But you are coward and can not even argue your own point. I am so effin pissed that you stopped all discussion cause you were too cowardly to face people opposed to you.
Whatever…you have no voice. You deleted it because you cannot take the heat. I won’t comment on your diaries because I know you will delete them if they don’t flatter you. Ugh.
I’m sorry myriad…this was in response to Mythmother, not you.
This is one of those turning points in a constructive, mature discussion…where it can turn into name calling and personal attacks.
You are right. I am sorry. I am a bit agro tonight due to PMS. I apologize. If I could edit the post, I would. It is an emotional issue for me and I need to learn to be more diplomatic. Thank you SN.
Hey we’re PMS sisters! Woo hoo!
I’m sorry. I was pissed cause I really wanted to discuss the issue. I just really hate when people delete topics. But, I went over the line, and I apologize.
i don’t think you need to apologize, kamakhya.
mythmother’s action (of deleting her diary and then writing a diary talking about deleting her diary) was a pretty strong emotional statement, and it was obviously designed to get a response.
yours was a strong response, and i don’t think it was uncalled for. what mythmother did was a strong statement in itself.
i saw this “why i deleted my diary” diary when it first came on line, and i spent quite a few minutes crafting a response.
i pulled no punches in my response. i ultimately decided not to post it because my reactions were strong, and i was afraid it would fuel the flames of anger rather than address the issues.
nonetheless, i felt my response was a legitimate and justifiable reaction to how mythmother comported herself on this forum.
basically, if you want to delete a diary, go ahead. but you can’t put up another one that in effect says “you guys made me do it” and not expect anger to be aroused.
i don’t even know what the first diary was about. but mythmother, if you expect to post on blogs and not get crap about it, you need to go to the my little pony fanfic site, cuz everywhere else people will have opinions and won’t be afraid to share them with you.
sorry if you are feeling bad about the response to your stuff here mythmother. but what you did (deleting, and then posting about deleting) was act out, and in doing so you pushed a lot of buttons.
a strong response to behavior like that is only expected.
as you can see, plenty of people are on your side. next time, don’t get so pent up and persnickity, and maybe some real dialogue can take place.
i mean no disrespect by what i say. but you can’t threaten to take your ball (diary) and go home and not expect to be labeled childish.
How is the comment that your approach is terrible a personal attack? If we make that jump then any kind of discussion is impossible. Our opinions are not all we are. But by making the statement that you are being attacked because others have and express different opinions than yours precisely reduces you to your opinion that is being attacked. I don’t think you want to do that. It looks like this is precisely what you don’t want to do. But the inability to distinguish between an actual personal attack and a difference of opinion isn’t your problem alone. It is the foundation of the utter lack of civility in political discourse in America today. When we reduce ourselves to our opinions we negate or ignore all that we share with other human beings. Regardless of our opinions, regardless of gender, race, sexual orientation, etc. human beings have more in common than not. We fail to remember that when we reduce our humanity to our opinions, or to one of the particular aspects of our being.
I think it’s probably really cheesy to attach one of my diaries one of my comments. Am I really living in a universe of one? But here goes. This speaks to what I think may be the underlying issue here.
http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2007/3/25/124541/033
I am thin-skinned too, MM, which is why I’m too timid to get involved in heated discussions here. I give you a lot of credit for sticking it out when people disagreed with you. This medium leaves a lot to be desired sometimes when you can’t read someone’s intentions or body language and it’s frustrating to feel like you were misunderstood. I’m glad that this site is generally free of flame wars and that we can discuss issues with grace and maturity.
I notice several users being upset with the deletion – which I very well understand. I saw your entry early today – there were 4 comments and 4 recommendations (I think) – at the time. Even if (one of the) comments was sharp and critical, it was also constructive and there was a basis for a good discussion.
You should stand for your argument, or acknowledge the position of others – even if people are critical, I sense no hostility here.
On the off-chance you saved a copy (even without earlier comments), please repost and let the discussion take it’s course.
I read about half of your diary this morning and then had to run out. I did manage to read a few comments before my exit. In all fairness, I’ve got to tell you that I have endured comments to diaries I posted at dkos that would make your toes curl. I’ve been called a variety of things that I found offensive. And yet I never deleted those diaries. They are still there under the same screen name I use here if you have any interest in reading them. (Of course that was some time ago and the things that I post these days are a bit different.) But deleting was not appropriate because there was value in the discussion along with the name-calling. Consider carefully next time and step away for a few moments if it gets painful.
You have my sympathies. (I didn’t get to see your diary.) Gay marriage is the American left’s equivalent of the “right to life”: it is very difficult to have a reasoned discussion of this issue.
This should only be a wedge issue for the right.