In this article, Haitham Sabbah, of Sabbah’s Blog, responds to his recent banning and those of numerous Daily Kos members in what seemed to be a purge of supporters of the Palestinian cause and the ongoing occupation/colonization of Palestinian lands, now funded by the United States. All were diarists who wrote against Israel’s perpetration of a modern human rights injustice and the role of a biased American foreign policy in supporting this hard Zionist project to gain the Greater Israel dream, an Israel from the Jordan River to the sea at the expense of the Palestinians.
The above cartoon by Ben Heine, the Belgian peace activist, depicts Daily Kos as the Daily Censor, in a recent turn of this so-called Left Wing Democratic blog, the representative of people politics, toward acceptance of the Zionist view of Israel, a foreign policy stance once thought to only characterize the AIPAC/DLC centrist wing of the Democratic party. As such, Daily Kos has caved in to the Bush administration and the religious/nationalist Zionists, turned its back on traditional Democratic civil/human rights values, and is now helping these Zionists achieve their goals by censoring criticism and kicking Palestinian and pro-Palestinian voices off his blog.
My friend, Sabbah, entitled his article,
Daily Kos : Quote IOF, you are a peace maker, Quote Palestinian, you are a terrorist
Sabbah believes that Zionism is a racist ideology that has killed tens of thousands of the Palestinian people since the “ethnic cleansing” of 1948, and has kept the West Bank and until recently, Gaza, under military occupation for 40 years, while they continue to be colonized.
It has been nearly a month since I decided to start cross-posting most of what I write in my blog to my diary at Daily Kos. The diaries at Daily Kos are more or less make for a personal blog, where members can publish their essays and engage in comments and dialogue with other members, if they wish to comment. Daily Kos is advertised to be the liberal-progressive front of the Left Wing in the Democratic Party of the United States. In other words, they claim to be the voice of Progressive Democrats, and that’s what I thought, until few days ago.
It is worth to mention that I’m one of many blog owners (Sabbah’s Blog) to cross-post at Daily Kos [see Daily Kos FAQs: . . . “11. Cross-posting from your own blog is welcome. Remember, though, that you can only write one diary a day at Daily Kos.”], activists, authors, etc… coming from different backgrounds and religions, we are Americans and non-Americans, Jews, Christians, Muslims, non-believers alike. What we have in common is being pro-Palestine, pro-Peace, and anti-Occupation. Among the group from this side, there are many ideas and opinions about what is best to resolve the Israel/Palestinian conflict. We might not agree all the time, but we all agree that Israel’s Occupation should end.
For an unknown period of time, there was a very active member on Daily Kos who went by the name, Shergald. He was one of the most active Kossacks members who never missed a day without publishing a pro-Palestine diary. Actually, the majority of his diaries were about the peace movement in Israel, Palestine, the US, and the around the world. Obviously, life is not that easy, and what everyone thought to be a `freedom of speech’ forum turned to be an occupied Zionist zone. Shergald was attacked and attacked thousands of times by this Zionist gang until, when they could not stop him by countering the truth and the facts he presented in his diaries, they started to overwhelm the administration at Daily Kos with complaints about him supporting the worst lies that you can imagine, such as his being anti-Semitic, etc. What Daily Kos administration did was surprising. The progressive left wing voice of the Democrats decided to silence Shergald, to ban him from writing diaries or having any functionality on Daily Kos. He was frustrated and disappointed by the unjust and biased decision to ban him (twice), so he decided to come back, but under different ID’s. To cut long story short, his new IDs were hunted one after another until it reached a stage that anyone who knew or knows Shergald, or had any association with him (no matter what association means, you will see examples later), was kicked out of Daily Kos on behalf of the Zionist gang.
Unfortunately, after Shergald was silenced and banned from appearing on Daily Kos, the frequency of I/P diaries went down in volume to the level that it was hardly noticed to the pleasure of the Zionists. That meant that American readers of Daily Kos (nearly 0.5 million a day) were not going to read the facts behind the news or hear the hidden stories or history of the Palestinian catastrophe or the daily injustices that they go under by the Israeli occupation, or about the many peace organizations that have evolved to stop the injustices. Nor would they hear about the influence of AIPAC on American foreign policy at a times when Democrats are preparing from the next presidential election, a topic progressive Democrats are highly interested in.
What happened next was not very surprising. Several pro-Palestine/pro-Peace bloggers, authors, writers, activists, etc… started appearing at Daily Kos and bridged the gap that Shergald left. The number of new pro-Palestine Kossacks increased during the last 60 days or so to a level where the balance of true facts compared to propaganda/lies turned toward the pro-Palestine side. To name some of those new members, Steve Amsel (a.k.a. DesertPeace), Ben Heine (his blog here), Umkahlil (her blog here), Anna (her website here), Eileen Fleming (her website here), Jon the Anti Zionist Jew (I was told that Jon was posting for long period), and many more. I, Sabbah, was there too. I don’t think that anyone mentioned above expected that their time on Daily Kos would fly smoothly, but at least it was a more even match than anyone thought.
The Zionist gang reopened their propaganda operating manual and started shooting accusations left and right that this one is anti-Semitic, that that one is pro-terrorist, and so on and so forth. They first managed to ban Ben Heine in no time at all for the following drawing:
Defenders of Avigdor Lieberman, Israel’s most racist government official, who advocates the transfer of Israeli Arabs into Bantustans, were incensed. A couple of days ago, Steve Amsel was banned because someone from the Zionist group complained to the administration that Steve might be Shergald in disguise. The complainer later admitted that he was wrong, but the Daily Kos administration decided to shoot the messenger (Steve) anyway and let the venom of the Zionist gang spread more lies around Daily Kos. So many tried to justify the banning of Steve Amsel, thinking it was the result of his being associated with Shergald. Of course, the biggest evidence they have to blot this association were a comment or two of Shergald’s on Steve’s blog, where Shergald was not saying any more than “well done” or “great post” following one of the master pieces that Steve writes.
Once the war started, it didn’t stop. Other pro-Palestine authors such as Umkahlil, Anna Baltzer, and me were included. In fact, it started only seconds after any of us posted his/her first diary there. One can only wonder how many agents the Zionist gang and AIPAC recruited to act as watchdogs 24/7, sifting through every single word published on Daily Kos, observing every single move of Daily Kos members. It is evident that the Zionists on Daily Kos are very organized and I would not be surprised if they are supported by their biggest allies from the Bush administration Department of State. I’m sure that you all remember my own story about the State Department official who attempted to interfere in my blog (more here).
Yesterday, which marked the celebration of the Nakba, Daily Kos blew the last bridge it had with the Palestinian voices. Midday GMT, the news started coming. They first banned Umkahlil, later on they banned me, and last but not least, they banned Anna Baltzer. Why? Nobody knows. No reason is given. No warning or any notice from the `busy’ Kos administrators to let any of us know the circumstances under which the decision was taken and what valid reasons they gave for throwing these poisoned donuts at us. All that we heard from unofficial sources: we are associates of Shergald, again!
It is sad to believe that Daily Kos administration based its decision on such meaningless illusions. It would not have taken them more than a minute to check the history of each of us and see that we all are established pro Palestine peace activists, just by looking at our blogs and websites. We don’t have to have any association with anyone, not even with other banned Kos members or other groups that might also talk about the plight of Palestinians. Our blogs and our work, online and offline, have their own merits and stands on its own. I do not deny knowing Shergald, in fact I’m proud to know a tough fighter like him, but he is not the reason why I started posting on Daily Kos. The main reason is the same reason I write here in my blog, which all of you know is about presenting the truth about Palestine historically and about the daily catastrophes that result from the criminal occupation of the Zionists of my homeland. I never hid my objectives, which are to bring justice to everyone in this conflict, including Israelis.
Today I’m left with no access to publish anything more on Daily Kos. That’s bad. Not only for me, but for my American friends who know nothing more but the false Zionist narratives of the occupation. It is sad to confirm now that Daily Kos is the latest “Zionist Occupied Zone.” It is unfortunate that they still advertise being a “Progressive Voice” for the Democratic Left Wing. It is also bad to believe that the Left Wing will let it go as is, but I hope not. But imagine the credibility of the Left Wing if this remains the case at Daily Kos, especially as they are preparing themselves for next year’s elections. No one denies that the Israel/Palestine conflict is a central topic of the US foreign policy. If it remains as such, I will not be surprised to see AIPAC ads on Daily Kos soon. And need I say so, there will be another five or more years of support for Israel’s illegal occupation by the new US “Democratic” administration?
Having said all the above, I’m not really interested in going back to cross-post diaries on Daily Kos, even though there is an open invitation to do so in the FAQs. It is not because it is not important. To the contrary, when 0.5 million people read what is published there, it is very important to keep the pro-Palestine view live. But to know that the Zionist gang have taken over the blog, it is next to impossible to make any move without expecting to get hijacked by the venomous Zionists of the site. Venom only seen elsewhere at Little Green Footballs. In other words, until and unless Daily Kos administration corrects its policies, and the mess its created because of its fear of Zionist members and their propagandists, it will be waste of time fighting the winds of colonial Zionism, while they have the control keys of Daily Kos in their hands.
Last but not least, I really feel sorrow for leaving because I will miss the peaceful voices of the silent pro-Palestine majority at Daily Kos. However, I’m glad that I made more friends than enemies while there, no matter what happens. Just keep in mind that if you want to be seen as a peacemaker, stop applauding the war criminals and supporting the IOF terrorists. On the other hand, watch your back if you quote any Palestinian. You will be tagged as a terrorist.
Good bye “Zionist Occupied” Daily Kos!
Update: This diary is a must read – Restoring The Palestinian Voice To Daily Kos
http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2007/5/17/151938/849/c96
You will be shocked to know that the reason we (Nancy and I) got banned for has nothing to do with the Shergald “association” thingy, but is even more silly than that. It is because Nancy and I recommended another pro-Palestine diary there (Anna Baltzer’s) and the administrators think that that diary promotes “terrorist” views.
The DKos claims were defeated and the banning now has no merits. It was a racist action.
Thank you for these insights, Sabbah.
UPDATE: Since this article was published, there have been more bannings at Daily Kos, including a veteran member, ServantSavant, and a few others. I will try to update this information as it is received. Also, although Eileen Fleming was unquestionable banned and unable to blog on Daily Kos for weeks after her emails were ignored, for some reason, her ban was lifted. Perhaps a moment of embarassment or self-reflection stalled the purge.
Daily Kos is purging certain members. This is a tool used to cosolidate and promote a certain point of view. It is used in fascist and communist states most effectively. Let the user beware, because purges expose the views and tactics of those using the tool.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/purging
To rid (a nation or political party, for example) of people considered undesirable.
That’s why this diary asks, Is Daily Kos a Zionist Occupied Zone?
Haitham Sabbah is the administrator of a website entitled Palestine Blogs – The Gazette. Yesterday, May 20th, Sabbah’s website published an article entitled Being Anti Semitic.
In addition to recycling a definition of antisemitism that simply ignores its origin as a word coined by Jew-haters in the nineteenth century to describe their form of “racially-based” Jew hatred, the article published at Sabbah’s website includes the following:
Sabbah also revealed his own disdain for a free exchange of ideas by banning me from commenting on his blog because I am a Zionist, which is to say that I support the existence of the state of Israel. First Sabbah’s banning announcement, then my comment that elicited the ban.
Sabbah wrote:
My comment:
First, I don’t think any Palestinian is going to give up the right of return, considering the involuntary basis 800,000 people were ethnically cleansed from their country, many killed along the way. If Jeff Halper is correct, then at least 3-5000 were murdered when they attempted to return to their homes and villages after 1948.
These are not a very ethical basis to tell someone that a return would undermine Israel. That is incorrectly phrased: it would undermine Zionism because it is quite evident that Israel cannot be a democratic and Jewish state at the same time. That is already seen in Israel today in that Israeli Palestinians, being Arab, are indeed second-class citizens. Furthermore, the quest to colonize the West Bank by implanting hundreds of Jewish only towns and cities does not auger well for the Palestinian rights.
As I mentioned, Sabbah believes that Zionism is a racist ideology. As for his statements about being anti-Semitic, I can only believe he is trying to make a statement about being anti-Zionist, but since English is not his first language, he verbalized it in an inappropriate way, not understanding that antiSemitism is a form of bigotry, but that antiZionism is a political position conflated with being Jewish. I can assure you that many of his friends are Jews like Steve Amsel and Anna Baltzer who are involved in the peace movement, and that he is not a prejudiced person.
“I don’t think any Palestinian is going to give up the right of return”
Are you aware that the Geneva Initiative, negotiated jointly by Israelis and Palestinians, limits realization of a Palestinian right of return to the future state of Palestine? In other words, we already know that what you think is not what is.
Now for my questions; actually, a series of related questions.
If I understand you correctly, you advocate, indeed you work to realize, an unfettered right of Palestinians to (in your words) return to (what is now) the state of Israel. As you must know, however, the vast majority of Israelis reject such a claim, including such stalwart doves as Amos Oz.
So, here are my questions.
What strategy, if any, do you have to achieve you goal peacefully?
Do you reject an end-of-conflict, two-state for two peoples peace settlement between Israel and the Palestinian people in favor of, e.g., a so-called one-state solution?
a. If so, considering the demonstrated willingness and ability of Israelis to defend their state, which structures their collective life, what peaceful strategy, if any, do you have to achieve your goal?
b. If not, are you nevertheless willing to reject an end-of-conflict, two-state for two peoples peace settlement that does not include your asserted right of return?
To the extent your asserted right of return and a one-state solution might be achievable, doesn’t the only plausible path run through a two states for two peoples, end-of-conflict peace settlement and the possibility that, over time, a majority of Israelis peacefully may be persuaded to form a more organic union with Palestine (and Palestinians generally)?
The claims of “Palestinians”, the majority who are Arab & have lived in the region for centuries, to this land MUST be regarded as having more weight that that of “Israelis” who are only 60 years or so removed from being “Russians” or “Poles”, etc. and whose claim on the land as “Jews” has been severed by 10 centuries or more of being “Europeans”.
In follow up to your question about my friend, Sabbah, I have now read enough to convince me that you will never change your tactics, attempting to slay messengers rather than responding to their ideas and information.
What I read was on MLW to the same post. Had I had the time to lookup your contention, I would have known that it could not have come from Sabbah. The same old disingenuousness from a right wing Zionist, coming up with a linked blog that happened to have the above statement and then attributing it to Sabbah. That’s pretty sad, perhaps desparate. When all you can do is be on the defensive, when the truth is not on your side, people like you resort to lies, such as this one about Sabbah. Bye aAmerican.
There’s so much bullshit in this post that I’m hard-pressed to focus on any one item. That said, objective folks can clearly recognize that (a) there are and were no “defenders of Avigdor Lieberman” on DailyKos, (b) there has been no spate of pro-Israeli Government diaries which required a balanced response, and (c) anti-AIPAC diaries are a regular feature on Daily Kos, even without your appearance.
Finally, when you’re so willing to admit that “He was frustrated and disappointed by the unjust and biased decision to ban him (twice), so he decided to come back, but under different ID’s,” well, it’s no surprise that the site administrators took a hard line against such suspicious new users.
Richard Silverstein
Ben Heine
Steve Amsel (Desert Peace)
Sabbah
Umkahlil
Anna Baltzer
Eileen Fleming (banned by since magically lifted)
have their own sites and cannot be shergald.
Fairleft
Curmudgiana
posted at the same time shergald was active as shergald and cannot be him.
ServantSavant (not listed in the cartoon) was a DKos member years before shergald came aboard.
Who have I missed AMONG THE BANNED?
At the same time, numerous Megaphone Zionist hipsters descended upon any diary that was critical of Israel or promoted the peace movement, for the sole purpose of hijacking them, troll taging them, turning them into persistent flame wars, engaging in behavior that is formally typical of trolls, WERE NOT BANNED.
If you are here to defend Kos, you certainly left your lawyerly garb at home. Try again. No one believes that shergald caused these bannings.
Find someone who engaged in similar copyright abuse in those diaries who was not banned. And I didn’t realize that one person couldn’t run multiple sites.
There is no evidence that Eileen was ever banned. Also, what or who is a “Megaphone Zionist hipster”?
There was no copyright violations ever. That was something made up by the Megaphone gang. You have been informed of such, but now I see that you are not even involved with Daily Kos any more, a purported lawyer who defended Kos two years ago, claiming to be the site lawyer. You apparently missed the latest excuse.
No matter. Glad you thought enough of the essay to show up. We missed you.
I saw the copyright violations, which occurred right around the same time you accused me of being an LGFer. They were deleted because they were so completely egregious, placing the site in jeopardy.
A “purported” lawyer? Whatever. That I represent the site does not mean I’m involved in everything it does. This hardly presents a legal issue.
Just as a matter of interest, how can the posting of a cartoon you drew yourself and an article you have permission to reproduce be copyright infringement?
If it was, why can the post which reproduces a page from LGF which in turn reproduces the original “offending” page on Kos not be itself a copyright infringement? Even more to the point, why has that screen shot not been removed from the Kos site by the supervisors since surely it also infringes the copyright of LGF in so far as they own the copyright of the page, apart obviously from the screen shot they include which infringes the copyright of the diarist/cartoonist?
Are we talking about Heine? I thought the article was deleted b/c he actually lacked permission, but his offensive graphic remains online.
I have no idea what LGF situation you’re referring to.
No, one of two images originally on the diary remains. The one which caused offence is the cartoon which equates Avigdor Lieberman with Hitler. He is carefully not identified in the diary reporting on the LGF piece and it is there where the original page is re-reproduced.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/4/7/153443/8391
It is very interesting that I never saw such a violation or have ever been accused of such violation by the administration, only by some of the Megaphone gang long after I was banned. If what you say is true, then you must certainly be able to reproduce the author and title of such article, and the link to the so called article because that is never deleted.
One of the Megaphone gang as I recall claimed it was an article of Uri Avnery. But no one else made such a claim until you concocted one right now. And you use the term “they” were deleted, meaning there were many. Kos never claimed such a thing.
Your second lie here is that I accused of being an LFGer. But you know very well that I only asked you if you were the same Adam that I interacted with on LFG, which was actually a mistake for Red State.
My look who is turning out to be the liar here. Bye. At least until you come up with those links.
Huh? Articles which violate IP law can just get deleted. Period. And your “Kos never claimed” is too cute by half — everyone knows Markos wasn’t involved in this.
How many Avigdor Lieberman supporters have you found?
No evidence except Eileen. Maybe there was something wrong with her computer that enable her to get DKos, but not comment or post diaries. No response to six emails to admin, according to her. A technical glitch, perhaps.
Given your history of misreprentations regarding alleged bannings, I wouldn’t be surprised if this were a lie too, esp. given the fact that Fleming is still posting on the site.
Eileen is a friend of mine and we discussed her banning quite thoroughly. In fact, I informed when I read that little boy wonder said she had not been banned. Like yourself, he apparently enjoys bending truths.
NOT a Zionist-occupied one.
Bet on it.
If its owners thought that the viewpoints of the many, many people who have been banned…for almost any and all reasons short of truly abusive personal behavior…would help them in their quest to “win” (That is, to be seen as the prime voice of the centrist/quasi-left that is going to win the next election here in the U.S.), then those people WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN BANNED.
There is the long and short of the dKos question, my friends.
Now…the real question is whether the AIPAC folks own the mainstream Democratic Party and huge parts of the media..
If there is even any question left on that point.
I’ll tell you what.
Let any mainstream national candidate make some even tepid anti-Israel/pro-Palestinian remarks and watch the poll numbers in the following weeks. Watch the coverage in the opinion makers like the NY
Times.
Nyetism. (A respelling of the words “NY Times”.)
ALL the candidates walk in fear of Israel.
All of them.
Am I an anti-Semite because I see the truth of this?
Bullshit.
Could I write this at dKos without being banned/massively attacked?
NYET!!!
Could I write there that it seems to me entirely possible…on the evidence of the last 7 years…that the people who are presently running this country are in the business of DESTROYING it as it presently stands?
Quite consciously?
That they are in essence moles, representatives of another power?
A power that could be called multi-national corporatism?
Or even extra-terrestrial/extra-dimensional/that which has been referred to over the aeons as “Satanic” or dedicated evil of some sort?
No. I would be tinfoil-hatted right outta there.
Why?
Not because it doesn’t make some sort of line-level sense. Again…on the evidence of their consistent failures in action combined with such truly brilliant work on political levels. You are either dumb or you are not. Half-dumb/half-smart? A dumb act. Every time. Except for the occasional idiot savant.
And not because the owners of said blog are themselves representatives of such powers.
But because such viewpoints would distance them from the middle, and thus when the middle does win…as it assuredly will, because the fix is in so deep it is poking out of the rear end of the body politic already…they would not garner the credit and power for which they so plainly and nakedly lust.
Dkos is not a “Zionist Occupied Zone”, children.
It is simply a HUSTLER occupied zone.
They see which way the wind blows, and they are hustling to get sailing in the right direction.
Now…do the know this themselves?
THERE’S a question.
My own answer?
Probably.
Dimly.
In the deepest recesses of their own little rat brains.
Just before they fall asleep.
But then they wake up and start justifying.
Justification.
It’s what’s for dinner here in America.
Dkos.
The Drudge Report of the center.
Gnaw gnaw gnaw gnaw.
Later…
Gotta go throw out the garbage.
AG
Daily Kos is in the business of getting Dems elected and not in the business of making Dems apologize/explain how they could ever associate with such a bunch of anti-Israel bigots (which is what happens whenever the ADL gets done with you).
Sure, Daily Kos doesn’t mind pushing some issues that are outside the mainstream (like not starting a war in 2003 and ending it in 2004). Israel is different. You know it. I know it. Every breathing politician knows it.
With the exception of the deplorable and disastrous war with Lebanon, I have seldom blogged about I/P issues. It simply doesn’t advance anything. On the scale of shit the Bush administration is doing wrong, ignoring the peace process is a middling affair. When I do speak about I/P issues, it is only to advocate reinvigorating the peace process. But that is so much whistling in the wind with the neo-cons in power. I’d rather get to the point and call for impeachment.
“Israel is different.”
Yes, they are much more influential in America than South Africa (for instance) ever was.
Doesn’t make ’em right or mean I should support ’em though.
The Dutch lobby in America never could get their act together enough to make the Afrikaners appear to be the “victims” of Black Terrorism in the way that the Israel lobby have convinced us that they are “victims” of Palestinian Terrorism.
That AIPAC is powerful may be a fact – it doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be opposed. Zionists are, IMHO, just a Jewish variation of Radical Conservatism as practiced in the US.
Booman,
In my opinion, you are both correct and incorrect. True, discussions and arguments it may not advance peace. Perhaps the most wasted energy is spent on people who like to get together and propose satisfactory peace initiatives. Since none of the participants are likely to be elected Israeli PM, even more wasteful are arguments about it.
I think you may not be correct about the value of IP information, because we have been living for decades under a veil of news censorship, distortion, and propaganda about the conflict. Blogs can help to get news from the ground up into American media and to appreciate simple truths about the history and current developments. Ignorance is the biggest enemy of peace.
In short, it is about increasing knowledge.
shergald,
part of the problem you are encountering has to do with your agenda, which has a natural tension with the purposes of sites like not only Daily Kos, but this site and MyDD, firedoglake, and others.
It’s nice to be able to put out another side and perspective of the I/P issue on a big platform like Daily Kos where you will get a lot of readers for free and perhaps change some minds. But it isn’t necessarily consistent with the goals of Daily Kos if such diaries are causing politicians to shy away from the site, or refuse any support from the site.
Daily Kos has to protect their brand in order to protect and expand their influence. The question then becomes: are you being sensitive to this tension? Are you using that format responsibly?
The confusion arises when you put some other agenda ahead of the agenda of the site because you think all forums should be absolute free speech zones. But these sites are not free speech zones. We explicitly ban hate speech and right-wing talking points, for example. If someone came on here and tried to defend NAMBLA I’d make them stop in very short order. Or the KKK, or even violent environmental groups.
So, the trick for you is to find a way to discuss I/P issues in such a way that it doesn’t trump the prime directives of the forum you are participating in. Ask yourself, ‘how is what I’m saying going to sound on Bill O’Reilly’s show with a picture of Democrats that have participated here? Or advertised here?’
If you think your actions are going to cause harm you should consider that and anticipate that the management is going to be annoyed at best. A substantial part of the community might be hostile, and with good reason.
How does that fit in with your point that the I/P issue needs more discussion, not less?
That’s your challenge. It’s also a challenge for each site administrator to grapple with. I obviously draw a much different line than others. But I also have a much smaller spotlight on me and much less to lose.
I don’t disagree with the valid points that you are making. They are the main reason why most of my contributions at DKos were about the peace movements, propaganda, and Israel’s right wing intentions as evidenced historically and through their actions on the ground everyday. Hence, numerous diaries about house demolitions and land confiscations.
It is also my opinion that liberal Jews must lead the way to peace in the Middle East, because they have the greatest legitimacy in criticizing the past 60 or 40 years of Israeli nationalistic activity, but also because they are shielded from the Israel criticism is anti-Semitic charge. They also speak to the principled ideals of Democratic liberalism we all support.
Bill O’Rielly an argue what he wishes, but when you have American organizations like Jewish Voice for Peace criticizing Israel, and their antipropaganda arm, Muzzlewatch, unwrapping typically dishonest efforts by the right wing to stifle voices of peace or to paint a militarily occupied people as terrorists, then I can’t but believe that the Bill O’Reillys of the world will actually help the cause toward peace and justice by making outlandish claims that DKos or the blogosphere is biased against Israel.
Polls often ask Americans if they support Israel, and their response is overwhelmingly yes. But they are never asked whether they support the 40 year military occupation of the Palestinian people. How many Americans would support that? There is a growing silent majority out there that is beginning to appreciate a major source of conflicts in the Middle East and the dishonest attempts to keep them from the truth about it.
I don’t mean to go on here, but if the new Left Wing, the gate crashers, is not going to distinguish itself from the moderate AIPAC/DLC crowd, what is the point of Daily Kos or Booman or My Left Wing. MyDD and DU have already responded to that question by censoring IP on their sites. By contrast, during a year of strong IP messaging on Daily Kos, it has grown another 5%. I’m not going to argue on the basis of an illusory correlation, but it certainly has not hurt Daily Kos. That one can argue.
For me the I/P issue is a problem. After Iraq and Afghanistan, it’s our single most pressing foreign policy issue. But there is less than no hope of any progress under this administration. I was moved to cry out when Israel attacked Lebanon because it was so self-defeating, but in general I don’t see the point in debating the day to day issues, and least of all the meta-narrative. I absolutely see the merit in others doing it, so long as they are not directly involved in electoral politics.
What is going on in Israel is more important than what is going on in Estonia, but I don’t obsess of Estonia for similar reasons. How does it advance my agenda? At the moment, I’m not going to advance anything by decrying the occupation of Palestine.
As for your interpretation of the conflict, I see it as fairly one-sided (although not thereby unjustified, due to bias flowing the other way in media coverage).
For my part, I do not forget the trauma of 1973. We made Israel save from invasion but they have not responded as if we had done that for them. That is what I find most frustrating. There will be no repeat of 1973 unless Egypt falls out with the U.S. and finds a new sponsor (China?). Therefore, Israel owes it to us to reduce blowback for our support. The occupation lacks its original justification and must end. If they need help with Syria, we should finish the job we started with Egypt and Jordan. But we all know none of this will happen under the present leadership of either Israel or the U.S.
Therefore, it is more productive to talk to the U.S. and Israeli electorates about the need to change leadership.
Booman, a change in leadership will make no difference if the Democrats don’t have a different position on the settlements than the republicans, and right now they don’t. Not only is their poistion no more progressive, but they criticize Bush from the fucking right all the time. The reason they don’t have a different position, is because jerks like Kos, Hunter, and the cowards at DU etc… keep censoring anyone who does, thus marginalizing those who believe that Israel must stop the settlements.
Furthermore, we have no hope of ending the war with Bush in office either. It doesn’t stop us from demanding democrats differentiate themselves from the republicans on it. Why should the Palestinian issue be any different?
“fairly one-sided?” Not certain what facts I have quoted or not quoted, or interpretations I have made that appear one-sided. When I defend Israel, it is largely the peace activists who get my attention, or the antiZionist intellectuals, or politicians like Barak, a Labor Zionist, who is able to talk about removal of the settlements as part of an overall peace agreement, something he was prohibited from doing at Camp David/Taba 2000.
There is just no rationale for the military occupation, whose purpose is clearly to support the colonization of Palestinian land. Israel now controls 50% of the West Bank. From 90% ownership of the land of Palestine in 1948, the Palestinians now possess only 12%. Everything that is wrong in the region can be attributed to this military occupation and its consequences.
Link:
That 20% is as high as that number’s ever been, but so is that 58-59%, though a 2006 Pew poll had it at 44% v. 9%.
There is also data on “”Do you think the United States supports [Israel, the Palestinians] too much, about the right amount, or too little?” and “Do you favor or oppose the establishment of an independent Palestinian state on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip?”
This is certainly to a great extent a tribute to Israeli propaganda over the past two decades at least. Americans are not only not knowledge about the facts on the ground or history, but they have accepted distortions such as role reversal as to who is the aggressor in this conflict.
Here a few snippets from Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land, which I encourage you to see. Stop avoiding it.
Rabbi Michael Lerner, Founder & Executive Director, Tikkun Magazine: “When you have a population that is being occupied, when their fundamental human rights are systematically being denied, when they are not allowed to move from city to city and place to place, without a huge amount of harassment, when they are being subject to torture, when people are essentially in desperate conditions, it is not a surprise that they are going to be very, very angry. There is no understand by the public media, or the American media, what creates this circumstance. Israel occupies, people strike at Israel against that occupation. They use means I think are wrong means, namely, the terror, and then Israel imposes punishment on the entire people, which creates a climate which makes it easier to recruit.”
Major Stav Adivi, reserves, Israeli Defense Forces, Israel: “we have to understand that these (suicide bombings) are the effects of the occupation.”
Robert Jensen, Professor of Journalism, University of Texas-Austin: “In contrast to the international press, in American media, there is a reversal of cause and effect in that the occupation is framed as a response to the suicide bombings. All of the Palestinian actions are attacks and Israel actions retaliation, is meaningful. Retaliation suggests a defensive stance against violence initiated by someone else. It places a responsibility for the violence on the party provoking the retaliation. In other words, Palestinian violence like suicide bombings is seen as cause and the origin of the conflict. Since the September 11 attack on the US, Israel’s PR strategy has been to frame all Palestinian actions, violent or not, as terrorism. To the extent that they can do that they have repackaged the illegal occupation as part of the war on terrorism.”
News headlines: “This is Israel’s war on terrorism. F16s hit a Palestinian in the Gaza Strip this morning….The case the Israelis are trying to make: this is no different than what the US is doing in Afganistan (air attacks in the West Bank)…Prime Minister Ariel Sharon declared on television tonight, that he was determined to root out what he called `the terrorist infrastructure.'”
So the myth of the Palestinian terrorist, who just happens to be fighting a long and incessant military occupation that the UN has called illegal, and the myth of the savior, Israel, who is keeping us all safe by killing Palestinians.
Heh. You said that the polling didn’t exist, because if it did we’d learn of “the growing silent majority out there” for opposing Israel.
Now, oops!, it’s “okay, the polling exist, but the data is wrong because the Israelis lie.”
Make up your mind.
You quoted national polling not Daily Kos polling. For that matter everyone supports Israel, but not the Israel you support. Ask the Daily Kos community the right questions and you will find much more about the support for your position, being against ending the occupation, being for colonization of Palestinian lands, being for the economic blockade and its effects on Palestinian children and adults, like malnutrition, blockade of fishing in Gaza, and so on and so forth.
You complained:
I showed there was such polling of Americans. So now, you whine:
Make up your mind. You think people are so stupid they can’t read what’s on this page?
In short, it is about increasing knowledge.
Yup.
There it is.
Up and down the spectrum of human life.
AG
Now a stand-alone post.
Dkos. The Drudge Report of the Center. Or…Renfield Central.
Please reply there.
Thanx…
AG
TR for “the real question is whether the AIPAC folks own the mainstream Democratic Party and huge parts of the media..
If there is even any question left on that point.”
“asdf”?
“TR”?
TMFA.
Too Many Fucking Abbreviations.
What are we…texting here?
Speak clearly.
Thank you.
AG
At the slightest provocation, the Left is induced to form a circular firing squad. Tragic.
Shergald, your use of the phrase “Zionist Occupied Zone” is disgusting, IMHO.
It smacks of the phrase “Zionist Occupation Government” (ZOG), a meme used by the most reprehensible right-wing, neo-Nazi anti-Semites.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_Occupation_Government
“Zionist Occupation Government (abbreviated as ZOG) is an antisemitic conspiracy theory according to which Jews secretly control a country, while the formal government is a puppet regime. This expression is often used by various antisemitic groups including neo-Nazis in the United States, in Europe, ultra-nationalists such as Pamyat in Russia, and right-wing groups in Poland and Sweden.”
“One early appearance of the term was in 1976 in an article, Welcome to ZOG-World, attributed to an American neo-Nazi Eric Thomson. The term came to the attention of a larger audience in a December 27, 1984 article in The New York Times about robberies committed in California and Washington by a white supremacist group, The Order. According to the newspaper, the crimes “were conducted to raise money for a war upon the United States Government, which the group calls ‘ZOG,’ or Zionist Occupation Government.””
Is this the sentiment you’re trying to invoke here? If I were a “dirty-tricks” operative trying to force a wedge into the progressive community, I couldn’t think of a better way to go about it.
Here’s a “conservative” commentator I found to be pretty much spot-on regarding the never ending mess of I/P relations:
“Normally the patterns of history are reassuring. To hear of Tsarist Russia pressing for warm-water ports or 18th century England fighting hegemony on the continent or Ming China clashing with Japan over the fate of Korea is to feel a continuity, a comprehensibility, in human affairs. But in ‘The Jewish War’ (a History of the Jewish Revolt in AD 60), the shock of recognition is just a shock. Here, sixty generations ago, is nearly the same cast of characters engaged in exactly the same obsessive, vicious and fatal behavior for the same terrifying reasons on the same cursed, reeking, ugly chunk of land.” – P.J. O’Rourke
For the record, I agree with O’Rourke. A pox on both of their houses.
“If we believe in absurdities, we will commit atrocities.” — Voltaire
I see nothing tragic about calling the Orange Zone on it’s bullshit.
But, that said, welcome to the Pond JoeMax, you bastard! ;>)
Hugs.
The phrase acctually originated with Haitham Sabbah. I merely asked the question. Your response is that it is disgusting. Your view has been recorded by your response.
When I use the term, Zionist, I usually prefer to preface it with right wing, meaning right wing Zionist, the Likud and Kadima perspective, and that of some Labor members. I think Haitham, in his essay made clear what he meant by that, and if you are unable to distinguish his meaning from that of NeoNazis, then I would have to say it is your fault, not his. Did you actually read the essay.
Frankly, I can help but agree with him. Havd you noticed how Daily Kos administration has taken up recent Israeli propaganda by claiming that Palestinians are terrorists?
Here is some material I just quoted for someone else from the documentary, Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land:
Rabbi Michael Lerner, Founder & Executive Director, Tikkun Magazine: “When you have a population that is being occupied, when their fundamental human rights are systematically being denied, when they are not allowed to move from city to city and place to place, without a huge amount of harassment, when they are being subject to torture, when people are essentially in desperate conditions, it is not a surprise that they are going to be very, very angry. There is no understand by the public media, or the American media, what creates this circumstance. Israel occupies, people strike at Israel against that occupation. They use means I think are wrong means, namely, the terror, and then Israel imposes punishment on the entire people, which creates a climate which makes it easier to recruit.”
Major Stav Adivi, reserves, Israeli Defense Forces, Israel: “we have to understand that these (suicide bombings) are the effects of the occupation.”
Robert Jensen, Professor of Journalism, University of Texas-Austin: “In contrast to the international press, in American media, there is a reversal of cause and effect in that the occupation is framed as a response to the suicide bombings. All of the Palestinian actions are attacks and Israel actions retaliation, is meaningful. Retaliation suggests a defensive stance against violence initiated by someone else. It places a responsibility for the violence on the party provoking the retaliation. In other words, Palestinian violence like suicide bombings is seen as cause and the origin of the conflict. Since the September 11 attack on the US, Israel’s PR strategy has been to frame all Palestinian actions, violent or not, as terrorism. To the extent that they can do that they have repackaged the illegal occupation as part of the war on terrorism.”
News headlines: “This is Israel’s war on terrorism. F16s hit a Palestinian in the Gaza Strip this morning….The case the Israelis are trying to make: this is no different than what the US is doing in Afganistan (air attacks in the West Bank)…Prime Minister Ariel Sharon declared on television tonight, that he was determined to root out what he called `the terrorist infrastructure.'”
So the myth of the Palestinian terrorist, who just happens to be fighting a long and incessant military occupation that the UN has called illegal, has now been taken over by Daily Kos. Anyone who quotes a Palestinian belonging to Hamas, Al Aqsa Brigades, or the other Fatah groups, will be banned from the site.
A search of Daily Kos for the keyword “Palestinian” turns up 116 posts in the last two weeks, including posts from “jon the antizionist jew” and “londonbear”, who also posts here. A quick glance through them doesn’t reveal an anti-Palestinian slant. So how does this constitute a “purge” and banning of ALL posts on DKos that are opposed to the Israeli government policies?
Frankly, I don’t believe you had NEVER heard of the phrase “Zionist Occupied Government” (ZOG) before, or that you were ignorant of it’s sources and implications. I get the feeling wasn’t Sabbah ignorant of it either. The question is not about the meaning of the term “zionist”, yours or anyone else’s. It was the appropriation of a meme that is undeniably anti-Semetic.
I’m new here, but as Kamakhya can confirm, I’ve been posting to discussion forums, both political and otherwise, since the BBS days. And I’m well aware of the ploy where a person posts inflammatory posts to a particular forum knowing full well they will get banned for it, so they can take themselves over to another forum and have an “proof” of the “oppression” they suffer. Maybe you didn’t intend it that way, but it sure walks like a duck, and talks like a duck…
And before you slot me neatly into your “Zionist Conspiracy”, I’ll state for the record my views:
Maxx (and yes, it should be two x’s, dagnabit), there is no doubt that Dkos “purged” itself of “radical” pro-Palestinian bloggers. It eliminated several accounts over the past month. That some are tolerated does not make up for what they have done. I totally disagree with Shergald’s statement that DKos is a zionist conspiracy, but I do think that DKos bans people for not following its chosen message. It has happened time and time again. I can understand why Shergald and many others are disgusted with the so-called liberal voice of America.
I agree with you on most of this issue. Had the Palestinians gone with the Ghandi route, they would be infinitely more sympathetic. The whole blowing up of school buses has got to cease, as does the wall and the razing of homes.
And yes, you are welcome here and I will attest to the fact that you have seen more than a few blocks. But, be forewarned, the site is almost as liberal as I am! :>)
It seems to me that Booman’s assessment of the situation at DKos is likely to be the most accurate. Providing a soapbox for violent radicals like Shergald merely gives the wingnuts and their GOP allies ammunition to marginalize the whole progressive movement, without accomplishing a damn thing other than that.
The blogosphere is huge, and there’s plenty of places for Shergald and her/his compatriots to get their message out. Both you and I value free speech highly, but both of us have been forum moderators who had to deal with people who took unfair advantage of those values. And what usually happens? The forum is gutted and destoryed. No forum, DKos included, OWES anybody anything. Any forum is like a private party — if people puke on the floor and steal the silverware, they can rightly be compelled to leave.
We can complain about theocracies, and that the Jews have no “right” to have their own theocratic state, but what is Palestine under Hamas? A theocratic state. If Hamas and/or the PLO had as their stated goal a secular state that just happens to have a Muslim religious majority (i.e. Turkey), I’d back them to the hilt. But they want to eliminate the Jewish theocracy and replace it with a Muslim one. That’s a zero sum game as far as I’m concerned. Not even that – if I have to pick a theocracy, I’ll take a Jewish one over a Muslim one any day of the week.
Frankly, the Jewish theocracy in Israel is far more respectful of civil rights, especially women’s rights, than any Muslim theocracy you’d care to name, and that’s a big plus in my book. Also, Jews don’t proselytize to convert the “unbelievers”, and that’s another plus in my book.
People have been kicked in and out of that wretched piece of land for over 3000 years. It’s probably changed hands more than any other pile of dirt on the planet. Except now the Jews have “dibs” on it, and the only possible way to get the Jews out of there is to massacre every one of them, to the last child. Everyone knows that, even Shergald. The only way that Muslims will ever “return” to that land is over a river of blood, on a pile of corpses — which is the way they used to do it in the “good old days” (and not just the Muslims either.)
But now the civilization has evolved to the point that wars of conquest that decimate civilian populations are frowned upon by the world community (which is why the Palestinian territories haven’t simply been carpet-bombed and paved over by the Israelis long ago – it’s not like the don’t have the means to do it.) So the radical Muslim factions are understandably annoyed that they can’t handle the problem like their ancestors did – by the sword. They tried that back in 1973, and the Arab states aren’t about to make that mistake again. Not as long as the USA backs Israel with weapons and money. Take that away and the scimitars would be flashing amid cries of “Allah Akbar!” within five minutes.
Maybe Shergald is not a disinformation operative planted by the VRWC into progressive blogs to drive a wedge between liberals and get them at each other’s throats. But don’t think they aren’t watching the Left eat its own over this issue, and taking notes. And laughing at us.
I’ve found it generally to be a mistake to underestimate your adversaries. Paranoids live longer.
I see no evidence that shergald advocates violence. and Hunter has stated that he will ban all new propalestinian posters, just because he feels like it. This means that over time advocates of Palestinians will be outnumbered by right wing zionists, like another american.
I am not an antizionist like Shergald, but I think Clinton’s peace initiative failed because he favored the settlers, who are not a progressive dem constituancy. I want to go to back to Carter’s postion, of even handedness. Look both he and his wife are neocon on the Iraq war and they were on Israeal as well, and his peace initiative was a miserable failure. I don’t believe that Barak gave the Palestinians a generous offer. The right wing zionists are getting carter supporters kicked off by claiming they are violent pro-Palestinians.
If Democrats won’t differ from Bush on Israel and they keep criticizing Bush from the right, I have no hope they will be an improvement on this issue. People who claim the issue hurts dems are no different than those who claim being against the war hurts dems.
What Shergald advocates leads to violence. In the reality-based world, to advocate what Hamas defines as “right of return” means there would be a Muslim majority in Israel, and the only way that will ever happen is to kill or drive out all the Jews. By violence. Do you know another way to kill or drive them out?
As politicians, Hamas makes this demand for two reasons, the same reasons right-wingers always make ridiculous demands. To throw red meat to the base and keep them enflamed, and stake out a bargaining position that lets them negotiate from where they’ve moved the goal posts.
People like Shergald – “the base” — take them seriously and get seriously enflamed about “right of return”, as if the politicians ever really believed that was an attainable goal. Shergald is a tool, another pawn in the “base” that the politicians are using to move the goalposts of the debate.
And adopting the memes — i.e. “Zionist Occupied” — of despicable demagogues of the extreme right-wing is disgusting to me. It’s a purely racist, anti-Semetic meme. I don’t care how you re-define it. It’s a contaminated, diseased rhetorical tool and if anyone thinks they can pick it up and do good with it, they’re delusional.
Here’s an analogy: the swastika is an ancient Hindu holy symbol. Would Hindus, in a parade or at a protest, or on a website, choose to use the swastika as a rallying symbol? Only if they were insane. They can argue all they like about it NOT meaning the same things as it meant to Nazis, which is certainly true, but the meme is contaminated and there’s nothing they can do to change that. It will offend people, and rightly so.
In this case, “Zionist Occupied” offends me. And I’m not even Jewish.
When someone like Shergald uses that meme, with the full awareness of where it first came from (which I think is the case here), they think they can tap a bit of the power of that meme without getting burned. Hey, if you’re going to denounce Zionists, why not go back the the ones who have been doing it for decades, i.e. the white supremacy movement, for tips? “This time it’s for a GOOD cause!” they can tell themselves. They don’t hate Jews per se, just the Jews with political power, right? So that makes it OK?
Even ignorance is no excuse. If you were ignorant of the sources of this anti-Semetic meme, Shergald, then the right thing to do would be to apologize, now that you know, and avoid using it in the future.
“Language services three functions. The first is to communicate ideas. The second is to conceal ideas. The third is to conceal the absence of ideas.” — Otto Jespersen
Enjoyed this totally off the mark conversation, and if it pleases you to believe your ranty, but ignorant comments, so be it. The fact of the matter is my greatest threat came from the fact that I advertised a world wide peace movement on Daily Kos, which is the most damning type of information about the behavior of Israel’s governments over the years.
Imagine Israel acting in a manner that has inspired the development of over 200 peace groups in Israel, Palestine, the Middle East, Europe, Canada, and Central and South America, and everywhere else including Korea. It clearly gives credence to the proposition that Israel’s military occupation of the West Bank is totally intended to continue the colonization of West Bank lands, 50% of which is not in Israel’s hands, and is home to roughly 150 established Israeli only villages, towns, and cities, as well as businesses, industries, and agribusnesses.
I keep hearing this notion: if only they used passive resistance ala Ghandi. They have for years and still do, but the information barriers has limited coverage of such events, and nobody gets to hear about it. Passive resistance goes on every day and every week. Perhaps your own ignorance about them is in large part due to the MSM blockade. You would be better informed if you took in the documentary, Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land, which includes journalists and media experts among the orators. I’ll get the link for you later.
As far as Palestinian violence, which almost always refers to the suicide bombings during the second Intifada, many people are unaware that they did not begin until Israel had killed over a hundred Palestinian civilians, including 27 children, most of whom were shot in the head with live amunition. In the first three months, the head shot penchant of the IDF took out the eyes of another 159 children, in addition to killing more of them. After two years over 200 Palestinian children were killed. After six years, from 2000 forward, over 200 school children were killed by IDF and settlers, and a total of over 800 Palestinian children were killed, and over 4000 adult and children were killed, 80% of which were noncombatants. IDF soldiers who later came forward (Soldiers of Conscience) acknowledged that they had routine shot randomly into Palestinian neighborhoods. Pilots of F16s (now Refuseniks) flying over the Palestinian territories admitted taking out homes and apartment building knowing that civilian residents were inside. Drivers of Caterpillar bulldozers working in Jenin admitted taking down buildings with people in them.
So when you talk about violence and nonviolence in this conflict I would really suggest that both of you get better informed.
Nobody including myself supports this kind of violence on either side. But not trying to understand it leads people to make some pretty dumb statements.
Just quit blaming one of them for violence. If you consider Palestinians terrorists, you need to consider that Israelis are likewise terrorists, but much more efficient ones considering that they killed 4-5 times the number of civilians as Palestinians between 2000 and 2005, and only last year, 2006, killed almost 50 times more Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank, over 600 total. Heit Hanoun is only one of many massacres. Yes eyes were on Lebanon, but did any Americans care or protest about these useless murders in the Palestinian territories.
Palestinians are a population living under military occupation and have been so for 40 years, while Israel openly confiscates their lands. You two talk as if you don’t even know that. Perhaps you have been propagandized. As a measure of the propaganda thrown at Americans over the past twenty years, I just read an article about female suicide bombers in Palestine in Time Magazine that even failed to mention the military occupation they live under and the desparate conditions to say nothing of the killings, that encourages it. In spite of analyses as to why Palestinians become suicide bombers, including grandmothers, the article put the blame on Islam, clearly implicating the war on terror, Islmofascism, rather than the actual motive, vengence, which according to the Hamas recuiter, Rantisi, was the primary stimulus during the second Intifada. The killing of innocent elderly, mothers, and children that turned them into avengers.
Ignorance is no excuse of condemning anyone interested in enlightening the American public about the reality that seems to evade both of you.
And finally, that the phrase, “Zionist Occupied,” has been ruled out of the vocabulary as antiSemitic is stupid. The phrase here, as used by Sabbah, was clearly defined by him. What term would you have used to define a political site that has become unusually influenced right wing Zionists, which is my term for people who support the Likud and Kadima agenda in Israel. So let’s hear it.
In other words, you’re not denying anything. To wit, that you deliberately posted material on DKos that you knew full well would get you banned, so you could come to other forums and garner sympathy by complaining about it, and tar DKos with a right-wing racist brush.
You don’t even deny you are a disinformation agent, trying to drive wedges between people in the progressive community and put them at odds with each other.
Well, I’m glad we’ve settled that.
Not that I think that’s implausible, but where do you get your numbers? Just curious.
There’s easily 200 “groups” dedicated to just about anything. But let’s leave that aside. The Israeli government is guilty of the most reprehensible atrocities against Palestinians, as I’ve said. But supporting Hamas, and their political and military goals, are not the way to end it, not in the reality based world.
This is what I mean about sowing discord among progressives. Kamakhya is more sympathetic to your cause than I am, but now she’s one of the “Zionist Occupiers”, I suppose? Because she decries innocent people getting blown up in buses and restaurants? Perhaps someone should give you a copy of “How To Win Friends And Influence People”.
Indians lived under the British Raj for more years than Israel has existed, and they didn’t do that. American ex-slaves didn’t do that, after nearly 100 years of violent oppression. They found other ways, and their most admired and exalted leaders preached to them NOT to do that, to be non-violent and resist. The leaders of the Palestinians preach violent holy war, and they have still NOT achieved freedom for their people.
They say the mark of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result.
Glad to hear it, but you only speak for yourself. Obviously somebody supports the violence, because it keeps happening.
I blame violence on the ones who inflict it. I think I made it abundantly clear that I regard both sides as guilty. But what you’re doing is called “enabling”, like the woman who’s spouse beats her black and blue, but excuses it because, “you don’t understand, he’s under a lot of stress…”
Unless things have changed a lot since I was taught basic ethics as a child, two wrongs still don’t make a right.
Now your argument is that Kamakhya and I are stupid? That if only we knew everything that you know, we couldn’t help but agree with you about everything? Is it not at all possible that people might be in full possession of all the facts and still disagree with you and your support for one of two warring, violent political regimes that both advocate thoroughly unrealistic nationalist goals?
Israel wants Palestine to cease to exist. Palestine wants Israel to cease to exist. Neither of those things is ever going to happen, unless by means of massive war, likely involving nuclear weapons. It’s pretty much a given that Israel has nukes. Military action against them means those fanatics would probably pull the trigger and turn Palestine into molten radioactive glass. Aside from their place in Paradise as martyrs, what exactly do the Palestinians get out of that deal?
So that makes it OK?
I put the blame on Islam, squarely. Like I put equal blame on Judaism. I blame all monotheism for the violence they perpetrate for religious agendas. They, along with the Christians, have been at it for 2000 years, and they’re not about to quit.
Just so you know, I’m a Pagan and a polytheist. The tenets of Islam state that I must either convert to Islam or die, if I lived under a Islamic regime, because I’m not one of the “people of the book”, like Christians and Jews, who would be allowed to live. I’m simply a heretical unbeliever, so it’s the sword for me.
You’ll have to forgive me if it gives me a bit of a jaundiced view of Islam’s scriptures. When the Islamic version of Ghandi or King arises, preaching universal brotherhood, with millions of followers willing to risk their lives for non-violent resistance like they had, maybe I’ll revise my opinion.
I’m criticizing the way you go about it. You’re playing sheer propaganda politics. You spam-bomb a forum until you get banned, doing things you knew would get you banned, with the intention all along to get banned, so you can then play the sympathy card on other forums and condemn DKos for your “mistreatment”. No wonder the moderators there are sick of you, if the way you react to anyone who criticizes you here is any indication.
It doesn’t matter, since it was clearly defined by right-wing, reactionary, anti-Semetic, bigoted assholes many years before you or he ever used it.
So, if I wanted to start calling Palestinians “sand niggers”, it would be OK just so long as I “define” it to mean something other than what it obviously has been used as for decades, an anti-Arabic epithet?
Not that it’s my job to define your prejudices for you, but how about “influenced by Likud or Kadima supporters?” IOW, say what you mean, without the cheap sloganeering.
I know, it’s just not as colorful and catchy, is it?
Which, of course, is why the neo-Nazis used it too.
I have to admit that this:
“This is what I mean about sowing discord among progressives. Kamakhya is more sympathetic to your cause than I am, but now she’s one of the “Zionist Occupiers”, I suppose? Because she decries innocent people getting blown up in buses and restaurants? Perhaps someone should give you a copy of “How To Win Friends And Influence People”.”
hit it on the mark for me. Sheesh, you stick up for a guy and he slams you for it!
FWIW: Maxx and I often have political debates and rarely do we agree on all points. I am way more sympathetic to the Palestinians than him and I do appreciate Shergald’s articles. I may not agree with everything Shergald posts, but there are few people here who meet that criteria.
We definitely have very different viewpoints about DKos. Have no fear, I will keep trying to persuade him. :>)
I think we agree on far more than we disagree, old friend. (Like, impeach Bush, now. I’m with Booman, let’s cut to the chase.)
I am utterly sympathetic to the Palestinians who have lost life and limb, family and friend, home and tribe. How could anyone with a heart not be? And I am similarly sympathetic to the same tragedies on the other side.
But there is a limit to what sympathy can excuse, and blowing up innocent civilians crosses that line. Kama, you and I have certainly agreed that there is simply no excuse for domestic violence. I don’t care if the man lost his job, got beat up at a bar, had his car stolen and his dog died, it doesn’t give him an excuse to go home and beat his wife or girlfriend, who is innocent of doing any of those things. I might be sympathetic for the man’s misfortune, but it’s still no excuse.
Now, if the only people getting killed were the warriors, if they only attacked each other’s military targets, it would be different. But no, they blow up buses and bulldoze houses. That is dirty war, as only fanatical monotheists can do it, and I have little sympathy for any of them.
Well, you’ll have to persuade Booman too, because his comment on this thread is pretty much how I see it myself. DKos is now mainstream. It means they begin to have actual power. It also means they begin their corruption by that power. What would serve progressive causes is if they use that power for good in spite of their corruption. (IOW, the doing of good outweighs their corruption.)
But I think a slightly corrupt DKos that has the power to advance some progressive causes (if not all of them) is a worthwhile exchange. It’s not like they’re the ONLY game in town. But progressives should stop bashing each other and using horrible right-wing rhetoric to describe each other, just because they don’t agree on everything.
Otherwise, we whine uselessly in the wilderness forever, while the Rovians and their ilk burn the world down around us. If political impotence that’s the price of being politically correct on every political issue, no thanks. They tried that with Ralph Nader. We know how THAT worked out, don’t we?
I’m sorry, I can’t do fancy block quotes. Maybe you will show me one day? Pretty please? :>)
I do not excuse either side, but I can see how Palestinians feel they have nothing left to lose. Israel is a much bigger foe, thanks to the U.S., than they are. While I disagree on their tactics, I can see what drives them. To take the wife beating analogy further, I sympathize with a woman who feels she has no recourse but to kill the loathsome SOB. The courts won’t listen and the cops won’t listen and every day he beats her and her kids. If the U.N. won’t listen and the cops are Israeli, is it any different?
As for DKos…I could rant, but I won’t here. Booman has his own reasons, but Steven D stopped posting there after one too many “fuck the women” posts. It’s a matter of principal. DKos has done some truly heinous acts against the liberal left in order to appease the centrists. I am not a centrist and banning people for merely speaking out on an issue that is important to them, makes me cringe. Be it “the sanctimonious women’s set” or the pro-Palestinians, or the election fraud set. Dkos is not the voice of progressives or liberals and I will not exchange my principals for pandering to a centrist blog merely because they have numbers. I’d rather focus my energies on blogs that care what I think and don’t tell me to STFU for that.
<blockquote>place text here</blockquote>
I’m sorry, but that is just way to easy. You will have to make it harder.
Note to self, engrave into head the term “blockquote”
Dagnabit, I almost forgot. Since your here, check into to the Welcome Wagon Wednesday thread and introduce yourself. While BooMan isn’t as prolific as DKos, there is some good stuff here that I think you might enjoy. It’s not all I/P every day! :>)
not as prolific? Harumph.
LOL…It’s not as prolific, but ever so much more cozy and vastly more intellectual.
Booman, I love your site…look, I even brought people to it! :>)
Maybe ‘it’ isn’t but ‘I’ am.
LOL…great minds think alike. You absolutely are!
On second thought, you, personally, are far more prolific that Kos any day and far more well spoken.
“But there is a limit to what sympathy can excuse, and blowing up innocent civilians crosses that line.”
It should. But don’t you think that an Israel (American, sadly) F16 blowing up an apartment or house filled with families also crosses a line?
Is there really any difference between the acts of a suicide bomber and of an F16 fighter pilot? Yes, one volunteers out of vengence, the other is following orders. In the US military, there is such a thing as the refusal to follow an illegal order. And intentionally killing civilians, with rockets fired from F16s or attack helocopters, or randomly fired artillary shells, or M16 bullets fired by IDF soldiers, or bulldozers toppling buildings onto civilian residents inside, is also terrorism, state terrorism. 80% of the four thousand plus Palestinians who died between 2000 and 2005 were innocent civilians, about 20% of those children. Just what the hell are we talking about here: a modern mechanized military machine against a civilian population.
Why is that “blowing up (these) innocent civilians (does not) cross that line?”
Do you see your problem now, I hope?
How many times do I have to say it?
“The Israeli government is guilty of horrible atrocities on the Palestinian people.” That was me.
They BOTH cross the line. You’re not listening. You’ve decided to peg me as part of your “Zionist Occupation”, so you ignore what I’m actually saying and only hear what you want to hear.
People in the Palestinian’s position have two choices: low-level, suicidal guerrilla warfare, or massive non-violent resistance. They’ve chosen the former, even though such a tactic only works when the enemy is an invader from far away with thin supply lines. That’s what the Celts did to the Romans, which worked for them because Rome was very far away, and politically the Romans didn’t care all that much for the British Isles anyway.
The same conditions do not apply here. The Israeli Army’s supplies are right next door. And unlike the Romans, they care very much about the territory. It. Will. Not. Work.
You say the Palestinians were non-violent at first. But that was not non-violent resistance, which is quite different. My understanding is that a lot of Palestinians who had or have jobs, worked in Israel, doing mostly menial work (like Hispanics end up with in the US). So one day they all refuse to work. They close down all businesses, refuse to buy anything not made by themselves, they blockade bridges and roads with their bodies. All roads in and out of Israel shut down with human barricades. Make their oppressors drag them away, or beat them, or even kill them, and the next day a thousand more take their places. And all the while the cameras roll, while no Palestinian fights or resists in any way.
Their leaders go on hunger strikes. They organize mass marches across the countryside, and not a single person carries a weapon or fights. Some of them get beaten, and shot, and murdered (in the old American South, they used police dogs and fire hoses on the Freedom Marchers.) They get bombed and strafed. But they don’t stop. And they don’t fight back. And the cameras roll.
That is non-violent resistance. That is what the Palestinians have never done. If they’d have done that instead of launching violent infatadas, I think they’d have an autonomous homeland by now. It would have reminded the American people of Martin Luther King Jr, who is an international cultural hero, and the voters would have forced the US government to pressure Israel into making it stop. And the small numbers of “zionists” (as you define it) in the US wouldn’t have been able to do a damn thing about it.
You continue to argue from the viewpoint of the dimmi knowledge that gets into the US beyond the propaganda veil that the US is under. Get enlightened about it and the truth will no longer evade you. You have taken to your one-sidedness, blaming the Palestinians again for their own military occupation, excused Israel of atrocious killings of Palestinians, and said if only they would have this or that,
while completing ignoring the Greater Israel dream of an Israel from the Jordan Valley and the sea. You probably don’t even know that the West Bank in Israel is referred to as Judea and Samaria, and Israeli childen are taught that the West Bank is already part of Israel. Get educated then come back.
I’ve checked the Checklist of AntiSemitism by Nathan from the JVC and “Zionist Occupied anything” is not on it. Nazi comparisons and criticism of Israel is and for that matter, the US Civil Rights Commission, with the intent of stopping antiSemitism on college campuses, now regards criticism of Israel as antiSemitic. You might want to write Nathan and ask him to add it.
In any case, you apparently haven’t read Sabbah’s essay, yet. And yes, Daily Kos has taken up the latest Israeli propaganda concerning the view that Palestinians are terrorists, whom Israel is fighting, and it is populated by a gang of Megaphone responders who convey a right wing Zionist perspective.
I’m not going to respond to everything.
Because your own civilians including children are killed first does not justify your doing the same thing. Agreed. Why should Palestinians act like Israelis or at least those soldiers who would kill civilians. The Refuseniks and the Soldiers of Conscience have already told us enough about life on the ground in the West Bank and Gaza.
The point, which seems so difficult to get across, is that Israel is just as responsible for those suicide bombings as were the Palestinians, who engineered them. Everywhere we see Israel’s culpability diminished and the Palestinians incremented because they killed civilians, whereas Israel only did so in defending….what? Its military occupation.
At the bottom of all of those deaths on both sides stands Israel’s military occupation/colonization of the West Bank and Gaza, earlier.
For that matter, the dispossession of an entire people of their own country, in spite of its occupation for 400 years, is a further issue that Israel is unwilling to deal with, with several historians now clarifying the reality. It was not several Arab countries, who attacked Israel out of some kind of antiSemitic hatred, but who responded to the injustice metted out to the hundreds of thousands Palestinians flowing across their borders. We still hear grand stories about how Israel defended itself against seven armies, yet not a word of truth about why they attacked.
And now we are asked to accept lies about the reason for the military occupation of the West Bank. When does it stop?
And when will we stop hearing that the plight of the Palestinians is their own fault?
How about a link? I Googled everything, “checklist of antisemitism”, along with “JVC”, then with “zionist” and with “nathan” added, and you know what came up? Your posts to this website. Nothing else related.
The racist “Zionist Occupied Government” slur I’ve already documented:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_Occupation_Government
There’s plenty of references and followup links in the article.
As far as I can see, you haven’t actually responded to much of anything.
And considering your batting average so far, I’m not taking your word for the fact that the Civil Rights Commission bans all criticism of Israel as anti-Semitic. I need to see a reference.
I did. It was list of atrocities, followed by a rant.
I didn’t say it was their fault. I said they’re going about ending it the wrong way.
Making a rational case for a particular view is one thing; insulting the intelligence and decency of all who disagree is another.
“Whenever I despair, I remember that the way of truth and love has always won. There may be tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they may seem invincible, but in the end, they always fail. Think of it: always.” – Mahatma Gandhi
“you haven’t actually responded to much of anything.”
It is really a waste of time.
It certainly is. I asked for a link to this supposedly “Zionist” website you supposedly “checked” for a definition of “ZOG”, and you won’t even respond to that. Frankly, I think you made it up.
The only links you ever post are to your own messages on forums, and websites that are as rabidly anti-Israel as you are, from which your cut-and-paste your own messages. Kind of a self-referential perpetual loop, isn’t it?
You’re not interested in dialogue, except for “if you don’t agree with me 100%, you’re a brainwashed tool of the Zionist fascists.” Anything anyone says to the contrary is met with the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling “YA-YA-YA-I-CAN’T-HEAR-YOU!”
If it were my forum, I’d have banned you long ago myself, not for what information you put out, but for general rudeness. Booman doesn’t have that option, I guess, no matter what you post, or you’d be off on another forum bitching and whining about how persecuted you are.
Do you have any idea how damaging you are to your own cause? When you stick your finger in the eye of a flaming liberal like Kama, you really have no idea who your friends are.
Right now, I’m half convinced you’re merely a troll sent by Freepers to disrupt progressive blogs and drive wedges into liberal solidarity. The only thing that keeps me from being 100% sure is that I don’t want to credit them with being smart enough to do it.
Here try this….
http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2007/4/6/215150/4521
I actually looked up the real report, rather than a link to your own comments about somebody else’s comments about it.
http://www.usccr.gov/
What the report says is that anti-Zionism gets conflated with anti-Semitism by those protesting Israel’s policies, and they use the same symbolism and memes that rabidly racist anti-Semites have used in the past (just like you do.) As such, it leaves the realm of protected free speech and turns into hate speech.
For example, the report contained a description of an incident I remember personally, since it happened in my back yard, as it were:
Before you say that I’m brainwashed by the “zionist Media”, I knew people who were there at SF State. It was so bad the cops were called in and the campus shut down. I work at UC Berkeley, and that kind of crap happens on a regular basis. I see it with my own eyes. So who am I supposed to believe? You, or my lying eyes?
But I suppose you’ll just tell me that it’s all motivated by justifiable outrage and vengence, like the suicide bombers, so it’s all OK.
Boloney. There are trying to use a few incidents of antisemitic gestures in the context of well deserved criticism of Israel to generalize them into a principle. Nothing is more obvious. Hence, the appearance of Jewish Voice for Peace to condemn it.
You have likewise been shown the checklist of antiSemitism, the pdf file, that a JVC official constructed for an EU organization. JVC is one of the most rabid right wing Zionist organizations in America, with perhaps only ZOA exceeding them along with AIPAC and a few others, who take the Likud line on the solution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
You are really operating way out of loop, apparently taking as you knowledge base what you get from the American press.
Nothing in anything you’ve linked to has anything from a “JVC”, whatever that is. Try again.
Those “incidents” as you call them are the very reason you get so little sympathy from anyone not already convinced to follow you. You preach only to the choir.
You’re obviously not interested in convincing anyone. You’re interested in ranting to hear your own voice, to feel that warm, masochistic lash of being among the “oppressed”.
Here’s a hint: insulting people and calling them stupid doesn’t gather allies, no matter if you’re right or wrong. Learn that and you might get somewhere.
“same symbolism and memes that rabidly racist anti-Semites”
You said I use the same…. Please link to or repeat what those might be.
And you are correct AJC is not the JVC, and interesting visual reversal.
And I don’t think ignorance represents stupidity. But incessant harping on notions that criticism of Israel is antiSemitic, a repetition of old right wing Israeli propaganda, is likewise not going to lead to many sympathetic ears.
“Zionist Occupied”. It’s the name of this thread, for dog’s sake!
Once again, here is the link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_Occupation_Government
Did you bother to read it?
In fact, here’s one from the rabidly racist neo-Nazi website, “Skrewdriver”:
http://www.skrewdriver.net/zog.html
Go look at that disgusting website and decide if you want to paint Daily Kos with the same rhetorical brush as those people use. It’s that simple.
Please quote or link to where I said that criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. In fact, I do believe I accused the Israeli government of (quote] “horrible atrocities” (unquote). Does that qualify as criticism?
The problem you have with me is that I also accuse radical Palestinian factions like Hamas of horrible atrocities. You don’t think that’s fair. You think we should “understand” their need for blood vengeance and turn a blind eye to it, or at most cluck our tongues “tsk tsk” and say, “well, they did kill a bus full of innocent children, but that’s forgivable under the circumstances.”
No. It is not forgivable, under any circumstances. And that’s where you and I differ.
Joe you are here to plow over the same old dirt that supporters of right wing Zionism have gone over for years.
Hamas? You must certainly know that Hamas developed during the first Intifada to fight, what? The MILITARY OCCUPATION OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, going on now for 40 years while Israel has been slowly colonizing their land, through house demolitions, olive grove descruction, and the destruction of farmlands. The ethnic cleansing started in 1948 continues, with roughly 90,000 Palestinians in the West Bank leaving every year because they are not allowed to subsist.
And as for atrocities, if you believe that Israel has not also committed atrocities, and committed them FIRST, which instigated the suicide bombings during the second Initfada. Read these facts for a starter:
Alison Weir, in her documentary Off the Charts, noted the following:
Before a single suicide bomber had entered Israel after the start of the Second Intifada, sometimes called, after Sharon’s provocative visit to the Temple Mount, the al Aqsa Intifada, during its first month, 27 Palestinian children had been killed by Israeli Defense Forces in the West Bank and Gaza, the youngest only four months of age, and the majority due to gunshots to the head. Numerous children were also wounded. In the first three months alone, 159 children lost an eye presumably to rubber bullets shot from IDF rifles. Clearly the IDF were intentionally targeting these children, aiming at their heads with either rubber bullets or real bullets in the case of the child kills. We are talking here about a trained, mechanized army versus civilians, children participating in the intifada, the nonviolent resistance instituted by child and teenage Palestinian boys and girls. Oh, yes. Let’s be fair. We did hear that an Israeli soldier lost his eye from a rock thrown by a Palestinian boy from a pretty IDF spokeswoman, but it was the only such incident reported in three years.
In addition to these children, many more innocent adult civilians were killed, in the month before suicide bombings commenced. If terrorism is the intentional killing of civilians, then clearly, Israel’s armed forces were deep into terrorism, state sponsored terrorism, long before the Palestinians engaged in it to any degree. As a people fighting a military occupation, it would seem that the ultimate cause of all of these horrors on both sides rests with Israel and the purpose for which it continued its long occupation, the stealing of more Palestinian lands.
See Alison Weir’s short documentary, Off The Charts: Media Bias and Censorship in America for the names, ages, places, and dates of these child killings.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5600677940569035557&q=Alternate+Focus
To be accurate, there were sporadic bombing incidents engineered by Hamas extremists in Israel during the Oslo period. None at all occurred between 1998 and 2000. But the strong resumption of attacks after 2000, over fifty in the first year, was directly related to civilian and child killings by IDF, and it was not just Hamas, but Islamic Jihad and other Fatah associated organizations that were involved.
This Time.com article apprises of what motivated them:
“Until recently most Palestinians believed they had alternatives to the kind of militancy practiced by Hamas. For years after the 1993 Oslo peace accord, which brought limited self-rule to the Palestinians and the prospect of an independent state, polls showed a strong majority of Palestinians supporting the peace process with Israel and only a minority endorsing suicide bombings. Thus, in their headhunting, the fundamentalists were limited to stalwart followers of their doctrine, which holds that any kind of peace with Israel is anathema. Even then, Hamas and Islamic Jihad had to cajole–some might say brainwash–young men into believing that the rewards of paradise outweighed the prospects of life on earth.
But with the breakdown of the peace process in the summer of 2000 and the start of the latest intifadeh that September, the martyr wannabes started coming to Hamas–and they didn’t require persuading. “We don’t need to make a big effort, as we used to do in the past,” Abdel Aziz Rantisi, one of Hamas’ senior leaders, told TIME last week. The TV news does that work for them. “When you see the funerals, the killing of Palestinian civilians, the feelings inside the Palestinians become very strong,” he explained.”
From the mouth of Rantisi, but it also motivated Fatah supporters, to exact revenge for the killing of Palestinian civilians. Revenge is not a formal use of terrorism. See Alison Weir’s film, Off The Charts, at Google Video.
This commentary is from an article by Rami Khouri, editor of the Beirut newspaper, The Daily Star, which cynically denounced Olmert’s statements professing concern for the well-being of Palestinian children:
(Ehud Olmert’s Profound Ethics and Deep Lies)
http://www.ramikhouri.com/
For anyone interested in the facts about the impact of Israeli policies on Palestinian children, a good place to start is the carefully checked data disseminated by the Palestinian Nongovernmental Organization Network (www.palestinemonitor.org). Their data is compiled and verified on the ground by the Ramallah-based Health Development Information and Policy Institute, which has been honored by the World Health Organization for its work in promoting Palestinian health needs. So these people know what they are talking about when it comes to health conditions on the ground in Israeli-occupied Palestine. Some of the facts they provide are as follows.
In just the first two years of the second intifada, from September 2000 to November 2002:
The Israeli army killing of Palestinian children continues apace. In its annual report May 16, the respected global human rights organization Amnesty International accused the Israeli army of killing 190 Palestinians, including 50 children, last year (2005).
For your further information, between 2000 and 2006, Israeli armed forces and settlers killed over 800 Palestinian children, and over 4000 total human beings, of which 80% were civilians. It just shows you what US F16s, Apache helicopters, artillary shelling, tanks, and random firing of rifles by IDF soldiers, all into Palestinian neighborhoods. In fact, a IDF bulldozer operator acknowledged that he knocked down 50 houses in Jenin with the “people still in them.”
So give everyone a break about atrocities when you selectively attribute them to Hamas. State terrorism has killed many more innocent people in this conflict.
Here is some commentary from Jonathan Cook on a grandmother suicide bomber, which gives you some insight into what a terrorist feels like:
If one thing offers a terrifying glimpse of where the experiment in human despair that is Gaza under Israeli siege is leading, it is the news that a Palestinian woman in her sixties — a grandmother — chose last week to strap on a suicide belt and explode herself next to a group of Israeli soldiers invading her refugee camp.
Despite the “Man bites dog” news value of the story, most of the Israeli media played down the incident. Not surprisingly — it is difficult to portray Fatma al-Najar as a crazed fanatic bent only the destruction of Israel.
It is equally difficult not to pause and wonder at the reasons for her suicide mission; according to her family, one of her grandsons was killed by the Israeli army, another is in a wheelchair after his leg had to be amputated, and her house had been demolished.
Or not to think of the years of trauma she and her family have suffered living in a open-air prison under brutal occupation, and now, since the “disengagement”, the agonising months of grinding poverty, slow starvation, repeated aerial bombardments, and the loss of essentials like water and electricity.
Or not to ponder at what it must have been like for her to spend every day under a cloud of fear, to be powerless against a largely unseen and malign force, and to never know when death and mutilation might strike her or her loved ones.
Or not to imagine that she had been longing for the moment when the soldiers who have been destroying her family’s lives might show themselves briefly, coming close enough that she could see and touch them, and wreak her revenge.
Yet Western observers, and the organizations that should represent the very best of their Enlightenment values, seem incapable of understanding what might drive a grandmother to become a suicide bomber. Their empathy fails them, and so does their humanity.
Just at the moment Fatma was choosing death and resistance over powerlessness and victimhood — and at a time when Gaza is struggling through one of the most oppressive and ugly periods of Israeli occupation in nearly four decades — Human Rights Watch published its latest statement on the conflict. It is document that shames the organization, complacent Western societies and Fatma’s memory.
No apologies please. This has been a horrific conflict on both sides, all caused by an incessant and illegal military occupation.
And PS: we do not differ. My difference concerns who and what is the ultimate cause of these atrocities, the military occupation/colonization being pursued by Israel. You seem reluctant to comment on that point.
These incidents are not protests about Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians, which also go on all the time and constitutes legitimate criticism of Israel, that has nothing to do with antiSemitic content. The Civil Rights Commission report, by including only right wing Zionist supporters, denied the Commission information that could have balanced or even nullified their false impressions. Obviously, the Bush administration Civil Rights Commission is not interested in balance or truth.
I have already had some experience with your eyes and they seem especially tuned into turning away from the brutality of Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians, the confiscation of their lands since 1948, their killing, and all the rest, those kind of things that inspire genuine protests on college campuses. Unfortunately, Israel has done a lousy job at American universities and colleges, where it is considerably more difficult to hide the reality.
One of those diaries is a snarky sneer at the Pro-Israelis who had been talking about me on various posts making allegations and referring to things like “the autoban”. Others remarked how getting a comment hidden would gain the attention of the site admins. These are semi veiled threats.