Promoted by Steven D. I ended my contributions to MoveOn after 2004 because I felt they had become less a progressive organization than just another promoter of the Democratic Party. I want progressives to be pushing the Dems to do the right thing, not enabling them to do the wrong thing for “tactical” reasons.
Just got this wretch-inducing appeal from wasted lives & quagmire enabler MoveOn (emphasis added and repeated requests for YKos donations deleted):
(cont.)
From: “Eli Pariser, MoveOn.org Political Action”
To: “fairleft”
Subject: Big progressive conference in Chicago — want to come?
Dear MoveOn member,
We wanted to invite you to join fellow progressive activists, bloggers, leaders, and writers at the second annual Yearly Kos convention this August in Chicago.
MoveOn is co-sponsoring this weekend of thinking about people-powered politics and Internet-driven activism. MoveOn staff will be there along with major bloggers, leaders of top progressive organizations, and progressive media outlets. There will also be a presidential candidates forum — John Edwards, Barack Obama, and Bill Richardson have already accepted.
… Want to join us at the Yearly Kos convention in Chicago from August 2nd to 5th? …
The best reason to come isn’t the big names–it’s the chance to connect with thousands of other folks working across the country to build a more progressive America. …
We hope we’ll see you there.
Sincerely,
–Eli Pariser, Executive Director
Thursday, May 31, 2007
Okay, barring the cognitive dissonance of seeing three mainstream Democratic Presidential candidates so close to a word they run like jackrabbits from, you just have to say, WOW, talk about PROGRESSIVE (I mean “PROGRESSIVE”), that sure must be some sort of progressive, “people-powered” event gonna take place in Chicago! Except, well we know about MoveOn and DailyKos (and (seems to me) YearlyKos): they’re Democratic Party front organizations. That ain’t progressive, it’s more like:
Let’s get ourselves elected with Dkos yokels’ volunteering and money. It won’t cost us any ‘real player’ support, cuz these chumps never demand a thing!
MoveOn ain’t progressive. Just one story will tell you what they’re really about, because in March Eli Pariser and MoveOn were at their Iraq-quagmire-enabling, Democratic-Party-leadership-faithful, tell-ya-all-ya-need-to-know worst, as told by David Swanson of AfterDowningStreet: MoveOn.org Versus Its Members
True Majority was a late addition to the list [of organizations in favor of Rep. Barbara Lee’s fund an Iraq withdrawal bill]. The organization polled its members. Did they favor the Pelosi bill to fund the war but include various toothless restrictions on it, or did they favor the Lee plan to use the power of the purse to end the war by the end of the year? Needless to say, True Majority’s membership favored the Lee plan.
MoveOn polled its membership without including the Lee alternative, offering a choice of only Pelosi’s plan or nothing. Amazingly, Eli Pariser of MoveOn has admitted that the reason MoveOn did this was because they knew that their members would favor the Lee amendment.
In fact, writes Swanson, the point of MoveOn’s two-choices-only poll …
… was to allow MoveOn to announce that its membership supported Pelosi rather than Lee. Yet Pariser admits that he did not offer MoveOn’s membership a choice of Lee’s plan because he knew they would vote for it. …
Actually, [Pariser] doesn’t say that he knows Lee’s plan would have won out over Pelosi’s. But he certainly does not know that it wouldn’t have, and making that baseless and to my mind very unlikely claim was the only possible point of having done the poll. The rationale that Pariser offers is absurd. The poll could only have had one result. It served to give cover to progressive Democrats in Congress who gave their support to Pelosi after having intended to vote no on Pelosi’s bill unless it included Lee’s amendment.
[Pariser] didn’t let them make the supposed mistake of backing Lee rather than Pelosi, because Lee supposedly could never pass, while Pelosi could.
In addition to “the extreme arrogance and dishonesty,” Swanson adds two more reasons why Pariser and MoveOn’s decision to back Pelosi and not Lee was the opposite of antiwar strategy:
…as Bob Fertik has pointed out, even if Lee’s amendment did not pass, a vote for it would have helped to build war opposition in Congress, Pelosi’s bill could have still passed too, and other amendments could still have been denied a vote.
[Secondly,] we have no proof that Lee’s amendment could not have been passed. A third of the Democrats have taken similar positions. The leadership could have brought another third on board. And relentless pressure and threats and bribes of the sort aimed at progressives could have brought many of the right-wing Democrats along. And if it had failed, and the Republicans and Republican-lite Democrats had voted down the bill, it would have been clear who stood where, and Pelosi could have announced victory and the end of the war. The Pentagon has more than enough money to safely bring our troops home right away without Congress passing any bill at all.
All of MoveOn and the Democratic Leadership’s maneuvering in April and May was more of this b.s., and we finally ended up — is it where they wanted us to be? — with a fully funded occupation ($95 Billion is funding for 9 months, not 4, by the way). And, reacting after the nasty May 24 deal (not pro-acting; he and his frontpage didn’t say/do diddly when the deal was in play and might’ve been stopped (and neither did MoveOn)), Markos Moulitsas counsels patience (and please don’t put your chump change under the mattress!).
Speaking of that repeated ad infinitum `progressive’, YearlyKos let’s you know it doesn’t mean a damn thing. Here’s the YearlyKos website:
YearlyKos uses the term “progressive” to describe the common values held by most Americans, rather than as a reference to any political or partisan agenda.
Here’s more on the (insider) people-powered ‘movement’ of which YearlyKos is a part and over which Daily Kos is a leader/minder:
… the Netroots is made up of individuals — not corporations, not lobbyist groups, not any large money-infused machine that (currently) influences all that occurs inside the beltway. The most-visited blog of this movement is Daily Kos, founded in 2002 by MarKOS Moulitsas.
And finally, here’s Markos on his anti-ideology, and that means you, progressives:
The battle for the party is not an ideological battle. It’s one between establishment and anti-establishment factions.
Like I said, we give `em our money and demand nothing in return. And that’s about all we’ve gotten. Can we at least ask for more from the blog we regularly post at? Can we at least ask more from a MoveOn that lives on its obsession with being seen as ‘progressive’?
By the way, if you want to know what a progressive Democrat looks like, definitely check out Bob Fertik at democrats. com. He’s trying to rustle up primary challenges to the Cheney Democrats who just voted more funds for the occupation. For example, wouldn’t it be ‘progressive’ to see this on the DailyKos frontpage: “Bush Democrats” Answer Primary Challenges with Lies and Stupidity
Thanks, and if you like it even more, please recommend this puppy.
tonight in San Francisco…and have to say that Yearlykos Las Vegas was where I met BooMan and many other amazing BooTribbers among many other folks from what we might call the broad “netroots/grassroots” left.
Personally, while I support the sentiment of holding Congressional and netroots Democrats accountable, I think the purist, divisive “progressive” attitude expressed in this post is counter-productive.
ie. Casting aspersions on Yearlykos, Markos and MoveOn instead of engaging and debating and showing up is not a strategy I agree with.
That’s of course, just my opinion.
I’ll be at the Yearlykos fundraiser tonight and at Yearlykos in Chicago and hope that any fellow BooTribbers who choose to attend those events feel free to step up and say hello.
Getting to know each other and building bridges is an important way to build political alliances.
Yearlykos is, after all, how I met Booman and MaryB and CabinGirl and Malacandra and many, many others you’d know from this site.
I think the purist, divisive “progressive” attitude expressed in this post is counter-productive.
I’m a purist about some issues — I call it having integrity.
That’s , of course, just my opinion.
I’m not questioning your integrity, but, if I am reading this right, you are questioning mine.
Maybe you can spell out exactly how and where I don’t have integrity for me?
I have no idea whether you have integrity or not. I do know it is common for people who believe in their principles to be derided as Kos. And since you launched the term “purity,” I have little doubt that you know exactly what I’m talking about.
I know you have integrity. That is why I am going to post this explanation. I do not speak for Kahli, but I do speak for myself. To give you a face to the name, we met last year at Bremerton Musician’s Thanksgiving Dinner. I really liked you and I do not mean the following as a challenge. Only as an explanation of what I got out of Kahli’s post. I mean it in the utmost of respect.
For me, I could not support DKos after the pie wars. First there were the bannings for talking about election fraud. That really tickled my nerves. BooMan started the Tribune as a result. But, still, DKos was the site that turned me onto progressive discourse. I was disgusted, but I stayed. At the same time, we also learned that we could not discuss 9/11 unless we were taking the dominant viewpoint. More people were banned and I was starting to get the focus of the group, much to my dismay. After more bannings, came the pie wars. When Kos told me to leave and let the door hit me on the way out and people cheered, I left.
I was never a big poster there, but it became a matter of integrity not to return. Kos crossed the line for me. I cannot support someone who calls women’s equality a special interest. I cannot support a man who would sell out 50% of the population for political advantage. It just crossed the line for me.
Many, many more have followed after those of us who migrated to BooMan. Some just got disgusted, some were banned, of the latter, some were banned for being too pro-palestine, or too election fraud, or too foul-mouthed, or too whatever the “leaders” said they were that day.
There is sadly, a huge contingent of very liberal, very active, very vocal people who have been silenced by Kos, or who have found it a challenge to their integrity to post there.
This leads to the diary in question. Kos is advertising himself as a progressive website (while disclaiming that he is a progressive) and he is actively banning the most progressive voices there. It becomes a matter of integrity. It becomes a matter of saying no matter how big the audience, it is not worth it to my soul to support an obvious hypocrite. By posting on 5 websites, chances are you will still reach the most active core that you would on Kos. It is more work, it is less visible, but you won’t be supporting a site that has a less than pretty track record when it comes to progressive ideals. That is integrity.
All that said, we each have our own boiling point. BooMan and MLW continue to get people everyday who are just fed up with Kos and the KosKops. You haven’t reached your’s yet, so it is not a matter of integrity for you yet. If it comes to that point for you, I know you will understand the integrity point. You haven’t hit the tipping point yet. You may or may not.
It is not about what we think your integrity should be, but what it would take for you to feel what crosses your integrity line. It may not be women’s rights, or election integrity, or the Palestine issue, or disparagement of protesters, but he crosses so many lines, that eventually he might hit one of your nerves. He certainly did mine. If you come to that point, we will be here for you. We try not to dredge up the whole Kos alienation we feel, but it does come out, often when new people just need to vent their pain and frustration.
I do not feel that I can support a website that has behaved in such bad ways. When one posts there, one is supporting their ways, and I cannot. It is a matter of integrity. I support the proponents of election fraud, women’s equality, and have a sympathetic view of Palestine, and place a great value of freedom of speech. I don’t see that there, so it is matter of staying true to my beliefs. Supporting Kos is supporting ideas and behaviors and intolerance that I just simply can’t support. It is a matter of integrity.
I am hoping this helps you understand why you see bitterness here and why we tolerate such bitterness. There are many Kos refugees here and while we come for many reasons, our stories overlap.
Hugs, and please send your parents my best regards.
I looked all over for a “10” to rate your comment, finding none, I gave you what I could. Well done!
for what we give, both to the Democrats and to the big orange blog (actually I’m banned and am not allowed to contribute diaries there).
And that thing was a strong, timely, and smart effort against funding the Iraq war. Not that it would’ve been successful, the numbers apparently weren’t there, but at least by now we could’ve known the sincere ‘out’ people from the fakes.
No one (especially those campaigning as (ostensibly) antiwar, like Obama) was asked to take a stand (when it mattered!) and then hammered for not doing so. No one was threatened (when it mattered!) — even ‘abstractly’ — with consequences for caving in. In short, none of the high and mighty was put out in the slightest by the “number 1 progressive Democrat blog.”
And since I mentioned Obama, perhaps someone on the frontpage could’ve pointed out to Edwards that two weeks in advance of the vote deciding to have a protest immediately after the impending cave in: so dumb, so almost deliberately ineffectual.
KO, my beef is more with MoveOn than with Yearly Kos. MoveOn could have been a force to hold the Dems feet to the fire and make them live up to their rhetoric and campaign promises. Instead they have chosen to be just another arm of the Dem electoral machine. That’s what upsets me the most.
As for where people choose to spread their message, that is up to each individual, and I begrudge no one their own choice in that matter. However, after the Kathy Sierra fiasco, I no longer felt posting at DKos was a proper use of my time, for the reasons I’ve already mentioned in several other past comments here. That was my decision, but I don’t judge anyone else for coming to a different one.
They could have been a force to move the Overton Window hard left and away from the center-right discourse that predominates in our current politcal climate.
Wish I could go. Perhaps I can decide to closer to the YearlyKos, if money comes in in time
This diary reminds me as progressive politics often does of Howard Deans comment to “Never let the perfect be the enemy of the good.”
It is not really in our best interest to think of our “imperfect” allies as more of an enemy that the people who oppose everything we try to accomplish. We can fight for our priciples without sacrificing our ability to get done what we can get done.
and you can find me on Dailykos almost daily. That site is, to a large extent, what you make it. Get the voice of the left heard over there. It can happen.
is far more important than the quality of the microphone.
I no longer visit the Orange Frat house. I don’t like the atmosphere. Why bang your head against th wall, why not go where the atmosphere it more congenial.
I’m shocked and depressed at the more or less intentional destruction of the P side of the I/P diaries, and the protection if not official approval/connections of the I trolls.
Unless you are a feminist.
and progressives, and i do not begrudge them their choices in where they blog.
that being said, however, i got tired of blogging at dkos a full year before amnesty day, and amnesty day just put the final nail in the coffin of why skippy chooses to blog at boomand and my left wing instead the with the wonderful wizard of kos.
as to the point of the diary, i became dissatisfied with moveon two years ago when they sent out an email asking everyone to buy their recently released book (i believe it was 50 ways to be progressive or something like that) to make it get from the #2 spot to the #1 spot on the best seller list.
the thing is, the #1 book on the best seller list was the richard clarke book. it seemed to me that cheerleading against a book that was on our side was self-serving.
so i take moveon.org w/a grain of salt.
i don’t take dkos at all.
and so is kid oakland. My beef is with the frontpagers and their caution. They could be a real force if they came on strong at strategic moments.
One of those moments passed without action or much notice between May 16 and 20. And then that made the big outpouring of whining May 21 to 24 was doubly irritating.
I think you attending Yearly Kos is probably a worthwhile use of your time. I’m not sure it would be a good use of mine, however, considering how I feel about the course that the DKos blog and Markos have taken over the past 2 years. I posted enough election fraud diaries at DK to have been attacked unfairly as a conspiracy theorist and “troll,” and anytime you post any diary critical of the democrats individually or as a group (with certain exceptions such as Lieberman) it always seems like there is a crowd of people who gather to attack you for being a “purity troll” or what have you. The name calling and back biting and so forth wears on you after a while.
yup- gotta luv it. nothing like a little intra arguing!
Wel- I gotta tellya folks, if the dems are going to support such positions as supporting the latest supplimental and not including cong Lees’ proposal then the big move is just gonna end up being a big bowel movement! I’m pissed as is and what I am seeing is goopers and gooper lites and that just ain’t gonna happen for me and I believe alot of others.
I don’t give a shit about yearly get togethers or other internal garbage. I care about a party that shows balls enuf to just call these bastards. Nobody has yet to give me an explanation for supporting the sup. And don’t tell me that the troops needed the money.
Anyhow- enuf with the bull Lets pin these bastards like we pin bugs in a display. The proof is there.
billjpa
Online communities are inhearently top-down. Those who control the site or the mailing list can manipulate it within very broad limits. The community has a collective voice, it is not like the right wing where you have people who like to refer to themselves as ditto heads. Even so, online communities are inhearently top-down. Less so than broadcasting, but top-down nevertheless.
Where there’s competition, options to go elsewhere with our content, then there’s a bottom-up element too. Big blogs like kos should receive some of bottom-up pressure to be more progressive, smarter, and more proactive and timely.
I wrote near daily diaries here, and over at myleftwing and mydd, souting from May 16 about the impending supplemental sell out. Publicizing and mobilizing against that was far more important than whatever the dailykos front page was doing in those days. After that standing down, they need some criticism and pressure to be a fighting and smarter progressive website.