Scooter Libby’s pardon begs the question of what he would have talked about had he been truly faced with prison. Whatever it was, it was important enough for Bush to grant Libby a last-second reprieve so he wouldn’t have to go to jail.
I thought back to something I had tripped upon a while ago, something that involved Libby, which happened on September 10, 2001, the day before the twin towers were struck.
On the CNN site, in a timeline available from this page, I found this stunning entry:
SEPTEMBER 10, 2001 A CIA plan to strike at al Qaeda in Afghanistan, including support for the anti-Taliban Northern Alliance, is given to the White House. Sen. Dianne Feinstein asks for a meeting with Vice President Dick Cheney. The California Democrat is told that Cheney’s staff would need six months to prepare for a meeting.
When I read this, I was stunned on two levels.
First, read that again. The CIA was going to do BEFORE 9/11 exactly what it did AFTER 9/11 – strike at al Qaeda in Afghanistan. Since we hadn’t been attacked yet, 9/11 provided a nifty justification for this plan.
But second, Feinstein is a member of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, a group that works closely with intelligence agencies and–ostensibly–provides oversight of intelligence activities. (I say ostensibly because the committee does not know of, and therefore has no option to approve or disapprove all intelligence activities). How could it be that, as the 9/11 Commission report states, when the “system was blinking red” on a possible terrorist attack on the country, and ranking member of the Senate Intelligence Committee comes to say hey, something serious is afoot and we need to talk, the VP’s office could blow off Feinstein by saying they couldn’t review her plans for six months?
Curious, I called Senator Feinstein’s office and asked, is it normal for the VP to blow off a meeting with Senator Feinstein for six months? The four people I spoke to in her office all said and did the same thing. They said no, that’s not usual, what is this about? I said this is about the Senator’s 9/10 visit to Cheney, the day before 9/11. At this, each staffer got nervous and transferred me to the next person. None of them would even confirm that this conversation had transpired, but in the end, I found it on a press release on Feinstein’s senate site:
I was deeply concerned as to whether our house was in order to prevent a terrorist attack. My work on the Intelligence Committee and as chair of the Technology and Terrorism Subcommittee had given me a sense of foreboding for some time. I had no specific data leading to a possible attack.
In fact, I was so concerned that I contacted Vice President Cheney’s office that same month to urge that he restructure our counter-terrorism and homeland defense programs to ensure better accountability and prevent important intelligence information from slipping through the cracks.
Despite repeated efforts by myself and staff, the White House did not address my request. I followed this up last September 2001 before the attacks and was told by ‘Scooter’ Libby that it might be another six months before he would be able to review the material. I told him I did not believe we had six months to wait.
This just begs the question. Did Scooter Libby know what was going to happen? Did he know just how busy they really would be over the next six months due to the coming attack the next day? It’s hard not to see that as a possibility.
I was particularly interested that it was I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby who put Feinstein off. Libby was one of the co-signers to the seminal document, “Rebuilding America’s Defenses,” from the Project for a New American Century (PNAC). In contrast to JFK’s call that we seek a true peaceful co-existence with other countries, rather than a “pax Americana,” the PNAC report calls for just that – ensuring a pax Americana. This is the same report that said,
…the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor.
That quote gave rise to the notion that perhaps 9/11 was made or allowed to happen by the government as an excuse to get us back into a war. We know now that the administration tried hard to make that war one in Iraq, despite the fact that no evidence from 9/11 linked Iraq to the attack in any way. And the CIA already had plans to strike Afghanistan (as the CNN site showed) so instead we made a great show of taking down the Taliban, even as we let Osama Bin Laden slip through our fingers at Tora Bora.
We had pinpointed OBL’s location by radio. We could absolutely have picked him up. Several friends of mine in the black ops world have told me repeatedly that we’ve known were OBL was at all times. A man in Hollywood was approached by a CIA operative to do a documentary of the secret tailing of OBL. So it’s not like we can’t find him.
And if we weren’t picking him up, why? Could it be because ties between his actions and those of our intelligence community might raise disturbing questions about 9/11? An intelligence asset told me of a friend of his that had just come back from handing OBL a wad of cash. “For attacking us, or so he wouldn’t attack us again,” I asked, but got (predictably) no response.
We know now too that not only were there no weapons of mass destruction (WMD) in Iraq, but, as the Downing Street Memo tells us, that Team Bush knew there were no weapons, and were deliberately falsifying intelligence to justify an attack on Iraq anyway.
When Ambassador Joe Wilson tried to tell us intelligence was being falsified to justify the march to Iraq, what happened? Scooter Libby talked to Judith Miller of the New York Times about the fact that Valerie Plame, Wilson’s wife, was a covert CIA operative. Six days later, Robert Novak reveals this fact in a column that essentially broke the law by revealing the identity of a covert source.
I believe that Libby’s blowing off of Feinstein on the 10th should be investigated. Why did he tell her it would be six months before they could review her proposal when such a timeframe was utterly out of keeping re a request from a high profile Senator to the Vice President? I can’t help but wonder if the pardon is intended, in part, to keep Libby silent on that point.
You know what’s odd is we had pinpointed OBL by radio. From my little knowledge of military radio communications, the person carry & communicating by radio has the most dangerous job, because the source of the radio signals is a frequent target of your enemy.
Makes you wonder why OBL could use a radio and live to see another day.
Here’s a source re the pinpointing of bin Laden, although this report does not mention how he was found:
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/10/23/113806.shtml
Lisa would you mind looking into this:
http://xymphora.blogspot.com/2006/10/able-danger-whitewash-attempt.html
Very interesting. I also recommend looking at John Newman’s testimony a while back in which he shows how the guy who paid the hijackers may well have been a triple agent working for Pakistani and British and/or American intelligence while serving as an al Qaeda leader. And of course, the Pakistani intelligence service was built by the CIA, just as the British helped teach the CIA how to conduct operations and investigations. It’s an incestuous brew, and begs serious questions re our ultimate culpability. See a transcript of Newman’s remarks here. John Newman is a former NSA intelligence analyst and a history professor. His work on the JFK case has been extremely valuable (see his book “Oswald and the CIA” for just how much the CIA knew about Oswald before the Kennedy assassination. Indeed, he makes a strong case that they were moving Oswald around like a pawn on a chess board. Invaluable research.)
paints a complex and confusing picture, consistent however with a bunch of Al Qaida folks set up as a front to take the blame for 9/11. (OBL could not be linked by the FBI to 9/11 and never took responsibility, Atta phoned with his father in Egypt the day after 9/11 and a majority of the hijackers was found alive after 9/11 by the BBC, while Atta’s passport was found without a scratch in the Ground Zero rubble. Also, none of the hijackers was on the passenger lists of the planes)
But Newman shows that the money man was apparently a triple agent, which begs the question of who really instigated the plot, and does not rule out American or British or Pakistani intelligence (the ISI), and implies a coalition of all three, which would certainly make more interesting the fact that the ISI’s leader was in DC on 9/11….
and it was used for smoke and mirrors and to put us off track. The real work (and much more $$$) went into the logistics of having the US military stand down just the right way, hitting the Pentagon with a missile without creating suspicion and above all taking down WTC1,2&7 by controlled demolition, while giving the impression that plane impacts were the cause.
As Lisa well knows, the true enemy of good conspiracy theory is bad conspiracy theory, which is often sponsored by the very people that seek to cover up their crimes.
I’d like a real report on what caused the collapse of WTC7. But I’m not leaping from that curiosity to the conclusion that WTC1 and WTC2 were brought down on purpose. And please let the goddamn Pentagon plane theory go. It’s the stupidest fucking conspiracy theory ever.
What else did you get wrong?
The reason the hijackers were not on the passenger lists that were published was out of respect for the dead, not because they were not on the manifests.
It wasn’t Atta’s passport.
Atta’s father claimed his son was alive, but offered no proof.
The explanation for the hijackers names is probably because they used aliases and aliases of Muslims that had taken pilot training in Pensacola and other places.
Thanks, Booman. That’s how I feel too.
I believe a plane hit the Pentagon.
I don’t know what to make re the Towers’ rapid collapse, but lacking any scientific background in that area, currently defer to the majority scientific opinion.
I know a guy who worked in the Towers who claimed he heard something blow up in the basement of the tower. But if that were structural, he would not have lived to tell me the story.
I do think that following the official story actually produces the best leads for a conspiracy theory that diverges from the government’s conspiracy theory in important ways.
WTC #1 and #2. The certainly LOOK like controlled demolitions, and there is other evidence (molten steel puddles) to suggest they were, BUT they were an exotic design unlike other (shorter) skyscrapers, so there is room for doubt. And then the evidence (steel wreckage) was promptly shipped to China and destroyed, which takes care of that, though it is suspicious in itself.
WTC #7 is of course a different matter. There is no room for doubt at all. It did what no steel skyscraper has ever done in history–nor since, viz the Madrid fire of 2004–that is, collapse subsequent to fire damage. Into its own footprint no less.
The further point is, that since we know that WTC #7 was not innocent, why should WTC #1 & #2 be? The burden of proof shifts.
As for the Pentagon, I don’t think WHAT flew into the Pentagon has much bearing on who planned the attacks. Of course, if you could prove it was a US missile that would settle the issue one way, but I don’t think it is possible to prove that.
Exactly. Since it’s not possible to prove that, why not look at the evidence that IS provable, like how the CIA had worked with al Qaeda in Kosovo, for example? Or how bin Laden was visited by a CIA agent in July (when he was in a hospital on dialysis)?
These are facts that interest me. I know from researching the JFK case that the towers and the planes are the distraction, not the story. The most that can ever do is prove conspiracy. But we already know it was a conspiracy – even the gov version is a conspiracy. So why not look into the official story and untangle those leads? It’s not entirely fiction, and where those threads lead could be the most damning of all.
Lisa, what a great article! Thank you for making what I have said behind the doors of privacy to certain friends, sound rational. I have been told I am wrong. But here you are saying the same thing I have said but did not have the proof to stand my words. Thanks so very much. many hugs..
Remember what Gandhi said, Brenda:
First they ignore you
Then they ridicule you
Then they fight you
Then you win.
We have a long ways to go. But it’s good your friends are not just ignoring you. That’s a step forward, seriously. Be patient with them. Those who are asleep don’t like being awoken by those who are aware. It’s challenging and painful. Be gentle with them.
.
My personal analysis a long time ago …
9/11 was pre-emptive strike on US ◊ by creve coeur
Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 02:51:30 PM PDT
"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."
Interesting thesis. If that were the case, it was a pretty unsuccessful pre-emptive strike though, given what followed.
I think our strike at the Taliban had a lot more to do with this proposed pipeline than with anything related to 9/11.
willingness to think outside conventions, Oui. Some things however are rock solid and beyond speculation. As a physicist considering just the physical evidence I have to conclude that 9/11 was an inside job: WTC1,2&7 were taken down by controlled demolition, something hit the Pentagon but not a Boeing. Everything else has to be consistent with that.
read this on ET
There seems to be a lot of Physicists there arguing that the controlled demolition theory is rubbish, on all of the buildings
WTC 7 went down in 6.5 secs vs 6 secs freefall.
5+ years later the George W. Bush administration’s NIST agency has been unable to say what happened.
This and more points to controlled demolition as the cause.
http://wtc7.net/
I’m sorry but it still sounds like bollocks to me, if you’re going to drop a building with high explosives there are going to be a lot of very loud bangs which would have been very noticable, and just didn’t happen.
If you want to claim thermiteyou would have to chop a selection of holes in the floor to get at the junctions of the structural beams, otherwise you’re suggesting that it was all in place for years before hand with noone knowing
is there an ammount of time more than six seconds that the building should have spent in falling down?
You are one of only a few points of factual light on the largely darkened board of the internet. Please keep up the good research work, and may fate protect you.
AG
Thank you very much, Arthur. That’s a very serious compliment, and I appreciate that.
For whom do these “several friends” work?
Now Ed, you of all people here must know the answer to that question. If I told you…
thanks for researching this!
The distraction is the towers and the Pentagon. The real story is what was happening BEFORE 9/11, and how those plans played out in the wake of all that happened.
I wasn’t looking for that bit on Libby but it is pretty stunning – blowing off a senior member of the intelligence committee and saying it would be six months!
wonder if Bush himself was quite out of the loop as to what Cheney was up to. Hence his stricken, frightened, look on Sept 11.
Nothing would surprise me. But why should we have to speculate? THIS is what the 9/11 commission should have asked. This and so many other important questions.
The towers are a “distraction”? Distraction from what? Most of the people died when those towers were pulverized. Al Qaeda in Kosovo and like matters are public knowledge and can be explained away.
the theories that the towers were demolished with pre-planted explosives are a distraction from real questions about what happened.
They make anyone that questions the official line look like a loon.
Says who? Anybody that has seriously considered the issue and believes those towers were rapidly pulverized by the falling upper block, which is the only explanation given (by Bazant), is a loon. It’s nonsense. Bazant’s not a loon, but he’s writing nonsense.
I think why I think you view as “real” questions have been asked, generally in public and even as part of Kerry’s 2004 presidential election. to little effect. They are a distraction, and generally based on a false premise that Arabs hijacked planes.
Here’s something that really questions the official line, the videos “September Clues.” I think it’s true, and could care less what it makes people think about others that think they are questioning the official line but are really just reinforcing it.
http://www.livevideo.com/socialservice
I challenge you to watch all six parts with an open mind. I don’t agree with all of it, but the basic premise of faked broadcasts on 9/11 is more than amply supported.
What I meant was
“I think why I think you view as “real” questions have been asked”
Should be:
What I think you view as “real” questions have already been asked.
By the way, it’s not my intention to start posting
9/11 diaries here. I never did that at DKos, but was banned nevertheless for debating the demolition in commenting about it when I diagreed with something others said. This was right after getting trusted user status for the second, because I commented on a variety of topics and enough people liked what I said. I hope to comment on other matters here, though that is sometimes hard because so much of our public discourse is based on the false premise of 9/11.
By the way, I don’t know that preplanted explosives were used. I have no idea, and don’t care. The buildings were rapidly pulverized, and gravity does not explain it. That’s all that should matter to a prosecutor to start a real investigation.
Ouch. I do promise to edit my posts better.
Arabs speaking men were in the cockpits and passengers succeeded in making phone calls, some of which were recorded. There is no controversy that Arabs hijacked the planes. None.
What planes would those be? The ones in the demonstrably faked videos? Or are you not going to bother watching?
Let me ask you something. Here is an article from the Telegraph, linked from a lovely David Horowitze cite that takes it at face value.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/017261.php
The article says that a message of 45 Muslim doctors calling for attacks in the United States was found on a chat site of 3 people convicted in London of running a jihad site. The message was sent several years ago, but just announced at their trial, which fits English law on nondisclosure in criminal cases.
Should the message be assumed authentic?
I presume it was written in Arabic. Does that settle it?
Demonstrably faked videos?
Wow.
There is one known video of Flight 11 hitting the north tower. It was taken by a french documentary worker that was doing a film on the NYFD. It is not faked.
The second plane that hit the South Tower happened on live television and was captured by numerous cameras both private and corporate, not to mention eyewitnessed by tens of thousands.
The third plane was seen crashing into the Pentagon by countless witnesses, including one I know.
The fourth plane was seen crashing by many eyewitnesses in rural Pennsylvania.
There is zero legitimate question that the four planes crashed where and when they were alleged to have crashed. None.
Moreover, there is no question that Arab speaking men took over the cockpits and broadcast over open channels and that passengers called and reported (some of it taped both privately and by airlines) Arab looking hijackers.
Arab men hijacked the planes and crashed them into buildings. That is not in any legitimate dispute. None.
Who those people were, what their names were, who they were working for, who trained them, who financed them, what our government knew about them before hand…all of that is open to legitimate question.
But getting caught up in idiotic conspiracy theories about missiles and controlled demolitions just tars everyone that questions the details with the brush of brain-deadness.
I was awake and watching when the second plane hit the second tower. I also have friends in New York. This was real.
I also worked at Microsoft at the time, and heard that a team of Microsoft specialists had been asked to help examine the hard drives of the computers left behind by the hijackers. This wasn’t some news item or company announcement – this was personal knowledge from people who knew some directly involved in that effort.
I applaud skepticism re the official version. But I disdain adherence to ANY unproven theory, no matter whose side its on. We should be skeptical of ALL theories until the facts paint a clear picture. I think we’re easily 10 years from getting any kind of a clear picture. We need to see the files and testimony from the 9/11 commission before we can make any accurate assessments.
I do not think we will ever get a clear picture of 9/11.
If it was going to happen, and it was always doubtful, it required Kerry winning the election. Kerry was deep into Iran-Contra and BCCI and he knew better than any living American who the Octopus players were and how they operate.
My theory, based on Sibel Edmonds’ revelations, was that any foreknowledge would track back to a connection between Wallace Hilliard and the Octopus’s activities in either Azerbaijan or Turkey.
I was startled to find a tentative connection between Farhad Azima and Hilliard, because it was exactly what I set out to discover. But the connection was limited to them both being major stockholders in a non-airline related company.
Nonetheless, ANY connection was startling.
I believe Azima was using a cargo airline called Baku Express to smuggle weapons, heroin, and mujahideen from Afghanistan into Baku and then into Chechnya, Nagorno-Karabakh, Ostend Belgium (and into African civil wars from there).
And I believe Egyptian Islamic Jihad, led by Ayman Zawahiri, had a working relationship with him.
And I believe that people inside the State Dept. (including Clinton’s State Department) worked with these people in very unsavory ways, including in Albania, Kosovo, and the Bosnia/Serbian conflict.
I got a look into this business and I didn’t like what I saw. But I can’t prove a thing.
I am quite certain, though, that we’ll never know what went down. I do believe that some of the hijackers used identities of people that had been flight-training in military programs for civil and military Saudi aviation. That was probably for false flag purposes or just for fun and embarrassment.
.
… a report by American journalist Thomas Goltz, while describing how US citizens, who were involved in the ‘Iran-Contra’ affair whilst serving in the US Special Forces, brought mujaheddins to Azerbaijan while also training Azeri pilots in Texas for this mission.
David Kimche: Israel’s Leading Spy and Would-Be Mossad Chief
"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."
Right, and there is no evidence that I am aware of that Clinton authorized any of it. Prior to Clinton coming to office, Richard Secord, Heinie Aderholt, and Gary Best went to Azerbaijan and started this mess with a company called MEGA Oil. Azima is mixed up in it, too. Azima’s brother gave Ollie the plane he took to Tehran.
Obviously, you have not watched the September Clues series on faked videos.
“I was awake and watching when the second plane hit the second tower.”
If you were outside on the streets of New York or in Jersey watching, you would obviously be awake. I assume you mean you saw the second plane on television.
You having friends in New York shows what?
“I also worked at Microsoft at the time, and heard that a team of Microsoft specialists had been asked to help examine the hard drives of the computers left behind by the hijackers.”
“I applaud skepticism re the official version.”
I’m not seeking applause. I am asking for reasoned consideration of these videos.
“But I disdain adherence to ANY unproven theory, no matter whose side its on.”
As I said, I don’t seek your applause, nor do I care about your disdain. I am asserting that these videos make a very good case for faked videos. There is other evidence, including planted plane debris and other artifacts, and impossible crash physics, that lends support to the September Clues assertions, but those assertions stand on their own.
We are not 10 years from a clear picture. I am very troubled that you would say such a thing. The clear picture is in September Clues, as well as in the rapid pulverization of the towers. Both are grounds for a real investigation, now. Most importantly, these are facts that people must understand, now.
We don’t have 10 years. This situation is very dangerous. People need to understand how basically they were deceived, so that they are not deceived again.
Rick Santorum is the latest to hope for a terrorist event:
“between now and November, a lot of things are going to happen, and I believe that by this time next year, the American public’s going to have a very different view of this war, and it will be because, I think, of some unfortunate events, that like we’re seeing unfold in the UK.”
http://hughhewitt.townhall.com/Transcript_Page.aspx?ContentGuid=bd02aa0e-7953-414b-89ff-64db473685bc
“I also worked at Microsoft at the time, and heard that a team of Microsoft specialists had been asked to help examine the hard drives of the computers left behind by the hijackers.”
So those hard drives had to come from the hijackers? You are questioning the official story. Can’t you imagine a variety of scenarios under which most of the people involved, perhaps even the alleged hijackers themselves, would not realize what was really going on? The data would not even have to be fabricated.
The videos were crude fakes, aluminum planes don’t melt into buildings, and the buildings were rapidly pulverized in a way that gravity cannot explain. The game is over.
Why are people so resistant to looking at evidence that the media was integrally involved in 9/11?
“Demonstrably faked videos?
Wow.”
Have you watched September Clues? You might agree if you did.
His argument on the Naudet video is not as convincing, but he argues it is faked. The video is very blurry to begin with. The crash physics are impossible, as is the wheel of “Flight 11” that was found 1400 feet beyond the other side of the North Tower, on a trajectory that passed directly through the core of the North Tower and required the wheel to exit at over 100 mph, which even NIST could not explain.
So, yes, I think the Naudet video is faked. Are you friends with the Naudets?
Again, you can so there is no evidence for the next 10 years. I’m saying there is evidence, and its presented well in the Spetember Clues series.
I don’t think you have any understanding of the technologies and military doctrines and organizations that would make this feasible.
I discuss that a bit here:
http://ningens-blog.blogspot.com/2007/06/dangers-of-disinformation-in-war-on.html
But rather than read that, why not just watch September Clues?
By the way, you say that tens of thousands eyewitnessed the planes. You are just assuming that. This guy didn’t:
http://www.tgeneva.com/~davethom/
Read and look at the photos closely — he was in a position to see the plane and did not.
It’s not braindead, it’s not looney, and even if it were, your questions should stand on their own if valid.
I have watched all sorts of videos on 9/11 – some good, some bad, some absolutely ridiculous. This falls in the absolutely ridiculous category. I saw it happen live. I know people in New York who literally saw the plane fly into the building. I know people who worked in the building who felt the shudder of the impact.
You can make a case for anything being faked or altered. That doesn’t make it true, however.
You saw it on television. I sympathize. You, like me, were a victim of this lie.
Your unnamed friends saw something, what and from where we do not know.
Here are firemen that did not see or hear a plane, despite being positioned to do so:
http://ningens-blog.blogspot.com/2007/06/why-didnt-these-firefighters-see-or.html
There could have been an impact — that is separate. Missile, explosives, I don’t know.
it is the very definition of braindead.
I can’t even stoop so low as to respond to this coma logic.
I take this to mean you have not watched the videos. Cognitive dissonance. What amazes me is that progressives that are critical of the media won’t look at this evidence. Coma, indeed.
Why would I watch a video of someone pissing on my leg and telling me it’s raining?
What’s the point?
This is your website and I appreciate you letting me post here. This will be my last statement on the subject, unless you want to continue.
The question is, why would you not want to know if false images were broadcast on 9/11. I would want to know if there was even a 1% chance of that, because the implications are so serious. Unlike Cheney, I don’t think we should bomb Iran on the basis of a 1% risk. I’m just asking you to spend an hour viewing these videos. And view them all, because I am not convinced that Theresa Renaud is outright lying in the first part, but think the evidence as a whole is incontrovertible, especially when considering the lack of real evidence for planes and the presence of obviously faked evidence. People’s perceptions are affected by misinformation, and Renaud may only be embellishing and not lying.
I am not brain dead, nor am I afraid of mockery. I am intelligent and well-educated, am an attorney with the ability to evaluate evidence, and have considered these issues very carefully.
Do you want to know why?
Because theories like this have destroyed any real investigation.
Because one of the pilots went to my parents’ church.
Because my secretary (at the time) lost a friend.
Because a co-worker lost his brother.
Because the people that boarded those planes didn’t come back…they’re dead.
And I’m done discussing with you the idiotic theory that they did not die on those planes when they crashed into the WTC, Pentagon, and Pennsylvania field.
“Do you want to know why?” Yes.
“Because theories like this have destroyed any real investigation.”
That is an absolute lie. You are excusing the failure of the authorities to conduct a real investigation. Even the fraudulent 9/11 Commission didn’t happen for years, and “theories like this” had nothing to do with that stonewalling. Most of your line of theories were raised, and ignored.
“Because one of the pilots went to my parents’ church.”
Nothing I have said changes the fact that this pilot was murdered. This argument could be as well made against any questioning of the official story.
“Because my secretary (at the time) lost a friend.”
I am sorry about that. I have a friend who lost a college buddy. He did not want to hear any questioning of the official story back in 2002, when it was already obvious that we were being lied to.
“Because a co-worker lost his brother.”
Again, I am sorry, but nothing I am saying dishonors the victims, nor does it dishonor the heroism of the policemen and fireman that tried to save lives and give the dead a decent burial, and are suffering because of the government’s lies about air quality.
“Because the people that boarded those planes didn’t come back…they’re dead.”
They were murdered. Nothing I have said changes that. I don’t know what happened to them, other than that they were murdered. Allowing them to be murdered by Arab hijackers is just as heinous.
“And I’m done discussing with you the idiotic theory that they did not die on those planes when they crashed into the WTC, Pentagon, and Pennsylvania field.”
You are wrong, and you are standing in the way of a real investigation. Real History Lisa seems to have no problem with the truth coming out in ten years. We may not have that long.
You are right about one thing: “the true enemy of good conspiracy theory is bad conspiracy theory, which is often sponsored by the very people that seek to cover up their crimes.” Your conspiracy theory would be good, if it were true.
It is true in part, as there likely were Arabs running around acting like they were preparing to hijack planes, and evidence was planted to bolster that lie. But you are refusing to consider crucial evidence of how the operation was carried out.
If Lisa’s friends in the black ops world know about this, they aren’t talking. Your speculations about international intrigues will lead nowhere, as designed. Incompetence, negligence, sting operation gone bad, whatever. It’s a lie, and you are promoting that lie.
I’m not promoting anything beyond the simple fact that four planes took off, were hijacked, and crashed.
I was flying to LA from Newark Airport on a 9:30PM flight to take a continuing ed class at Cal Tech. As I was reviewing my class pre-reading the guy in the middle seat struck up a conversation with me.
He was a retired Army Colonel who had just been recalled to duty. He had retired the previous May. And his job? Simulation Response. And where was he going? The Fort Irwin National Training Center
He was in charge of a team that used huge databases (hence his interest in my reading) to simulate rapidly changing threat conditions for military units training at Irwin and other places he didn’t name.
He was a fascinating guy and it was a fascinating conversation. When the towers went down I immediatly thought of that conversation two nights previously.
And it was an odd night and an odd flight. It was packed, we were late taking off and the connector from D.C. was late. Lots of people connecting from D.C. that night too.
Very strange night.
are buried, so to speak.
I think he will walk away from this a very rich man (which might not save him from a premature death, the tin foil part of me suspects).
for the war-criminal in the White House and all of his viscious, incompetent and small-minded minions. But anyone who believes they could cause or allow a thing like the attack on the WTC and get away with it is insane.
Drawing a line from Libby stalling on a request to Libby sending murderers flying into the Twin Towers is lunacy.
You make a strawman, Ed.
Let me quote Peter Dale Scott re this:
“I find it very hard to believe that the Bush administration either let or made it happen. It’s clear that people within government were involved, but we should avoid condemning an entire administration.”
I agree. Whether Libby or Cheney were in on any kind of plan remains to be seen. But what was on Libby’s mind that caused him to tell Feinstein they’d be too busy to listen to her plan for six months? It’s a worthy question deserving of pursuit, whatever the answer.
“Clear” to whom. As with everything else you touch, you make baseless allegations with zero evidence.
Just once, on one issue, present some kind of tangible evidence for one of your imaginary conspiracies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman
I think what she’s saying is that she’s not saying this:
“Drawing a line from Libby stalling on a request to Libby sending murderers flying into the Twin Towers is lunacy.”
She’s saying this:
“But what was on Libby’s mind that caused him to tell Feinstein they’d be too busy to listen to her plan for six months? It’s a worthy question deserving of pursuit, whatever the answer.”
Or asking, rather.
At least, that’s what I think.
The diarist writes, immediately after the “Pearl Harbor” quote:
The obvious implication is that Libby was somehow involved in the making or allowing.
Thank you for the clarification. “Giving rise to the notion” is drawing a line, or it is asking a question.
Although I do not agree with RHL at all times, I do not see her arguments as “pure lunacy” nor do I see her as a lunatic. To me, she’s seems exceptionally well-informed, although I do not always agree with her point of view.
Mythmother, you had it right above. I am posing the question, not the answer. Ed J (who always chimes in to defend the gov’s point of view on the JFK case, btw) is leaping to the answer HE sees and saying it’s bogus. But it’s not what I said. Thanks.
It’s not:
I defend the side that has all the evidence. You avoid evidence – to quote Baudelaire – “as one would avoid the breeches of a man with the itch”.
You defend the side that has “all” the evidence?
I rest my case.
(To those not familiar with this – I have no interest in debating evidence online, having given five years of my life to that. The debates are archived online – search alt.conspiracy.jfk and ignore anything that doesn’t come from lpease @ either netcom.com or gte.net (there’s an imposter there pretending to be me – ignore it if it doesn’t come from one of those two domains).
If anyone wants to know what I discovered in that time, please see my book “The Assassinations: Probe Magazine on JFK, MLK, RFK and Malcolm X”. If you can’t afford the book – check it out at the library. And if you don’t want to read anything offline, check out my Real History Archives site, or the CTKA site, where many of our Probe articles are still online.
There are plenty of places to debate the Kennedy assassination online. BT would be a poor choice.
I don’t really mind as long as people have an open mind and don’t spout Warren talking points or Discovery Channel pablum.
No facts allowed – only speculation.
Dude I know more facts about the JFK assassination than I care to remember, but I don’t hear you debating them. I just hear disrespect.
Who killed Kennedy? With what weapon? Where are the bullets?
The Warren Commission had 26 volumes of evidence – Bugliosi has 1600 pages of it. What have you got?
The whole point is that I don’t know who killed him.
You’re giving me the Warren Commission now?
Jesus.
You have listened to the LBJ tapes, or read the transcripts, right?
LOL. He reads a lawyer’s brief and calls it evidence. The “only” evidence, note.
I haven’t Bugliosi’s book because I am too involved in current politics.
BTW- I showed two people the Zapruder film tonight and then I asked them which direction they thought the bullet came from. Neither of them knew which direction it was supposed to have come from, nor had they ever seen the headshot part of the film before.
Guess what they said?
From the front right, causing the head to go back, and to the left. 😀
I was on a business trip to Dallas one time with a former Marine Sniper. He was dying to see Dealey Plaza, to look out from the sixth floor, to visit the Grassy Knoll, etc. So I gave him the grand tour. From the sixth floor, he said he’d have taken the shot of the car coming toward the building, but the going away shot was not doable – a tree is in the way and the angle is terrible.
I then took him on the knoll, behind the fence. He walked up and down for a few minutes and then picked his spot. He was convinced from that moment that Kennedy was shot from the knoll. This from a trained professional.
The margins are totally busted here, but of course they said from the front right, because any idiot can tell that.
ALL agreed that the wound to the back of the president’s head was an entrance wound. The three who did the autopsy, nine for the HSCA, three from the Ramsey Clark panel, and the three from the Rockefeller Commission (one served on two of the panels). This group includes Cyril Wecht, the darling of the conspiracy buffs.
Both shots that hit Kennedy came from above and behind.
And they all did so under various forms of pressure and misinformation.
In addition, if it was an entrance wound, there should have been a LARGER EXIT WOUND in the face. And we all know from the Kennedy death photos there was no such missing chunk of Kennedy’s face.
Bullets enter in small holes and exit in big ones. There was a small wound in the top of Kennedy’s forehead and a very large wound in the back of Kennedy’s head (say these 46 witnesses).
Look at the Zapruder film. This is direct evidence. Show me the
link.
Thanks for making me look up strawman. It’s one of those things where I always assume I know what it means, but I don’t know exactly what it means.
Now I know!
It did give rise to the notion. Whether or not there is any credibility to it is quite another question. That was simply a factual point.
Ed, you’ll note I was quoting Peter Dale Scott, not myself. I’m presenting what people have said and felt. I don’t have any personal conclusions on this matter. Only interest in finding some.
As long as you are talking about conspiracy theories you may be interested in this speculative item I just posted:
CIA – the Dog that didn’t bark
It’s about Iraq, not 9/11, but I wonder if the admin used fabricated evidence that it presented to the house and senate security committees to convince them that Iraq needed to be invaded. The three items that have gotten all the attention (Niger Uranium, mobile biological labs and the Aluminum tubes) were shaky even when offered.
Intelligence experts on the committees shouldn’t have be persuaded by this sort of evidence, so, perhaps they were shown something else.
I’ve been very interested in Michael Ledeens very probable role in the fake Niger documents story. Best article I read was this one by Craig Unger in Vanity Fair last year.
I think it’s important not to see the CIA as a monolith with a single goal, but as a multi-headed hydra where sometimes, the heads pull in different directions. While some people in the CIA clearly opposed war with Iraq early on, others were encouraging it. As to who controls the CIA, look who won.
Lisa, you’ve seen this before, since it is yours.
I wish I could surf the transcripts easier. It disgusts me that Philip Zelikow has control of them. Must he control everything?
There is also a conversation that LBJ has on the 23rd or 25th with a senator (Russell?) where he first lays out his ideas for a Warren Commission.
And he says something like, “We need some responsible people that will make sure the American people don’t get it in their head the Soviets or some right-wing wackos did this.”
This is before he had any idea if they did or did not have anything to do with it. The guy they had in custody was a Soviet defector, with an imposter down in Mexico City snooping around the Cuban and Russian embassies. At least, that is what LBJ knew at the time.
He never wanted the Commission to get the truth, he wanted it to reassure the nation. Everything flows from that.
And who talked him into creating the Warren Commission? LBJ originally wanted the FBI and local Dallas authorities to run the show. But Joe Alsop, one of the CIA’s best press assets, leaned on LBJ hard, as did Eugene Rostow (whose brother Walt also worked for the CIA) to create a “blue-ribbon panel” that would put an end to discussion.
There’s a great new book on the case called “Breach of Trust” that shows just what the Warren Commission knew, and buried, using the documents released in the wake of the film JFK. There’s no way any serious researcher who is honest can say anymore that the Warren Commission was a search for the truth. It was a search for the coverup, plain and simple.
Someday when I’m truly trying to kill time I’ll have to surface some episodes. But don’t hold your breath – I have other writing projects I must tackle before that, including a report on what’s really in — and NOT in — the CIA’s Family Jewels….
True, initially he was all about state’s rights and the feds would have to let Texas handle it. But my point is what he said after he changed his mind. He said, flat out, that he needed the Blue Ribbon to make sure the people didn’t think the Soviets or some right wing wackos had done it.
Okay, some the rifle traces to an alias and there’s an imposter down in Mexico City impersonating the guy and making contacts with the Cuban and Soviet embassies. That’s what he knows.
What can make of that?
Not a whole lot. Could be someone trying to set the Soviets up, could be someone trying to set Oswald up, could be they have too little or the wrong information.
It’s WAY TOO EARLY to decide that they need a blue ribbon panel to reassure the nation that the Soviets aren’t behind it, or right-wingers aren’t behind it.
Meanwhile, RFK is on the phone with the CIA saying, ‘Did you motherfuckers have anything to do with this?’
So, boom. They bring in Dulles, they bring in Ford, he makes Russell stomach sitting on a panel with Warren, who absolutely wants nothing to do with it. And they have a simple mission…explain this away. Whatever the truth, the people need to hear something reassuring.
Now, I am not necessarily faulting LBJ for making this decision. We’d just come through the Cuban Missile Crisis and we didn’t need America thinking the Russians capped our president. But maybe they did. And if they did, we sure as hell would never have been told that. And we’d never know if right-wing wackos did it either. Dulles made sure of that.
Well, I fault him for going along with the cover-up. But I have some sympathy, in that if he had resisted, I’m sure there was a bullet just outside his bedroom door in some fashion, waiting for him too, and he knew it. I swear that’s one of the reasons he didn’t run again in 1968. I can’t help but wonder if he was as sick of the war as RFK was by then, but had to keep up appearances lest the same people who took out JFK train their guns on him.
Or maybe I give the guy too much credit.
It’s clear from the transcript of his conversation with Russell that his goal was to shut down speculation of a conspiracy, NOT to investigate the facts. And one only needs to read some of the testimony from hearings to see this is exactly what happened.
I don’t like to go too far beyond where the evidence leads us. So, I don’t go in for the idea that LBJ had foreknowledge. And I don’t go in for the idea that the cover-up was to hide what LBJ knew. I don’t think LBJ knew who was behind it when he died.
I think he made a decision that it was more important to calm the nation down. He was still speculating on tape in 1968 about who did it.
Oh – I agree. I have never seen any evidence of Johnson’s involvement or knowledge. But he was a smart man and while he may have been initially persuaded that it was a Soviet conspiracy (that was the story the CIA was pushing on him – investigating conspiracy could lead to WWIII), he did get wise later in life and came to believe the CIA was behind the assassination.
What’s the evidence that he thought the CIA did it?
One of his aides told the FBI he had said he believed the CIA did it. The report surfaced a few years later and appeared in the Washington Post. I found it through Schlesinger’s biography of RFK.
That’s a little weak to repeat as fact then.
Here’s exact source info:
From Robert Kennedy and His Times by Arthur Schlesinger, note on the bottom of page 616:
I see that DeLoatch name come up a lot.
So, it wasn’t an aide, it was his chief of staff.
One more thing. Anyone that wants to understand why Lisa and I adamantly refuse to take the lone gunmen theory seriously must read the 2003 Release: Oswald, the CIA, and Mexico City (“Lopez Report”).
Here’s the description.
Here are the basics.
The Cuban and Russian Embassies in Mexico City were under constant photo surveillance by CIA teams in 1963. All photo evidence of Oswald visiting the embassies was destroyed. But we know that Hoover had seen it within 48 hours of the assassination and told LBJ that the man in the photos was not Oswald.
Some day I’ll have to post my write-up on this report. I talked to Dan Hardway and Jim DiEugenio talked to Eddie Lopez, the two co-authors of the report. They both had extraordinarily interesting comments on what they found, how their investigation was controlled, and parts that were censored right out of the report. For example, there was a whole section on Oswald’s relationship with the CIA. Jim showed the report to Lopez and you can hear him flipping through the pages and saying in awe, “It’s gone – it’s all gone!” He wasn’t entirely surprised, because he said the CIA really hated that section. And why wouldn’t they? It showed clearly they were lying about Oswald to other agencies of the government a month before the assassination. That’s pretty spectacular proof of how much the CIA lied to the Warren Commission about Oswald. There’s so much more in this report. But you have to know the people and references to get the most out of it.
I will post my writeup eventually. It’s long past due.
I rest my case:
You can listen here (number 14).
More on Russell’s conversations with LBJ.
Several of the Warren Commission members came to doubt the conclusions in the report. As well they should have.
Thanks. I thought of posting that last night but was too tired. Thanks for jumping in. That is exactly the point. LBJ just wanted to shut down any avenues to conpiracy, not knowing exactly where they’d lead at that point.