Booman wrote a classic anti-Hillary Clinton screed today titled Hillary and the Netroots.
I started a comment in opposition to what he had written, and it turned into a larger piece than I had intended. So here it is as a stand-alone post.
Short version?
It’s Hillary or Giuliani now.
With probably Obama/Edwards or Thompson as alternatives if either of the front runners blow it big time in the next year or so. And don’t forget Big Al waiting in the wings just in case it’s there for him to scoop up without too much effort.
YOU decide who you want.
Read on.
Of course she will “revert” to what worked for her (and for her allies, including her husband) during the 6 years of the Clinton I presidency during which it functioned successfully. More successfully than any presidency since Eisenhower’s if measured in terms of prosperity, and more successfully than any since FDR’s if measured in terms of progress towards taking care of working people.
What else would you expect?
In regards to the “50 state strategy”, you say “She’ll govern much as her husband did, which was effective but also disastrous for the lower levels of the party.”
How was their political apparatus “disastrous for the lower levels of the party”, Booman?
Bill Clinton’s sexual practices were certainly disastrous. To the entire Democratic Party. But the REAL “”disaster” had to do with the concerted, successful effort of the far right to take over the opinion-making apparatus of this country…at least the parts that worked on the minds of the simpler people here (Fox News, talk radio, the conservative Christian segment)…and forge a working majority on the bases of racial hatred, religious hatred, misogyny and sexual fear. Without THAT effort, Bill Clinton would not have been put in the no-win position in which he found himself, the next Democrat would have won, and everything would have been different.
Including our reaction to 9/11, if THAT disaster indeed even happened.
And how much do you want to bet that if Hillary Clinton and a Democratic congress is elected, that nasty media door will be snapped shut and boarded up for a generation or more to come. Ms. Clinton DOES know where that “vast right wing conspiracy” resides and how it works its evil, new reality-creating magic. Her momma didn’t raise no dummies.
Yes, I also have no use for Begala, Carville, Rahm and the rest of the political insects that inhabit the Clinton hive. To tell you the truth, I am not sure that I have any “use” for any politicians whatsoever. But they are as indigenous to human society as is the common cold, and probably even more necessary. (Yes, disease is “necessary” in the grand scheme of things. The perfect universe is perfectly balanced. Bet on it.) But the continual sniping from the left while it simultaneously builds up the careers of potential losers (or equally bad, dividers of the vote) like Edwards and Gore can only work to the advantage of creatures like Giuliani and Thompson.
Is that what y’all want?
A President Rudy Giuliani?
You have NO IDEA how bad that would be. I do. I lived in the working class districts of NYC through his reign. I would rather live under Bush. At least Bush is incompetent.
And Thompson? Just look at his acting. He has only two available emotional states.
Gloweringly threatening or off-the-wall angry.
Alone in the same room with the red button when crossed?
UH OH!!!
So…keep on sniping.
Keep on complaining.
Cripple her campaign because she realizes that “the left” is not correct in terms of electoral tactics.
Did you read the article(s) regarding her Wellesley thesis written about the far left organizer Saul Alinsky? They are a FASCINATING read. Read this one if you have not done so.
A quote:
And there it is.
Alinsky failed. Just look at the so-called “labor movement” in the U.S. today for all you need to know on that account.
And Hillary Rodham (Clinton) succeeded.
She succeeded in being one of the prime movers behind an extremely successful presidency. (Another quote from her thesis…this time regarding Alinsky himself…is quite revealing as well. “Alinsky is a born organizer who is not easily duplicated, but, in addition to his skill, he is a man of exceptional charm.” Hmmm. Sounds like the Hillary/Bill combo, doesn’t it? Hmmmm.)
She then succeeded in surviving its meltdown and becoming a two-time U.S., Senator from perhaps the most powerful state in the union, New York. Where in her second term she had the (at least tacit and sometimes NOT so tacit) support of a HUGE number of usually Republican upstate pols and power players.
And now she has succeeded in using those two bases…her involvement in the Clinton I presidency and her two terms as a powerful Senator…to get pole position in the Democratic race for the 2008 Presidential nomination. A race that would have to be TOTALLY mismanaged to lose after the many failings of the CheneyBush gang.
And here y’all are…in true “I can’t STAND to win” lefty fashion…just whaling away at her like there is no tomorrow.
Well, Booman…if you are successful in crippling her run I can almost guarantee that there WILL be no tomorrow.
ANOTHER four years in power?
With Giuliani as front man? Crafty and crooked as HE is?
Another chance to consolidate their stranglehold on the Constitution?
Please.
Picture it and weep.
But you are NOT “picturing it”.
You are longing for some Saul Alinsky in the sky.
Well, babies…Homie don’t play that.
Not in America he don’t.
Homie looks MUCH more like Homer Simpson than he does Saul Alinsky. Just step away from your various dream machines…the tube, the newsmedia, the internet…get in a car and drive at least an hour away from any major city in the U.S. to figure THAT shit out. Get out of the car and go into a diner. Have lunch. And look around. That’s all you have to do. We are about 3 percentage points away from a fascist takeover, and the people wolfing down their sleazeburgers will not give a flying FUCK if that happens as long as their gasoline remains affordable for another year or two or three.
So…keep it up, folks.
If you are really successful, you WILL cripple Hillary Clinton. And run some blow dried faker like John Edwards or a pompous ass like Al Gore in her stead.
This woman rolled up her sleeves 40 years ago and dug in. And here she is, with 40 years of winning experience DOING SOMETHING OTHER THAN LOSING ALINSKY STYLE.
And y’all are hellbent on losing again.
Good on ya.
The day in 2008 that the Rats successfully maintain their position of power here in America will be the day that I cut and run.
OUTTA here!!!
Because it will be all over for America
And if that happens…YOU will have been the ones that did it.
Joe Bageant’s “soft, moody, self-absorbed American lefties.”
Yup.
Here’s to ya.
I have one thing to say for y’all.
You sure are consistent.
Later…
AG
Feel free. Fire away.
I have my patented Hillary Rodham Clinton model asbestos/tinfoil amalgam hat on, and cannot be harmed by anything other that a final vote tally.
If that.
Later…
AG
You don’t address one of my key points at all.
Possibly.
But I doubt it.
You overthink.
Or…perhaps you are a secret Clinton op? TRYING to fan the flames of opposition so that she can win and become the first monarch of the New American Dynasty?
Not.
AG
Well, I said a) not to unfairly attack her and to defend her against unfair attacks, and b) that it’s no lose proposition. Either she loses the primary, which would be fantastic, or she wins and is far distanced from the left.
Your supposition is that Edwards or Obama or Gore will lose in ’08. I think you’re stoned on dust.
We shall see.
AG
I think you have a chronic case of Dukakititis.
I actually think that Hillary Clinton is the ANTI+Dukakis.
I can see Edwrads and his lovely perm posing in front of an aircraft carrier and getting laughed off of the front page.
And I can see Gore harrumphing his way from favorite to also-ran in about 3 months.
Talk about grassroots and phonies!!! They will read THOSE two in a country minute.
Hillary?
She has a certain ineffable class that will tell over the long run.
She is certainly a politician…but she does not harrumph much and she doesn’t try to look like what she is not.
That’s the way I see it, anyway.
AG
Dukakititis: (noun) a condition of permanent fear that the Democratic nominee will be marginalized because they lack the requisite toughness or savvy to overcome swift-boating.
AG, l think from your vantage that you may not be as aware as you would like to believe re: the homey’s out there in the heartland.
you underestimate, or ignore, the intense, visceral dislike that these rednecks have for ms. clinton…and l’m not talking about just the rat-thuglican, christofascist fringe….a lot of these people are nominal democrats, and want a change, but they will never vote for her. period. l know from interactions with those folks, on a more frequent basis than l care for, that it ain’t gonna happen. you and all the high dollar consultants ignore that at your peril…heaven forbid that bloomberg, or someone else with deep pockets, should step into the race as a third party candidate….rat-thug landslide regadrless of the candidate, or much worse.
that magic 18% generic advantage the d‘s have going into the 08 elections will vanish overnight, the moment she locks up the nomination…make book on it.
the hard core, kool-aide drinking 25-30% will vote rat-thug, one hell of a lot of the rest of those people will stay home, and you’ll get to see your nightmare scenario of a guiliani, or whomever, taking the oath on jan 20, 2009.
the biggest danger to hillary isn’t the grassroots progressives, it’s her history, or the perception of it…and the spin that the mighty wurlitzer is going to put on it will assure the d‘s one again snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
watch.
lTMF’sA
I’ll just say “ditto” from out here in middle america. Hillary is the repulican nominee’s dream come true.
Hillary ’08 means Ohio stays red in ’08.
Y’know.,..all of these woeful “So MANY people hate her” things?
I don’t see it.
NY State is, contrary to popular opinion, a very interesting balance of urban, subuirban and rural votes. Witness the string of Ratpub Governors for all you need to know on that account. Since 1943, it has had 38 years of Ratpub Governors and 26 years of Dems.
60% Rat, by the numbers.
DURING one of those Rat reigns, Ms. Clinton won a plurality of 55% to 45% in her first campaign and 67% to 31% in her second run.
Not bad for a woman who “everyone” is supposed to hate.
What do these numbers say to me?
They say that the better people get to know her…and they will REALLY get to know her during a presidential campaign…the more they begin to respect her.
So all of you doom sayers…the same types who cried wolf when she ran for the Senate in NY…I think that you are literally full of shit.
Sorry…gotta be country simple about this.
She may not be Joan of Arc or Red Emma Goldman or Saul Alinsky…but she ain’t bad when it comes to running a campaign.
On the numbers.
Bet on it.
And watch.
AG
and the effect of an 8 year Clinton Presidency was to leave us with George II, Darth Chaney, an emaciated democratic party infrastructure outside of D.C. and a dearth of innovative ideas, solutions and leaders at the state and local level.
Many folks have been fighting for going on 5 years now to rebuild the democratic party’s ability to compete in all kinds of districts against all kinds of candidates and ideas; and finally to govern according to the rule of law and democratic values.
We’re worried that we may lose the gains we’ve made towards restoring a “progressive” federalism if the beltway boys and girls get their candidate or candidates in there.
Almost all “macro” change in the US has been driven by a multitude of “micro changes” in the states.
She truly embodies the rotten, corrupt and vacuous soul of the Democratic Party, and all that is so deeply wrong and dangerous with the twin sock-puppet duopoly that currently masquerades as a functioning political system in our country. A strident militarist, an unapologetic corporate welfare-ist, a born elitist down to the tips of her $1000 Manolo Blahnik pumps, an eager and compliant tool of the neo-feudalistic ruling class, Hillary is without a doubt the ideal choice to be the first Democratic president of the 21st Century.
Whenever I envision Lady MacBitch going toe-to-toe with the Ghost of 9/11 Past, the inestimable Rudy Ghouliani, I can’t help but think of the last paragraph of Orwell’s Animal Farm (paraphrasing):
Twelve voices were shouting in anger, and they were all alike. No question, now, what had happened to the faces of the Dems. The citizens outside looked from Dem to Pub, and from Pub to Dem, and from Dem to Pub again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Of course, it goes without saying that there will always be that hard-core minority of mindless “Demos Good! Repubs Bad!” sheep-bleaters who will be true-blue party loyalists to the bitter end, but that’s to be expected — they are merely part of that segment of the populace that, in Lincoln’s words, is capable of being fooled all of the time.
The bottom line is that ascendancy of such a transparently worthless, cynical and corrupt corporate toady and political hack as Hillary Clinton can only hasten the day when a critical mass of ordinary Americans will be sufficiently angered, energized and united in their purpose as to be able to challenge the “Tyranny of Wealth” in a meaningful and effective manner.
In the meantime, Go Hillary!
Yer dreamin’, dude.
No revolution here.
More like a gradual sink into a Great Britain-like position of second-level power. Complete with surveillance cameras.
This empire isn’t going to collapse in some kind of paroxysmal change. Not unless there is a nuclear or other environmental disaster.
And your anger at Hillary? Her shoes? Y’know, I really get the sense that had she not embarked upon a single-minded pursuit of inside-the-system change, she would have beeen be happier messing around in her garden wearing a pair of Birkenstocks.
We shall see. She is CERTAINLY not going to meet your rigorous revolutionary standards, that’s for sure. Be careful what you wish for, Red. “Revolution” in this country would tear it apart, and the forces that would be in conflict would be fearsomely criminal. On BOTH sides. Because the middle class so-called “left” would not do a goddamned thing other than moan and wring its collective hands over what was happening. Just as it always has. It would be far-right mercenaries vs. the “regular army”…what was left of it, anyway, after the defections…vs. rural right wing militias/gangs vs. urban, racially oriented gangs.
Nice.
Can’t WAIT for that one, dude.
I can’t wait.
You want to be born(e) into interesting times?
Go fight in Angola.
Later…
AG
>Yer dreamin’, dude.
And you’re hopelessly delusional. Of the two, I prefer being a dreamer.
>No revolution here.
People were saying the same thing to Thomas Paine 230-odd years ago. Did you know?
>More like a gradual sink into a Great Britain-like position of second-level power. Complete with surveillance cameras.<
Damn! Gotta get me one of them crystal balls. They sure do come in handy sometimes.
>This empire isn’t going to collapse in some kind of paroxysmal change. Not unless there is a nuclear or other environmental disaster.<
My position is that wealth class is now practicing a particularly virulent form of economic apartheid, and the fatal weakness of such a system is the same as that which manifested itself in the racial apartheid system that (formerly) existed in South Africa. The imbalance between the overlord and peasant classes eventually becomes too great for the system to sustain itself.
>And your anger at Hillary? Her shoes? Y’know, I really get the sense that had she not embarked upon a single-minded pursuit of inside-the-system change, she would have beeen be happier messing around in her garden wearing a pair of Birkenstocks.<
Y’know, I really get the sense that had she not been so utterly and completely devoted to the attainment of wealth, power, fame, and general self-aggrandizement, she might have turned out to be a half-way decent human being – or at least a recognizable one. Funny how perceptions differ on such things, isn’t it?
>We shall see. She is CERTAINLY not going to meet your rigorous revolutionary standards, that’s for sure.<
Rigorous revolutionary standards, that’s rich. Like giving a fat rat’s ass about promoting policies that serve the interests of ordinary citizens… that’s revolutionary now? Hey, here’s a campaign slogan Hillary’s brain trust should consider using: Wake up, disaffected lefties! Don’t you know that a billionth of a loaf is better than none?
>Be careful what you wish for, Red. “Revolution” in this country would tear it apart, and the forces that would be in conflict would be fearsomely criminal.<
Obviously if you reject the red-blue corporate sock-puppet duopoly, then it naturally follows you must be a gun-toting, Molotov-cocktail throwing Che Guevara wannabe. That makes perfect sense. It’s hard for me to fault your logic, Arthur – but if I ever find any, I’ll for sure give it a shot.
>On BOTH sides. Because the middle class so-called “left” would not do a goddamned thing other than moan and wring its collective hands over what was happening. Just as it always has. It would be far-right mercenaries vs. the “regular army”…what was left of it, anyway, after the defections…vs. rural right wing militias/gangs vs. urban, racially oriented gangs.<
>Nice.
Right. As in “nice strawman argument”, dude. Nowhere in my message did I remotely suggest that violent insurrection is a viable solution to anything. It so happens I don’t believe in it, nor would I support it. The fact is that it is possible for successful revolutions to be essentially peaceful in nature – at least I’m reasonably sure Mr. Gandhi would agree, even if Mr. Gilroy does not.
>Can’t WAIT for that one, dude.
>I can’t wait.
Wow, the simple power of your eloquence is, um… well, I’m not sure actually.
But your habit of writing in short, clipped, cryptic paragraphs.
Awesome.
It gives me goose pimples, actually.
And I’m not making that up.
>You want to be born(e) into interesting times?
>Go fight in Angola.
Nah, I’m gonna organize one of those “spontaneous demonstrations” at the Democratic convention where a bunch of people dressed in sheep costumes spontaneously jump up and begin spontaneously chanting:
“Four legs good, two legs better!”
As one of those “more equal than others” super-alpha sows, I feel quite certain Hillary will really get a kick out of that one.
So… you in?
>Later…
Ditto, dude. And thanks for playing.
RH
And you’re hopelessly delusional. Of the two, I prefer being a dreamer.
>No revolution here.
People were saying the same thing to Thomas Paine 230-odd years ago. Did you know?
Yeah.
I know.
But people were hungry and living cheek to jowl with all KINDS of dangers then.
Lots of people.
People at risk…or at least AWARE of their risk…tend to be ready to fight more than the overfed couch potatoes who balloon the network and cable ratings from 6 PM until 11:30 7 days a week.
Plus…the primary control mechanism (the Church of England) couldn’t hold a CANDLE the the media mind control apparatus now in place. And the military/police system was not nearly as effective as it is now. Plus…EVERYBODY had a gun.
Damn! Gotta get me one of them crystal balls. They sure do come in handy sometimes.
Snark sucks.
You are “predicting” with your hatred of Hillary Clinton. So am I . So WHAT?
My position is that wealth class is now practicing a particularly virulent form of economic apartheid, and the fatal weakness of such a system is the same as that which manifested itself in the racial apartheid system that (formerly) existed in South Africa. The imbalance between the overlord and peasant classes eventually becomes too great for the system to sustain itself.
Agreed.
Ain’t there yet in the U.S.
Not even CLOSE.
The ruling classes have been very careful here to bread and circus the people to within an inch of their lives.
Sated fools do not revolt. They are only revolting.
Y’know, I really get the sense that had she not been so utterly and completely devoted to the attainment of wealth, power, fame, and general self-aggrandizement, she might have turned out to be a half-way decent human being – or at least a recognizable one. Funny how perceptions differ on such things, isn’t it?
Yup.
Rigorous revolutionary standards, that’s rich. Like giving a fat rat’s ass about promoting policies that serve the interests of ordinary citizens… that’s revolutionary now? Hey, here’s a campaign slogan Hillary’s brain trust should consider using: Wake up, disaffected lefties! Don’t you know that a billionth of a loaf is better than none?
>Be careful what you wish for, Red. “Revolution” in this country would tear it apart, and the forces that would be in conflict would be fearsomely criminal.<
Obviously if you reject the red-blue corporate sock-puppet duopoly, then it naturally follows you must be a gun-toting, Molotov-cocktail throwing Che Guevara wannabe. That makes perfect sense. It’s hard for me to fault your logic, Arthur – but if I ever find any, I’ll for sure give it a shot.
Pardon my assumptions. The “Red Harvest” moniker is saying SOMETHING.
Must be related to plankton farming.
SO sorry.
>Nice.
Right. As in “nice strawman argument”, dude. Nowhere in my message did I remotely suggest that violent insurrection is a viable solution to anything. It so happens I don’t believe in it, nor would I support it. The fact is that it is possible for successful revolutions to be essentially peaceful in nature – at least I’m reasonably sure Mr. Gandhi would agree, even if Mr. Gilroy does not.
If Mr. Gandhi had been going up against Blackwater, the CIA and our laughable Police/Justice system with a totally de-moralized population…and by that I mean the so-called “situational morality” that has been media-booted into almost everyone’s hard drives rather than the kind that obtains in most great religions no matter HOW devolved they may have become…he wouldn’t have gotten much further than his ashram.
>I can’t wait.
Wow, the simple power of your eloquence is, um… well, I’m not sure actually.
But your habit of writing in short, clipped, cryptic paragraphs.
Awesome.
It gives me goose pimples, actually.
And I’m not making that up.
Snark sucks.
Talk about argument tactics…
>Go fight in Angola.
Nah, I’m gonna organize one of those “spontaneous demonstrations” at the Democratic convention where a bunch of people dressed in sheep costumes spontaneously jump up and begin spontaneously chanting:
“Four legs good, two legs better!”
As one of those “more equal than others” super-alpha sows, I feel quite certain Hillary will really get a kick out of that one.
So… you in?
>Later…
Y’know what?
If you can wangle floor passes…you bet your ASS I’m in.
Really.
Everyone can use a good wakeup call.
RH
Somebody once walked up to Charles Mingus, the legendarily bitter, angry and inspired jazz composer/bass player, and complimented him on his playing.
He growled “I ain’t ‘playing,’ bitch!!! “
Yup.
Later…
AG
Yeah, well. One can always come up with a plausible sounding rationalization for playing it safe, taking the wise, prudent and risk averse course of action. No doubt in my mind that many people of conscience and good will were making the same kinds of arguments back in the 1770’s.
There’s always SOME compelling reason why one should believe that this time is different, people aren’t angry enough, the enemy is too formidable, and on and on. As I see it, it is the timidity and passivity of so many members of the alleged “progressive community” that is helping make the subjugation and oppression of the lesser classes such an absolute cakewalk for the power elite. Have you not heard that fortune favors the bold?
Listen, dude, revolution is not some kind of political 100-yard dash. It’s more like a mega-marathon. Ho Chi Minh was in Versailles agitating for Vietnamese independence in 1918, for Crissake. And yet it wasn’t until 1973 that the last imperialist running dog was finally vanquished. The ANC Youth League, forerunner of the modern African National Congress, was founded by three angry young radicals – Nelson Mandella, Walter Sisulu and Oliver Tambo – in 1944. Yet it wasn’t until 1994 that those same three gray-haired old men finally witnessed the hated flag of the Afrikaner oppressors being hauled down for the last time. This kind of shit generally takes awhile, you know?
Admittedly it’s a little obscure, but nothing that 10 seconds worth of googling couldn’t have cleared up. For the record, it’s the name of a 1929 detective novel written by Dashiell Hammett. The novel’s inspiration was the sordid history of the one-time copper mining capitol of America – Butte, Montana.
The name appealed to me simply because the history of Butte represents a classic example of unfettered, robber-baron style capitalism in its most raw, venal, reckless and malignant form. If you or anyone else would like to educate yourself a bit on this rotting monument to the unparalleled greed, irresponsibility and outright viciousness of America’s overclass, I highly recommend this excellent article by Jeffery St. Clair,
Something About Butte.
At any rate, I hope I’ve at least succeeded in convincing you that I am actually not a Godless commie, the “Red” moniker notwithstanding.
I’m quite sure Gandhi would have been the first to agree that the dynamics of every situation are unique, and that strategies and tactics that were successful in one arena are likely as not to fail miserably in another. That of course kind of begs the question as to whether or not his advice would have been: Sheesh, it looks like you’re really up against an absolutely invincible foe. Best suggestion I can come up with is to just lay down and give up.
Except when practiced by you of course. In that case it’s fun, witty, and devilishly clever. Check.
Super! Only trouble is my plan is based on two somewhat implausible assumptions: First, that I can figure out a way to get within ten end-to-end aircraft carrier’s distance of the convention hall — seeing as how I’m not even a registered Democrat, much less a Hillary supporter — and second, that in the event I’m able to solve problem #1, I can find a way to get eight or ten people dressed as sheep onto the convention floor.
I definitely believe that achieving at least one of those goals is distinctly possible, but realistically, accomplishing both may be somewhat of a stretch. In any case, I will certainly add your name to my list of volunteer bleaters.
Gotta admit that’s a great comeback. Being a jazz fan myself, I can relate.