Crossposted from Left Toon Lane, Bilerico Project & My Left Wing
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When I was in high school, I was well educated in Soviet geography. Vladivostok, Novosibirsk and of course Moscow were all familiar places on the world map. Sadly, Americans seem to get the bulk of the geographic education when we go to war (fake or otherwise). Mosul? That is in Northern Iraq and Highway 2 goes right through it. Basra? Oh that is the seaport on the Gulf. Minnesota? What the Hell are you talking about?
Despite our highest hopes of electing a Democratic Congress, they seem to have no intent of removing a war criminal from power. Nor does it appear they will make any serious moves to prevent nuclear war with Iran… yet ANOTHER nation that has done nothing us. (OK, the hostages were an issue 3 decades ago, but we did open diplomatic channels with them again – oh, my bad, that was back when we practiced DIPLOMACY. Back to our nightmare at hand.)
BushCo has reneged on every nuclear arms control treaty this nation has ever signed plus he has not lifted a finger to negotiate new ones. On top of that he started building NEW nukes. The idiot never met a law he didn’t want to break.
Now we have this recent history of invading countries that hasn’t attacked us (and avoiding those who have – ahem… Saudi Arabia) is it any wonder the United States is seen as the biggest threat to peace and stability on the planet?
If we drop ANY kind of nuclear device on Iran, it will open up a Pandora’s Box of sorrow that we have managed to keep shut for more than 60 years. Even if it is a bunker buster, America will then become the world’s NUMBER ONE rogue nation without a doubt.
When the only global friend you have is Communist China, it speaks volumes of how far we will have fallen.
What makes you think the Chinese are FRIENDS? They’re business associates, no more than that. When shrub pushes the button, we will have no more friends forever…. and it won’t be very many years that we remain as a nation. We’ll find out, up close and personal, what it’s like to live under the “global embargo” we’ve been trying to get people to employ against people we don’t like.
What makes you think the Chinese are FRIENDS? They’re business associates, no more than that.
Arguably, despotic countries like China and America never have friends, just situations of mutual leverage. Washington and Beijing are “friends” to exactly the same degree as Berlin and Moscow were friends before the opening of the eastern front. Both sides are simply waiting for an opportunity to overcome the other and are playing nice while they wait.
Now we have this recent history of invading countries that hasn’t attacked us (and avoiding those who have – ahem… Saudi Arabia)
Sauidi Arabia didn’t attack us: a bunch of its citizens did. No one so far as I know has ever suggested that the Saudi government was involved in or even aware of the plot for the 9/11 attacks.
There is however a case from the 1960s in which a country, one of our allies no less, did attack us, and we did absolutely nothing about it:
USS Liberty Memorial
As much as I dislike Israel, and as fond as I am of conspiracy theories, the idea that the Liberty incident was anything more than an unfortunate mistake simply doesn’t make any sense. I’d be far more willing to bet that there actually are frozen alien corpses at Roswell than to believe that Israel, in the midst of a war of survival, deliberately attacked a vessel belonging to its only ally. There is adequate evidence to argue criminal negligence, but not active malice aforethought.
Are you saying that you think that the quotes of US government officials on the Web site I link to maintained by two survivors of the attack are made up?
This isn’t about liking or disliking Israel. This is about, as someone caring about the welfare of Americans, wanting the US to pursue a self-interested foreign policy, something the Israel lobby prevents it from doing.
No, I don’t think the quotes are made up. But I think Dean Rusk was a flat-out wackjob, and Richard Helms, as we all know, was the only CIA director to ever be convicted of lying to Congress, which makes him a less-than-reliable source. The NSA being what it is, it is impossible to evaluate the veracity or accuracy of statements made by its employees.
The remarks made by actual military eyewitnesses ought to be considered, but with the clear understanding that eyewitness reports are often unreliable, and all the more so in combat. And if there is anything that the ranks of military are full of, it is weird conspiracy theories and disinformation campaigns. You can walk into any bar in a base town and hear endless conversations about whats “really” going on that would make Art Bell sound like a hard-nosed skeptic.
At the end of the day, all the Liberty conspiracy theorists have are a handful of dissenters from the official conclusions who have yet to produce any compelling evidence to support their views, much less a plausible explanation of why Israel would deliberately attack its only ally.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply.
Yes, eyewitness accounts are often unreliable, but how much reliability one attributes to them will be determined largely by how plausible one finds what they relate. Most Americans find it unimaginable that Israel would attack a US vessel. I find it perfectly plausible, because Israel does not play by the usual rules, believing that it is privileged among nations (as the US does today). In last summer’s invasion of Lebanon, Israel deliberately attacked a UN observation post. The attack on the Liberty is the same thing, simply on a much larger scale.
You call believing that the attack on the Liberty was deliberate a “conspiracy theory”. That is the first time I have heard that term applied to this view. The attack on the Liberty was not conducted by a hidden conspiracy, but by a military following the normal chain of command. The subsequent denial that the attack was deliberate was a conspiracy only in a weak sense of the term, since it only amounted to business as usual in both Israel and Washington.
A spy ship looks quite distinctive, with all kinds of antennas that an ordinary ship does not have. I simply cannot believe that any competent military could mistake an American spy ship for anything the Arabs could have. It’s that simple. Thus I find the idea that the Israeli military could have been so incompetent as not to realize that the USS Liberty was a US spy ship completely implausible. That implausibility trumps any implausibility that Israel would attack its main ally might have. (I don’t say “only” ally as you did because I believe Israel had friendly relations with South Africa at the time.)
The reason Israel attacked the Liberty is the same reason it attacked those UN observation posts in Lebanon: it didn’t want the rest of the world to know what it was up to.
This is just a friendly exchange of views; I don’t think that either one of us expects or is especially eager to convince the other. Given all that has happened since the stolen election of 2000, whether the attack on the Liberty was deliberate is, as they say, of mainly historical interest. I just like bringing it up when the occasion arises.
The main reason I don’t find it implausible that the Israelis mistook the Liberty for an Egyptian ship is that mistakes of that sort happen with some regularity in combat. The US bombed Canadians in Afghanistan and attacked a British armored vehicle in the Iraq invasion. You may be correct that no competent military would do such a thing, but there are an awful lot of incompetent people in any military, just as there are within civilian organizations. And generally speaking, people don’t become any more competent when they’re being shot at.
The problem with comparing the Liberty incident with the almost undoubtedly deliberate attack on that UN outpost in Lebanon is that while the UN has never had any great reluctance to trumpet the details of Israel’s crimes, the US has always been happy to look the other way.
It’s not that I am a supporter of Israel or that I doubt that the Israeli government is capable of the most appalling crimes, it’s just that I find this particular case to be ambiguous at best.
The main reason I don’t find it implausible that the Israelis mistook the Liberty for an Egyptian ship is that mistakes of that sort happen with some regularity in combat.
What are you talking about? This was not a combat situation. Have you actually read anything about this incident? Consider how Wikipedia reports it. If there were something significantly wrong with the following account of events, you can be sure there would have been people constantly changing the Wikipedia article to correct it:
Thus, according to this account, a flyby of the Liberty was made by the IAF at 0600, and another at 0900. Then the Liberty was attacked by the IAF at 1400.
This timeline is consistent not with a tragic mistake being made in the heat of battle, but with two reconnaissance flights being made to get a confirmed positive ID, the information gained from those being passed up the chain of command all the way to the top, and orders to attack being given from the top of the chain of command and being passed down accordingly.
I really can’t understand why you are having difficulties grasping this, the most straightforward explanation.