Zogby sez:
There is considerable division about when a strike on Iran should take place – if at all. Twenty-eight percent believe the U.S. should wait to strike until after the next president is in office while 23% would favor a strike before the end of President Bush’s term. Another 29% said the U.S. should not attack Iran, and 20% were unsure. The view that Iran should not be attacked by the U.S. is strongest among Democrats (37%) and independents, but fewer than half as many Republicans (15%) feel the same. But Republicans are also more likely to be uncertain on the issue (28%).
You might hope that the American people had tired of war. The numbers tell a different story. Here’s the key (emphasis added):
A majority of likely voters – 52% – would support a U.S. military strike to prevent Iran from building a nuclear weapon, and 53% believe it is likely that the U.S. will be involved in a military strike against Iran before the next presidential election, a new Zogby America telephone poll shows.
The numbers show a divided country even over using military force to prevent Iran from building a nuclear weapon. Of course, we could ask the electorate the same questions and include all the available information from the IAEA, the head of which:
ElBaradei sparked controversy with the US and French governments by declaring Sunday that he had no evidence to show that Iran is building nuclear weapons.
So, ask the question again: would you support military strikes against Iran in the absence of any evidence that shows they are building nuclear weapons? What response do you think we would get?
Meanwhile, the Washington Post op-ed page continues to show staggering complicity in provoking a confrontation with Iran. Just yesterday, Sebastian Mallaby suggested that the Kyl-Lieberman amendment was all about sanctions on Iran related to their unproven nuclear weapons program. Today, Richard Cohen more accurately depicts the amendment as all about declaring Iran’s Revolutionary Guard a terrorist organization. But Cohen laments the fact that George W. Bush and General David Petraeus are the boys that cried wolf. No one believes their evidence anymore. Cohen even goes so far as to say that he fears the resulting mistrust of government ‘more than a senseless war with Iran.’
As the resolution states, the American military has “evidence” — the word is Gen. David Petraeus’s — of Iranian activity. “This is not intelligence,” the general told Congress. “This is evidence, off computers that we captured, documents and so forth.” Petraeus didn’t get his stars for nothing. He knows the level of well-earned cynicism that the word “intelligence” now engenders in Congress. Evidence! He’s talking evidence.
No matter. To a whole lot of people, Petraeus might as well have been talking dream interpretation. These people, most of them on the Democratic left, not only do not believe the evidence, they see the resolution as the old Bush administration rope-a-dope: the first step on the road to war with Iran…
…More than a senseless war with Iran — certainly premature at the moment — I fear the sort of malaise that came over America after the Vietnam War or, more to the point, the defeatism-turned-cynicism that crippled Britain and France following World War I.
It cannot be repeated enough that the IAEA has found no evidence that Iran is pursuing a nuclear weapons program. It also cannot be stated enough that much of the evidence the Pentagon has put out about Iran’s activities within Iraq has been retracted, gone unsubstantiated, or been disproven. No one disputes that Iran has a lot of influence in Iraq. The two holiest sites in Shi’a Islam are in the southern Iraq cities of Najaf and Kerbala. Iran is the largest Shi’a country in the world. Under Saddam, they were forbidden to make pilgrimages to their holy sites. It was inevitable that Shi’ites would band together, regardless of ethnicity, to make sure their interests are better protected in the new Iraqi government. But, the text of the Kyl-Lieberman amendment includes much that is in dispute. Despite this, Cohen says:
The resolution itself is a pretty straightforward affair, stating a compelling case that the al-Quds Force has interfered in Iraq and caused the deaths of Americans. Whatever you may feel about the war in Iraq, no one gets to kill Americans with impunity.
If you read the text of the amendment you’ll quickly realize that the only thing that is compelling is the fact that General Petraeus and Ambassador Ryan Crocker and putting their names on unsubstantiated allegations. That is supposed to be enough…as though we haven’t been through this before with Ambassador Henry Cabot Lodge Jr. and General Westmoreland. We know for an absolute fact that Dick Cheney is telling lies about the intelligence on Iran every single chance he makes a public statement, yet we are supposed to take his underling’s words at face value. Sorry, but we can’t do that. Cohen finishes his lament:
But the true realism is that Iran is a menace — potentially a great one — and that its Revolutionary Guard is engaged in the dirty business of killing Americans and others. The fact that the Bush administration says so does not make it otherwise.
The Senate’s resolution was a necessary step toward tightening sanctions on Iran — a way to avoid war, not the overture to one. It was intended to send a message of resolve, but the message that went out showed instead that a good piece of America thinks that Bush is its prime enemy — and Iran just another bee in his bonnet. This is the lamentable legacy of George W. Bush — an abuse of trust that has weakened the country he swore to protect.
Cohen resorts to begging the question to assert that Iran is a menace and that they are killing Americans. He then begs the question again by stating that sanctions are ‘necessary’. He falls into the false dichotomy of war or sanctions. And then, finally, he acknowledges that the blame for this falls on the Bush administration.
I don’t dispute that it is a problem that the public no longer believes the administration. But the far bigger problem is that so many of them do believe the administration and are willing to support a ‘senseless war with Iran.’
bring back the draft
A simple, clear suggestion which would put an end to the insatiable U.S. appetite for war.
because when the people lead, the leaders follow.
when the people are too comfortable, the leaders can do anything they want.
make people pay for war instead of borrowing for war
make people share the pain
its the only way
Yes, because when we had a draft we never had pointless wars.
The draft won’t help because the family of the elite warmongers never get drafted. See Bush, George W defending the skies of Texas during the Vietnam War among others.
That’s my gut instinct. Draft the 52% and/or their loved ones and then lets see how much they want to go to war with Iran.
But….
Then I remember that the majority of these knuckle-dragging troglodytes around me are divorced from reality.
“Bush will only bomb Iran’s nuke-you-ler weapons facilities. It won’t be like a real war.” (I kid you not, heard down the aisle from my little milk-fed veal cubicle last week. It’s like Iran and “we’ll just bomb them back to the stone-age Afghanistan” never happened.)
These ass-hats are also immune to the whole “there but by the grace of god go I” philosophy that runs amok in my own pointed head. They honestly believe that they will never be touched by all those things at which they hurl stones or by all the bad policy decisions of the GrOPers.
Their daughter will never need an abortion (or their wife, for that matter).
Their son will never catch “teh gay” (because they don’t know any gay people!).
They’ll never need gubmint subsidized or provided health insurance because they “did it right” and have good jobs with good pay and benefits because they don’t take handouts from anyone (even though their relatives regularly check the mailbox for the “don’t grow this type of crop” check).
They’ll never have to worry about their children being drafted because that’s what deferrments are for (just like their hero Dead-Eye-Dick).
In other words, I have little faith in my fellow duhMerkuns to realize that another war tricked out with a draft could seriously fuck up their shit.
Discouraging. You’re probably right. Even more discouraging.
dude, stay away from those Cohen op-eds. They’ll drive you nuts in every way, from his intolerably prissy tone (he reminds me of Martin Prince with a beard) to his deliberate lies to his persistence on the post’s op-ed page.
I don’t even read the Post anymore. Maybe once in awhile for news articles, but I don’t even bother with the editorials. All a bunch of lies that give me a headache.
The “false dichotomy of war or sanctions” is precisely right!
From IranAffairs.com today:
Note that the Iranians have repeatedly made compromise offers that would address any legitimate concern about nuclear weapons proliferation – only to be ignored. This is more of the old “shaping the facts to fit the policy”
I am mostly just relieved that you know how to beg the question. So few people do.
Only humiliating defeat is going to cure the American people of their military disease. Terrible to think it might have to come to this. You’d think the media at least would wake up to the fact that another military failure will wreck American foreign policy goals for a generation.
Following Cohen’s alleged thought processes can be truly mind blowing.
On the one hand, he cites Petraeus’ “evidence” claim with what sounds like a heavy dose of smark.
Then he proceeds to take pure supposition and vault it into fact
Then he rubs his crystal ball and makes a completely unsubstantiated proclamation.
And finally, while blaming the whole morass on Bush administration, takes a backhanded swipe at the gullibility of the people for swallowing the media’s round the clock drumbeat to war, of which he has been a star player.
Has anybody got any Extra Strength Tylenol? Reading this drivel can give you a hell of a headache.
your closing graph puzzles me. A problem, then- a bigger problem. The numbers tell the story Boo- 52% favor the propogander position. Once again, through the use of the media, the fucker has lied and gotten the citizenry to believe the deciever.52%!!!!!! This is the number that will be used to increas the support of the lemmings! By the end of november or the beginning of december, the 52 will be up over 65%! Watch!The dems just don’t have the wherewithall or the balls to take on this bastard. What is inconcievable is that the fools seem willing to accept that an Aerial Bombardment does not constitute a declaraction of war. Such a level of ignorance deserves to get what is coming. If there is a world 50 or a 100 years from now, hustorians will point out the blatant insanity of this administration.
If anyone thinks for one second that Iran will meekly bow to the liar, they just don’t understand what is going to happen.
Bomb Iran.
And they’ll do it to, because the media is letting them get away with it.
Meanwhile we sit back and allow Egypt to re-start their nuclear program without a peep from the Bushies.
The propaganda is ubiquitous. It is not just cable news, it is everywhere. Discovery channel is doing all sorts of weird biblical nonsense. The history channel alternates between WWII stuff and middle east stuff. Everywhere Americans look they are being told that they must go to war with eevvvvvvuuuuuuullllllllll Muslims.
‘Mission Accomplished’ by MSM…to make public believe Iran is Evil I tell ya and a great big threat to well whatever. Bush and Cheney can blab all they want about Iran but as long as the media goes goes along with the insanity without any questions then of course the public is going to believe this crap. So it’s no surprise that so many believe we should or could bomb Iran…with no consequences to us.
The sellout of msm is a lot scarier than bush/cheney because they are conduit that shapes public opinion, tells it what to believe.
I support the idea (not in practice) of a draft – a US national service draft. Not a US military draft. Certainly not at this time.
If a draft is implemented, it will be you and I that pay for it – in blood and flesh and misery.
You know how these – I don’t even know how to express myself about how fucked up these people are- avoid serving, at all (or no) cost to themselves or their families. Fuck that. Any draft would be a disaster while these republicans are in office.
I say, no draft, lets go for TREASON and MALFEASANCE.
Say, what’s in that man-sized safe of his anyway?
Oh, and do not get discouraged by some stupid poll. Education is key – keep up the good work for the cause of good. Oh we have a long row to hoe, but hoe it we will.
Zogby is merely repeating an old finding here, that Americans are easily duped. Rove based his career on this principle, and we got a dimwit president as a consequence of its validity.
Media and the media empire includes organizations which take polls. I’m not saying they have to do something underhanded or anything but if you ask 100 people, 90 of them couldn’t locate Iran on the map.
All the rest is just Pavlovian dog conditioning. I don’t care if Iran has nukes, I’m far more worried about stormtroopers marching down Main Street forcing people out of their homes.
i was actually rather astonished when i saw these poll results for the first time earlier today, i thought, what a nation of fools and nincompoops. do americans have some genetic learning disablity? are there damaging and mind altering rays coming out of everyone’s TV sets as they sit there for 3-5 hours each night? has the nation AND the government gone clinically insane??
booman has it right, a lot of this polling and people’s responses depend on what you ask and how you ask the question, and what info is included in the question that drives a certain answer.
bottom line is the american public is heavily indoctrinated. don’t kid yourselves kids, they’ve been drinking the mainstream media koolaid for a long long time…..
and it doesn’t help to have a hapless ‘opposition’ party that only asks how high when the 24% Man says, Jump!