Here are some links on FISA.
Emptywheel
Kagro X
mcjoan
Glenn Greenwald
digby
Jane Hamsher
These are the patriots that should be representing you in Congress instead of the bought and paid for corporate shills that we have there now.
Dodd should be taking to the Senate floor shortly (on C-SPAN2) to draw his line in the sand. If you have any information, or anything to say, provide it here.
FYI – Jane’s piece over at FDL calling on Edwards to step up to the leadership role on FISA has gotten 796 DIGGS
Edwards will be on Countdown tonight.
Dodd is speaking now.
brilliant opening statement…no notes…extemporaneous speaking …dodd’s on fire.
lTMF’sA
no cable, what’s up?
does c-span.org have it?
All I see is someone from DOJ talking about DNA when I click on “gavel to gavel coverage of the senate”
While I fully support Dodd’s filibuster … I wouldn’t want any of those bloggers representing me in Congress.
The only one of those links that is even really worth reading is Glenn Greenwald – and that’s only because he put a good link in one of his updates. (Digby mostly riffs off Glenn in her post and does cite that update.)
WHY wouldn’t I want those bloggers representing me in Congress? Those bloggers aren’t focused on what we are probably REALLY going to end up with even if Telcom immunity gets taken out. But I guess if Telcom Immunity gets taken out all those bloggers get to pat themselves virtually on the backs by e-mail to each other and tell themselves how powerful they are. Something easy for the public to understand that they can point to and say “look how great WE are, look what WE did.” And what will be the end result – the Telcoms will have to pay some fines, we’ll know what the Bush administration did and … nothing else. Knowledge is good but not in exchange for a bad law that we have to live with forever.
I wouldn’t vote for any of them to represent me.
I would vote for the commenter that Glenn Greenwald links to in his second update:
Here’s the link he is talking about. THIS person has his priorities straight:
If all those high profile bloggers don’t start talking about the radical and invasive new powers that we could end up with and if we DO end up with them but they ballyhoo the deletion of telcom immunity – they aren’t any better than the current congress.
I’ll take any of those bloggers over any of the Republicans and the vast majority of Democratic senators.
Not me – I see no difference between them and the people who voted for the FISA revision last August. Why? Because last week when it looked like Harry Reid wasn’t going to do anything on a new bill and just try to pass an extension of that August bill — these people said that was a victory. Last August it was the worst bill ever passed. But extending it for a couple of years? No problem. That’s a victory.
That makes them no different than Republicans and Dems who voted for it.
I can’t even begin to express my disgust for the A-List bloggers on this issue.
it was an extension of a month.
18 months.
with all due respect, you have to start somewhere. if you want to bring legislation to the fore that supports the foundations, ie: the constitution, focusing on the immunity provision accomplishes that. if the bill passes with immunity there is zero chance that the egregious provisions will ever receive a review.
you may well view this issue through a lens that differs significantly from mine, but the immunity provision, like it or not is the starting point.
as to your comment…“I wouldn’t want any of those bloggers representing me in Congress.”…l am in agreement with boo.
lTMF’sA
Due respect, they don’t have to pass anything. If they pass nothing the August revisions expire and we go back to the old FISA. No immunity. None of these new provisions that are so problematical.
So I have no idea what you are talking about when you say:
I don’t have to start anywhere if I don’t want or need new legislation. I’m perfectly happy to let the August amendments expire and go back to what we had before.
as am l, as l have made clear to my senator, harry reid and others…but that ain’t gonna happen.
lTMF’sA
Then if it isn’t going to happen we should be fighting for the best bill we can get. And that means educating the public about what should and shouldn’t be in the bill. The only thing the blogosphere has been blogging about for MONTHS now is immunity.
It isn’t a start, it’s an end. Once those other provisions get into a long term bill they are there forever. They won’t go away. They won’t be declared unconstitutional because this court won’t find that anybody has standing to bring a suit. They will be there forever.
The A-List bloggers have been terrible on this issue.
If Senator Dodd can filibuster the bill into oblivion that would be great. But even he only seems to be concerned about Telcom immunity.
as if the blogosphere has a great influence on public opinion, eh.
the problem , as l see it isn’t the blogosphere’s fault. those of us here have a tendeny to project our knowledge of the realities of the situation, as we see them, upon the public at large.
have you seen anything in the msm that would lead you to believe that that same public gives a tweo penny damn about this? l haven’t.
l’d prefer that the damn thing go to oblivion, but like l said above, it ain’t gonna happen.
screw the a list bloggers, that’s not the issue. keeping these allegations in the courts and subject to scrunity is.
my final 2¢
l have a pre-caucus meeting to attend.
thanks for your input, l respect your opinion, although we disagree on this.
later
lTMF’sA
thanks dada
(and another reason I dislike the lauding of those bloggers is because like you I don’t think the blogosphere has great influence on public opinion. I don’t think they have much influence at all but they sure like to pretend they do).
Come back with good pre-caucus stories.
honestly Mary, you wouldn’t feel that way if you knew how hard they (we) have been riding the senate staff on these issues. It’s been cruel it has been so severe.
The reason teleco immunity is the main focus is that the president has promised to veto any bill that has it…a threat we take at face value.
If we succeed in stripping teleco, it won’t matter what else is in the bill. If the filibuster is successful, it won’t matter what is in the bill.
And, most importantly, if the truth ever come out, we’ll have plenty of momentum to fix anything that is put into any bill, just as the Church Commission created the environment for the FISA law in the first place.
Everything is riding on teleco immunity.
However, it’s simply not true that we haven’t been focused on the other aspects of the bill. We’ve been working closely with the ACLU at every point in this process…relying on their expertise to explain both the law and Senate procedure.
We have been talking to Reid’s office almost everyday. It hasn’t been satisfactory, obviously. But we’re talking.
If you knew what has been going on, you’d be ready to donate to a new Mt. Rushmore for these folks, even if you don’t respect their influence or sense of self-importance.
“If you knew what has been going on”
Do tell.
I like that. If I only “knew”.
But isn’t the whole point that I’m not supposed to know? Isn’t the whole point to mislead the netroots community into thinking that all of this stuff just happens …. oh, what is the word that will be used … oh, I know. Organically. That’s right. It just “organically” happens. One blogger has an idea and then magically everybody is writing about it and suddenly Congress does something. LOOK how powerful those bloggers are!
No. This doesn’t make me feel differently. I look to bloggers for honesty in their blogging. And I look for bloggers to have some respect for their readers. There are many reasons why this current FISA bill is atrocious and honest bloggers would have discussed those with their readers. At least Glenn took a bit of time in his update to do it. The fact is that this is a strategy with some risk. The risk is that George Bush looks at the bill and decides not to veto it because he figures that by the time the whole story comes out he’ll be out of office and everyone will want to move on. That’s the risk. You may not think there’s much of a risk but you have to admit that the risk exists.
And honest bloggers would explain to their readers that there is a risk that if they remove the Telcom Immunity but George Bush doesn’t veto this bill that they’ve given away our rights for the foreseeable future. Because then maybe there would be some move to fix the rest of the bill before it gets sent to George Bush and we hold our breath to see if he does what we want him to do.
No. I have no respect for those people because they have no respect for me.
there’s a risk that a bill could pass without immunity and that Bush would pass it. That risk is about .000000000000001%.
Do you know what we’re up against? The majority of Democrats are going to vote for cloture, and a minority will vote against the good amendments (but enough to kill them). The bill that goes to the president will have immunity and it will have the worst traits of the Intelligence version of the bill. Feingold might get one minor amendment passed, and Feinstein and Specter might succeed in transferring liability to the government. But that’s it. You want me to lie to you and say we’re going to succeed?
The only way we succeed is if Obama and Clinton show real leadership and not just lip service and they tell the caucus what to do. Our strategy is the right one.
What part did you miss about my very first sentence in my very first comment? I support this effort.
Not one part of your comment is responsive to what I said about their ultimate dishonesty and lack of respect to their readers.
There is absolutely no reason why what you said in the last two comments can’t and shouldn’t be said on the front page of dKos and on Firedoglake and everywhere else. The only reason that they don’t do it is because they don’t respect their readers. They like to throw out terms like “netroots activists” when they want their readers to do things but they really only think of them as a great herd to be mobilized to make calls and to give money. For good? Yes. Partly. But also for the greater glory of themselves. AFter all – the power goes to those who can mobilize the herd.
Sorry. You don’t convince me on them. I don’t respect them.
I wonder what I’m doing differently that you respect me?
You didn’t put yourself in the list.
Apparently you don’t want to be on Mt. Rushmore.
Look, you don’t blog about FISA except peripherally. They do. They hold themselves out to be experts in the blogosphere about FISA. Readers should expect that they are getting a complete and full analysis of FISA when they read them. They aren’t. How can you not understand what I’m saying?
They aren’t doing anything much differently from my perspective. I haven’t written about FISA lately, but it was the major focus of my writing in early December. I have been writing more (and better) about FISA, the Church Committees, and the actual history of this shit since Dec. 2005, when it became clear that the NSA went all Nixonian on us.
I’m in all these conversations that they are in. My input is as important and respected as their input.
I’m totally on board with this strategy.
As for this supposed dishonesty, I honestly don’t read much firedoglake, and I don’t know who else you’re talking about.
The biggest battle in all of this is to be able to master enough of the procedural stuff to know what we’re talking about. And it doesn’t help when some senate staffers are lying to you and others are contradicting each other.
The ACLU has done their best to keep us informed about implications of the law in both the Judiciary and the Intelligence bills, and on some of the likely amendments. But writing about it is easier said than done. I’m not a lawyer and a lot of it is really beside the point.
The core issue is that the FISA law sucks and should not pass. Yes, it would be better to extend than to make it permanent. And, yes, the best thing of all is to let it lapse if they won’t let us do a minor fix without all the other crap and immunity.
So, why write about all this crap when all you really need to know is that the filibuster should be upheld? It’s not for my glory that I present it this way. It’s my best judgment and my best ability under the circumstances.
I can’t believe you don’t see how ethically challenged this whole thing is. I’ve lost respect for you there.
You have a group of people who have spent time building up trust in a community of readers – a trust built on a premise that the blogosphere is different than the MSM, that bloggers are committed to getting the true story, that bloggers want to dig in and find out what is going on behind the words of the press releases and the newspaper articles. That they are outside the system and that’s why they can be trusted.
In the past, politicians have had strategies for getting things done. Things like going to war with Iraq. Part of the strategy is to give interviews with the media that only give part of the story. They tell only what is necessary to get the result they want. We have constantly criticized the MSM for not digging in and getting the whole story. We have constantly criticized the media for allowing itself to be used and thereby allowing the American public to be used by groups who have an agenda.
You and your group of friends have an agenda. The fact that your agenda is good is irrelevant. You have an agenda and you’ve cut out the middle man. You don’t go give interviews to other bloggers who are out of the loop and use them to get to their readers so you can use the readers to achieve your agenda. You just write the propaganda yourself. Whatever is good for your cause goes in; whatever doesn’t advance your cause stays out.
Again, I have no problem with the agenda. This time. But where is the line? Once you have destroyed this trust by not giving the whole story so that the reader can make a fully informed decision but instead giving them only a partial story that should easily lead them to do what you want them to do, how do you ever get that trust back. You wonder why the blogosphere is so fucked up? Because somehow the blogosphere came to mean only certain bloggers and the rest of us are just around to be used. It wasn’t supposed to be that way but I guess we should always believe Orwell.
I’m not really sure where you are getting all this grievance from.
There are plenty of people that did a lot of work (including me) educating people about exactly what was going on with both versions of the bill and all the procedure back in December. Now Reid is sneaking up on us with this bill faster that we thought.
The bottom line is that there is an immediate goal here, which is to mobilize pressure on the presidential candidates to do more than give lip service, but actually lead on this filibuster. That is a solid strategy at this point. That’s what we want people to do.
When it gets to the point of voting on amendments, we’ll be telling people which amendments are good and not and why.
Why do you think there is some kind of subterfuge here?
Do you want to discuss the ins and out of Diane Feinstein’s amendments? Or go over the problems with the Intelligence Bill again?
Like I said, the downside to stripping immunity is almost nil. That’s just not what our problem is right now. The Democrats are going to pass a FISA bill, with immunity. We’re not worried that they might pass one without it. If we get that far it will already be a victory far greater than we could have hoped for. And, as I said, if there is no immunity, we’ll stand a good chance of getting to the bottom of this in the next administration and fixing the problem in a good and sustainable fashion. You aren’t suggesting we don’t take the risk, are you?
Mary, here is the reality of the situation, from Wired News:
In this environment, I have a hard time squaring your beef with the circumstances. The average blogreader can’t do all that much besides let their voice be heard by Congress. Bloggers that have the ear of the congressional players are working their asses off, and your response is contempt. I just disagree.
We disagree. Let’s leave it at that. You have not changed my mind.
right. that’s the whole battle. let it lapse.
i wasn’t getting your logic until this post.
I agree totally. Let it go back to plain old FISA.
that was supposed to be in response to a different comment.
Okay. I’m a little confused as to where things stand right now. I take a little nap and find that so much seems to have happened while I was asleep. Or has it? I missed whatever action happened in the senate on C-Span2. Where are things right now?
Is there going to be a filibuster starting tomorrow? Is it already over? I don’t know. Does anyone know what time this is all supposed to be picked up again tomorrow? I’ll be watching if I only knew.