In the midst of the inherently heated internecine fighting that goes with primary season, I’d like to take a minute to get some honest and hopefully well-reasoned opinions from folks in the Clinton camp about why they support their candidate. Let me start by saying that I’m not looking for a debate nor am I encouraging one — we have plenty of that going on already. I’m just genuinely curious about the motivations of Clinton supporters.
First, the full disclosure: I’m an Obama supporter because a) I don’t trust the Clintons and they aren’t liberal enough for me, and b) the candidate I really wanted to win, John Edwards, just dropped out of the race. For me, it’s just a matter of choosing the lesser of two evils — Obama has no real appeal for me in and of himself, though I don’t notice any serious red flags in his record, either.
That said, I’m not terribly interested in the opinions of people who support Clinton as the lesser of two evils, because that devolves pretty quickly into a discussion of Obama. I want to hear from people who support Clinton because they really want her to win. And I want to know why. What is it that you really like about Hillary Clinton, both as a person and in terms of her policies? What do you think that Clinton will do as president that you look forward to?
Let me reiterate that I’m not looking for a debate here. I just want to learn what you think.
Because by some freak of nature, I’ve lost the human ability to tell when someone completely disingenuous, driven by an absolutely unmistakable lust for personal power, is lying to my face telling me how she stands for “change” or gives a fuck about the “problems” of the people in this country.
I am so done with this woman’s/this family’s schtick.
I can’t say I disagree but I think you just peed in eodell’s pool.
It is inadvertent. At this age.
I agree with you, but I don’t think that I would have been quite that, um…descriptive. :>)
Believe it or not, I’m interested in what is said and will refrain from jumping in. If I really wanna know, I really have to read and absorb it.
Well, I was going to send in a genuine reply detailing some of my reasons, but I see that the previous posts have already exemplified some of those reasons so well – including the incredibly immature, irrational, non-objective, hysterical attitudes towards her.
we can have a civil discourse. Ignore the previous posts. Let me hear yours. I’m curious.
do take a fresh page.
Indeed. Speak your mind. I really want to know, and I’m not going to flame anyone for it.
Yeah. Don’t let me stop serious posters. Sometimes, immaturity just gets out.
Honestly — I want to spew every time I listen to her. I’d go McCain as an alternative. And it is not a male/female thing. For me. Run the governor of Kansas for FSM’s sake. Did you hear that woman. What a genius.
Please do not reply in kind. If you have something of substance to say, say it!
OK, I”ll bite but I don’t expect to be heard here.
I started out as a rabid Obama supporter – loved him and his message from the moment I heard his speech at the DNC. I was thrilled with the Iowa results. Sent him money and everything. And then….. things took an ugly turn. I’ve been shocked at how the tone of his campaign went into the gutter and, I’ll be honest, his supporters in the netroots as well as the mainstream media have simply become insufferable to me at this point.
I’m an academic and a scientist – I hope that doesn’t make me sound arrogant. I only mention it because I want to give you a sense of the things I value in political discourse – rationality, objectivity, mature analysis of the issues, etc. I don’t see much of these attitudes when it comes to asessing these candidates on the merits. Perhaps my background and values just don’t mesh well.
I certainly grant you that there are many things to argue against in Hillary’s record, particularly her vote for the war. But, please – she is not the anti-christ and he is not the messiah.
Further, I find lately that Obama and many of his supporters veer heavily towards hypocrisy as well – the politics of hope and unity don’t typically include hate-mongering in my book. I think this last is the thing that I have objected to the most. One expects swiftboating of Hillary or Obama from the right-wing once the primary is over. I certainly did not foresee it from within our very own party.
…because I’m an Obama supporter–but I hear you.
Now, this will be the last comment because I really want to consider what is being said/written.
OK sciencetype, I’m disappointed cuz I gave a recommend to this diary in an effort-not to have it scroll off – perhaps bring forward some dialog with Hillary supporters.
You’ve roiled against Obama on the perception that “he took his campaign in the gutter” Think you have the campaigns reversed.
On the contrary, the fault lies with the Clintons, especially Bill. He has hurt her campaign, took it to the gutter. see LATimes link below.
You have not positioned the WHY of your support for Hillary. Is it nostalgia for the Clinton years, or the offer of a two-fer? What current policies draw you to Hillary?
From my perspective, the Los Angeles Times, Sunday, February 3, 2008, sums it up on the choice we face.
BTW, That Bill damaged Hillary’s campaign, to the point where she has admitted and is quoted saying “I can control Bill he got a little carried away”, is not a “fairy tale” But ABCNews tells us he’s back:
Bill Clinton Blames Kennedy for No Child Left Behind Flaws
can’t make this up!
Well, you’re right about my neglecting to state positive reasons to support Clinton. I only talked about my reasons for being driven away from the Obama campaign and didn’t talk about what to do next. Edwards dropped out. I feel very disappointed in the Obama campaign, and yet I admit to not being passionately excited for Clinton. But I will vote for her and hope that we do better than we have for the last 8 years on domestic issues at least, and possibly also foreign policy.
We’ll have to respectfully agree to disagree about who dragged this campaign into the gutter. While I would never argue that there is no fault with the Clintons (silly comments about MLK and LBJ, etc etc), I’ve followed this primary season very closely and the first/worst thing I saw occurred from Jesse Jackson, Jr. after Clinton won New Hampshire – a calculated injection of racism wherein he ridiculed Hillary’s tears and suggested she didn’t cry for Katrina victims where tears would have been better served.
I was watching TV nearly nonstop, and I missed that episode. I’m not questioning your honesty – I’m just wondering how many people even saw that if I, Miss-Nose-Pressed-to-the-TV-set never saw or heard that until now.
Do you have some specific instances of Obama’s campaign going into the gutter first (as opposed to in response to an attack)?
This will be the end of my comments here at this site, as I think I probably should have known better than to enter here at all. But, I do want to share a remarkable diary that I just encountered over at dkos that explains my feelings better than I can. It is as if this diarist read by heart and mind and then wrote everything I could not articulate myself – I’m talking about the second half of the diary in particular. The only difference I have with him/her is that he/she is obviously a better person than I. He/she will apparently rise above the vile divisiveness of Obama’s supporters and vote for him anyway. I am not big enough to do it. I won’t. I take the liberty of copying the diarist’s comments below (I hope that is not problematic – I am a bit blog-naive) and now I’ll sign off. Good luck to you with the primary.
_______
Begin Copied Diary:
So It’s Come To This: Barack Obama For President 2008
by phenry
Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 05:31:47 PM PST
My intention, after John Edwards dropped out of the race, was to go into Washington’s caucus on February 9 as Uncommitted. We have two fine candidates, who would both make fine presidents, and with the loss of the only candidate who really spoke passionately about the economic divisions in this country I was in no hurry to make up my mind. Since then, I’ve spent a bit of time thinking about the presidential race as it stands today, and though I’m under no illusions that anyone really cares what a nobody like me thinks, I’ve decided that the choice we face now, and the outcome thereof, is too significant to justify remaining officially undecided. One week from tomorrow, therefore, I intend to caucus as a supporter of Barack Obama.
Please, withhold your applause until the end. You may not like what I have to say.
* phenry’s diary :: ::
*
I’m on record as believing that anyone we nominate this year will beat any Republican in a walk. Either I’m right about that, or I’m wrong. If I’m wrong, that means the Republican could win, and we need to nominate the candidate who has the best chance of preventing that from happening. Even if I’m right, I’d much rather we sweep into office with a broad mandate than slip by in a 2000-like squeaker. In both cases, I believe the clear choice needs to be Sen. Obama.
I retain a great deal of respect and affection for Hillary Clinton, who for the past sixteen years has been subject to a staggering amount of the kind of abuse I would not wish on my worst enemy, from people who by and large are not fit to kiss her feet. She is bright, competent, and a shrewd politician, and though we disagree on a number of issues, I’d be proud to support her and cast my vote for her. But the single biggest drawback of her campaign, as we’ve known for the last three years, is that she is guaranteed to energize a demoralized, disillusioned Republican base. And if possible, demoralized and disillusioned is how I’d like the Republican base to be.
Of course, we can’t forget how successful the Republicans were at energizing sentiment against John Kerry, one of the most inoffensive creatures ever to walk God’s green earth. If they could do it to Kerry, they could do it to Obama too. And, frankly, he doesn’t strike me as a person who deals with criticism well, a trait that has manifested in the debates as well as in the mini-tantrums his campaign threw over attacks from the Clinton camp that–face it–were like the touch of a feather compared to what he’ll be facing from the GOP this fall. Barack Obama really, really needs to learn to suck it up and play hardball in the general election. (Actually, he could do a lot worse than to hire Clinton’s oppo-research and rapid response teams; those folks play for keeps.) Still, we face a choice between a candidate that the Republican base hasn’t yet learned to hate and one that they absolutely loathe with red-faced, spittle-flecked fury. Nothing is worse than a Republican troglodyte who’s feeling pissed off and full of beans, and I can’t imagine not doing everything we can to neutralize them.
The apparent consolidation of support around John McCain as the presumptive Republican nominee also lends a certain urgency to this choice. McCain is a likable, charismatic man with a compelling personal story and a great deal of potential to attract supporters across the political spectrum. He’s also 72 years old, and as anyone who’s watched him on the stump or in a debate can attest, he comes across these days as tired, unenthusiastic, and even depressed, like an emergency room doctor who has terrible news for you about your spouse’s condition. We have an opportunity to give the American people a choice between a worn-out-seeming elderly man and a young, energetic figure with a message of hope. The last time we saw a contest like this was in 1996, between Bill Clinton and Bob Dole, and it did not end well for Bob Dole.
So now we come to the factor that, though it didn’t dissuade me from making this choice, has certainly led me to dread it. Califlander, in what must surely be considered one of the best comments posted to Daily Kos last month, quoted a professor of his/hers:
Nothing will turn a man away from a good cause more than the thought of the jerks he will have to stand next to at the barricades.
Among the ranks of the Obama supporters here are some who are absolutely the worst, the worst, people I have ever encountered on the left side of the aisle in more than twenty years of being interested and involved with politics. I don’t choose my words lightly, and yes, as a matter of fact I do mean to frame it in terms of morals and personal character. And no, frankly, it’s not the same for every candidate. The people I’m talking about have violated just about every social norm this site has, repeatedly and maliciously. They display all the hallmarks of a cult, and not a happy-go-lucky cult like the Hare Krishnas, either. No person may criticize Barack Obama and escape their wrath. (Just ask Paul Krugman… or Joe Wilson.) The baseless, carelessly-slung insinuations of racism that were SOP for the Obama militia for a while toward the end of the year remain an open sore upon this community, which has worked so hard for so long opposing racism.
I’d rather not give names, though I can’t imagine I’d need to.
If I may now address this small subset of Obama’s fan base specifically: What the fuck is wrong with you people? If your goal is to get more people to support Obama, why would you go about it in the most alienating manner possible? Do you not even see the flaw in that strategy? What could possibly lead you to believe that the scorched-earth, mau-mau tactics you’ve employed for months accomplish anything other than to shame you, and by extension, the candidate you claim to support?
This diary is not an attempt to bury the hatchet. I don’t like you and I never will. My support for Barack Obama comes not because of you, but in spite of you. The primary season will be over soon enough, and we’ll all be on the same side again, working toward the same goal, but you’ll never be able to erase what you’ve done and, indeed, what you are. I have a long memory and I hold grudges, and I doubt very much that I’m alone.
I say this not in an attempt to redeem you; it’s too late for that. I hope instead to make an example out of you. In a few weeks’ time, I hope, we will all be Obama supporters. And if that happens, I can’t think of anything worse for our candidate than to see more people turn out like you.
DailyKos opposing racism? Since when? That’s laughable. Really, really funny to me.
But it’s interesting in that I could have written that same diary about Edwards’ supporters and definitely Clinton supporters over at MyDD. Eye of the beholder and all that, I guess.
I regret that I have but one 4 to give for that comment.
It deserves about 40 more of them but there’s no chance of that here.
Like the original poster, I’ll vote for Obama if that’s the only choice… but I’ll be leaving before inauguration if he wins.
Mob rule is horrendous regardless of which side the mobs are on, and judge lynch doesn’t care WHO hangs from the nooses.
I asked a simple question – two, really, about specific points you made. You answered with something that had nothing to do with what I had asked, which is, frankly, a little bizarre. But whatever.
I desperately want someone to make a good case for me to support Clinton, since she may yet be our nominee. This certainly isn’t it.
with all due respect, l returned to this diary on the premise of your statement: …“the things I value in political discourse – rationality, objectivity, mature analysis of the issues, etc…” hoping for a clear and definitive exposition on why you were a clinton supporter.
my opinion of her campaign and qualifications aside, l am disappointed in the apparent lack of reasons, whatever their basis, of of any substance.
unfortunately, you have opted to be evasive and disseminating, with few exceptions, as has nearly everyone l’ve had one on one conversations regarding their support has been.
like AP above, l wanted to hear what you have to say. l would welcome a dialog about the differences between her and obama. sadly, it’s not here.
g’day.
lTMF’sA
I just got off the phone with a woman in my precinct who emphasized she was voting for Clinton because she was a woman. I said, well, I’m a woman too, but I want the right woman. She had other reasons, but she returned again and said her primary reason was that she was a woman.
So that’s really genuinely out there. I think voting for someone because of gender, race, or religion is a really stupid thing to do. Nonetheless, that’s how some people vote.
You’re saying that the racist from Clinton surrogates the entire previous month (starting around Dec. 12th), didn’t seem ‘gutterish’ to you? Very interesting.
again sciencetype gives confirmation to the adage that “it’s not what is said, it’s what is heard”
I question the news source. Fox? Even Drudge? the distorters.
Who think it’s okay to say, “That’s all in your mind.”, ya know, because they didn’t hear it. That’s psychotic Taylor Marsh has got the gullible believing that Clinton’s racism is Obama’s fault. That’s truly amazing to me. Someone just make’s up stories about a Senator, like right wing bloggers do, and pretty soon, people who want to believe just ignore the lack of facts or proof. Next thing you know, you’re accused of being “gutterish” when you call someone out on their racist attacks.
That takes some serious mindbending to do.
I, too, am an academic and a scientist. Because of my particular expertise, I came up against Bruce Babbitt (Secretary of the Interior) as part of my work. He figured out how to eviscerate the ESA (Endangered Species Act) and the CWA (Clean Water Act). Federal employees were ordered not to communicate with me, on penalty of losing their jobs. What Babbitt did to Native Americans is scandalous.
Babbitt couldn’t have been doing this without the approval of Bill Clinton who was very development and business friendly. Anyone who thinks Bill Clinton will not bring his policies to bear on a Hillary White House isn’t thinking things through. All one needs to do is read the front page article in the NYT on 1/31 about his wheeling and dealing in Kazakhstan to have an idea of what Hillary–whether she wants to or not–will bring to the White House.
I realize that my comment isn’t what the diarist solicited, but my personal experience is such that I couldn’t restrain myself from commenting.
Honestly, it doesn’t really matter much anymore. JRE is unfortunately out and I don’t care for either remaining flavor of corporate Democratic candidate. I was an Edwards supporter and gladly contributed a small donation. I’m not sure exactly where I’m going from here.
I know that this is not what you were seeking but I needed to vent a bit.
Amen.
Gravel, Dodd, Kucinich, and now Edwards – all gone. Guess its time for the old tried and true voting method again…
Gravel’s still in.
Fat chance he’ll be on my ballot in May.
Indiana’s one of the tougher States to qualify.
Just thin on it a bit and it is undeniable, Hillary is apparently habitually unaware of REALLY BIG things going on around her. At any time in the last 15 years, she’s been in the process of being thoroughly duped by friend and foe alike.
From Bill’s philandering to the her silly explanation of her vote for the Iraq War, Hillary has time and time handled it in the same way: She is totally unaware of very significant things going on all around her that are pretty much obvious to everyone else.
She’s so fit for office, I can’t get over it.
Her latest healthcare scheme is yet another example. The very idea that her mandated healthcare proposal is anything more than the completion of the Corporatist takeover of America is naive, over-trusting and yes, ridiculous. Given what we have all lived through the last too many years, do you really think it is time to force people to patronize the villains of Michael Moore’s “Sicko”?
“But that’s not what it intends to do!”, you say?
But that is what it DOES.
Her campaign slogan should be: ‘No WAY! Really?’ – making her official song ‘Suddenly I See’ all the more perfect for her.
If she’s not then she just chooses to lie completely on both subjects.
Clueless Bimbette or Grand Deceiver, either option crosses her off the list.
I don’t know if I support Hillary or not. I really think I’ll sit out Tuesday or maybe throw my vote away on someone who has already dropped out.
If I do vote for someone still in the race, it will be for Hillary because I like her health care plan better than Obama’s.
I really don’t care. Neither gives me any hope for this country.
if you really don’t care, does it matter if you throw your vote away?
After 7 yrs of Bush, the experience of the last 2 elections, I can’t imagine it doesn’t really matter. all we’ve endured.
Since you’re leaning to Hillary, be on alert – she’s endorsed by Bush..BushCheney are very comfortable leaving her their legacy. She’ll preserve it well. So expect more of the same.
On the health care plan from both camps. I suggest you do a review.
BTW, Ann Coulter announced she’ll be campaigning for Hillary since she’s more conservative than McCain.
Need I say more?
Thanks for the suggestion, butI’ve done the research on the health care and I prefer Hillary’s plan.
But I really don’t care which of them gets the nod. Yes, either would be better than Bush, but that standard is well what I would like to see for this country.
Well, you can’t vote for the war and disown the results. And you can’t vote to confirm one of its architects of the war as Secretary of State and disown the results either.
As for your comment about Coulter, why would anything she says influence me one way or the other.
If you are happy with Obama, great.
go with the more coercive of the plans. Your choice.
Published on Friday, January 20, 2006 by the Columbus Free Press (Ohio)
little doubt who she’d have been likely to support, imo.
lTMF’sA
I would have liked to support Dennis Kusinich, but there was not much chance he could stay in the race. I like John Edwards a lot, however, if his wife was running instead it would have been a no brainer.
I can support either Hillary or Barak, but I am leaning towards the Hillary. Far from perfect, she is. But so is young Mr. Obama, and I don’t hold his age against him at all, I wish we had a lot more younger people in the congress and everywhere else in office.What I see in Hillary that I like is her command of all the topics and issues. I do not confuse political speak with actual truth of what or how any candidate will do anything.
And the very smart Hillary is running ads in Idaho. Idaho? Now that is just stunning. Idaho has been ignored by the democrats for years upon years. The ad she is running here really makes her look good, makes her look human and caring, makes her look like she is presidential and knows what she is doing. She even mentions that what any candidate says in a campaign cycle in contrast to what they can and will actually do once in office is not always the same thing. In saying that in the way that she does, in a non-accusatory way, she seems to be telling us she knows that we are too smart to be taken any by any of the rhetoric. It is a very effective ad. It should play well here in Idaho and could earn her Idaho’s small 23 delegates. But who knows, 23 delegates might make a big difference in a close race.
As I said, I like them both. I would like to have them both heading our government. They each have a lot to offer. We will see how things play out.
What I know is unless we give the next president a congress and senate that will actually ACT on all of the things that need to be fixed, it isn’t going to matter much who gets the job.
executions lately.