One thing to remember with all the polls we’re seeing is that the result on Tuesday could depend more on differential regional turnout than anything else. And the polls have to guess about turnout. The last time Pennsylvania had a competitive statewide primary in the Democratic Party was in 2002, when Bob Casey and Ed Rendell faced off in the gubernatorial race. It pays to look at what determined the outcome.
Casey led in all but 10 of the state’s 67 counties, but those combined margins weren’t enough to close the huge gap Rendell built among the voters who knew him best…
Rendell was able to capitalize on a relatively heavy turnout in the Delaware Valley — 35 to 40 percent in Philadelphia itself, according to preliminary estimates — while Democrats elsewhere in the state were more inclined to stay home.
Mark Wolosik, who heads Allegheny County’s elections division, estimated the Democratic turnout would be approximately 28 percent. In the Democratic primary for governor four years ago, by contrast, Allegheny County’s turnout percentage was double Philadelphia’s.
Rendell amassed a 150,000-vote margin in his hometown — a margin roughly equal to his overall edge over Casey. Casey led in 57 of the state’s 67 counties, but not by enough to overcome Rendell’s Delaware valley totals. The Philadelphian won the surrounding suburbs by one double-digit margin after another — Montgomery by 42,000; Bucks by 34,000; Delaware by 32,000, and Chester by 17,000.
Rendell won because turnout in the Philly area was 7-10% higher than in the Pittsburgh area, even though four years earlier turnout had been twice as high in the Pittsburgh area as in the Philadelphia area. I don’t know what turnout model the different pollsters are using, but all the anecdotal evidence I am hearing is that the black community in Philadelphia is going to turnout like gangbusters. Will the pro-Clinton areas around Pittsburgh and Scranton have comparable turnout? I kind of doubt it.
There is a good reason to believe that Clinton’s areas will not turnout. Clinton has been running negative advertising in the areas of the state where she is strongest and using more neutral or positive ads in the areas of the state where she is weakest. Bob Casey wound up making a similar mistake in 2002, although for a different reason. The Rendell-Casey campaign was relentlessly negative, but the Philly market is so expensive that almost none of the negative ads were aired there.
Because the two candidates focused their TV spending in less expensive markets, Philadelphians saw less of the acidic exchanges that filled the airwaves elsewhere. It is axiomatic among political strategists that negative campaigning tends to suppress turnout. For the last three months, the barrage of negative ads was heaviest in the areas where Casey needed the biggest turnout.
Not all the signs are bad for Clinton. There are more undecided voters in her areas than there are in Obama’s areas. And that could lead to a late break to Clinton in the undecided vote.
In the so-called “T” region of the state (i.e., almost everything between Philly and Pittsburgh), Clinton leads 51-37 with 11% undecided; this is one of the few demographic groups sporting double-digit undecided.
Two other interesting cross-tabs with high undecideds also indicate the potential that undecided vote will break for Clinton. Among bowlers (24% of the electorate) and gun owners (38% of the electorate), Clinton leads big. She’s up 54-33 among bowlers and 53-28 among gun owners; There were 13% undec. among bowlers and 17% undec among gun owners.
I wouldn’t put a tremendous amount of stock in these crosstabs, as the poll has a sample of only 625 likely voters. But it shows a potential area of strength for Clinton. The important thing to remember is that no one knows how differential turnout is going to go, and it can be decisive.
Karen Walsh, Casey’s press secretary, said she wasn’t sure what to make of the numbers.
She said Casey had anticipated a Philadelphia turnout of roughly 30 percent. Reports of a 35 to 40 percent turnout confounded those hopes.
As Rendell’s lead reached 90,000 votes, Tom Gilhooley, a Scranton city councilman, declared, “That’s a wrap.”
I’m not quite ready to predict an Obama upset. What is concerning me is the consistency of polls showing Clinton ahead and Obama trapped at or below 45% of the vote. To be more accurate, I’m concerned that Clinton is polling so close to 50%. But…
I predict that Obama will benefit from extremely high turnout in the African-American community, very high turnout in Philly and its suburbs, a superior ground operation, and much greater enthusiasm among his supporters. I have been telling friends privately that if Obama is polling within three points he will win. Two of the last three polls out show him down by three, and the other has him down by five. In other words, it’s too close to call. I feel modestly more confident that Obama will win narrowly than I do that Clinton will break 10%, but the most likely scenario is that Clinton wins with a 1%-8% margin of victory.
In any case, Clinton’s hopes for a large popular vote victory seem unlikely to materialize.
Even with a ten-point win, Clinton’s not going to put too much of a dent in the popular vote, and whatever dent she would put on it will be wiped away (give or take a bit) by North Carolina.
I’m torn on it. I see Obama trapped in the low- to mid-40s. I’m inclined to think it’s not as close as many are hoping, but a part of me does think it’ll be a nail-biter and perhaps the decisive Obama victory. I’ll stick to my prediction of an eight-point win for Clinton unless I see Obama moving up to the high-40s.
Speak of the Devil, now Zogby’s got it at Obama 46-44 Clinton. Maybe God is slapping me in the face trying to get me to believe, or maybe it’s just another bad Zogby poll.
I think the better thing to look for is Clinton dropping away from 50%.
In other words, if Obama is trailing 45%-42% I feel a whole lot better than if he is trailing 48%-45%.
But it’s not as simple as the undecided vote, which may indeed break Clinton’s way. It’s more that a more squishy polling result (that has more play) indicates to me that she doesn’t have the strength of support she needs. It indicates she’ll lose the turnout battle. The closer I see her to 50% the less confident I am that she’ll lose the turnout battle.
Does that makes sense?
Yeah, I know what you mean. Zogby’s internals suggest squishy support for her, while I think Barack’s support is much harder. He’s apparently improving in Harrisburg and Pittsburgh, with an up-tick among white guys.
It’s going to come down to a question of whether he can drown her with Philly proper and a wide-enough margin in the Philly ‘burbs. If, rather than 42-45%, greater Philly turns out to be closer to 50%, I think he might just pull it off.
What kind of margin should we be looking for in those suburban counties? 55/45? 60/40?
at this point, only poll with any meaning is Tuesday’s vote.
I’m with BooMan that Obama is likely to upset.
I’ve been phone banking this morning in PA. (Don’t know the region in PA)been doing this for last 3 weeks and I can tell ya a surprise.
Unsolicited, I found some switching of Hillary supporters to Obama.
Typical men who I reached said: “I was for Hillary until she started slinging mud at Obama. That’s all she got.”
“My wife is in NY but she’s coming back to vote, we’re both voting for Obama.
or I got the wife for Obama who says she’ll be trying to convert her husband. (“ya know what I mean if he wants desert….”) can you spell peace?
Hillary supporters refuse to admit their support for her. I found one who said Hillary. Hmmmmm.
Hmm, I’m assuming you’re doing the online phone-banking from outside Penn? Isn’t that supposed to be calls to people the campaign thinks unlikely to vote for it?
yes doing it from list supplied online. I’m in Northern VT.
“Isn’t that supposed to be calls to people the campaign thinks unlikely to vote for it?”
I suppose; that’s why these findings confirm there’s a shift to Obama
Might offer some anecdotal evidence to support PPP’s new poll. Here’s hoping.
I don’t know if there is way to poll intensity of voter commitment, but Obama would win big-time on that score. His voters will crawl to the polls thru a snowstorm if they have to– HRC doesn’t have supporters who are anywhere near as determined. If it’s close, that could make the difference….
Then we hope that it snows?
:grin, run, and duck for cover:
It is becoming more apparent (reluctantly) that there is a different campaign forming this time around. The citizenry, at least the more vocal and involved citizenry, is first of all relying more and more on alternative sources for their news information. They are also responding more sctively than they have is past campaigns.If this holds true, then the pollsters are venturing into unchartered waters and if they continue to use dated methodology, their polling will not produce accurate results. If the primary season has given us any pattern, it is that “unpredictably” is the key word. Also, as you point out, the younger voter and the newly franchised voter does not appear to be easily categorised.
What does this portend? Well, just possibly, there might be a big surprise comming in this Pa Primary!
I tend to think in terms of Congressional District more than counties.
For example, Delaware Co. includes the city of Chester (don’t get confused and think Chester is in Chester Co.) and also the town of Darby. That’s where almost all the black voters are in DelCo. But they’ve been jacked into Bob Brady’s 1st Congressional District, allowing the 7th congressional district to be reliably Republican (until Sestak won it anyway in ’06).
But on election night our numbers are going to come in by county, not by CD.
Obama should look to break 70% in Philadelphia Co.
His next best county should be Montgomery, where he can hope to break 60%. Delaware Co. will be interesting and will depend a lot on turnout in Chester. He could get close to 60%. In Chester, I think he’ll get about 55-56%, and Bucks will be about the same.
Probably a county to keep an eye on is Berks, which included Reading, PA. It’s an area where Rendell got 64% of the vote.
Actually, I’ll just give you those numbers:
One way of looking at this is to shave 25-30 points off Rendell’s lead in all the counties except Berks and Philly. Obama’s numbers in Philly should be significantly lower than 79% and 64% in Berks, but maybe 10%, not 25-30%.
Can turnout for the spouse be any indicator? The news didn’t even announce that he was coming to the area.
Bill in Beaver County yesterday
The former president was greeted warmly by several hundred people. Clinton urged the crowd to vote for his wife, saying she is the only candidate with enough experience to create change in America.
Michelle in CMU earlier this month
So I hear this is a tough mike,” she said to the early afternoon crowd of 1,500 at Carnegie Mellon University’s Skibo Gymnasium
Hillary’s campaign already seems to be redefining expectations, claiming that any win at all for her is a decisive victory, even 50% + 1. Either they’re expecting a small but substantial win and want to be able to spin it as an Obama-slaying blow-out, or they’re expecting a very, very close election and want to be able to spin it to keep her in the race.
What’s really interesting is your speculation about turn-out. If I understand the process right, the number of delegates awarded for a county doesn’t change based on turn-out in that county, right? So if Obama-strong regions get massive turn-out and Clinton-strong regions get minimal turn-out, it’s entirely possible that Obama could win the popular vote but lose the delegate vote. In which case, many of Clinton’s arguments come back to bite her in the ass.
Delegate apportionment is based on the number of Democratic votes in 2004 and 2006, by congressional district, not county. So, for example, congressional district nine only has 3 delegates, while congressional district one had 9 delegates.
What this means is that Clinton can win distict nine by huge, huge margins, but she can’t get more than one delegate out of it.
But if Obama wins district one with 83%, he will get a 8-1 split.
Many of Hillary’s best districts have four or six delegates, meaning she is unlikely to get a delegate out of them.
So, it’s unlikely that she will win the delegate battle over and beyond what her share of the popular vote.
However, it is likely that Clinton will win more delegate splitting districts than she loses. The more polarized the contest, the better she’ll do. If she wins 4 delegate districts with 62.5% of the vote, she will earn 3-1 splits. She may get a 4-1 split in one or two districts. That’s where the delegate race will be decided.
For example, here in Chester Co. we have six delegates. Obama should win, but not by enough to win a 4-2 split. One district over, in Delaware Co., they have 7 delegates. Obama will almost certainly win by a good margin, but is unlikely to get more than a 4-3 split.
Hillary will benefit by more polarization because she will lead in more districts, and therefore large margins will give her more splits than Obama will receive.
The popular vote can go either way, but the polarization within those numbers is the key.
This is essentially bribes for the inner city machine. Obama has reportedly decided not to play with this situation. I wonder if this is a good idea. He needs massive Philly-Pitt turnout, and this money is apparently a key to strong efforts. I understand the moral question here, but that may not even be a correct view. After all, you are essentially hiring GOTV efforts, and what’s the problem with that?
I LOVE THIS!! My doorbell just rang and it was an Obama volunteer.
He came here from Chicago to help us!
I’m so tempted to canvas with him but my back won’t permit it any longer.