One of Chris Bowers’ pet peeves, and I admire him for it, is when Democrats justify their actions by reference to the political ramifications of their actions. A recent example was provided by Steny Hoyer:
In an interview with Politico on Monday, Hoyer called the FISA legislation a “significant victory” for the Democratic Party – one that neutralized an issue Republicans might have been able to use against Democrats in November while still, in his view, protecting the civil liberties of American citizens.
Bowers cringes whenever he sees Democrats use such nakedly calculating and defensive rationales for their actions. So should we all, because it reeks of weakness. But there is another pet peeve Bowers has, and that is the use of Republican talking points, or ‘framing’ issues in Republican terms. Here is where there is a major divergence in our thinking. And it’s difficult to explain because I agree with the stupidity of using Republican frames. I just think the issue’s importance is grossly exaggerated, particularly by fans of George Lakoff. Too often, how things are phrased is taken to be more important than what is meant. Too often, the careful parsing of words becomes a substitute for a broad-based analysis of the political considerations at play. Bowers does this in his post today.
He takes a look at Obama’s statement explaining his position on FISA:
“The bill has changed. So I don’t think the security threats have changed, I think the security threats are similar. My view on FISA has always been that the issue of the phone companies per se is not one that overrides the security interests of the American people.”
Bowers takes this comment to mean that Barack Obama just isn’t that interested in the Fourth Amendment and that he supports warrantless wiretaps despite having previously stated that he does not support warrantless wiretaps. First of all, Bowers is going beyond what Obama actually said and missing what he meant.
I don’t care whether the telecommunications corporations get immunity per se. I know there is the issue of equal justice and all that, but there can potentially be some forgiveness if the telcos were acting on assurances from the highest reaches of the administration. The big problem with immunity is that it will prevent us from getting the facts about what happened and making a fair judgment about whether the telcos deserve leniency. In all likelihood, once retroactive immunity is granted, the American people will never learn the extent to which our privacy was violated. But that is ultimately up to the next administration. If Obama is elected and we have a Democratic Congress, there is no legal obstacle to hauling the telcos before Congress and having them testify about what happened. There’s no reason that Obama’s Justice Department can’t reveal a declassified version of an internal investigation. In response to that information, Congress can craft new legislation, including legislation that strengthens our privacy rights. I don’t want to get people’s hopes up that this will happen, but it could. That is why retroactive immunity is not the real problem per se. Far bigger problems are involved in the increased spying powers and diminished oversight that is in the FISA law. Bowers jumps to conclusions with this:
Yes, Obama might agree with us, and probably capitulated for political reasons. However, as he said himself, he never really cared about telecom immunity all that much. As such, it is extremely unlikely that he will bother to do anything behind the scenes to fix this. There is no “secret plan.” He just doesn’t care all that much.
It’s actually impossible to tell what aspects of this bill he really cares about and which aspects of this bill he doesn’t really care about. His actions contradict his words to some degree because he promises to ‘work’ to strip the bill of immunity (the part Bowers assures us he doesn’t care about) while he also promises to vote for final passage because “the issue of the phone companies per se is not one that overrides the security interests of the American people.”
Bowers quotes Obama from last November saying “We are not a nation that wiretaps without warrants.” The problem with that is that Obama is supporting a FISA bill that expands the circumstances under which the government can do just that. Of course, the details of this are complicated and involve things like basket warrants, bulk collections, lack of accountability for violations, and weakened oversight. So, it isn’t a straightforward contradiction for Obama to support this FISA bill because the FISA bill doesn’t come right out and allow warrantless wiretapping.
It’s easier to see what Obama is doing politically than it is to know what he really believes and intends to do about warrantless wiretapping in his administration. Obama is splitting the difference on the FISA bill. He opposes retroactive immunity and will ‘work’ to strip it from the bill. But if the choice comes down to passing FISA or not passing FISA, he is going to vote to pass it. What this indicates is that he’s not willing to let this campaign become a referendum on spying powers, where he takes the side of civil libertarians against the side of fearmongerers. It doesn’t tell us, necessarily, what policy Obama really supports. It tells us what battles he’s willing to fight in this campaign. Bowers frames this issue in the context of the 2002 Authorization to Use Military Force in Iraq (AUMF-Iraq) vote. Of the 29 Democratic senators that voted for the AUMF-Iraq, how many of them did it despite being opposed to the policy because they were afraid of the political consequences of being opposed? And how many voted for the AUMF-Iraq because they actually agreed with the policy? The answer matters because the people that voted out of fear can be expected to vote the right way under more favorable circumstances, but the one’s that actually agreed with the policy are going to be a continual problem.
I think that’s a fair analysis. We know that John Edwards and John Kerry were convinced to vote for the AUMF-Iraq by their consultants that advised them a ‘no’ vote would cripple their electoral chances. That’s quite different from Joe Lieberman, who enthusiastically backed the policy of invasion. And we can see the difference in the way these three senator’s careers have diverged in the ensuring six years.
Barack Obama didn’t have a vote on the AUMF-Iraq, but he did speak out against it at the time and he gave all the right reasons for opposing it. And that already shows that he had better judgment than Edwards and Kerry because even in 2002, Obama had presidential ambitions. In fact, he was in the middle of a campaign for Senate.
I want to be clear that I forcefully disagree with Obama’s FISA decision on the merits because I think the issue at hand is important enough that he really ought to be willing to take on our civil liberties as a major part of the campaign discussion. People think Bob Barr is going to take all his votes from John McCain, but Obama is inviting a good chunk of his potential voters to go over to Barr. He could easily lose more votes to Barr than he avoids losing from independents and disgruntled Republicans. It’s not a clear-cut political advantage for Obama to punt on final passage of the FISA bill.
I would not advise Obama to take on this battle if I thought it had a serious chance of costing him the presidency, precisely because he can come up with other remedies once he is president. But I think he’s safe and may even derive an advantage in taking a stand for civil liberties.
What Bowers fears is that Barack Obama actually agrees with Dick Cheney about FISA, or doesn’t really care much one way or the other. I don’t think there is much evidence to support that fear. Certainly, I don’t think Chris’ narrow parsing of Obama’s rhetoric is convincing.
Obama’s decision here doesn’t tell us whether he’s a progressive or a centrist. It tells us that Obama is not going to make the issue of FISA a centerpiece of this campaign. It’s hard to know all the reasons for that decision. One reason might be that the bill has enough Democratic votes that Obama can’t stop it. I’d like to think he could convince the caucus if he tried hard enough, but I haven’t been privy to those conversations. Russ Feingold has been clear about his disappointment in his colleagues’ attitudes. That is evidence that Obama may not have had the clout to stop this bill even if he had tried. If that’s the case, it may be that Obama just isn’t willing to make a disagreement over FISA a centerpiece of this campaign when it is going to pass anyway. And that speaks to his political instincts (which may be flawed or savvy) more than to his true ideological makeup.
The bottom line is that our choice this fall is going to be between John McCain and Barack Obama. The media, the consultants, the Republican fearmongering, the money people, the need to attract independents and soft Republicans, all conspire to move Obama to the center. That doesn’t mean he isn’t the most progressive candidate for president we’ve seen in thirty-four years. I still believe he is.
As usual you write with clarity. A forceful analysis. Here are some other takes (HT: to our own Dada’s great catch of Sirota’s and Greenwald’s posts.
Dada’s recommended reading if I may:
:::
He made a comment about Chavez the other day that seems to suggest that he’s not going to be about change.
Pissed me off.
One of the more worrisome things Obama has said is that South America has been neglected because of the US being tied down in Iraq. I’m sure SA is happy to have us not worrying our pretty little heads about them for a change.
But the whole problem comes down to, Why would they? Keep in mind that this immunity thing is not about convicting the telcos of anything. It’s merely about allowing civil law suits to get a hearing. Which is almost nothing. So why would Obama and the Dems declassify documents, hold hearings, and legislate a FISA reversal later? Nothing will be different — there will always be an election coming up so the same dishonorable excuses will always apply.
But if Dems just go along with Bush now, just wait til they get the White House and 90% majorities in Congress — then for sure they’ll keep their promises and do the right thing. You can bet the farm on that.
BTW, I disagree about “nakedly calculating and defensive rationales for their actions” being offensive. I’d be liking Obama a little better right now if he’d been more naked and just said “Well, I don’t like this law, but there’s an election coming up and I to talk about issues that I believe are more immediate and critical than FISA. This is an issue we’ll take care of when I’m president, so I don’t want it to distract from more fundamental issues now.”
Booman wrote:
“I don’t care whether the telecommunications corporations get immunity per se. I know there is the issue of equal justice and all that, but there can potentially be some forgiveness if the telcos were acting on assurances from the highest reaches of the administration.”
WTF? “Assurance from the highest reaches of government?” That is the essence of fascism. The notion that it is OK for corporations to break laws so long as they do it in partnership with government ought to send shivers up the spine of every American. We have just lived through eight years of a corrupt and incompetent administration that has broken laws and disrespected the Constitution on a daily basis. And you are willing to give the telecoms a pass because their actions were sanctioned by the Bush administration?
‘Moving to the center’ is just another bullshit term for compromising your integrity. Constitutional principles are not negotiable. If we are going to grant retroactive immunity to the telecoms, then we set a very bad precedent– how will we ever know when the law is the law? In which instances will we actually adhere to the law, and in which will we exercise flexibility and forgiveness? Booman, this is the first time that I’ve felt you were really on the wrong track on an issue. Have some more coffee and try again, please….
I’ll trade the truth for lawsuit protection if the alternative if no truth and weaker oversight.
Understand?
Because the truth will create impetus for better policy and balances.
ahh, yes, the old “the truth will set you free” gambit.
boo, you’re wrong on this one, imo. “weaker oversight” is built into this legislation already, and dollars to donuts, regardless of the outcome, chimpy issues blanket pardons to the teleCONs, effectively destroying any new administrative investigations chances for success. this is bad law. period.
this act covers everybody’s ass, demoRATs included.
I am not sure that a pardon would ‘effectively destroy any new administrative investigations chances of success’. They destroy CONVICTIONS for crimes, but those with pardons still would have to testify under oath. And they can’t take the fifth, because they already have immunity from prosecution. If they take the fifth, they are in contempt of court.
Perhaps some lawyer can clear it up if I am wrong.
Plus Obama’s decision here is neither here nor there as far as pardons. Bush will pardon EVERYONE (thousands and thousands) as he goes out the door. It will work as far as convictions are concerned. But Bush is probably to stupid to realize that pardons have nothing to do with investigations.
Of course none of this will matter come Jan. Bush will bomb Iran in Dec. and America will be far too concerned with the consequences of that to investigate anything else for a few years.
nalbar
Bush can’t pardon AT&T. He can only pardon individuals. And once he pardons them they no longer have any fifth amendment protection against self-incrimination.
And please define what I’m on the wrong side of.
I think Obama should vote against FISA. I think there should be no retroactive immunity unless it is part of a deal for total cooperation in an investigation.
I told people not to get their hopes up that the Democrats will work to uncover the truth next year.
l’m not saying you support obama’s actions, what l take objection to is your position that “I’ll trade the truth for lawsuit protection if the alternative if [sic] no truth and weaker oversight.”, based on the conceived notion that he can, or will, “change” things.
whether or not obama is a better choice than j-mac is not an issue here. what’s at stake is a codification of a principle that is in direct conflict with, and negates to a great extent, protections guaranteed under the 4th amendment. to willingly, even if begrudgingly, write those rights off based on the “hope” of some future president to do the right thing, is a place l will not go, nor a strategy l will accept.
as l’ve said before, my 4th amendment rights are non-negotiable.
if this becomes law, the issue of the demoRATs “working to uncover the truth next year” is moot. contempt of court, contempt of congress? how’s that worked out the past year and a half that they’ve controlled both the house and the senate?
it’s wishfull thinking to believe that anyone involved in the crimes of the past 7 1/2 years is ever going to cooperate.
for starters, one of chimpy/s executive orders, c. 1 nov 2001 “ended more than 30 years of increasing openness in government.” from the nyt:
like they say in kansas…wish in one hand and shit in the other…see which one fills up first.
you’re arguing against something other than my point.
I am saying that I don’t care whether the telcos get off the hook for its own sake (necessarily) but oppose immunity for other reasons.
If…
the telcos were to cut a deal to come totally clean on the whole program in exchange for liability protection, then I would make that deal if my alternative was to not learn what happened at all.
You make it sound like I’m saying something completely different. You make it sound like I’m saying it’s okay to let them off the hook because the Dems can theoretically follow up later.
I’m not saying that.
I am saying that they could do that, but I am not saying either that they will or that I’m okay with making the assumption that they will.
I’m analyzing Obama’s options here and exploring his motivations. That shouldn’t be interpreted as advocacy unless I expressly advocate something.
Passing this bill with or without retroactive immunity is bad news. Passing it with retroactive immunity is very bad news. Yet, it appears that is exactly what is going to happen regardless of how Obama chooses to vote.
I said I disagree with his position on this, but I also am saying that it doesn’t mean that he doesn’t care about our rights or that he agrees with Dick Cheney’s theories of executive power.
l thought l made it clear that neither obama’s position, nor your opposition to immunity viv-a-vis your original post was what l took exception to. what l questioned is your willingness to go along with what is no more than pure speculation, to wit:
ain’t gonna happen…k…that aside, whether or not he cares, or doesn’t care about our rights will be obvious to anyone who’s paying attention when this plays out.
maybe we have a failure to communicate, eh. keep wishing boo, let me know which hand fills up.
Sorry, I must be in a parallel universe. I would come over to this universe but people seem clueless on one fundamental issue. FISA offers a glimpse into reality but folks here don’t want to look.
Let’s ramp forward to 2009. Dem majorities in both houses and President Obama sitting in the White House. Will there be hearings about the (formerly) illegal spying? Will NSA people be called in front of congressional committees to explain what happened? Forget the civil suits. The power to review intelligence is supposed to be in the President’s and Congress’ purview. Right? But everyone here knows already that it’s not going to happen.
The NSA isn’t in the power of Bush or the Republicans, and it’s not because Dems are conniving or sniveling that they keep bending over for the intelligence community. Why didn’t we get to the bottom in any number of investigations into our intelligence community over the years?
Everybody satisfied that we found all we needed to know about Iran-contra? Oh, that was a “mistake” that Bill Clinton made. Hell, it wasn’t a mistake. Presidents know their limitations. Go back to the HSCA. They conclude that there was a conspiracy to kill JFK and what happens? Nothing. And Carter was in office at the time.
If you were making a graph of the federal power structure you’d have to put something else above Congress and the Presidency.
I cannot agree, unless its part of a truth & reconcilliation process or a tradeoff in exchange for a war crimes trial. Really.
All good points Boo. I would like to add another.
I think the only thing right now that Obama REALLY ‘cares’ about (in the sense of ‘OMG! I REALLY want this!) is getting elected to the POTUS. He can’t do much about anything if he loses. So he has to look at how any votes he makes is PERCEIVED. How would the MSM frame a no vote? They would frame it as ‘weak’, and they would take everything the republicans say about it and repeat it without dissent, for weeks and weeks.
Just look at how Obama’s rejecting public money has been framed, as a ‘flip flop’. At the same time McCain’s issues have gone unreported. Even supposed Democrats on TV allow this framing, not mentioning McCain at all when they talk about public money. This is Obama’s REAL opponent, not McCain. McCain is an ugly, REALLY pale old white guy, who wears a girdle and a suit with cardboard shoulder pads who can barely walk. Obama beats him 60-40 if there is no MSM propping McCain up.
So while you are probably right that the issue of opposing this bill is not one that would hurt him, the framing of this issue by the media is one that could later hurt him badly. So he removed it.
Add to that that the framing now (for three days straight in headlines on Huff post) is ‘Obama loses his sainthood with the DFH’s!’, which could be looked at as also removing something from the MSM’s favorite subject list.
You have repeatedly said that Obama has to run a particular type of campaign to be elected. One that constantly removes the ability for the MSM to frame him as a scary black dood who is after white women. This calculated decision fits that.
nalbar
You are right that it is about framing but also timing and process. He should have made the announcement after the DNC filed its lawsuit against McCain. The DNC should have gone on a PR offensive with respect to this issue. In the meantime, Obama should have sent an email to his supporters asking if he should opt out of public financing. Therefore his opting out could be framed as a grassroots effort.
Hi BooMan. I was part of a lively thread this morning on the subject. Have a look if interested. The one thing I’d like to quote myself about:
Just caught this via boing boing …
AT&T billing site makes jokes about company’s participation in warrantless wiretapping?
Simplify, Organize, Liberate SOL…gotta love the irony.
It’s free and easy, Olivia.
Bit OT but a general query.
In a civil suit (or for that matter any action) if the respondents were to pay money to the jurors or to the judge to effect the outcome, presumably that would be not lawful. If during the suit the respondents pay for legislators to change the result of the suit, is that really kosher? And if so does that also mean for example that law makers could alter, say, the recent super court Exxon Valdiz reduction in damages by legislating after fact otherwise?
There is something very dodgy (or funky) about the FISA “immunity” that’s got to leave some room for a court challenge. Especially given that it does not appear that the law makers made their decisions without any Telecom influence.
We can slice and dice this issue a million ways, but I still think Obama and his advisors are making a big mistake by allowing the crack of doubt to open concerning his integrity. For myself (and presumably millions of others) the central appeal of Obama’s campaign is that the guy presented himself as someone who is serious about following through on his statements and promises. We bought into the idea that he isn’t just another political whore. The minute we start wondering if he can be trusted to honor his word, something important is lost, and we’re back in the old political fog again, where the foundation and the boundaries are constantly shifting, and nobody knows what the fucking truth is. I wonder if Obama and his staff get this?
Unfortunately this is the nature of politics. If you think about it, it can’t be otherwise. Why? Because there are real fights going on all the time, and while a fight is on you cannot make everything public, and what is made public has to be calculated as a weapon in the fight. Opinions are thrown back and forth by all kinds of interests, aiming to influence public perception one way or the other.
In other words, even if, for the sake of arguement, Obama’s motivations were pure as the driven snow, he would not be able to publicly take every position he’d like to take, or say everything he really thinks. The problem for us — and don’t get me wrong, it is a real problem — is that we do not entirely understand what is going on, because a lot of it is not public, We probably will know more in a few years, when people are writing their memoirs, and people involved are more willing to talk. So we are left with the question of whether we “trust” the guy. But even there we don’t have enough to go on — it’s pretty much a matter of faith. And look where faith got the people who put their faith in George W. Bush. But I could have said at the outset they were mistaken to do so, and they had the wrong kind of faith – some kind of pseudo-religious faith. I hope we can agree that Obama’s a far cry from Bush. Nevertheless, that’s what it boils down to. Faith is irreducible to reason, because we don’t have enough hard info to reason about everything, nor do we always have the wisdom to come to the correct conclusion.
“Obama’s decision here doesn’t tell us whether he’s a progressive or a centrist. It tells us that Obama is not going to make the issue of FISA a centerpiece of this campaign. It’s hard to know all the reasons for that decision. One reason might be that the bill has enough Democratic votes that Obama can’t stop it. I’d like to think he could convince the caucus if he tried hard enough, but I haven’t been privy to those conversations. Russ Feingold has been clear about his disappointment in his colleagues’ attitudes. That is evidence that Obama may not have had the clout to stop this bill even if he had tried. If that’s the case, it may be that Obama just isn’t willing to make a disagreement over FISA a centerpiece of this campaign when it is going to pass anyway. And that speaks to his political instincts (which may be flawed or savvy) more than to his true ideological makeup.”
Yeah, this is pretty much what I was arguing yesterday. I don’t know that it’s true, but it’s certainly plausible.
Obama has had at least three recent lurches rightward, on: 1) FISA, 2) NAFTA, and 3) The Death Penalty. Only 3 is truly pandering to voters. Had he said anything else, we would have had weeks of outrage about how Obama is soft on child molesters. However, the people who care enough about FISA to vote on it are almost all against the bill, and any others are Republican dead enders who are beyond Obama’s reach anyway. Even among Republicans, though, the fear-mongering tune inspires no dancers: otherwise, Rudy would, as the media had thought, be the nominee. As for NAFTA, it is hated across the spectrum, and few of those who do like it would vote on that issue, while many of the detractors would. There are many Republican votes here, but he is leaving on the table, not “pandering” to them.
Who he is pandering to is the elite, and, he has to do it to avoid flaying by the media. If he sticks to his guns on these issues, Bill Ayers will become the most famous evil hippie since Charles Manson. So he may or may not sincerely believe the positions he’s taking, but structurally, these positions make sense.
However, at this point the issue is what Dan Gerstein said: that Obama must kick the left. If we let ourselves get kicked in the campaign, we will get kicked even harder afterwards: people thought Clinton was just kidding too. The only way for us not to continue getting kicked is to kick back, and this is probably our best chance to do it. The primary is over, but it is far enough from the general that we will do no harm to Obama that is not recoverable. But he has just turned down public financing (another kick; this one praised by the media, a sure sign of perfidy) on the assumption that his funding tsunami will continue to swell. It would be a good time for a lull in donations and volunteering explicitly connected to his centerward lurch. Nothing he won’t get back before the convention, but just a warning that messing with us has a cost. If it doesn’t, we will always be messed with.
And Iran. He’s going to the right on Iran. He’s has signaled he will not stop an attack.
I like the kick analogy. You’re right. Democrats and liberals need to start demanding that their candidates act in their interest. But too bad Booman is becoming an Obama salesman. Booman’s goal is to convince you Obama has magical powers and is doing what other Democrats do–kick their base in the balls–for your own good.
It’s more of the same from the centrist-Democrats. But Booman will make it seem like it’s really special this time. It just might work if we take Obama’s kicks to our teeth with a smile. If we just keep smiling (don’t worry–you look fine without your teeth) Obama will eventually reward us as soon as the political environment is safe to tack to the left. Don’t worry. Just keep sending your money Obama’s way.
Oh no. Say it aint so Booman. Did Obama throw his magic powder on you?
Obama is a progressive? Did someone steal the last bit of your integrity? Did you hit your head?
Wait, next we’ll have a post saying that the reason progressives aren’t winning policy battles is not because the most powerful Democratic politician (who is a Progressive! I swear!) has decided to give in to the down-and-out Republicans and Worst President Ever, but because we only have kooks like Kucinich representing progressives! That’s it. It’s not that Obama isn’t progressive it’s that Kucinich is too progressive.
Or something.
Wow. You’re spinning like a top.