According to the Times of London, the Israelis are preparing for a ground invasion of Gaza. Their troops are amassed and the air force is tilling the mine-filled open land that the troops will have to traverse in the opening stages of the invasion. It sounds like the real thing, though it could always be called off.
Assuming the Israelis go ahead with their invasion, I expect that they will be stuck in Gaza for the foreseeable future. Their aims will no longer be limited to halting rocket fire. They will want to completely dismantle all vestiges of Hamas power and, presumably, restore Fatah to power in the Strip. I can’t imagine how this can be accomplished, although it might result, eventually, in an end to split government among the Palestinians. But ‘eventually’ can be a very long time and ‘might’ is a very loaded word.
As with all previous spasms of violence, this latest outbreak will only be justifiable if it leads to a sustainable peace agreement that otherwise would be unattainable. I see extremely low prospects for this invasion resulting in a breakthrough in Israel-Palestine relations. As a general matter, war between two peoples is not conducive to better relations between them. Since I cannot envision a likely scenario in which this invasion will ultimately save more lives than it costs (on either side, or in total), I have no choice but to condemn it as a morally unacceptable decision.
As far as I can tell, Hamas wants Israel to invade. And I think Hamas has good reason to welcome an invasion because it will bring a new round of international condemnation down on Israel and will ensnare them in a trap from which they will find it almost impossible to escape. The United States will suffer the consequences almost as keenly as Israel. I could support actions that were designed to provide security for Israel’s citizens if I felt they would work and that they would not harm America’s reputation and security. This invasion fails that test on all counts. I condemn it, and I earnestly hope it is not green-lighted.
Please wait until the Obama-Biden team is sworn in and work with them to find a solution to the security problem.
amen.
As with all previous spasms of violence, this latest outbreak will only be justifiable if it leads to a sustainable peace agreement that otherwise would be unattainable.
Inherent in your sentence is the problem: none of the “previous spasms of violence” have lead to a sustainable peace agreement.
From Aldous Huxley:
The end cannot justify the means for the simple and obvious reason that the means employed determine the nature of the ends produced.
For both sides, armed conflict is not the answer.
Why is it so difficult for people to understand that the way to provide security for Israel’s citizens is to provide security and allow dignity and self-determination for Palestinians?
And why is the emphasis always on the welfare of Israeli citizens, while the horrors endured by the Palestinians every hour of every day are left unmentioned?
As for the idea of getting rid of the split government by getting rid of Hamas and putting the corrupt, collaborationist thugs of Fatah back in power so they can, once again, sell out the Palestinian people for their own personal gain – way to bring democracy to the Middle East, guys! What matters is who Israel wants in there, right? I mean, why should the Palestinians people get to decide these things for themselves when they keep choosing the wrong ones?
What if Israel and the U.S. had accepted the results of the Palestinian elections? Instead of reacting to the Palestinians’ democratic choice by immediately arresting tens of elected officials, and collectively punishing the people with deadly military violence and turning Gaza into a 21st century Warsaw ghetto, what if they had accepted the results, and tried to find a way of working with the new government? What if, instead of trying to get rid of Hamas by fomenting a civil war in which they supported Fatah, they had respected the Palestinians’ choice and tried to work with it? And what if, instead of clinging desperately to the myth that Hamas is an implacable enemy committed irreversibly to the destruction of Israel, they recognized and acknowledged all the signs of evolution within the organization? What if, instead of putting their hands over their ears and loudly singing “lalalalalalala” whenever Hamas announced it was prepared to accept a two state solution with Israel existing within the 1967 borders, they had taken it as a positive sign and tried to work with it?
And what if, seven years ago when the Arab League offered them everything they claim they want, they had set up a date to negotiate the agreement and the timing instead of wagging their middle finger? And given that the offer is still on the table, why are they so studiously pretending it doesn’t exist?
It is not the Palestinians who have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity, it is the Israelis who have never missed an opportunity to spit in the face of an opportunity.
The Palestinians and the Arabs have been ready now for at least two decades. The Israelis just aren’t ready.
Israel is addicted to violence. That is a big part of the problem. And this is not me saying it, many Israelis recognize it. Israel creates excuses to beat up on those weaker than they are.
You don’t have to take my word for it. Israel is a classic bully that loves to play the victim.
Demonizing people is the problem. Why do you perpetuate it?
Don’t confuse demonization with facts. And if you have a problem with the characterization contained in the articles I linked to, you really ought to take it up with the author, who is an Israeli.
On the other hand, it is probably the Palestinians, since they are responsible for what Israel has become. Just think what a humane and peaceful country Israel would be if it really HAD been a land without a people!
The distressing thing is, that since the attacks began the Israeli left is gaining strength. You might think this is because Israelis are against this, but Barak (head of the lefties) is the Defense Minister. I think it more likely they approve of his actions.
Ninety percent of Israelis, in a poll cited by the BBC overnight, support the bombing. Why? Because they want the missile attacks from Gaza to stop. Would any of us be happy with missile attacks on our towns no matter what the complaints of attackers might be? What would you want your military to do?
Why are there missile attacks from Gaza? It serves absolutely no military benefit. It only radicalizes and provokes its enemy. How does Hamas remain guiltless when it continues to supply the reason for Israel to attack them? It’s like the drunk in a barfight that keeps standing up and poking the bully who just beat the crap out of him. At some point the drunk owns his own beating.
Hamas needs to perpetuate the violence because it is the means to organizes its people against Israel. If Hamas were spending all its time working on the insurmountable economic and civil problems they would soon be voted out of office. Why? Because the problems are insurmountable. But fighting a low-level war with God on your side can go on forever. It only costs the price of some Katushas and a few hundred more martyrs. Do the math.
Both ruling classes need the violence of religious extremism to organize its deluded populations. Sometimes the deadly dance is obscured when one side is so militarily dominant, but Hamas is a willing dance partner.
No mention of the blockade?
Look, my post in no way supports even the reason for Israel’s existence. And Israel’s actions and reactions are inequal to the puny volley of rockets that Hamas directs/allows into Israel.
What I am saying is that the rockets do no good for people living in Gaza. Israel used earlier rocket attacks as a basis/excuse for the blockade. They are using recent attacks as the reason for the current slaughter.
Could the Hamas leadership not predict the eventual outcome? Did Hamas have a military objective that they hoped to achieve? Did they think that the possibility of random property damage and a few dead Israelis was going to win back Palestine? Or did they think that the katyushas were going to bring Israel’s leftist peace movement to the table?
No, they knew that Israel would eventually smack back harder. And if they knew anything about the political processes in Israel and the U.S. they could have predicted when this was going to happen.
Losing a few hundred people to martyrdom in the holy war against the Jews even moves the population of Gaza further into a zealousness that precludes any peace. It’s a great recruiting tool. And as long as Israel’s responsible for everything that’s wrong in Gaza then Hamas is off the hook. This low-level war keeps Hamas in power, keeps the Israeli right in power and satisfies the leaders in the Middle East who don’t want to lose a real war to Israel and don’t want to resolve the Palestinian diaspora but would just as soon let the bloodsport continue as long as it doesn’t impinge on their own regimes. Everybody’s happy but the people who are suffering.
Bob, first of all one of these days we have to have a discussion about this idea you have that what is going on is some “holy war against the Jews”, but it’s too big a discussion on its own to have in this context, so it will have to wait. I think it’s a really important discussion though, because the notion that this is a “holy war” at all, let alone against “the Jews” really poisons the field of view badly.
Yes, Israel is using the rocket attacks as the excuse for the current slaughter, and if it were not for the rocket attacks, they would find another excuse, and if the Palestinians did not provide them with one they would fabricate it (remember Iraq?). The siege and the current spate of attacks are not any more about rocket attacks than the 33 day horror unleashed on Lebanon was about “kidnapped” (sic) soldiers. Both were planned for a very long time, and were only waiting for the right moment.
That does not mean I agree with the rocket attacks at all. I oppose them if for no other reason than my absolute opposition to violence against civilians under any circumstances. But I wonder, what would people have the Palestinians do? Over the decades they have tried all manner of non-violent approaches from marches, to sit-ins, to civil disobedience, to using the legal system, to appealing to the United Nations, all to no avail. They declare and keep unilateral cease fires while Israel continues to attack with impunity, and then blames them for breaking the cease fire when they finally fire back in defense or retaliation. They agree bilateral cease fires, and keep them while Israel breaks them repeatedly, and then they get blamed for breaking the cease fire when they finally defend themselves or retaliate.
And then there is the psychological importance of fighting back against abuse – another subject too big to go into now.
I know something about abuse of power. It is addictive, so much so that the abuser will find or if necessary invent a reason to abuse. I have watched this dynamic as it unfolded, and seen over and over again that when the abuser feels the need to abuse it will happen, and nothing the abusee does or says or does not do or say will prevent it. The only thing that will prevent it is escape – an option not open to the Palestinians – or very determined intercession by a third party with more power than the abuser. And we all know that won’t happen on behalf of the Palestinians.
So, we can agree that sending those silly rockets into Sderot is probably not a good tactic, but not sending them will not prevent the Israelis from doing whatever they want to do when they want to do it. That will not stop until enough of the world has had enough and forces a stop to it.
Setting aside the ills and merits of Hamas, what I hope people can appreciate is the Palestinians’ deep dilemma. They are screwed if they do, and screwed if they don’t. Look what happened to them when they held an election that was as democratic, free, and fair as an election could be under occupation. Israel did not launch attacks, arrest tens of newly-elected officials, and impose a siege because someone fired rockets, but because they did not like the Palestinians’ democratic choices.
So, the rockets are a bad idea. Oslo turned out, not surprisingly to many of us, to be mainly a mechanism that allowed Israel to increase its hold on the West Bank and impose strangulating restrictions on the Palestinians that were not there prior to the Palestinians trying to make a peace agreement. The Israelis decided they didn’t like the PA after all, and systematically destroyed its ability to govern (ironically, Israel punished the PA for not being able to stop 100% of the anti-occupation resistance by destroying the very police facilities and equipment, and killing the very police officers whose were responsible for this task).
I don’t know, Bob, what the answer is. It looks to me as if there will not be an answer until one of two things happens. Either enough Israelis will decide that peace and coexistence is more important than territorial expansion and dominance by violence, or the rest of the world will reach the point of saturation, and put a stop to it.
How does Hamas remain guiltless when it continues to supply the reason for Israel to attack them
Bob,
Because Hamas is fighting back. Have you not been paying attention to the constant provocations?
The Jerusalem Post – in an editorial claiming that Gazan’s suffering from lack of food and fuel is “self-inflicted” admits that the first hostile act was Israeli:
Hamas has been setting the stage for the next round. On November 4, the IDF destroyed a tunnel that Israeli intelligence believed was going to be used – at any moment – to infiltrate into Israel for the purpose of kidnaping soldiers. Since then Hamas has fired 60 Kassams and 20 mortars at southern Israel.
As the Palestine Monitor notes,
Quite predictably, Hamas’ reaction to the invasion was to launch a number of rockets into the Negev, further terrorizing the civilian population of two small towns who had lived in a rather peaceful state for nearly five months. Though we condemn these attacks whole-heartedly, it is the disturbing logical conclusion to the Israeli invasion. In other words, Israel knew that their invasion would provoke a response…
Cee, yes, Hamas is fighting back with the only weapons it has, but at the same time, I would not consider them guiltless.
The guiltless ones are the Palestinians who made the mistake of really believing they would be allowed to choose their own government.
The guiltless ones are the hundreds of Palestinians who took government jobs – practically the only jobs available in Gaza – in order to support their families, and have been murdered for it, and whose murders have been justified by labeling them things like “Hamas security forces” (ironically, one of the jobs of those “security forces” was to rein in groups like Islamic Jihad during cease fires).
The guiltless ones are my friend Majdi and his wife and two year old daughter who at this moment may or may not be alive – and yes, I am worried sick.
The guiltless ones are my friend Hani and his wife and two year old daughter, formerly of Rafah, living in Gaza City the last time I heard from them. Hani is a computer scientist who was working for the police department.
I disagree. I’ve been paying as much attention as you have.
They respond after repeated provocation.
Often, but not always. Certainly in this sequence of events that has been the case, and Israel has a well documented history, going back to its first days, of deliberately provocative actions.
I do not hold Hamas blameless. Where I differ strongly with BooMan and others is in their simplistic “an equal pox on both their houses” position. It is simply not reasonable, realistic, fair, or productive to hold the oppressed victim equally responsible as the oppressor. In fact, as Elie Wiesel said so eloquently, holding them equally responsible favours the oppressor against the oppressed.
Look, I don’t know what the Palestinians should do, but terrorizing the innocent people of Sderot with pathetic, homemade rockets does not seem to me to be the answer. If nothing else, it is difficult to qualify it as self defense to shoot at someone other than the people who are attacking you. I can tell you with absolute certainty that it violates the Qur’an, which is very strict in this matter.
Expecting people to not react as they see their mothers, fathers and children beaten, dispossessed and murders is unrealistic. Israel knows it.
I recall the quote of Moshe Dayan about sending tanks deeper and deeper into Lebanese territory until they finally would respond.
I can’t blame the Palestinians for responding now.
Btw…I grew up with the myths about poor little Israel being the victim of the evil Arabs.
I’m no longer brainwashed.
It’s not about expecting Palestinians not to respond, Cee, or blaming them for responding. That is what BooMan et al do. They expect the Palestinians to use only non-violent resistance in the face of overwhelming power from an enemy that has no morality whatsoever.
Holding the victim to higher moral standard than the criminal is not only unrealistic it is grotesque.
However, it makes no sense and is unproductive when party A attacks you to “defend” yourself by terrorizing party B.
Gandhi didn’t even expect the Palestinians not to defend themselves.
… I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regarded as an unwarrantable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds.
— The Jews In Palestine, by Mahatma Gandhi; The Harijan, 26 Nov 1938.
Please.
Here is what Gandhi argued in 1938, before the Holocaust.
I think it was a bit naive of Gandhi to ask such a question on the eve of the slaughter of six million Jews.
He was right.
He was suggesting that the Jews could do to Hitler what the Whos did to the Grinch. Literally.
I share Gandhi’s boundless faith in humanity and in the efficacy of non-violent action. But his advice for the Jews was not prescient.
Great, launching a few missiles into Israel is “fighting back”. Enjoy the symbolism. Myself, I’m sick of people being killed.
Bob, I am sick of people being killed too, but if history is any indication, then Palestinians are going to be killed whether Hamas fires a few homemade rockets into Israel or not.
I don’t support Hamas firing rockets into Israel, even when it is clearly a reaction to Israeli attacks, but I understand it.
I also don’t support Hamas’ hyper-religious agenda, though that seems to have moderated somewhat over the years, but the Palestinians have not had a lot of great choices, and Hamas has historically been free of corruption, and has provided critical social services that have made the difference between life and death for hundreds of thousands of Gazans.
Overall, Hamas was far preferable to the corrupt, self-serving collaborationist Fatah, who have feathered their own nests at the expense of the Palestinian people and their goals. So, I understand.
Believe me, the Palestinians I know who voted for Hamas did not do so with enthusiasm, nor have they been exactly thrilled with Hamas’ leadership (although who knows how well they might have done had Israel, the U.S., and EU accepted the choice and worked with it instead of trying to cut off its legs immediately).
Then stop supporting the international outlaw Israel.
Bob, we may or may not agree with Hamas’ use of rockets, but we should at least be clear about the context in which these rocket attacks take place.
You make it sound as if the rocket (not missile) attacks are taking place in a vacuum, as if they were unprovoked and just for their own sake or for some internal political purpose. Do you realize that they are in response to attacks by the Israelis, and to the genocidal siege that has been imposed on the 1.5 million human beings in Gaza (genocidal is not my word, it is a word used by U.N. and other human rights officials)?
Compared to the pervasive and horrific effects of being locked in the 21st century version of the Warsaw ghetto, the rocket attacks are minor. They only affect a tiny percentage of the Israeli population. The rockets themselves are pathetic, homemade things that by and large land without causing any real harm or damage outside of jangling some nerves. For the tiny percentage of Israelis whose lives are affected by the rockets, it is certainly unpleasant, and tragically now and then it is deadly. However, the overwhelming majority of Israelis are so far removed that they would not know they took place if they didn’t watch the news. They live perfectly normal lives, and go about their business as usual.
What would I want my military to do? Well, since the cease fire in June there were no rocket attacks until Israel repeatedly violated the cease fire, escalating its violations until it had killed around 25 Palestinians. If you were a Palestinian, what would you want your leaders to do under those circumstances?
Getting back to what I would want my military to do? Well, since honouring the cease fire seemed to be the most effective way of stopping the rockets, I would want them to honour the cease fire.
And please do not mistake this as some kind of holy war. This is not in the least about god and never has been (for the record, Zionism was a secular movement, the overwhelming majority of whose members were not religious, even to the point of being atheists). For the Palestinians it is about individual and collective survival, pure and simple.
It is not like a drunk in a barfight provoking the bully, it is about the smaller, weaker person fighting back when the powerful bully beats up on him. You consider it ill-advised to fight back when attacked by a powerful bully, but it’s important to at least recognize that that is what it is. (Fighting back against abuse is a psychologically healthy reaction, but that is another subject.)
“Hamas needs to perpetuate the violence because it is the means to organizes its people against Israel.“
I’m afraid this is a serious misperception of reality on so many levels that it is difficult to know where to begin. Just for starters, it contains the assumption that it is Hamas that is the instigator of the violence when it is Israel that broke the ceasefire repeatedly an in an escalatory manner beginning on November 4 (conveniently while the rest of the world was focused on the U.S. elections), when they killed six Palestinians, and for three more days until they had killed a total of approximately 25 Palestinians in three days. If you were a Palestinian, what would you want your leaders to do, particularly given that decades of experience have taught you that appealing to international bodies such as the U.N. is a waste of time, and trying to talk the abuser out of abusing you is always counterproductive (and by the way, they DID try to initiate a diplomatic approach and were rebuffed)?
“If Hamas were spending all its time working on the insurmountable economic and civil problems they would soon be voted out of office.“
How can Hamas or any Palestinian work on the insurmountable economic and civil problems when ISrael has a stranglehold on the Palestinian economy? How can they work on civil problems, such as electricity and sewage when Israel has destroyed the electricity plants and sewage facilities, and will not allow the entry of materials and equipment required to repair them? How can they work to improve medical services when Israel has blockaded medecine, medical supplies, and medical equipment? It is all they can do to keep the generators running since Israel has also blockaded fuel. And to make matters worse, Israel has destroyed tunnels that they used mainly to smuggle in food, medicine, fuel, and other basic necessities of life.
“Why? Because the problems are insurmountable.“
Why are they insurmountable?
“But fighting a low-level war with God on your side can go on forever.“
As I said before, this has absolutely nothing to do with god.
Look, any American can be forgiven for not knowing certain details, such as the fact that Hamas has declared numerous unilateral cease fires and kept them until Israel’s attacks became so intolerable that they had to fight back (if you were a Palestinian what would you want your leaders to do under the circumstances?). Or that the majority of bilateral cease fires have been broken repeatedly by Israel before Hamas finally fired back. Or that Israel’s response to the democratic choice of the Palestinians two years ago was to immediately 1) launch military attacks, 2) arrest tens of democratically elected Hamas government officials whom they had never cared about arresting before (apparently their crime was being elected), 3) place the Gaza strip under a constantly tightening siege.
Perhaps in the light of this and other facts you might want to reconsider putting all the onus on Hamas?
Let me clarify that I am not suggesting that Hamas has behaved impeccably at all times, I am just trying to fill in critical context, which as usual in the case of Arab/Palestinian behaviour has gone completely missing.
“It only costs the price of some Katushas and a few hundred more martyrs. Do the math.“
Not to put too fine a point on it, but Hams do not have Katyushas. Their rockets are not of that quality, and are generally homemade in people’s garages.
“Both ruling classes need the violence of religious extremism to organize its deluded populations.“
I would be interested in knowing what specifically you think are the delusions of the Palestinians. Based on my pretty extensive and often deep contacts, most Palestinians appear to me to be very – and painfully – in touch with reality.
PS The violence is not the violence of religious extremism, even when it is religious extremists who are committing the violence. It is a big mistake to relegate this to a religious war. It is not about religion any more than the Iraqi resistance against the U.S. invasion was about Muslims fighting “infidels”.
If an individual kills someone else and is motivated by realpolitik, by economic oppression and has been taught that his God sanctions this kind of killing, then how do you draw the line?
I’m willing to allow that those who are directing the violence on both sides may be godless or at least devoid of any actual real belief. But the victims on all sides cling to their religious justifications.
Do you or don’t you believe that there was a promise from God for Jews to occupy that territory? If there is any claim on property based on religious claims and those claims eventually end up in people being evicted from their property or killed in defense of it, I’d call that religious extremism.
If you are saying that Hamas does not organize its population against Israel in any religious context and that the rockets are launched without any religious context then I just don’t believe you.
If you are saying that there are agendas that have nothing to do with heaven, and that the leaders of BOTH sides in this matter use religion to organize their population against their enemy, well then we are in agreement.
I’ll be as brief as I can here. First, by using missile I did not intend to suggest guided missiles. We all know that these are pretty primitive weapons and are more a nuisance that destroy property and occasionally lands on a civilian. As such they are not a targeted weapon as might be justified in rules of war. Their purpose is to terrorize people. I would guess we are all on the same page with that.
In the current context shooting rockets into Israel has given Israel an excuse to flatten Gaza without return fire doing any real harm to Israel. In fact, it has strengthened the more right-wing, militaristic religious zealots in Israel.
As to “delusions”, I was referring to both the people of Israel and Gaza but could well extend it to people around the world. And the delusions are that there is a God or Allah that exists who grants rights to this group or that and who holds a grudge against other groups and who foretells that this group has the go-ahead to kill that group. There is no God. God is the delusion. It’s a useful delusion for the rulers. If the Mideast were stripped of religion all inequalities would be exposed to the light of day.
Bob, the Palestinians, including Hamas, are not primarily motivated by a belief that God (you probably know that Allah is simply Arabic for God, Gott, Dio, Deiu, Khoda, etc., but I just want to mention it) has granted them any rights other than their rights as human beings, nor do they believe they have the go-ahead from God to kill Jews (anyone who really knows the Qur’an knows the opposite is the case). The overwhelming majority of Palestinians are motivated a need to survive, and rage over the denial of their human and national rights and their dignity as human beings. True, religious groups like Hamas use God as a rallying cry, and over time some Palestinians and other Muslims have developed distorted views, but these are not the motivations of the majority.
The overwhelming majority of Israelis are secular, and not at all religious. The founders of Israel and its early leaders were secular, and were not motivated at all by the idea that god gave any land to the Jews. In fact, before they ever considered Palestine the examined several other options, and some were less than enthusiastic about Palestine when it was suggested.
One of the reasons for choosing Palestine was its historical (more than its religious) significance to Jews as a selling point (still didn’t work very well – ironically it was the Holocaust that sold the idea of a Jewish state, and at that point they would have gone anywhere on earth). The “god gave the land to me” thing no doubt existed and still exists for some people, but the idea that it is the prevailing motivation is largely a product of the mawkish theme song from that blatant propaganda film, Exodus.
I’m not claiming that god is not a factor at all anywhere in this, but it is not nearly as big or pervasive a factor as you think. It certainly does not explain the numerous notorious Christian militants such as George Habash who formed and headed the PFLP, or the passion of secular Palestinians.
Granted, this is anecdotal and by no means scientific, but I know and have worked with and had as friends literally hundreds of Palestinians of varied levels of education and sophistication, and across all religious persuasions from affirmed atheists to deeply religions Muslims, and no small number of Christians, and not one of them considers this a religious struggle of any kind, and I would venture to say that most or all of them recoil as I do at the suggestion that it is. This is not a representative sample by any means, but I believe it is more typical than those who see it as a mission from god rather than a struggle for human and national rights.
PS I get it about the missile thing. I can be kind of pedantic about language because sometimes the choice of one word can make a significant, if subtle difference in the message. I know it’s annoying sometimes, but I still think it’s important. In this case it was just semantics, so I didn’t need to be such a word nazi.
Thanks for clarifying.
Tragically, in Israel left does not equal dove – not even close. In fact, as many Israelis will point out, the hawks and colonizers have flourished under left governments.
I’m going to demonize the majority (76%) of Israeli citizens who voted for John McCain.
I’m also going to demonize the majority of Israeli citizens who support the slaughter in Gaza.
75% of Israeli citizens voted for John McCain? Since when can 75% of Israeli citizens vote in U.S. elections?
Dual citizens?
http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2008/10/76-of-us-citizens-in-israel-voted-for.html
76% of Israelis are not dual Israeli-US citizens!
Maybe it was 76% of dual citizens? Well, whatever. The election is water under the bridge now, and we have an incoming President who just loves Israel to death, and so far can’t seem to give the time of day to the Palestinians. I am not optimistic, but maybe Obama will surprise us.
?
But did Nader get the Brazilian vote?
Good question! Can I get back to you on that?
There is simply no non-violent way to maintain an apartheid state. There is no non-violent way to continue the slow motion ethnic cleansing in the west bank (and soon Gaza again) There is no non-violent way to blockade 1.5 million people and keep them on a “starvation diet.”
All these things require violence. And the Israeli state, to exist in its current form, needs to do all these things. Ergo….
As for this war, it is not a repeat of ’06 but more like 1982.
Then as now, Israel concealed its true intent till the end.
Then as now Israel had a favorite to place in power to make peace on its terms. It was the Gemayel clan and the Phalangists back then. It is Mahmoud Abbas and Fatah now.
They wanted to destroy the PLO then. They want to destroy Hamas now.
Missiles were used as a pretext then…just like now.
Massive destruction were seen on TV then and nothing was done. Ditto today. If anything, there was much more international outrage back then.
There were some 20,000 dead back then, hardly any of them PLO. It remains to be seen how many will die now, but I’m afraid the worst is yet to come.
The outcome may be different this time, since Gaza is too small and flat for any kind of real guerrilla warfare.
Also, if this invasion is “successful,” you can expect Netanyahu (he’s going to win no matter what) to try to reprise the Lebanon invasion.
And you can bet President Obama will back him to the hilt.
My prayers are with Gaza.
Lysander, Israel is like a serial abuser – addicted to the sense of power it gets from periodically beating the crap out of weaker people. I know this syndrome very well.
Israel is also addicted to territorial expansion, which was the goal from the beginning, and was the explicit reason that Ben Gurion refused to declare borders when some Israeli leaders urged him to in the ’40’s, and why declaring borders has not been an option since.
The outcome may be different this time, since Gaza is too small and flat for any kind of real guerrilla warfare.
The cowards prefer to slaughter people from the air.
They just bombed another mosque and the American International School.
I hate Israel.
If there is going to be an end of the troubles between Israel and Palestine, Israel must give up its policy of allowing any Jewish person anywhere in the world the right to migrate to Israel. Continued settlement results in continued land grabs from the Palestinians to provide space for the latest batch of immigrants. An obvious case of naked imperialism.
But the Jewish lobbies never sleep and US Congressmen (and women) fearing for their job security kowtow to AIPAC. So when it comes to Israel, the American giant is both blind and dumb. Perhaps, the fall of the American economy will dictate a more judicious policy regarding the state of Israel. Who knows, it might even lead to a decline of the yearly American subsidy to Israel. AIPAC, indeed, sure knows how to bring home the bacon even though it’s not kosher.
Don, thanks for this, but I think you’ve got it backward. The confiscation of Palestinian land for colonization is not a result of too much immigration at all. On the contrary, the Jewish State has been desperate for immigrants to fill up the occupied territories, and has gone to some extraordinary lengths to find them.
In their desperation they have gone so far as to “discover” a bunch of “Jews” who appear astonishingly like indigenous Peruvian Indians living in a remote area of the mountains of Peru, and ensconced them in a colony in the West Bank (but only after the Orthodox Rabbis officially converted them so they could be considered completely kosher). This goes way beyond the lost tribe, I think!
Don’t forget the black ones that they permit to live in the shadow of Dimona. LOL!!
I don’t see why Israel shouldn’t just build big-ass walls along the borders in Gaza and the West Bank and let the Palestinians go their own way.
Yes, I suppose the rockets and mortars could go over the wall, but can they have a DMZ-type buffer? Maybe Israel is too small for that. Perhaps they could use satellite/radar technology to blow up the areas from which the rockets are fired, within 30 minutes of the rocket launch. You’d think that would be a good deterrent.
Ummmm – perhaps you are unaware that Israel has been building a big-ass wall in the West Bank – entirely on Palestinian land, and in a manner that cuts deeply into Palestinian territory so as to put large amounts of Palestinian land on the Israeli side. In some cases that big-ass wall actually cuts right down the middle of Palestinian towns, and even right down the middle of neighborhoods inside those towns, putting one part of the neighborhood on one side of the wall, and another on the other side of the wall.
And if you think the purpose of that wall is to protect Israelis from Palestinians, I’ve got some ocean front property in Baghdad that I know you’re gonna want to snap right up before some other mindless moron does.
You reply to a fairly innocuous, bipartisan suggestion with:
You revile both the US and Israel while defending Hamas. Both you and Gideon Levy are exercising freedom of expression which Hamas would never grant either of you.
Existenz, I apologize to you. I did not intend to direct my “mindless moron” remark at you personally, but I can see how it can easily come across that way. The “mindless moron” was someone who, understanding the location, nature, and effect of Israel’s wall, would still believe it was about protecting Israelis. I should have found a better way to say what I was trying to say. I have no excuse but the emotional nature of the situation, and the lateness of the hour.
I hope my real point was not lost because of that careless remark. Israel IS building a big-ass wall, and the primary purpose of that wall is not to protect Israelis but to separate Palestinians from still more of their land, and to continue to squeeze Palestinians into smaller and smaller, more and more isolated spaces, and make life more and more untenable for them on what is left of their own land
Are there attacks in the Westbank? If not has the wall played a part in that or is it a reasult of other factors? If so, how has the wall there influenced the attacks (or has it)?
Those are the questions I think we should ask about that wall.
Yes, there are a lot of attacks in the West Bank, although those are going mostly unnoticed because they are mostly attacks by Israeli military and Israeli colonists against Palestinians and their property.
The situation in the West Bank is terrible and getting worse, though it does not remotely approach the horror in Gaza for the last two years.
I do not agree with you about the questions you should ask about that wall. The first and most important question you should ask about that wall is why, if its purpose is to protect Israelis, is it built not inside the green line that separates Israel from the OPT, but entirely on Palestinian land confiscated for the purpose, why is it built so deeply into Palestinian territory that large swaths of Palestinian land are on Israel’s side of the wall, and why is it designed to encircle Palestinian towns and villages in a way that isolates them one from the other and severely restricts freedom of movement to the extent of imprisoning Palestinians in smaller and smaller increasingly isolated enclaves.
Whether or not there has been a temporary lull in attacks on Israelis in the West Bank, it will not last as long as the rights of Palestinians are being so egregiously violated.
‘Amid the growing cacophony of violence, a powerful counterpoint was heard in Jerusalem Thursday evening opposite the prime minister’s residence, when a group called Another Voice from Sderot called for an immediate cease-fire, for the sake of both Israelis and Palestinians. Among the placards they carried were two which read “Free Israel” and “Free Palestine.”‘
Hillel Schenker, ‘The View from Tel Aviv’, The Nation, January 2,
Thanks so much for that, Quentin. It won’t make any difference in the outcome, but it is a small bright spot in a very dark time.
My pleasure. The times are certainly dark.
My comments here:
http://realhistoryarchives.blogspot.com/2009/01/israel-and-palestine-tale-of-two.html
Good.
What’s happening now is the continuation of World War II.
And I think Hamas has good reason to welcome an invasion because it will bring a new round of international condemnation down on Israel and will ensnare them in a trap from which they will find it almost impossible to escape.
Hamas had no choice Israel has blockaded Gaza to force Hamas into retaliating. You would have to be a saint to turn the other cheek at the suffering caused by Israel’s blockade. I don’t think Hamas is welcoming this turn of events. Its all Israeli theater to get rid of them. Israel does not care how many Palestinians suffer and die. They want Hamas gone and the harder on civilians the better. The government that follows will look good in retrospect. Hamas has been played.
There will have to be a ground invasion and an occupation if Israel wants Hamas out. That is where they will become trapped by their own arrogance. Hopefully that will not happen the delay makes me think there will be a limited incursion. Just for pride. Then a shutdown of the whole operation. It looks and feels like another Lebanon and Jewish leaders know it. The US is leaving the door open to them than in itself should give them pause. This administration’s judgment has proven to be terribly flawed.
US Campaign to End the Israeli Occupation. Sign the open letter to Obama.
I agree with you Salunga and hope that Israel merely shows the flag re its incursion into Palestine. I still have a nagging fear, though, that they might lose control and punish the people of Palestine for their temerity in taking democracy seriously and electing Hamas.
It bothers me deeply when the IDF kills innocent civilians especially children. It brings back a distant memory of what the Nazis did to the children of Lidice. Yes, I realize that the Lidice massacre was an intentional retaliation for the death in Czechoslovakia of Reinhard Heydrich. Still, the indiscriminate use of violence by the Israel military causes these ancient ghosts to surface, in my mind at least.
The memorial to the children of Lidice at Chelmno, Poland, the holocaust site where they were killed, was most moving.
“I still have a nagging fear, though, that they might lose control and punish the people of Palestine for their temerity in taking democracy seriously and electing Hamas.“
Of course, they have been horribly punishing the people of Gaza for the last two years for exactly that.
“Look what you’ve done! We gave you democracy, and you used it to elect the wrong people! We hate you for what you are making us do to you.”
The context of my reply to Salunga involved the IDF invading Gaza with their land forces to eliminate the presence of Hamas. I realize that the Israeli are punishing the people of Palestine and I am a bit irritated at your constant correcting of people for their alleged misstatements of facts. Perhaps, you should realize that sometimes, less is more, and that constant criticism can turn your allies into opponents.
One doesn’t advance causes by alienating ones supporters.
Why do you take my comment as criticism? It was nothing of the sort. I was adding on to what you said, that is all. I am sorry if it comes across as criticism or disagreement.
Look, Don, after decades of dealing with distortions by omition, and complete absence of context in matters pertaining to Arab and Muslim matters in general and the Palestinians in particular, I am no doubt hyper-sensitive. I really think it is important to add context when I can. I don’t mean it as criticism, even if that is how it comes across, and I am sorry if I am not more graceful in the way I express myself.
This is a horrible time. I have friends – dear valued friends – in Gaza whom I have known for along time, and I have watched their condition, their hope, and their mood deteriorate over the last two years, and now I know they are suffering horribly, and for all I know they are dead or maimed, and I cannot reach them to find out. One of these friends, a physician and a Fulbright scholar, confided in me a few months ago that for the first time in his life he is thinking about leaving Palestine. The problem is, he is imprisoned there because the Israelis will not give permission for anyone to leave. So, he and the 1.5 million others there are trapped like 1.5 million ducks in a shooting gallery about the size of San Francisco from which there is no escape. Sitting ducks is, I believe, the term.
So, perhaps you could cut me a bit of slack?
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Breaking News: Israel Ground Forces Enter Gaza
"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."