The reason that I am hoping the Democrats push the health care bill through the budget reconciliation process is simple. We can get a better health care bill at the 51-vote (including Biden) threshold than we can get at the 60-vote threshold. If we try to get 60 votes it means that every Democrat, and Republican Olympia Snowe of Maine, has an effective veto over any provision that they don’t like. And, frankly, I don’t want Ben Nelson and Olympia Snowe determining what kind of health reform we get. Now, the Republicans are getting very testy about the prospect of this bill getting passed through reconciliation.
Tenn. Sen. Lamar Alexander, one of the canniest Republicans in the upper chamber, tells Fox that using reconciliation to pass health care in the Senate is like going to war without the permission of Congress.
“Thumbing their nose at the American people by ramming through a partisan bill would be the same thing as going to war without asking Congress’ permission,” he said. “You might technically be able to do it, but you’d pay a terrible price in the next election.”
It should be remembered that George W. Bush passed his massive tax-cuts for the have-mores in 2001 and 2003 using the budget reconciliation process. The 2003 tax cuts passed on a 50-50 vote, with Dick Cheney breaking the tie. The Republicans won the 2002 and 2004 elections despite using strong-arm tactics that Sen. Alexander likens to going to war without Congress’ permission.
So long as the administration tries to pursue a strategy of winning 60 votes, we are going to see articles like this:
White House officials have signaled that they are prepared to scale back their aspirations for the health care legislation. In private conversations, some said they would be happy even if they end up with a pared-back program that can serve as a basis for future efforts.
One element clearly on the table is a proposed government-backed health insurance plan to compete with private insurers. Just as they have in recent weeks, White House officials indicated Sunday that Mr. Obama would continue to push for the so-called public option but they did not make it a condition of signing whatever bill lands on his desk.
And, the only way to move forward will look like this:
People familiar with Mr. Baucus’s plan said it was calculated to appeal to Senator Olympia J. Snowe, Republican of Maine. But, at first glance, they said, it appears unlikely that the proposal, in its current form, could win support from the other Republicans in the “group of six,” Senators Charles E. Grassley of Iowa and Michael B. Enzi of Wyoming…
…Mr. Baucus’s proposal does not include a “trigger mechanism” of the type recommended by Ms. Snowe, who would offer a public insurance plan in any state where fewer than 95 percent of the people had access to affordable coverage.
Senator Ben Nelson, Democrat of Nebraska, expressed support for Ms. Snowe’s idea on Sunday. On the CNN program “State of the Union,” he said Mr. Obama ought to say that “if there’s going to be a public option, it has to be subject to a trigger.”
“In other words,” Mr. Nelson said, “if somehow the private market doesn’t respond the way that it’s supposed to, then it would trigger a public option or a government-run option, but only as a fail-safe backstop to the process.”
But these things proceed in steps. The administration does not want to declare the effort to pass health reform through the Senate at the 60-vote threshold dead. They want, if it cannot pass, for the Republicans to vote on it and show their cards. At that point, the Democrats can point to their obstruction and use it as the reason that they must pass the bill using the controversial budget reconciliation process.
All of this might work quite well, even if it drives everyone nuts as it is unfolding. But, in order for it to work well, the blame must get correctly assigned and the strategy must be implemented correctly. The goal should not be to pass whatever shitty bill that can win the support of the most conservative Democrats in the Senate (plus Sen. Snowe). The goal should be to pass Obama’s original plan that he campaigned on. That means the Democrats must assure their own defeat in the Senate (or the Conference Report), and then turn around and start fighting for a more aggressive health care bill in reconciliation.
Will they do that? Or will a failed effort to win passage at the 60-vote threshold stall the momentum for reform?
To guard against a loss of momentum, it would be better for the Senate to vote on and defeat their health care bill, rather than pass it and have the Conference Report fail in either the House (thru progressives who have pledged to oppose a bill without a public option) or the Senate (thru Democrats and Snowe, who oppose a bill with a public option).
If different versions of the bill pass both houses and go to the Conference Report, the consequences of failure go up considerably. Not only is momentum lost, but it will open up fissures within the party and make it look to the public like the Democrats are incapable of governance. It will be very hard to keep the blame for failure on the Republicans. And the Democratic base will be badly demoralized, no matter the outcome. Midterm elections are base elections, and Obama’s coattails will be limited.
To summarize, the only way to pass a good health care bill is at the 51-vote threshold (including Biden) and the only way to do that is through the budget reconciliation process. The immediate job in September, then, is managing short-term failure. We have to make sure the blame for failure is assigned to obstructionist Republicans in the Senate and we have to make sure we fail in the correct manner (through failure to pass any bill in the Senate). If we get those two things right, the landscape will be set to ram a good bill home in October.
Needless to say, no one in the party leadership can say publicly that this is the strategy. But it is the correct strategy both politically and substantively.
Also posted over at Congress Matters.
I still think cloture in the Senate is the bottleneck. I can see a cloture motion running out of gas 59-40 easier than almost any House-flavored bill out of Conference not getting 51 Senate votes.
the problem is that the House bills probably will struggle to get 50 Democratic votes in the Senate.
Waving my vast ignorance like a giant teabag in the sky, I am forced to ask: So a bill sent to the Senate by the House only needs a majority? It’s filibuster-proof?
Only if there are 60 votes for cloture. You’ll still need 51 votes to pass the bill.
Thought maybe I was missing something in Davis’s post. How would you get a House bill to conference without breaking the Senate filibuster?
Make them vote on it. Why not try? It’s obviously close enough that one doesn’t know for sure.
My God. I’m just so sick of the political cowardice. When was the last time Democrats took a chance on anything? Republicans often take political stands that are unpopular. On health care, the liberal position is the popular position!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My God what a bunch of cowardly, unprincipled, children.
Let’s see who doesn’t vote for cloture. Lieberman? The guy Obama defended and helped get re-elected in the Senate? Great choice Obama! Support the right-wingers!
Who else will vote for it? Let’s see the handful of “Democratic” Senators that kills this. I want to see his or her name and his or her vote and I want all liberal resources dedicated to smiting his or her political career.
If we had a fighter for a president we would get’ her done. But we don’t. We have a cowardly appeasenik for a president–a cut and runner that doesn’t really stand for anything and when he does fight he attacks his own team!
we can’t pass anything without Snowe unless Massachusetts changes its Constitution again and makes an appointment.
is that what the excuse is now?
If it’s within 5 to 10 votes I want a vote anyway. Forget all the strategizing, etc. Let’s get back to basics. Put the three options up there and have every whore (legislator) vote his or her consience: one bill for doing nothing (50 milliion Americans w/o), one bill for public option, one bill for single payer. Whatever gets the majority goes on to the final bill and everyone votes for. If a REAL public option is the majority vote I want every whore to vote for it (including the Whore in Chief). Make him veto the bill instead of playing these games of what is possible and his chronic capitulation.
Let them vote on it. If one or two or five or ten Senators defeat it then we will know for sure what forces in America are preventing change.
I don’t know how Obama and you conservaDems think the pressure should be on the Left. The pressure is on the centrists. It’s the appeaseniks cowards that are defeating health care reform.
If Olympia Snowe wants to be the one Senator that defeats health care reform then put the pressure on her and make her VOTE. We can wait a few more years for reform–it’s the only way to do it.
If 60% of Americans wanted to attack mexico and all Democrats were against it you bet your bottom dollar there would be a vote and we would never hear the end of it. We would continually hear how all Democrat went against the wishes of America. Democrats need to do that on health care reform. FIGHT! You cowards! Or are you going to cut and run and leave giant bags of money for your insurance daddies as you retreat?
It doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to make a big to-do about a cloture vote that isn’t going to pass.
Here’s what I’m saying. I don’t think it is all that different from what you are saying. Let the House pass a decent bill. In the Senate, introduce some mushy compromise that still can’t pass a cloture vote. Then throw up your hands and point to the Republicans who refused to allow a vote on the bill.
Go to reconciliation.
The alternative is to get Dodd and Baucus together with Snowe and Nelson and Lieberman and Lincoln and Pryor and Conrad, etc., and have them hash out some piece of shit that they can all agree on. Once that passes through cloture and passes the Senate, it would go to the conference committee where it would be rejected out of hand by Pelosi and the progressive bloc. The bill then dies there, and all the blame goes to the Democrats. Where is the momentum and the rationale for fixing the problem through reconciliation? Whatever it is, the case is weaker.
It pays to anticipate problems and have contingency plans.
There’s another option as spelled out in Wikipedia:
Reid has the option to require an old-time filibuster complete with endless speeches and quorum calls. Let the Reps and the Dead Skunks stand there day after day holding up all Senate business for the sake of preventing a vote on health care reform. He could apparently also rule that 59 of 99 members are sufficient for cloture. Reid could force a cloture vote on the best House bill and shoot down the rest. But that would mean caring about real stuff that affects real people instead of doing his pompous Dance of Deference to the Wrong.
That’s kind of misleading. The Senate operates by unanimous consent, which no one is envisioning changing. So, you want to have a vote on a bill? You ask for unanimous consent to end debate and move to a vote. Tom Coburn denies you his consent. Now you have to file for cloture, which takes like 72 hours. Half a legislative week later, you have your cloture vote. If it passes, you vote. If it doesn’t, you’re back where you started. At no point does anyone really have to stand there and debate. They can just refuse to give you sixty votes.
The only way to force their hand is to put off everything else on the agenda…cap and trade, appropriations, etc., and demand an up or down vote. It’s a hell of a lot easier to use budget reconciliation.
Well, either you or the Wikipedia article are wrong on this. Yes, doing it the old-fashioned way would hold up all other Senate business. And every senator doing so in order to prevent a vote on health care would be spotlighted before the public and the media. It would be the honorable way to do battle over the most crucial issue of at least a decade. Well worth delaying another round of worthless Senate dithering.
Exactly Dave. But the Democrats don’t do battle against the real enemy, the right-wingers. In fact, the ConservaDems are more likely to shoot their own left flank. They might get a boo boo in a real battle and they are really scared. But occasionally the right wingers goad the conservaDems into fighting.
Want to see a ConsrvaDem go on the attack? Show him Kucinich defending single payer–not Grassely warning of death panels or teabaggers with pitch forks calling for all the closet communists.
No, make no mistake about it, the centrist dems threw their guns to the ground and ran shrieking from the battle field like the cowards they are. Terrified, the ConservaDems surrendered to the to Beck, Limbaugh, Grassely and goofball teabagger right. Without. A. Fight.
Who would of thunk it that a moronic troop of teabaggers could bring down what was once a strong party and ruin real health care reform for the sane 75% of the country that supports it? But the ConservaDems were last seen confessing their communist sympathies to some nutso radio host and his toothless goober comrades and otherwise capitulating to each and every one of the goofball teabagger demands. I wouldn’t be surprised if Obama makes a weekly offering of one administration Communist to be set on fire to appease these wackos . . . as if rooting out of communists within the administration will appease the goober right and not instead encourage them to look for other communists withing . . .
If you are a Democrat and were sucker enough to believe Obama and rushed out to the field of battle to fight for health care reform how demoralizing would it be to see Commander Cave-In making deals with the enemy and running around shooting the best fighters on his side? And worse, he wants us to sign a peace treaty that is as bad as if we lost the battle.
If Obama and the Dems supported real health care reform they would welcome a battle on their signature issue that sets them apart from Republicans. Democrats ran on reforming health care and its wildly popular and Republicans and health insurance companies are wildly unpopular. Yet the ConservaDems and Obama are capitulating to this weak enemy . . . .
You’re absolutely right Dave . . . .
Make the bastards filibuster for their corporate masters . . . I want to see Joe Lieberman talking for 10 hours straight about how he likes taking corporate money and sucking corporate dick while telling 50 million Americans to suck it. . .
You know, you are probably going to get what you want. At some point in the next three weeks, Baucus is going to mark-up a Finance bill, merge it with the Dodd/Kennedy bill and file for cloture. At that point, either all 59 Democrats and Snowe vote for cloture or they will not. Then you’ll know who is blocking health reform.
If they do block it, though, why go through the bother of holding up all other senate business when you can just do it through reconciliation?
Okay.
Let’s take this in steps.
Rule 22 came into existence during the presidency of Woodrow Wilson. Wilson needed a vote of the Treaty of Versailles and that was, I believe, the first time the cloture rule was invoked. At the time, it required two-thirds of the Senate to vote for cloture in order to force a vote. Prior to Rule 22, there was NO way to stop a filibuster. You can look at it the other way if you so choose. You can see Rule 22 as a way to filibuster simply by stating your intention to filibuster. But it’s very misleading.
So, what happens (PDF) when someone invokes cloture?
This is what you have to do to make a senator shut-up (yes, even if only one senator doesn’t want to allow a vote). Getting rid of Rule 22 would require 67 votes and it wouldn’t solve a thing, because we would revert back to the system where nothing could be done to get past the objection of even one senator.
I seem to recall arguments (from Dean, I think) that 59.6 (59 out of 99), rounded in normal fashion, would meet the 3/5 requirement for cloture. But gods forbid our brave Dems should try anything so bold.
No.
The House passes a bill and the Senate passes a bill. Unless they are identical down to last crossed ‘T’, they two bills have to be reconciled. This is not the reconciliation process. It’s the standard procedure.
Each house of Congress selects some conferees, usually people who worked on the respective bills and some of the leadership. Those conferees hammer out the compromises to create a single bill.
Then that single bill goes back to the House and to the Senate. If they both pass the bill (now called the Conference Report) then it goes to the president for his signature.
You can’t make any amendments to the Conference Report and you can’t really filibuster it, although Kagro thinks you can do something procedurally that will require 60 votes.
In any case, you have to reach 60 to pass the first senate bill from before the conference committee.
The budget reconciliation process only requires a simple majority. You cannot filibuster a budget bill because they have to get passed. However, any provisions of the bill that don’t directly impact the federal budget can be ruled as non-germane. Therefore, there are limits to what can be included in a budget reconciliation bill. Thus, the talk about doing a two-part bill. Part would be passed at the 60-vote threshold and part would be passed at the 51-vote threshold.
I thought maybe Davis knew something I didn’t about a House bill somehow bypassing the need for cloture. But no such luck apparently — the insectile idiot procedures of the legislative system trump substance no matter what. Truly disgusting way to run a country.
aha, the fog begins to lift.
ergo, it still all hinges on reids’ leadership, or lack thereof, because half a loaf, in this circumstance, is worse than none.
l stand by my previous comment.
“Thumbing their nose at the American people by ramming through a partisan bill would be the same thing as going to war without asking Congress’ permission,”
I have the feeling there are many who would enjoy seeing a partisan bill come out of the Village sausage machine for a change.
Umm…isn’t that why we’re having this little conversation in the first place?
Nelson = Nebraska = insurance industry shill.
And stockyards.
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”
— Upton Sinclair, “The Jungle”
could you remind me, and everyone else, exactly what “Obama’s original plan that he campaigned on” was/is?
i honestly don’t know anymore.
pdf
so it’s basically going to boil down to reids’
spinelessleadership in the senate to achieve the best case scenario you describe.that doesn’t inspire a lot of confidence.
alas, there was a time once when the likes of nelson, lincoln, conrad, baucus, et al, would’ve been leaned on, with prejudice, for their obstruction.
right now, we only have 59 senators. So, even if they leaned as hard as they could, we couldn’t achieve cloture without Snowe. My point is that it is not worth doing a bad bill at 60 when we can get a much better bill at 51. And then 9 Democratic senators can vote against health care reform if they really think that is best for them, and the bill will still pass.
I really don’t think Obama wants a good health care bill. I think he wants a bill so he has something to put in campaign ads, but he does not want the opposition of a) insurance companies b)pharmaceutical companies c) Republicans. He has said as much.
Ergo, the man who promised change actually opposes change. Screwed by a good speech maker with no morals. Again.
thanks for this explanation – very interesting and constructive. is Ben Nelson as committed to the insurance co’s as his current statements indicate? had occasion to talk w. one of his high level staffers and got a different impression. a major factor undercutting destroying the small to medium size farm ranch is the cost of health care; seems to me the ag. states would have a stake in reform. thoughts on this?
Small farms don’t have
megabribesbig lobbying operations forking over big money to the likes of Nelson.but small ranches have many voters – hence my question; NE is a fairly low population state, people know each other. don’t need mega advertising on teevee to reach the voters.
With the ad money he’ll be able to blanket the state with warnings about “socialism” and “big government” and the rest of the trigger words that farmers have always used to destroy their own hopes of survival. Presumably he thinks that will be sufficient.
There’s the same conflicted interests with most small business. There would be nothing more business-friendly than taking a large burden of America’s health care from the business community and having all America share the burden more equally.
If these so-called business friendly Democrats, the centrist, used their time to make this point about single payer or a public option maybe more Americans would realize the business argument for government-run healthcare.
And many Democrats have sold-out to big agribusiness a long time ago but still use the language of small to medium size farms. I know the farms in NE are huge too.
“gaming”? my ass!
i’m fed up with gaming. that word is synonomous with politics and i am fed up with that bullshit. there cames a time when the politics of a situation simply don’t amount to a hill of effing beans.
no bill should be acceptable to the president if it does not stop the providers from profitting from the tragedies of the recipients. simple.
the hell with the industries that suck the blood from the publics sweat.
if the folks that are the “leaders’ and who were elected in 08 have forgotten about the 20.00 and 50.00 and 100.00 donations and the fact that more that 60 million comitted to the o-man as the leader for change, then they must go. 2010 and 2012. throw them the hell out. stick the triggers up their asses and screw the coops and maybe, just maybe we should just stop paying the med bills and maybe we should just all show up at the emergency rooms.
how about that. how about that?
Hear, Hear.
Screw the positioning and gaming. Just tell us the truth and fight for what you claim to believe in!
But Obama is one big phony wimp. He caves-in to the right wing, he doesn’t fight them, and I don’t believe him any more.
Instead of fightig the right-wing thugs and insurance industries he will probably go punch Rev. Wright in the face or somehting.
It leaves rational and reasonable people with only one conclusion; Obama is a sell out coward.
Obama is being too clever by half. He is listening to too many center-right Democratic strategists when he should be listening to the fighters in the party.
Our side has a built-in problem in that we care about the consequences of our actions and the other side doesn’t, so they have more freedom of movement. Your proposal would definitely be emotionally satisfying, but also crowd out the people we’re trying to help from getting the only med care they have available. It would also put the burden on the ER docs, who are the MD group working hardest for universal health care.
Most likely nothing positive will come of all this.
Obama is committed to a center-right Clintonian triangulation strategy and was never even close to being a liberal.
The best we can hope for is for a House bill to get sent to the Senate and we get a senate vote on a real public option so we know which Democratic Senators are working for the insurance industry and not America. We already know all the Republicans would rather have 20 million American children not going to the hospital but the Democrats at least pretended to care.
Now we need a vote so the American people know just where the Democratic party stands.
Unfortunately, many Obamabots and center-right Democrats are petrified of us all seeing clearly that they are bought-off whores.
Let’s have a vote to see how many whores we have in the Senate. That’s the only way to get change. Reveal all of America’s enemies–whether Republican or Democrat or whether he is the president.
Get the best bill you can possibly get through the House and make the Senate vote aye or nay on that.
A bad bill is worse than no bill at all.
But Obama will never make a stand like that.
Don’t underestimate Obama. He will choose his time and his place, his battlefield and his choice of weapons. He will manoeuvre until he has everyone where he needs them to be, where a victory is possible, and then he will turn the screw. Yes it can only be by the reconciliation process. Yews it won’t contain everything progressives want. And yes, emotional rants will achieve precisely nothing except demonstrate to the wingnuts that they have succeeded in spooking part of Obama’s support base… Which is their game plan all along.
He has never chosen a battlefield for the left. Not on presidential authority, not on the economy, not on healthcare.
Not yet
If the Republicans know that they are getting set up for a more progressive friendly bill to be passed through reconciliation, will they vote for it in the Senate? Surely they must know what is going on. Would they have their most centrist members vote for the bill to ward off reconciliation? How much of their rhetoric is gaming the system from their side? By them voting for a watered down bill in the Senate, it would not only ward off reconciliation which would get a more progressive bill through; it would demoralize the progressive base and possibly affect the midterms to their favor.
yes, that’s a possibility, but I actually see it as more likely to happen in the House.
Here’s how things could go wrong. The House passes a decent plan with a public option and the Senate passes a shitty bill without one. In the conference, the public option is dropped so that the 60-vote threshold can be maintained. The House Progressives follow through on their pledge to vote against any conference report that doesn’t have a public option.
Bill should be dead, right?
But if enough Republicans cross-over to make up for the lack of progressive votes, they can sneak through a bill without a public option.
Would it be easy to pull off? No, it would be very hard to pull off. First of all, the Democratic leadership could deliberately spike the bill by getting centrist Dems to oppose it. Second of all, you have to find a lot of Republicans who are willing to vote for a bill they think will postpone armageddon or make the baby Jesus cry…or something.
But, it’s possible.