One thing gets lost when we focus only on the right of a woman to terminate her pregnancy. And that is that pregnancies terminate themselves all the time. And, when they do, there is frequently a problem that the remnants of that pregnancy do not expel themselves fully or adequately. I’m not going to get all medical on you, but the process for cleaning out a woman’s uterus after her fetus dies is not necessarily any different from the procedure used to perform an abortion. In fact, if a D&C is preformed, it is often termed an abortion, even though it is not.
And this is where privacy can really become a major issue. If abortion were illegal, all these D&C’s would become potential crime scenes. But, under the language of the Stupak Amendment, the same would be true. In the former case, we might be talking about a murder investigation. In the latter, it’s a matter of potential insurance fraud. I won’t discuss my personal history with these issues out of respect for other’s privacy, except to say that I have experienced miscarriage. It is heartbreaking and traumatic. And, the idea that my partner and I might be put in the position of having to explain how our pregnancy was lost spontaneously to an insurance agent, or a prosecutor, is something too horrible to really put into words.
How do I prove that the heart just stopped beating? Imagine having to make sure your doctor would certify that your wife had extreme hypertension, or some other life-threatening problem? Imagine having to prove that your pregnancy resulted from rape, or whether or not to turn your incestuous uncle in to the authorities so you could get your insurance money. When the Supreme Court ruled that abortion should be completely legal in the first trimester, they were taking these practical privacy issues into consideration. The loss of a pregnancy, for any reason, is a deeply personal trauma. Nothing could be more psychologically harmful than casting legal doubt over every pregnancy that ends short of term.
It is the violation of private grief, more than anything else, that would make a repeal of Roe v. Wade so deeply unpopular. But exposing grieving would-be parents to this type of abuse through restrictions in the provision of health insurance would create the same reaction. You cannot restrict or regulate abortion in this way without creating all kinds of collateral damage among people who didn’t have an abortion in the first place.
Sometimes we lose sight of this in our desire to argue from first principles. But it’s actually a point that I’ve made to many anti-choice people, and I’ve never failed to make them think twice about their lazy assumptions.
I also have first-hand experience with this (abortion, not miscarriage) and it is not something the government should ever get involved in. It is traumatic enough for both partners, and having to deal with expensive complications that aren’t covered by your insurance because of Bart Stupak would be inhuman and frankly evil.
It’s for this reason that the Dems simply cannot let this language into the final bill.
i also have first-hand experience with abortion (more accurately, secondhand, since it was my then-g/f not me that actually had it). i think Stupak’s amendment is the product of someone that has never had to deal with the issue himself.
stupak stinks.
stupak stinks.
You are being far too kind. Stupak is one of those C Street panty sniffers. It’s kind of telling that only one Democratic woman voted for Stupak’s amendment.
Twenty House Democrats voted AGAINST the Stupak-Pitts anti-choice amendment and voted FOR health care reform despite representing districts which lean Republican or are otherwise difficult. They’re worthy of your support to show that when they stand up and do the right thing, progressives will have their backs.
They’re ranked on this page from the most Republican district down towards the middle. Each of them deserves some support today — $5 each, $10, whatever you can do:
http://www.actblue.com/page/wevegotyourback
They’re just doing what’s right for their district, whether their district knows it or not.
I just saw Maddow point out The Family connections. Wow. Whatever I might have been willing to compromise on, I take it back. These are hateful, up to no good, old white boys. I was pretty horrified before, but now I am just downright furious.
Another issue that the Stupak amendment would bring up: since all of the people covered by the exchange will be those who are currently uninsured, and most of the uninsured are young people, does this mean that 20-something women are going to be forced/obligated to buy extra “abortion insurance” while 20-something guys don’t need to bother?
Let’s not forget that many, many abortions happen in unmarried relationships, especially to people in their 20s. Sure, a guy can offer to pay for the abortion if it is needed, but sometimes the girl doesn’t want to tell the guy (for whatever reason) that she’s pregnant. Or there may be complications that make the procedure much more expensive. The list goes on and on.
It’s a real dick move by Stupak and his cohorts to force young women to buy “abortion insurance”, something no single guy will ever have to worry about or deal with. It’s humiliating, sexist, unfair, etc.
Amen Booman,
Its always pissed me off that the pro-lifers have continually bring up the “ick” factor of abortion. Nobody talks about the horror of being forced to carry around a dead fetus for a few months. Or discovering in the third trimester that the baby has a fatal birth defect. The fact remains that the development of a fetus is never a sure thing and these restrictions don’t take any of that into account.
To prevent any confusion, the baby is just fine. My experiences with miscarriage are past-tense. We’re at 32 weeks now, so we’re past the biggest danger from miscarriage.
very glad to hear!
BooMan,
I don’t doubt your sincerety especially since you’ve been one of the few honest brokers on the left when it comes to debating the public option, but reading this and other progressive blogs hyperventilating on this issue, the only thing that comes to mind is ‘save the drama for your momma.’ The Stupak Amendment does not infringe on a woman’s choice and damn sure is not going to restrict one woman in this country from getting a D&C. Hell, medicaid covers D&C’s. Always has and always will. This over reaction is right up there with the liberal reaction to welfare reform…”It’s going to encourage poor mothers, mostly black and hispanic to abort their babies.” “There’s going to be an epidemic rise in homelessness.” Please!
This amendment will not likely survive, and if it does will be watered-down to token symbolism not worth the paper its written on. All this drama will accomplish nothing more than adding a plus one to half the country who now self-identifies as pro-life.
Rape or incest requires a police report. Under Stupak, you can extend that to all women in the exchange. The D&C is specifically banned unless you have the rider, or can demonstrate that you meet their stringent health requirements. So, any D&C must involve a certification that the baby was not live.
Even in the event of a dispute over whether someone was raped or whether the baby was live, etc… This is all figured out after the fact. Services are not denied while all of this stuff is being worked out. There would be a dispute process for this, like any other billing dispute. Worst case – some may lose their disputes and appeals and have to pay for the procedure out of pocket because the insurance provider was forbidden from covering it.
Jesus, Randy. Even under your unrealistically rosy scenario, we’ve just introduced a ‘dispute process’ into the experience of losing a pregnancy. That was my whole point.
There is a dispute process for any insurance claim that is disputed. Nothing new here. Move along.
You are being deliberately obtuse.
There is currently no dispute process for a D&C because abortions are covered under private insurance plans. That is what is about to change.
No one will be disallowed the D&C procedure and even in the extremes, it is unlikely that any provider would disallow payment for the procedure after the fact. No woman is going to bleed to death waiting for a D&C because her paperwork is not in order, as the hand-ringers are making this all sound. Worst case scenario, someone might have to pay for a procedure, weeks or months after it was performed, because it was determined that it was not covered. It happens all of the time in non-abortion-related cases.
So, basically, you don’t care that it won’t be covered, don’t care that people will pay for that which they cannot afford, don’t care that people’s privacy will be invaded during their most vulnerable times.
Did I say that reform should completely fail over this issue? Or did I say that this amendment needs to come out of the bill?
with abortions starting at about $400, i’d like to see you explain that to a low-income family.
I make plenty more than low-income, and a $400 price tag would be a hard hit. for someone who’s low-income it could mean the kids don’t eat or the bills don’t get paid.
I’m with booman on this one, and you know how thoroughly we tend to disagree.
I’ve called stupak’s office to inqurie on this, and i’m waiting for a response.
Why should abortion be free? Of course it should be safe and legal, but free? Think about that.
If I get in an at-fault car accident or someone damages my parked car, I have comprehensive/collision insurance to cover most of it, but I still have to pay a $500 deductible. I could get that deductible lowered if I pay higher premiums. But I am willing to take that much of a financial risk in the rare event of an accident.
The instance where abortion is not covered in this bill are accidental pregnancy. Rape and incest are covered. But if a couple who could have prevented a pregnancy don’t take a little responsibility for their actions and have an accidental pregnancy anyway, they should just get such a controversial procedure covered – no extra charge? The other side in this debate would argue that there should at least be some small financial risk taken by the person who managed to get themselves knocked up.
Do you guys even see how offensive this is to the other side in this debate? Agree with them or not, their opinions on the subject do carry some weight and they are not just a small group of lunatics as we like to portray them sometimes. Our actions sometimes have consequences and sometimes might cost us $400 (your estimate) for not taking the necessary precautions to prevent a pregnancy.
link
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Wow. Second-trimester abortions really are quite a financial risk. Maybe they should consider buying one of those supplemental abortion policies that aren’t subsidized by the federal government if they just can’t stand the idea of carrying a healthy baby from the second trimester to term.
Of course, if the medical health of the mother is at risk, that expensive second-trimester abortion would be covered under the standard plan, right?
It is my understanding that D&C’s are covered even if it is the result of an elective abortion that you paid for separately.
Randy,
I had a miscarriage last year….went in for an ultrasound to make sure it wasn’t an ectopic pregnancy, and it was clear that it was not a viable pregnancy. I had the option to wait (for up to 2 or 3 weeks) and let things happen naturally, or have a d&c and get on with the healing process.
It was a heart-wrenching experience, but it was a decision that we could make based on what was right for us, not driven by the whims of the government and my insurance company. I can’t imagine having to prove to someone that my care was necessary and met some arbitrary guideline while feeling so emotionally raw.
I’m concerned that no insurer will pay for certain procedures if the Stupak amendment is allowed to stand…and it’s not always about unintended pregnancies.
I’m sorry if I have rubbed people the wrong way here and I am VERY sorry for any emotional distrss that this flame war may be causing you personally.
I have no way of knowing just what it feels like to go through this personally so I really should just shut up and recant alot of the stuff I’ve said in this thread.
I guess what’s got me worried is not whether federal money goes to abortions. It should, like it should also pay for any other controversial medical procedure that some would argue is do to a lack of persoanl responsibility. I also think the other side deserves a fair hearing is all.
What really worries me is what this debate is doing to support for moving forward with any reform at all. I want to keep things moving forward and this chapter of debate, which I never saw coming, is getting ugly and could kill the whole thing.
What started out as what I thought to be fair-minded debate has really gone awry. I’ve gone and started a flame war and hurt feelings making arguments that I’m not qualified to make.
Please accept my apologies.
Thanks. There is usually more to this whole debate than many people realize, especially if they haven’t experienced it firsthand.
For what it’s worth, I think the Senate is going to screw up HCR even more than the House has.
hey randyh?
a lot of people take precautions and get pregnant anyway. And their lives get ruined.
I know because it happened to me. So shut the fuck up about shit you know nothing about.
there’s a reason they say “contraceptives aren’t 100% effective”.
you know what’s “offensive” randyh? YOU pretending adults don’t take responsibility for theit reproductive choices.
a lot of procudeures are controversial. Maybe we shoudl also make heavy drinkers pay out of pocket for liver transplants, and make overweight people pay out of pocket for cardiac care. Maybe we should make beachgoers pay out of pocket for skin cancer treatment: goodness knows “Our actions sometimes have consequences”.
So unless you’re ready to say all those people should pay out of pocket too, shut the fuck up.
Glad you write this, was just trying unsuccessfully to compose a comment along these lines. have had experience of this: precautions taken, pregnancy, miscarriage. lives not ruined forever, just in the gutter for four or five years.
You’re insistence on assigning blame for an “unwanted” pregnancy is sexist and reflects an ages-old desire to punish women for their sexuality. The fanatic right in this country isn’t it it for the fetuses, it’s all about controlling women’s sexuality and punish them for fucking. It was for the fetuses the would be more supportive of liberal efforts to prevent unwanted pregnancy, and they aren’t.
Approximately 100,000 women die each year during childbirth, or of pregnancy related causes. It is far from the problem free biological function the compulsory pregnancy crowd would like you to believe.
As to why they should be covered as other “elective” procedures aren’t…I would ask the same thing of someone who comes into the ER with excruciating pain from having deliberately stuck a foreign object up their ass. Why should that be covered when they simply could have chosen not to have sex with a wine bottle. Jesus Christ, your willingness to throw women’s rights under the bus are appalling considering I believe you are in a position where you would like to be treated equally as a gay human being. If I have the wrong Randy, please forgive me.
for fuck’s sake, could I have made any more typos?? You get my drift I assume.
No women in this country is going to be forced into dispute over a dead fetus in her womb, and you know it! Leave this fearmongering to the right!
Really?
So, I suppose that all people who want their health insurance to cover their abortions need to do is find a doctor to falsify a report, and no one will ever question that report.
The insurance companies won’t investigate abortion providers with added scrutiny now that they have to worry about running afoul of federal regulations, and the federal government will fail to investigate the insurance companies to make sure they are in compliance with federal regulations. The law will pass, but no one will behave any differently.
The issue isn’t so much that women will be denied care they need. The issue is that they will be treated like suspected criminals.
Well said. I don’t understand all of the hyperventilating over this amendment either. It makes the restrictions surrounding abortion coverage the same as they are for Medicaid and Federal Employee plans (which members of congress and their families must live under.)
It does not restrict any woman’s ACCESS to abortion. And the arguments claim to be in defnse of poor women who can not afford to pay for the abortion out of pocket, when these women are most likely on Medicaid where the same procedure is also denied.
The only procedure that the patient would have to pay for out of pocket is the chemical or surgical abortion. Any follow-up care like a D&C would be covered, just as they would for a miscarriage. And you will not have to prove you didn’t abort to get this coverage. There will not be criminal investigations, etc as some of the fear-mongers are claiming because abortion is perfectly legal. Insurance companies are not going to deny D&C’s as a cost-saving measure. That’s ludicrous. If you need a D&C and don’t get it, you could die. If not for the decades-old federal ban on funding abortions with federal money, insurance companies would happily pay for all abortion and related services to save themselves the HUGE costs of an unwanted pregnancy.
I don’t agree with the federal ban on abortion funding, but it’s not new as part of this bill and, in this bill, only applies to the plans offered in the insurance “exchanges” and the Public Option – where federal money is given for “affordability credits.”
This is not the time to pick this fight – right at the end of the negotiation process for health care reform. Anyone who thought they could cleverly cancel out the Hyde amendment by being vague on abortion-coverage-language in this bill is being foolish. In fact, if this amendment were not included, there would likely be disputes about just what other women’s health services are covered.
We should not let what should be a non-issue like this get in the way of passing meaningful health care reform.
First of all, Randy, you are missing the point that this amendment would result in health insurance companies not offering coverage in the exchanges even for women who require no subsidies. They’d be locked out of the cost-savings of the exchanges.
Second, you are ignoring the fact that the insureco’s would now have concern themselves with whether or not they were defrauding the government if they don’t investigate the circumstances of a D & C. Right now, the only people restricting this are the federal government, which doesn’t defraud itself.
This amendment would force insureco’s to drop coverage, and leave women forced to pay extra money to insure against an unplanned event.
No. It would make people pay for an elective procedure out-of-pocket. Nothing unusual about that.
Ninety percent of women buying private health insurance in this country on the open market (non-employer based) currently have coverage for this ‘elective procedure.’ They don’t have to file police reports. They don’t have to get doctor’s to certify that the baby was dead before the procedure began. All of that would be lost because of this stupid amendment, Randy. And you don’t think women are going to be pissed about it? Really?
Of course some people are going to be very upset about all sorts of shit that’s in this less-than-perfect bill. But it’s not worth tossing the whole thing aside (as some seem ready to do) because it’s less than perfect.
This actually feels like a bomb, gift-wrapped and planted for the liberals to find and blow up the very bill they’ve been working so hard to finally enact. And we’re taking the bait.
Since you seem to be completely lacking the empathy and compassion gene, try reading this DK post and get a fucking clue.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/11/8/134515/749
That diary offers no serious argument. It just accuses anyone trying to find a realistic compromise to this ugly issue and salvage this bill as not supporting the rights of women.
And for you to accuse me, of all people, of lacking the empathy and compassion gene is insulting. So bite me.
why? you clearly don’t and you make incredibly braod statements and assumptions about people who get abortions.
i hope YOU get someone pregnant by accident. and then I hope YOU can’t afford an abortion and have to live with an unwanted child for the rest of YOUR life.
then you can come back and deliver your little lecture.
Bite you? A revolting idea.
…You “of all people”? Who do you imagine yourself to be, the Dalai Lama? Do you even read what you have written? Calling this a “non-issue”, as you have, tells me that you indeed lack empathy and compassion and you are, in fact, clueless.
How about we ban insurance plans that cover broken bones? People can pay for it out of pocket. No biggee.
Of course, you’d probably respond by saying that setting a broken bone and getting a cast is not “elective”. Sure it is. You could always just go frontier-style and set the bone yourself, wrap it up with rope, swallow down some antibiotics and wait for it to heal. The consequences would be a disfigured limb, but hey, at least some extreme religious nuts somewhere would be assured that their money isn’t going to any of this newfangled “modern medicine”!
Hopefully one day you’ll see what a fool you are on this issue.
Um…NMP, I guess you haven’t noticed, but there has been an epidemic rise in homelessness the past 12 years. Circa 1996, there were panhandlers begging and sleeping downtown in our city. Now, they’re at every major intersection and on-ramp in the city, with burgeoning semi-permanent encampments in the greenbelts. And our city, in my travels anyway, is not unique.
Obviously, welfare reform isn’t the sole cause. But it sure as hell didn’t help. But that’s OK, the homeless mostly don’t vote, right?
Alas, people who are familiar with unwanted pregnancies – and that’s most adults in the country – do vote. And if this amendment becomes law, they’re going to remember that it was because Democrats fought for it in a Democratic-controlled congress with a Democrat in the White House. And it will be a long, long time before you see the kind of energy and enthusiasm Obama generated in 2008 happen again.
That should read “unwanted or unhealthy pregnancies…”
Sorry, I missed the reports on the “epidemic” rise in homelessness the past 12 years. I’ve read reports where there has been increased homelessness in certain regions and cities contributed to by a confluence of factors that have NOTHING to due with welfare reform. Even the most fierce critics of welfare reform have conceded it has been a success. I have family members who were 2nd and 3rd generation welfare recipients, completely work averse, whose lives were changed FOR THE BETTER when they forced to go to work.
The hyperbole then came from white progressives who thought they were serving the interests of African Americans, but they weren’t.
Don’t get me wrong…the Stupak Amendment gives me concern, but I don’t think it serves our interests to be promoting lies and fears to make a point.
I couldn’t disagree with you more. Woman who are going to be mandated to buy insurance should not be forced to pick a plan that doesn’t cover necessary and unexpected medical issues, just because one particular medical procedure is dislike by one group. The fact that you make it out to be no big deal is disgusting and reprehensible.
Abortion is not some experimental procedure, or plastic surgery, or illegal action. It is a legal act that happens millions of times per year. Sometimes it is relatively cheap ($350), but sometimes it is not cheap AT ALL. It’s just incredibly sexist and inhumane for old men in Congress to dictate to young women what kind of insurance plan they are allowed to buy.
Thank you.
In two cases of women close to me who had to undergo this procedure, it was both a medically necessary situation — and a time of grief as well, because both of them had wanted their pregnancies to go to term.
But what a lot of these so-called “pro-life” folks seem to forget that just because pregnancy is a natural process doesn’t mean that it’s an easy or flawless one — and sometimes things go wrong. And when things go wrong, women need all the possible options open to them, to get the medical care they need, and the support to deal with an unhappy situation in the best way possible for them.
This post needs to be widely circulated. Thank-you for it.
RandyH has no idea how far reaching Stupid’s amendment is, that is very clear.
That 64 ‘democrats’ voted for Stupid’s amendment is amazing and shows just how far GOP operatives have invaded the Democratic Party, for NONE of those that voted for (fake democrat) Stupak are Democrats, but really Republican extremists masquerading as Dems.
The Senate Dems are usually even more conservative than the House, so I not only expect Stupak’s Stupendous Suffering Amendment to remain, I absolutely expect the Senate (fake) Dems to insert even more far-right extremism into it.
It may be true that I don’t grasp just how far-reaching this amendment is. I’ll give you that.
What I am trying to do is temper the over-the-top crazy talk that I am hearing on our (pro-choice) side. There is alot of fear mongering going on over something that shouldn’t be all that controversial, considering the Hyde amendment applies to Medicaid and Federal Employee insurance.
When I started hearing some of these crazy arguments it made it all sound like they’re making abortion illegal or something. Just crazy talk. But I do think this last minute controversy was designed to divide the Democrats and kill the bill.
RandyH, you need to read this Alternet Article: http://www.alternet.org/module/printversion/143832/will_the_stupak_amendment_force_women_who%27ve_mi
scarried_to_lose_insurance_coverage/?type=blog
In short, the article is written by a woman whose baby died at 8 weeks. She is now 12 weeks and has three options: risk infection by doing nothing and waiting for her body to expel the dead fetus, take an abortifacient at home and hope nothing goes wrong, or schedule a D&C. She already has a toddler that is breast-feeding, so she wants the D&C.
She reports that the D&C is referred to by the hospital as an ‘abortion’ even though her fetus is already dead. The two hospitals in my region also use this language.
Stupak’s amendment would outlaw her insurance company from being able to pay for the safest choice, the D&C, strictly because it’s classified as an ‘abortion’.
Idiots like Stupak and the know-nothing Republicans want to pass absolutist rules having not one single clue about the full effects of the outcome of their stupidity.
So Stupak’s moronic woman-hatred would force this woman to pay herself for the safest procedure and if she had no money to pay those costs she would be taking a far more riskier options.
To slightly adjust the heading of this topic, my wife was speaking to a neighbor that wants a federal law mandating fertilized eggs as full human citizens.
My wife pointed out to her that our two still-born babies would then require a full-blown police investigation.
Deciding to have an abortion and having the procedure is an agonizing time for both the woman and the man. Having a baby die on you a week before it’s due date is also a horrible and agonizing time, for not only did you want the baby, but now you have to go through labor and deliver what you already know to be is a dead baby.
Imagine after going through that horrific tragedy to then be harassed by police and a prosecutor for suspicion of manslaughter. A large number of babies (26,000 annually in USA, or 1 in 160) simply die before they are born and even having an full autopsy, only 1/3 of them can even guess as to why it happened. So in 2/3 of stillborns there is no discernible reason as to why it happened.
If the far-right extremists like Stupak were to get their pet legislation passed some day, each and every one of those would require a full criminal investigation. How heartless are these so-called ‘christians’.
Our neighbor had not thought about that before, as I suspect none of those ‘christians’ have either.
Exactly. Miscarriage happens — quite frequently, sometimes before the woman even knows she’s pregnant. A lot of pregnancies fail in the first few weeks. Does every miscarriage after pregnancy is confirmed get treated as a potential homicide or manslaughter? How strictly are these people going to keep tabs on women who may not realize they’re pregnant yet?
I think every woman of childbearing age who has an unusually heavy period should have to go before a panel of doctors and law enforcement personnel. I’d go further and say that they should save all of their bloody discharge as evidence. Like the scene in “Miracle on 34th Street” when the postal employees dump all of the letters to Santa on the judge’s desk.
Can we just mail a big envelope of evidence in to them every month? 🙂
Actually that might work better ~ I don’t know why they haven’t thought of this yet.
We’d mail it in each month so they’d know who was menstruating on schedule. When someone skipped a month an investigation would automatically be triggered so they could monitor each woman’s possible pregnancy from the very beginning.
They could make you mail them your pregnancy test sticks, and investigate you if you don’t produce nine months later. Or, if you never seem to get pregnant, they could make you come in for a check-up and some couple’s counseling.
And then insurance could pay for Viagra to help things along.
The C street house will want to take charge of the couples counseling. in fact i expect that to be Stupid’s second amendment
Now, we just need their Fedex shipping number so they get to pay for all those packages…
something for the C street house here?
As strict as the Taliban.
I have experience with both miscarriage and abortion. Closer than I’d like to admit. To say that these are highly personal matters would be a gross understatement. I can’t imagine any inquiry into either of these events.