Well, now Israel has done it. They have actually provoked Turkey to the point that they may start a war over this incident massacre:
Turkey has threatened Israel with unprecedented action after Israeli forces attacked an aid vessel, killing 10 peace activists headed to Gaza.
Israel said 10 people died while those on the ship said at least 15 were killed.
A shocked world has responded with outrage. Turkey recalled its ambassador to Israel and warned of unprecedented and incalculable reprisals.
Two Turkish activists were reported to be among those killed in the flotilla. Ankara warned that further supply vessels will be sent to Gaza, escorted by the Turkish Navy, a development with unpredictable consequences.
Israel has sounded an alert throughout the country fearing rocket attacks by Hezbollah in Lebanon.
If Turkey is promising to send new supplies with naval escort, then we’re headed for an epic showdown between two of Americas closest allies. I don’t think Obama is getting too much rest and relaxation this Memorial Day.
Meanwhile, the Arab League will meet tomorrow and put immense pressure on Egypt to lift their portion of the Gazan blockade. I can’t imagine that Egypt will refuse. In fact, I think Israel has jeopardized their peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan.
All this, and for what? To keep construction materials from the Gazan people? Israel is not behaving in anything resembling a rational manner. They just lost the only friends they had not named America. And who can help them now but Big Daddy? The problem is that Big Daddy has more to consider than Israeli’s deluded interests. We have to worry about our own image and international relationships.
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What are our Israeli friends about? A democracy with our values …
(JPost) – “Traitor, Jerusalem is not for sale!” Itamar Ben-Gvir shouted at Emanuel in a mix of Hebrew and English. “You’re an anti-Semitic Israel-hater. You don’t want the Wall to remain ours. Go on a heritage trip with Hussein Obama! Go to Iran!” As police dragged him away, he screamed, “He is a hater of Israel, you can’t shut me up!”
Emanuel son's bar mitzva near Kotel faces court challengeMoments later, inside the Western Wall Plaza, undercover police officers suddenly moved in on Baruch Marzel, who had apparently tried to blend in with the large Thursday-morning crowd at the Wall, in advance of Emanuel’s arrival.
A handful of officers removed Marzel, who had refused to budge, by picking him up and carrying him by his arms and legs away from the area. A couple of Marzel’s supporters were also removed by police. A total of six activists were detained and released after questioning.
Ben-Gvir leads provocative march in Umm al-Fahm – March 2009
"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."Obama gets to talk to Turkey today. He already spoke to Israel. Plus everyone else he needs to talk to. I am so glad we have an intelligent president and that Bush is not in office.
Also, I think Clinton would make a hash of it.
It seems that Israel has gone off the deep end.
I agree with you Utried. I’m very proud of our President.
… that Obama is doing anything other than bending over and taking it from Netayahu like he always does?
Hmm. That was kind of a grotesque statement you made there. Well at least I know where your head is at.
I think your anger should be directed at congress, which is bought and paid for by AIPAC and other conservative jewish organizations. As far as President Obama goes I see no reason not to be proud of him because he’s done nothing wrong. I don’t expect someone to overturn 60 years of Israeli policy after only 14 or 15 months in office. If it were easy it wouldve been done already.
Also, if your so concerned, why don’t you stage a boycott? Hmm? I get emails from End the Israeli Occupation. I got one today in fact. They talk about boycotting products from Israel and writing letters to congressmen, stuff like that. Or you could get a list of all the fortune 500 companies that are owned by members of AIPAC and start targeting them. But your not going to do any of that, are you? Your going to sit comfortably behind the computer and complain. Aren’t you?
I’m sure my President is doing what he always does, which is see the long-term. I agree with him. And if you are such a badass, go to Israel and face Netanyahu yourself. You people bore me with your constant complaining.
Oh and… Happy Memorial day!!
There are plenty of people who do all these things and more. Doing so is not mutually exclusive with wanting Obama to show a little spine.
The United States today was virtually alone among NATO governments in not condemning this attack. Instead, all indications so far are that it will yet again block the UNSC from taking any meaningful action.
There comes a time when U.S. apologetics for Israel’s actions have to be labeled what they are: abominations. And that’s true regardless of who’s in what office.
Aren’t you forgetting, Boo, that the Democratic Party is bought and paid for by Israeli activists and interests? Do you seriously believe that Obama will diss Netanyahu, support economic sanctions or order a cessation of military support until the Palestinian issues is resolved?
The reality is that Israel cannot function as a modern economy without US support and the the US political system functions only as an arm of Likud foreign policy.
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(Zaman News) – Israel’s Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman has suggested that Turkey’s Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan reflects attitudes similar to those of Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi and Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez.
The remarks by Lieberman apparently came in response to Erdoğan’s recent criticism of Israel. The prime minister said that “as Gaza burns and dark clouds form over Jerusalem, we can’t stay [silent].”
Lieberman Shames Turkish Ambassador
When the ambassador was finally asked to enter the room, his hosts instructed him to sit on a low couch opposite the higher chairs in which they were seated. The hosts, Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon, Foreign Ministry Deputy Director General for Europe, Naor Gilon [ed., and suspected Steven Rosen intelligence conduit], and Ayalon’s office director, David Segal did not smile at their guest and refused to shake his hand.
Deputy FM Daniel Ayalon humiliates Turkishambassador Ahmet Oguz Celikkol in Jerusalem
"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."If there’s a bigger putz in this quadrant of the galaxy than Avigdor Lieberman, I don’t want to know about it.
Israeli version of events doesn’t pass laugh test
Philip Weiss on May 31, 2010
http://mondoweiss.net/2010/05/israeli-version-of-events-doesnt-pass-laugh-test.html?utm_source=feedb
urner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+feedburner%2FWDBc+%28Mondoweiss%29
Moshe Yaroni dissects the Israeli response:
Here’s what the IDF spokesperson said, in part:
I am sure, as is always the case, there will be those who believe this version of events. But frankly, I can’t see how anyone can do so unless they are so desperate to justify Israel’s action here that they’ll believe anything. Let’s examine the IDF’s version of events.
We begin with the point that these were civilian ships and Israel boarded them with commandoes–soldiers who are disposed toward combat situations and are not meant to police unarmed civilians. They’re fighters, that’s their purpose. But the IDF claims that an assortment of international activists deliberately provoked a violent confrontation (using potentially deadly weapons, but which still leave them ridiculously overmatched) against heavily armed and trained soldiers in order to “lynch them.”
Does that seem remotely credible? It only seems so if you believe the activists on board these ships were willing to risk and actually sacrifice their lives in order to create a scandal for Israel. Of course, Israeli hasbara (propaganda) is well-practiced in casting all Arabs and Muslims as suicidal lunatics, aided by the suicide bombers who represent an infinitesimal percentage of those populations. But this collection of international activists, including many Jews, Americans and Europeans, apparently are also willing to give their lives, and rather cheaply, according to this story.
No, the IDF version of these events doesn’t begin to pass the laugh test.
When I first heard confirmed reports of this massacre, I thought of the Kent State shootings in 1970. That horrific tragedy, like this one, was the result of a government using ridiculously disproportionate force against civil disobedience.
But at Kent State, the shootings resulted from high tensions and one person losing control, causing others to follow his lead. Was that the case here?
PS: I think Israel has a lot to lose, not just politically, but in material damage if Syria, Hezbollah, and Hamas strike back simultaneously.
I don’t think Netanyahu is among the smartest of Israeli PMs we have had. His arrogance is clouding his judgment.
An attack by Syria or Hezbollah would be a serious error in judgment (not to mention wrong). The Israeli attack on the convoy was an entirely unforced error, and there is no reason to draw the world’s attention away from it. OTOH, moving some troops and equipment around just to see if Israel screws up again would be a smart reaction (from their POV).
Hamas is likely to attack, though it will do little more than bring more destruction to Gaza.
I hope the three choose to not act.
What the text says is that Israel is preparing for attacks from Hezbollah.
As long as Turkey is pursuing this, I suspect that neither Syria, Hezbollah, nor Hamas will attack. I think this is a case of Likud terrorizing the Israeli people like Bush used to do with respect to American public opinion.
How on earth did Syria get into this conversation? How many years has it been since Syria attacked anyone, and how many times has Syria been attacked during that period?
So true.
The mention of a potential attach by Hezballah – or SYRIA?!!!!! – is a complete non sequitur. There is simply no connection between Israel’s latest criminal action and Hezballah. As for Syria – HUH?! Syria has not attacked anyone, or made any move to attach anyone in how many years is it now despite a number of completely unprovoked direct attacks on Syria by Israel AND the United States. So, how is it that suddenly Syria is going to attack Israel because of this?
The mention of “preparing for attacks by Hezballah” is such a blatant red herring I can’t believe you think they are serious about it – you don’t, do you?
Someone’s made that same comparison:
http://realisticpeace.wordpress.com/2010/05/31/israels-kent-state/
Recent information is that the Kent State shootings were based on voice orders from the Ohio Adjutant General. There is a segment of audio that wasn’t intelligible at the time that was cleaned up with audio software by respected forensic audio technicians.
So the bad apple theory doesn’t wash in the case of Kent State.
And likely doesn’t either in the case of this action.
If there was anyone “losing control”, it was likely the squad leader giving commands in the midst of the boarding.
Plus, of course, the fact that apparently none of the dead are Israeli. How does it happen that the side that attacks first with firearms is the only side that suffers losses? AP reports that “A high-ranking naval official displayed a box confiscated from the boat containing switchblades, slingshots, metal balls and metal bats.” The much vaunted Israeli commandos had to kill people to defend themselves from such weapons? Really? Or was it just a matter of business as usual in Israel’s ongoing “defense” of its landgrabs?
To say nothing of the fact that Israel had no right whatever to launch such an attack in international waters. Piracy, or act of war? You choose. Either way, even if the activists had been as scary as Israel claims, they had a perfect right to defend themselves from their attackers by any means necessary.
This was not widely published but there was a second smaller convoy of three boats to follow the main flotilla in three days. These boats might constitute those initially reported disabled, and unable to make the main convoy.
If Turkey is serious, this confrontation could happen sooner than later.
I think Turkey will wait to see what the reaction is from the other NATO states before putting its warships on the line.
I’m curious to see how the NATO reaction breaks down. Will we get an Anglo-continental split, America alone, Turkey alone, or a muddle?
America alone. The rest of NATO is almost automatically off the reservation on this one.
I wouldn’t count on the UK, either. Tory dreams of the UK ‘punching above its weight’ and infatuation with the Special Relationship most definitely do not apply the moment Israel is in the mix.
how many Americans will rush to join the Turks on their ships as they go to war with Israel?
Especially since they can’t be bothered to join their own military.
Keyboard soldiers, all.
The problem is that Big Daddy has more to consider than Israeli’s deluded interests. We have to worry about our own image and international relationships.
The US has been putting it’s own interests behind Israel’s for a while. I don’t think this tragedy will change the order of precedence.
Turkey is a member of NATO. Israel is not. Turkey is a candidate for EU membership. Israel is not. If Turkey goes through with its threat to send military ships with relief goods for Gaza, and Israel does its usual macho idiot response, does the US and Europe join the allies it is committed to, or does it betray its formal obligations and side with the aggressor?
This has the potential to be a historic turning point in Israel’s relations with the rest of the world. Even US patience will not last forever, and the turnaround will be blindingly quick once it begins.
Please don’t use terms that have a real legal meaning incorrectly. It is not piracy. Piracy is a crime committed by non-state actors. What Israel did in international waters to a vessel that was non-Israeli flagged is aggression and an act of war against the nation whose flag was flying over the vessel attacked. If the vessel had been in Israeli waters, it could have been legally boarded and force would have been legal if the vessel refused to halt or leave Israeli waters. Of course, opening fire on a civilian vessel refusing orders in your own waters may not be the best thing to do, but it would be legal under international law. The US has opened fire on civilian drug smuggler ships in US waters. All maritime nations do this. But international waters is a different thing. One question I have is where exactly this occurred. How many miles/kms off the Israeli coast? Or was it off the Gaza coast in waters claimed by Israel? If it was within 12 miles of the Gaza coast, it is stickier. If I recall correctly, Israel claims the waters off Gaza as their own, and they have a colorable claim under international law (as do the Palestinians). I’m not saying an Israeli raid in those waters would be absolutely legal, but it is not a cut-and-dried matter. Does anyone know where exactly the raid took place (latitude & longitude)?
I didn’t use the word piracy.
Sorry Boo…I didn’t mean to insinuate that you had…I was speaking to the folks on previous threads that did use piracy.
I have not seen Israel contest the claim that the flotilla was in international waters, only claim that it was “approaching” the blockade limit. I don’t have the link handy, but the last reported coordinates before the attack put it about 80 miles off the Israeli coast, NW of Tel Aviv and NNW of Gaza, and clearly in international waters. Not near Gazan waters at all.
Three of the ships were flying the Turkish flag, with the other five in the flotilla flying other assorted European flags (Swedish, Irish, etc.) In the reports that I’ve seen it’s not clear yet, beyond the main Turkish ship, which other five were seized. Sweden’s was definitely one. Any way you cut it, Israel just committed an act of war against several NATO members the US is bound by treaty to defend. (Holds breath) (Not)
This could well be the turning point at which the world will no longer countenance Israeli lawlessness, with or without the US running interference. To me it’s a reminder less of Kent State than the 1964 Freedom Summer. Palestinians can die in mind-numbing numbers and brutality, but it takes the deaths of a few international activists to get the world in an uproar. And it’s not “different” because it’s in international waters – Israel has no legal claim on Gaza or the West Bank, either.
“This could well be the turning point at which the world will no longer countenance Israeli lawlessness, with or without the US running interference.“
You are more optimistic than I am on this.
PS I don’t know any rational way Israel can possibly have a legal claim on Gazan waters under any circumstance, though they certainly continue to behave as if they did despite their repeated declarations that they no longer occupy Gaza while they continue to exercise all the control of an occupier.
I just saw that Turkey has requested and has been granted a NATO hearing on whether to invoke Article V.
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BRUSSELS (NATO) – NATO is deeply concerned about the loss of life in this incident. We look forward to a further establishment of the facts of what has happened.
Turkey and Greece
celebrate 58 years of NATO membership
"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."“This could well be the turning point at which the world will no longer countenance Israeli lawlessness”
And do, WHAT?
Israel is within its rights to stop ships trying to break a blockade by escalating means in international waters. That’s what the law says (looked at it).
But the West Bank is occupied territory. That means Israel is trying to blockade itself which throws things into confusion.
First, we are not talking about the West Bank, we are talking about Gaza, which Israel claims it has stopped occupied while treating it, including its waters, very much as occupied territory. Israel can’t have it both ways (well, actually, it can, but it shouldn’t be able to).
Second, the blockade is completely illegal. More than that it is collective punishment of a civilian population, which makes it a war crime, and it might even rise to the level of a crime against humanity. Israel has no legal right to enforce an illegal blockade.
Yes, clearly I meant Gaza. Thank you for point that out.
Right, if Israel is an occupying power it IS the territory administrator and can’t blockade itself. The whole point is that blockade isn’t legal.
Well, exactly. No matter how you cut it, the blockade constitutes collective punishment, and is a war crime. It is also fully and openly intended as collective punishment, which makes it a brazen act as well.
And for all its declaration that it has ended its occupation of Gaza, as long as it retains control over Gaza’s borders, Gaza’s coastal waters, and so on, Israel continues to occupy Gaza, and is therefore responsible for the welfare of the population whether or not it bases troops inside.
“The last GPS signal from the flotilla, sent just prior to the attack, placed the ships at latitude:32.64113, longitude:33.56727 – approximately 65 miles off the coast of Netanya, well in international waters.” (http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/2010/05/1005)
But seeing as the IDF spokesperson acknowledged at the outset that the Israelis were operating in international waters, this is something of a moot point:
Like I can go next door and shoot my neighbor in his living room because I have a right to defend myself.
Thanks! The Israelis are basing their action on the flotilla’s plan to ignore the blockade, which I think is an illegal one anyway. What idiots…why board a vessel in international waters that has not approached your blockade? If they had been smart, they would have waited until the flotilla approached the 20 nautical mile mark (which I believe is the Israeli blockade limit). Then in broad daylight, with cameras rolling, intercept them, board them, and make them go to an Israeli port. Following the rules would have disarmed the incident. Going cowboy has been a fiasco. To paraphrase Tallyrand, it was worse than a crime, it was a mistake.
Huffington Post now headlining the massacre:
ISRAELI TROOPS STORM AID SHIP IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS, 9 KILLED INTERNATIONAL OUTCRY.. ISRAEL ALLY TURKEY PULLS AMBASSADOR.. VIDEO FROM RAID.. ISRAEL CANCELS OBAMA MEETING.. WHITE HOUSE EXPRESSES CONCERN
MJ Rosenberg: Flotilla Attack Is Israel’s Kent State.. Foreign Policy: Why The Gaza Boat Deaths Are A Huge Deal.. Marc Lynch: Obama Cannot Ignore This
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/
He’s already dragging Obama into another disastrous capitulation.
As far as I can tell, White House has been essentially silent so far.
If you’re privy to information the rest of us, aren’t please share.
In a way you have to admire Netanyahu here. He’s just fucked Obama so hard that Obama has no choice but to thank him.
Netanyahu has set into motion a series of moves with only one outcome: Obama loses all credibility with the Islamic world.
If it’s a choice between Turkey, Egypt, Jordan, the Emirates, Saudi Arabia and the rest of the Islamic world on one side and Israel on the other, Obama’s choice has already been made for him.
The intervening time is just so much smoke and air.
The most effective move in chess is one that forces your opponent into one one possible path of responses. Obama’s just been told “Mate in five.”
For their part, the rest of the world will play along until Obama’s cards are on the table and we side with Israel.
And then the peace process dies for another generation.
… but I think you just nailed it.
If you’re talking about an Israel attack on Turkish military warships, I don’t see how the US can side with Israel. It can try and set itself up as a “neutral negotiator” or something, but it can’t side with Israel on what the rest of the world will recognize as an act of war.
It’s not just the Islamic world on one side and Israel on the other. It’s a NATO ally on one side and Israel on the other. Turkey is the one that’s been thrust into the power position now, not Israel. If they choose to push it, Obama can’t possibly go all-out with Israel.
No offense, but that’s exactly what our Israel policy has consisted of for decades.
This will be no different.
Mate in five.
“the peace process dies for another generation.“
What “peace process”? Oh – you mean the decades-long process by which Israel, with the active complicity of the United States, uses the pretense of seeking peace to continue its expropriation and colonization with the intention of obviating the creation of a Palestinian state.
Not disagreeing with you.
Israel.
Don’t know if anyone reported this information, gathered by Richard Silverstein (Tikan Olam):
I’m certain we will hear more tomorrow about the diplomatic stir.
Hillary will don her best school marm expression, and declare that it was all really just “not helpful at all”.
I’m glad that someone else reads him. I’m still waiting on Joshua Landis.
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(JPost) Apr. 4, 2010 – Turkish ambassador Ahmet Oguz Celikkol has been recalled and will be replaced after less than a year in office, Ankara announced on Sunday.
According to Turkish reports, Celikkol’s replacement will be Kerim Uras, a local diplomat who is an expert on Middle Eastern affairs. The reason for the move was not disclosed.
In January, reports surfaced that Celikkol asked to be recalled after a humiliating public debacle in which he was seated on a lower chair than that of Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon and another Israeli diplomat when he the ambassador was summoned to the Foreign Ministry. The Jerusalem Post reported in February that Celikkol had never not requested reassignment, but had said that there was “no way back” from the disrespectful insult.
Turkey recalls ambassador to Israel
"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."Via Glennzilla:
http://usun.state.gov/briefing/statements/2010/142381.htm
I hope Rahm and his family are on a flight home.
There’s no way that this was planned by Netanyahu, especially while he was on a visit over here. However, planned or not planned, his total acceptance of the arrogant attitude of those in his cabinet (and in other leadership positions in Israel) towards the Palestinians helped to create the mindset and culture of the Israeli military of today that caused this to happen.
So you’re saying this was a rogue attack without official sanction? That’s pretty hard to swallow. If that’s the case, though, this becomes an act of piracy. Seems like Israel has pretty much acknowledged the attack as based on official orders.
No I’m saying the opposite. I think that it absolutely was sanctioned by Netanyahu in the same way that Abu Ghraib was sanctioned by Bush.
Recently Turkey has made a deal with Iran and Brazil to handle Iran’s uranium. Also, Turkey is working with Russia to run a pipeline to Europe. Long short, Turkey’s, the EU’s, Russia’s and even Iran’s interests are diverging from the U.S.’s.
This is not going to help.
There is absolutely no evidence that Turkey will either start a war or will send new supplies with a naval escort.
It’s a bit bizarre in any case to suggest that Turkey will start a war given that as usual it is Israel that has committed an act of war by attacking a Turkish flagged ship and murdering Turkish citizens.
I’m sure you’re correct but Turkey hasn’t claimed that. Bizarre or not, Booman has no basis for his claims.
My view is that not only was BooMan’s claim bizarre, there is no basis for it. Therefore, we are in agreement.
That’s a chicken and egg argument, but Turkey and Israel are not currently at war and I would not expect Israel to take any further provocative acts against Turkey. So, there is no war right now.
However, if Turkey tries to enter Gaza with their Navy, that is a decision to start a war. At that point, it will be up to one of them to back down, but if neither of them do, it will have been Turkey’s first decision that cast the die.
The problem is that: If Turkey is promising to send new supplies with naval escort
have been transformed to:
antiwar.com — Turkey: Future Gaza Aid Ships Will Have Military Escorts
alternet — Turkey Promises to Send Supplies to Gaza With Naval Escort
Which is bullshit, and has the potential of discrediting progressive news.
And we haven’s had to deal with: They have actually provoked Turkey to the point that they may start a war
yet.
Israel commits acts of aggression and acts of war on a regular basis, but it is always the other guy who gets blamed for “starting the war”.
Maybe so. But Israel does not plan on bombing Ankara.
Wow, what a convincing argument.
I wonder who you blame for starting World War One.
Most people blame Russia for mobilizing their forces. I take it you would stick with Serbia.
Nice diversion attempt, Booman, but we are talking about Israel now.
this post by you is running over at Alternet
http://blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy/2010/05/31/turkey-promises-to-send-supplies-to-gaza-with-naval-e
scort/