I don’t think the New York City police should be torturing peaceful demonstrators with pepper spray, but I don’t understand why I am supposed to care about this whole #OccupyWallStreet protest. There is no platform, no legislative vehicle, no coherent call to action, no overriding message, and very little in the way of any point. While the enterprise is less nihilistic than the Rodney King riots or the recent unpleasantness in England, it is even less effectual. I am not sure they are even being successful in inconveniencing anyone. The best I can say for the whole effort is that at least they haven’t created a right-wing backlash. If you want to hurt Wall Street without hurting everyone else in the process, develop a legislative goal that sticks it to Wall Street without further tanking the economy. Walking around in circles in Lower Manhattan and chanting “This is what Democracy looks like” is little different from holing up in your apartment with a week’s worth of free porn. It’s nothing more than a Wank-a-Thon, and I find the whole thing boring and depressing.
I mean, look at this:
Just for the record, I love cops. I do, my mother worked in the justice system for 30 years, and I’ve known a lot of really good cops, really good honorable people just doing their jobs. I’ve never agreed with the sentiment, “Fuck the Po-lice,” and I still don’t. But these guys are fucked up. There was an anger in those white-shirt’s eyes that said, “You don’t matter.” And whether they were just scared or irrational or looking for a target for their rage, there was no excuse for their abuse of authority. I had always thought that people who complained about police brutality must have done something to provoke it, that surely cops wouldn’t hurt people without a really good reason. But they do. We were on the curb, we were contained, we were unarmed. Pepper spray hurts like hell, and the experience only makes me wish I’d done something more to deserve it.
And that’s the problem. People aren’t doing anything worth commenting on. They don’t deserve a response, let alone pepper spray. When they deserve the pepper spray, maybe I will give a shit.
Thanks, Booman. I’ve been thinking this for days.
I was once pepper-sprayed at a protest and I couldn’t relate more to what this young woman wrote. My protest accomplished absolutely nothing. When I became an organizer I accomplished a few small things.
… they remind me a little of bloggers. Lots of loud, unfocused effort with little to actually show for it. They may get some attention, but not from anyone who matters, and are easily dismissed.
Oh. Um, I mean, most bloggers. Not you, of course.
I understand the protesters’ frustration and, frankly, incredulity that the world isn’t a more just place where the people they’re protesting aren’t in jail, or societal pariahs. As near as I can tell they’re engaging in a cross between what Michael Franti, a long time ago, labeled “primal scream therapy,” and some sort of naive hope that their courage and dedication will spawn some sort of Arab Springish uprising. But that shit don’t happen overnight – despite the context-free way our media usually portrays it – and the prodigious logistical organizing that’s going into keeping this protest going is talent that hopefully will one day also be spent in other ways that more genuinely challenge the status quo.
I’m loathe to get too down on the protesters. The whole of the mainstream political and media world already thinks they’re idiots; why pile on? They don’t know what works, and frankly, for the scale of change they want, none of us do. I’m fairly confident that what they’re doing won’t work, but they need to figure that out for themselves (hopefully without too many casualties, physical or psychic), and hopefully move on to more focused organizing that will have more of an impact. They have passion, and frankly, so few people these days do that I really don’t want them to lose it.
That’s right. They’re not, in fact, holing up in their apartments with a week’s worth of free porn. They’re attempting real life. So good for them.
My question is: if they’re all just wanking, why aren’t they safe?
Clearly someone sees what they’re doing as threatening, especially if it served as a harbinger for bigger things to come.
and yet, our host in his cabin in the woods calls them wankers.
I couldn’t wrap my head around why our progressive host would sneer at something that could positively inspire change, not “change.” Glennzilla wrote down my feelings today:
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/09/28/protests?utm_source=feedburner&utm_
medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+salon%2Fgreenwald+%28Glenn+Greenwald%29&utm_content=Google+
Reader
Booman really couldn’t waste his beautiful mind on such frivolity. Obama is our only hope!
What I hope these folks realize is that what they are wanting to accomplish won’t happen overnight, that what they’re doing now is not an end point but a beginning of a long struggle. I write off the perception of irrelevance in part due to the lack of any tangible coverage. If it were a Tea Party thing, there would be 24/7 coverage complete with expert analysis. Heck if it were a pro-Obama thing, the Big Important People among the so-called “progressive” punditry would be all over it. But if it’s a bunch of predominantly young activists with little use for capitalism or the Democratic Party…oh well, whatever, nevermind.
Oh yeah, because the Tea Party protests had such a more coherent message? I understand what you’re saying, but this blogspot is a bit of wankery in itself.
Most of them are kids, Booman, and protests rarely accomplish anything by themselves, especially in the beginning. As young as I am I’ve attended many protests, and I’ve been arrested once…none of them “accomplished anything” in specific.
If I may ask, what do you expect people to be doing? Screw your thought process of using legislative action for one second, and think outside the box here. If all you’ve got is, “We need to organize more Democrats,” I think their plan is just as good.
John Cole is starting to pull his head out of his fundament on this issue, so you probably can too. I was in Queer Nation back in early 90s, and some of us participated in a couple of meetings in which we tried to coordinate strategy with other gay groups, from HRC to Log Cabin, to develop common strategy and figure out which tactics different groups would use – it didn’t come to much, but the premise was that there is no one right way to work for change.
If those who think the Wall Street Occupation is not terribly effective would put energy into organizing for their preferred tactics rather than sniping at everyone else trying to do something, we’d all get closer to our goals a little sooner.
Yeh. On a smaller scale it’s the same waste of time as the Stewart/Colbert fiasco. It’s a gathering for the sake of a gathering. If it were a gathering in service to a clearly defined goal, then we would have something. Likewise if it were a gathering in service to beating up stockbrokers and starting a pitched battle with the cops.
I think the left tends to into this problem because most of its aims are constructive and fairly complicated. The teabaggers had an easy time of it because their positions on most issues aren’t either of those. Getting a big group of people together to advance the Republican position on health care is a piece of cake because that position amounts to “DO NOTHING,” or perhaps “CUT MEDICAID, OTHERWISE DO NOTHING.”
It also occurs to me that occupying Wall Street might have been a wiser move back when financial regulation reform was up for debate. These kids are a couple months late on that one.
They’re a couple of months late because, snipes about lack of organizing notwithstanding, it takes several months to organize an ongoing occupation at even this level when you don’t have any institutional backing at all. And they’re trying to do it all through consensus, which, as anyone who’s participated in that sort of direct action planning can testify, can be either life-changingly positive or beyond frustrating, often both, sometimes at the same time. But it ain’t as easy or quick as getting your marching orders and a shopping bag full of cash from Dick Armey.
pepper spray. Get a friggin’ vanilloid receptor, dammit!
Each day it gets harder and harder to distinguish Republicans and Democrats. They each seem to lack pain receptors.
here’s another way to say what you just said that doesn’t fucking rile me:
http://www.ianwelsh.net/tax-increases-on-the-rich/
Thanks for the link. A sane and honest take on things.
One more thought: the biggest impact these demonstrations will have is on the participants themselves, especially the younger ones for whom this is relatively new. If it’s a positive experience for them – if they get feedback, for example, from more experienced politicos praising their dedication, offering constructive engagement, and encouraging them to keep at it – many of them will go on to do great things in their own communities, and a few at a national scale. If all they get for their troubles is pepper spray and condescension from the likes of us (as well as the predictable media distortions), well, next time most of them will probably just opt for the free porn. Which would you prefer?
If the point of the exercise is to help them develop skills in politically effective action, I’d prefer for them to do something politically effective.
It’s not the point of the exercise – I was referring to our response to the exercise. The exercise is happening whether you like it or not.
I think we disagree about what motivates people. The protesters have spent enormous time and effort (and money, probably) creating this event. And the one thing we all agree is that it’s not likely to have much effect.
That’s likely to be very discouraging, even if other people cheer them on. People get burned out and embittered that way.
On the other hand, letting them know that change is possible but needs a better plan — that’s truly helpful and nurturing.
Thanks for this. If they were doing something constructive with an actual end and a way to get there, I’d support them in a heartbeat. Get the CFPB off the ground. Elect Elizabeth Warren. Figure out what an effective modern union looks like and create a few. Figure out what it takes to support a vibrant middle and professional class without diverting so much lifeblood to the financial industry, and do it. Organize people without picture IDs to get them so they can vote. Groom candidates who represent your values. Something.
Walking around Wall Street? Whatever.
Oh, this post is so cheap and mean.
Because if they had a legislative vehicle and a platform, they’d be much more effective? That’s bullshit, and you know it.
The only way they’ll be truly effective if is the police keep torturing them. If the police go over the line–and granted, that line is shifting every day–maybe they’ll start attracting more and more demonstrators until this shit does mean something.
But at least they’re out there walking in circles, in the right place to spark an outrage. That’s more than most of us are doing–even political activists with platforms and legislative vehicles and all of that good stuff, that’s just going nowhere.
I think Rebuild the Dream is amazing, but it has less chance of really changing things than Drum Circle Idiots. 0% vs. .01%.
These silly protestors were accomplishing nothing. Screw ’em.
Everyone knows that political organizing is the way to effect change. Work hard to elect a Democratic president.
But then this…
sounds very descriptive of the Obama administration.
I expect that from a government. The only movement I expect it from is Brownian motion.
In any event, according to Adsense, they do have a platform — they’re demanding the creation of a high-level presidential commission.
How 1789-1848-1917 of them
I feel the same way you do, Booman. I have no clue what they are trying to accomplish with this.
“Platform and Legistlative vehicle”????
What the fuck is wrong with you dude? Somebody took a dump in your cheerios this morning, or what?
Are the Wall Street protests incoherent? Are the protesters young and perhaps a bit rough about the edges?
Well, maybe… on the other hand, since I am not there, AND NEITHER ARE YOU, we only have what information to base our judgement on?
Who is telling us that these are pointless public wank-fests being engaged in by losers, goths, and drug addled weirdos with too many body piercings?
And if they’re so harmless and incoherent, then why the fuck are they getting the shit beaten out of them in the streets by armies of cops?
You’re sounding an awful lot like an asshole in this post, Booman.
I am not even kidding when I say that I clicked in here solely to ask him who peed in his cheerios.
Well, first of all, this post is a reaction to an article written by a women who was kind of a passive occupier. She got pepper-sprayed in the face. Here’s her description of the protest.
So, it’s not like I’m repeating some dismissive coverage from the Wall Street Journal.
I’ve been to protests like this that had tens of thousands of people instead of 300, and which had a much broader share of the general populace. But, most of all, they had a clear message even if it was being co-opted by every fringe group imaginable.
This seems to me to have a kernel of a good idea but it’s going to waste because there isn’t any goal. It isn’t timed to anything. Isn’t the point to make people uncomfortable enough that they make some concessions? How is that supposed to work in this case?
How did it work in your case? Did the message your protesting group championed gain any traction in world events? Tens of thousands of people show up for a day and then disappear, and the media does what? And the people sitting at home clueless as to the controversy learn what? What concessions exactly did your protesting group wrest from the authorities you opposed?
I ask bc in my lifetime, protests, even record-breaking ones, accomplished zilch when you read the accounts of what happened next, and were in every instance lowballed by the msm in terms of turnout. I canceled my subscription to Stratfor in early 2003 when I caught them under-reporting an anti-Iraq invasion demonstration turnout by a ridiculous factor.
This to me is a logical extension of the Tar Sands protests. It’s not how many people you can turn out, it’s how long you can keep the event going. We’ve proven beyond all doubt that a single large event can be disappeared in the public eye with no trouble, but an ongoing event can possibly metastasize into something that can’t be ignored.
You know what a wanker is, Boo?
A person who shoots off his mouth without actually knowing what he’s talking about. I know, as I have been guilty of this before, but what I am reading from you right now is CLASSIC WANKING.
Here’s what I did. I borrowed a flip cam, went to wall street and asked the occupiers some questions, basic “why”, “what”, etc. You have no idea what they want, no idea who’s down there. the story the Times and others are purveying is simplistic and incomplete: I know, because I’ve met the people down there and actually talked to them.
It wasn’t expensive: the bolt bus costs $1.00-$13.00. You coulda headed up yourself and asked some questions. Instead you’re wanking. Wank wank wank. Your post is no different from anything Jonah Goldberg would be saying, and about as informed.
If you have to physically be at a protest to figure out what it’s about, they’re not doing it right.
“They?” Do you mean the protesters or the media? These days, unless you’re a teabeggar (sic), you pretty much have to physically be at the protest in order to have even heard about it.
The protesters, obviously.
The media wasn’t terribly kind to the people who protested against the Iraq War back in 2003, but we knew what the message was.
Ditto the immigration-reform protests in 2006.
Ditto the Wisconsin union protests.
As far as I can tell, “we” all know perfectly well what the message is here. The message is “Wall Street is in need of some housecleaning,” in some form or fashion. The media is not going to be kind to “we” under any circumstances that I’m aware of. Notice that they’re only now taking an interest in the Wall St occupation due to the Bleeding Edge rule of contemporary news coverage.
And again, I have to point out: Granted there was a clear message in the anti-war protests of 2003, what was the outcome? War. But at least “we” knew what the message was.
The immigration reform protests of 2006? No reform that I’ve heard of, Joe Arpaio is still on the loose and committing greater atrocities against humanity with every passing Arizona summertime day. But “we” lodged a clear message there on a certain day that year.
Wisconsin is a mixed bag. The big test will be the Walker recall. I think we have a good shot there, but that Citizens United money has a way of drowning out even the tightest message that we in the opposition can pull out.
What’s the point of a clear message if we just use it to communicate with each other? bc judging from your examples, nobody else has been listening.
“…in some form or fashion?”
That’s not a message, if you’re writing “…in some form or fashion.”
And I repeat to you, the media wasn’t kind to the Iraq War protests, or the immigration protests, or the Wisconsin union protests, so “the media is not kind to us” is not an excuse.
“Granted there was a clear message in the anti-war protests of 2003, what was the outcome? War.”
Your time horizon is too short. If you think the effect of a successful protest movement is determined by what happens two months later, you’re missing the point. The outcome of the protests was an ongoing, large body of Iraq War opponents who were instrumental in the reversal of public opinion on the war, leading to Bush’s weakness, the SOFA, and the end of the war.
Anyway, I don’t have to demonstrate that having a message always means that a protest succeeds. Of course it only works sometimes.
But not having one will fail every single time.
“In some form or fashion.”
Look, if you want to do the cheap thing and attack the letter and not the spirit of what I write, then we have little to talk about. Would it help if I said the protests served the purpose of “pointing an accusing finger at Wall Street?” bc that’s what I’m getting at. If you want to quibble with my metaphors or grammar or spelling, I really don’t want to waste my time here.
If you think I was trying to make excuses, then you really missed the whole point of what I was saying. My point was that media blackout has effectively nullified mass protests. If it doesn’t show up on TV, such as millions protesting the invasion of a non-threatening country, then effectively it didn’t happen bc it didn’t have an effect. Therefore don’t use those protests as an example of a better or more effective means of protesting than what is currently taking place @Occupy.
I don’t want to come across as a concern troll, but you’re kinda starting to worry me here. We invaded Iraq in 2003. What year in your universe did we withdraw? And what role did public opinion play in that event (which has yet to happen)?
No, it’s just that every example you cite of a protest that worked is in fact an example of a protest that failed to work, with huge consequences and massive casualties.
Look, it’s late here and I need to get to bed. I don’t know what time it is there for you, but regardless, I recommend you do the same.
joe from lowell has all the brains you’d expect from someone who never left lowell, HZ. And coming from New England, I know what I’m talking about.
makes peter griffin look like Aristotle.
well that’s whgat I’d expect from you joe. that’;s because you’re a wanker. you haven’t bothered to talk to any of the people booman condemns either. not one. I talked to a 92 year old lady who wanted the protestors to know old people dissent too. She’s been at it since she was 15. wtf have you done joe, other than make a snotty remark from behind your keyboard? How’s lowell doing? have you talked to any protestors? Please share, if you have. Your first-person, at-the-scene experience would be very educational.
oh wait. you’re in Lowell. You’re not talking to actual participants. you don’t know SHIT. wank wank. wank. just like the Booman, who’s safe at home in his cabin, no risks when you opine from the sidelines. It’s a llot easier to say “those guys are dicks” when it’s not YOUR face full of pepper spray.
heat the buzz joe? time to put your crusty sock in the laundry. wank wank wank.
You don’t have to be physically present. There is a 24-hour livestream, infinite number of tweets, several liveblogs including one at FDL for which I am pulling tweets as fast as I can along with some other persistent commenters. There is an official web site for the #occupywallstreet general assembly (http://www.ncyga.cc), and no a Wikipedia page.
Just because the corporate media have not legitimized it doesn’t mean the word isn’t getting out.
They should go protest at the Capitol for abolishing the U.S. Senate. Their message seems pretty coherent to me that Wall Street is full of greedy aholes who bring much harm to the world and have paid little price in the recession compared to average folks.
I have been liveblogging the events at FDL for over a week, and there is a huge point that the media until yesterday obtusely refused to get. And it shaped what little coverage there was.
The point is that the political process and culture of the United States is broken, that a lot of people know that its broken, and that the anger has gotten to the point that folks want to deal with it. But in order to deal with it, you cannot deal with issues or with legislative agendas, or with predefined principles of a specific ideology. What has to happen is to build the national consensus again from the bottom up and not depend on the manufactured (marketed) consensus created by the media (and that includes the political blogs). So the demand is for a new grassroots political process to arrive at consensus outside the media. And the demand is for restoration of the public space — physical space as well as cultural space in which to deliberate and assemble to demand redress of grievances.
The don’t deserve the pepper spray because in the current security state (and New York understandably is more in lockdown than most cities), just holding a march in the street is illegal. An event permit to assemble for anything in NY costs $4200. That’s a high price for freedom to assemble.
Part of the local coalition is Critical Mass. And they point out that a part of the reason for the high permit cost is that vehicular traffic has priority over pedestrians. But that is just one of the many side issues that feed into the conversation.
The fundamental grievance is that the 1% of top income earners have gained the power to create the economy, political institutions, and cultural norms that benefit them—no surprise there. But that creation is not working and the 1% would rather the 99% be impoverished and oppressed by law that reform the institutions. And folks in the 99% are finally saying “No” and undertaking a very detailed look at the alternatives.
The fact that they don’t deserve it is not a problem with the actions going on right now in (renamed) Liberty Park. It is a problem with the NYPD and the security state that the PATRIOT Act has built.
To keep up with what has been developed (and consensus is a slow and agonizing process), check the New York City General Assembly site. Let folks know that they can participate for a day or whatever. See it from the inside instead of the media’s view.
The current work is on a principles of operation (“Principles of Solidarity”) document, which is still open to discussion. And a call to action, which is still under discussion.
Unlike what you are demanding, these folks have not come with a ready-made set of ideas that they are marketing. And they are seeking that the discussion be ideologically and demographically inclusive. Because the 99% are ideologically and demographically diverse.
The point is re-establishing the lower-level connections of small-d democracy that is now seriously disconnected after 30 years of conservative dominance.
Another site is Occupy Together, which is coordinating the replication of general assemblies across the US (seemingly beginning with cities that are home to a Federal Reserve Branch).
A site to understand the strategy and tactics is Waging Nonviolence.
It is too early in the process to tell whether this will work. But if it does, it fundamentally changes the basis of the political conversation from that established by the Tea Party media campaign of 2009-2010. And by January, I suspect that folks will have seen through what the Tea Party really was.
The success of the OccupyWallStreet process depend on the number and diversity of people who get involved in it. And the extent to which the process is not co-opted as media exposure grows.
Wall Street runs our world. If it’s only to say that in public, and to say we don’t like it, it’s better than most political discourse. So yeah, they certainly won’t “accomplish” anything, but I’m all for people speaking the truth on however modest a basis.
I’ve been following this blog for at least several years, and I’ve had my disagreements with some of the sentiments and conclusions presented, but this is the first time I’ve felt truly disgusted by a Booman post. What would these people have to do to make you “give a shit?” Do something truly stupid to invite the police to open fire? If you’re on the curb, contained and unarmed and the police pepper spray you, beat you and arrest you anyway, doesn’t that rouse even the faintest sense of outrage? Have you ever heard of Blair Mountain?
We berate the young among us for not stepping up and taking action, and here we get a group who figure out all by themselves that Wall Street is full of crooks unpunished for their crimes against this nation, and for the uncountable misery they’ve brought to every state, city and town in the land, and these benighted youth decide to mount a protest there. Oh, lordy, don’t they realize their efforts would be far more effective mounting a local school board campaign, the silly little beasts?
Look, I’m just about 40 years old, and I never heard a word about community organizing until Obama became a candidate. They don’t teach it in schools, the other kids aren’t talking about it, even the more politically aware adults generally don’t know a whole lot about it. You can pish-posh these kids’ efforts as ineffective, but godDAMNit why not show a little respect for their willingness to walk the walk and to try to make a difference–not to mention the level of self-restraint they’ve shown in the face of outright police brutality.
If nothing else, you can acknowledge the effect they’re having at drawing attention to the disproportionate police response to their peaceful demonstration. As you say, they “don’t deserve a response,” yet they’re getting it all the same. Isn’t there a message there? There are all too many of our fellow citizens who still have not even the faintest idea of the police state we’re rapidly evolving into. Isn’t calling attention to that state of affairs worth some “walking around in circles?”
Doesn’t it deserve at least a little more respect than a derisive yawn and an insulting reference to masturbation?
Maybe the frogpond got hacked. That would make sense to me. This sentiment, I don’t get at all.
Were you blogging under the influence when you wrote this or what?
A wise blogger I know once wrote:
Does that sound at all familiar?
It should, because you wrote it.
Getting the fuck out of Iraq is a clear message. A politician can hear that message and react to it. They know what they’re being asked to do. What are the protesters in Lower Manhattan asking for? And I don’t mean that you can’t go down there and ask them. Everyone will have an opinion on what should be done. But they need something to end this sentence: ‘We’re not leaving until ___.”
My take is that the protesters are simply asking for people to acknowledge what we all know while we carry on as though nothing has happened. They’re trying to draw attention to what certain elements of our government and media have contented themselves with having successfully swept under the rug. “We’re not leaving until __.” I think the blank is best filled in with “the average gal and guy in the street stops to reflect on how we got into this mess, who’s to blame for it, and who’s been called to account so far.” That appears to be the strategy, if such a grand word is justified. It might just as easily be, “the cops hospitalize or incarcerate all of us.”
Simpler take, the message is: “Look! Stuff happened here! You know it, too, stop pretending it didn’t happen!” followed shortly by, “Ouch!”
Getting the fuck out of Iraq is a clear message, but look how that worked out. Where was the legislative vehicle there?
I was actually wondering if this post was in any way related to your experience marching in DC and if you had changed your opinions on street protests, or not. I remember feeling moderately empowered to march with all those people who agreed with me that we should get out of Iraq. We woke up, had a nice breakfast, met on the mall, and followed our carefully planned route through the nicely cordoned off streets while the people who could do something about it sat back not giving a shit. Ultimately, I felt the experience was a lot more valuable to me personally than it was at effecting any kind of policy change.
I’m not sure what’s better, a well organized march that can be easily ignored, or a bunch of really frustrated people who don’t know what to do, but I just don’t think it’s fair to shit on them from the comfy confines of behind a computer screen.
I felt the same way about the DC protests. It was personally empowering and we made some lasting connections in our personal networks, so it wasn’t a waste of time. Also, we did win the argument over Iraq and we got a candidate who had opposed it from the beginning and we got him elected. And we are leaving Iraq, however slowly and cautiously.
There was a purpose and a goal.
I understand that with Washington in gridlock and the next election unlikely to change that, that people need to look at actions outside of the political system. But you can’t ignore the political system.
My suggestion is to leave Lower Manhattan and instead occupy these people’s property. Let them feel the full wrath of a lost generation instead of letting them plot who our next overlord will be.
And I guess what I’m saying is that these people on Wall Street may be getting the same personal value out of this protest as we did from DC, even if they don’t have a clear message.
Perhaps most importantly, I don’t look at citizens’ action as a zero sum proposition. I don’t think their actions are in any way precluding any future action. In fact, maybe the leaders of future action will come out of these protests.
Are you serious? First, “those people” live behind gates with private security in leafy suburbs that call the cops when they see media, let alone scruffy protesters, on their streets. Such an action could not be sustained and would to all practical purposes be invisible. Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, as soon as you begin targeting people on one side of the Republican/Democratic pissing match, you get written off by the media and much of the public as tools of the other side. MOST importantly (see Tarheel’s comment above), the whole point of their critique is that the whole political and economic system is broken – not just one political party or candidate. “Wall Street” is as an amorphous target is perfectly appropriate, physically as well as symbolically, because they’re protesting an entire amorphous class of people, not just a single person or group. Bonus: it’s public space, easily accessible.
But you know what? If somebody went to those people’s houses and occupied them, I’d cheer them on. I’d think their stunt was kinda silly and misguided, but I’d cheer them on anyway, because we don’t know what works, and because they’d piss off all the right people, and because any successful movement requires a lot of disparate and sometimes contradictory threads. And “those people” really should spend some time being homeless, if only it means they can’t go to their preferred homes and have to relocate to the Hamptons or a hotel suite to avoid the unpleasantness.
well, if you want to do something outside the political system to change the political system and to change it in a way you want it to be changed, then you have to be smart and strategic. Disrupting traffic is counterproductive. Creating disorder is counterproductive. Making repeated demonstrations of your impotence is counterproductive.
But putting some fear where it belongs? Inconveniencing only the people who deserve to be inconvenienced? That strikes me as more likely to change how our decision-makers make their decisions.
Getting the fuck out of Iraq is a clear message, but look how that worked out.
Three elections later, we ended up with a government committed to GTFO of Iraq.
I wouldn’t dismiss the significance of the anti-Iraq War movement’s actions. Political change takes time, and they kicked and screamed their way into the mainstream and are, in a relatively short period of time from a historical perspective, getting what they wanted.
Fair points. I guess I was speaking more of the immediate results of the march I went to, which was largely silence and indifference. Except for the media reports grossly underestimating the size of the crowds.
Boo, there is no platform (yet) because it is not a corporate-sponsored or single-organization event. The primary activity besides “walking in circles” has been a truly democratic process to determine the platform and activities. Having spent a lot of time observing this sort of organizing in the Bay Area, I assumed folks here had seen it before, but I guess not.
Very disappointing analysis, although I do have to give you some space to catch up because of the media blackout.
For now, yer waaay wrong and firmly in the echo chamber on this one.
How about you take that Koch out of your mouth, Booman. This is easily the worst post ever made on this site.
As if the only thing wrong with America right now is that there’s just not enough hippie punching. The reason why Wall Street never gets punished is because backbiters like you concern-troll anyone who tries to raise a ruckus over the fact that the banksters get $15 trillion with no strings attached whenever they want it, and we can’t even guarantee school lunches anymore. I guess if they bust out the police dogs and fire hoses, you’ll mock that, too.
You know what’s boring and depressing? People like you who say that liberals suck and should just give up. I feel like I heard that a lot on Fox News during the runup to the Iraq War. Wonderful advice, that was.
You really ought to delete this post and blame it on a hangover, because wow, what nihilistic garbage. Are you really that old and cynical already? What the hell happened?
booman’s all about the hippie punching. look at his background. there’s a damn good reason he supports barack “half-measure” Obama
He identifies with the power elite, he just thinks the elites should be a little nicer. i don’t entirely disagree: the consensus for decades has been that the rich support the poor/middle class through higher taxes, and in exchange the poor/middle class don’t slaughter them. This worked for a long long time.
Booman’s failure (or refusal, depending on how you look at it) to see that the game has changed is why I get so frustrated reading his analyses. They make no sense given what is actually going on.
And that’s all I have tonight, and probably until next week when i decide to torment myself again.
Ad hominems don’t become you.
One of the draft principles of the #occupywallstreet general assembly is that every individual’s opinion is as privilege as every others’. Disagreement does not require censorship.
And don’t get ahead of yourself. Something has changed. A whole lot of people are fed up with the economic-political bullshit. That’s where we still are. But the game has not yet changed.
Patience. There is a lot of work to go from being fed up to actually having change on the scale, say, of the civil rights movement. And it will not happen quickly.
Prepare yourself for one hell of a political fight. And start thinking about what you can do locally. Because there is much to do in every one of those 3080 counties. There are rednecks from Alabama who are supportive and are going to #occupywallstreet to see how it’s done. Southern progressivism might just be reawakening.