When it comes to Glenn Greenwald, the last thing I want to do is to be petty and slimy. First, as I’ve said consistently, I think Greenwald is the best blogger in the business. His intellect is formidable enough that I am usually deterred from investing the time that is needed to adequately rebut what he’s saying. My political priorities are different than his, but I rarely disagree with his values. If I have a main criticism of Greenwald, it’s that he blogs like a prosecuting attorney. He isn’t concerned with the truth. He doesn’t want to convict an innocent man, but he’s not at all interested in making a fair or nuanced case. He will discard facts that don’t advance his argument and put the worst spin on facts that paint the defendant in a bad light. I think he’d be more convincing if he made a much greater effort to give credit where it is due, but he only does this in the most begrudging manner, if he does it at all.
He has recently written two large pieces (linked above) that deal with Ron Paul’s presidential candidacy and what it means for progressives. He has been at pains to insist that he isn’t endorsing Ron Paul for president or saying that he prefers Ron Paul to Barack Obama. He has taken offense when people have accused him of supporting Ron Paul and opposing Barack Obama. He has lashed out at people who assume that just because he supports Ron Paul on all the issues he cares most about, and he opposes the president on those same issues, that he might actually prefer Paul to Obama.
I understand his point that Ron Paul is the only candidate questioning the drug war, drone strikes, confrontation with Iran, an increasing level of surveillance and a decreasing level of privacy. But I have to call bullshit here on a key point. A recurring grievance of Greenwald’s is that progressives who opposed War on Terror policies when Bush was implementing them are acquiescing to them under the Obama administration. He accuses us of behaving in an unprincipled and tribal manner, where we only care about civil liberties and peace when we can gain a political advantage. I am sympathetic to this charge and I take it seriously as it applies to myself. It’s a moral shot across the bow of anyone who supports the president and his reelection, and it can’t be lightly dismissed. For me, that reminder and that moral constancy is why Greenwald remains a very valuable voice. But, here’s the problem.
If Greenwald supports the president over Ron Paul and over any of the other presidential contenders, then he can’t very well scold me for supporting him as well. My guess is that Greenwald will choose to vote for Gary Johnson on the Libertarian line. But, even if that is true, I’d apply a different test. If Greenwald had the power to choose between the top two vote getters and unilaterally decide which will be the next president, would he pick the Democrat or the Republican? My guess is that he would choose Obama.
There’s no need for Greenwald to apply the Categorical Imperative to his voting decisions, but the truth is that he’d probably make the same decision as the progressives he so relentlessly criticizes.
Yet, he plays this coy game where he won’t tell us who he supports. Why not just come out and say that, despite all his vitriolic criticisms, he’d prefer another term for the president than to see a President Romney or Gingrich or Santorum?
Why not flatly say that he prefers Obama to Paul? I think this might be why:
It’s perfectly rational and reasonable for progressives to decide that the evils of their candidate are outweighed by the evils of the GOP candidate, whether Ron Paul or anyone else. An honest line of reasoning in this regard would go as follows:
Yes, I’m willing to continue to have Muslim children slaughtered by covert drones and cluster bombs, and America’s minorities imprisoned by the hundreds of thousands for no good reason, and the CIA able to run rampant with no checks or transparency, and privacy eroded further by the unchecked Surveillance State, and American citizens targeted by the President for assassination with no due process, and whistleblowers threatened with life imprisonment for “espionage,” and the Fed able to dole out trillions to bankers in secret, and a substantially higher risk of war with Iran (fought by the U.S. or by Israel with U.S. support) in exchange for less severe cuts to Social Security, Medicare and other entitlement programs, the preservation of the Education and Energy Departments, more stringent environmental regulations, broader health care coverage, defense of reproductive rights for women, stronger enforcement of civil rights for America’s minorities, a President with no associations with racist views in a newsletter, and a more progressive Supreme Court.
Are we to read that and then come to the conclusion that Greenwald is describing himself?
I don’t think so. I think any reasonable person would conclude that he is not describing himself. And, yet, we get this kind of petulant defensiveness:
Much of the reaction to the article I wrote last Saturday regarding progressives, the Obama presidency and Ron Paul (as well as reaction to this essay by Matt Stoller and even this tweet from Katrina vanden Heuvel) relied on exactly the sort of blatant distortions that I began that article by anticipating and renouncing: that I was endorsing Paul as the best presidential candidate, that I was urging progressives to sacrifice reproductive rights in order to vote for him over Obama, that I “pretend[ed] that the differences between Obama and Paul on economics [and other domestic issues] are marginal”; that Paul’s bad positions negate the argument I made; that Ron Paul is my “hero,” etc. etc. So self-evidently petty and slimy are those kinds of distortions that (other than to note their falsehoods for the record) they warrant no discussion…
But when you get right down to it, I don’t understand why these critics are wrong. Their criticisms seem entirely worthy of debate. They have at least a surface-level of obviousness. If Ron Paul is so much better on all these things, then Greenwald must think he’d be a better president. If he doesn’t think that, then maybe he doesn’t think these things are all that important. If he doesn’t think that, then why is he being so abusive to all the people who agree with him that Obama is the better choice?
Now, one reason why I don’t have any hesitation in supporting the president’s reelection is because I don’t accept Greenwald’s prosecutorial case against him. The defense’s case for the president must be the subject of another post, but I want to highlight one more thing. Greenwald wrote above that in order for me to support the president I must be “willing to continue to have Muslim children slaughtered.” Then he wrote this in his next piece:
In The Nation, Katha Pollitt writes about Paul and says: “I, too, would love to see the end of the ‘war on drugs’ and our other wars. I, too, am shocked by the curtailment of civil liberties in pursuit of the ‘war on terror,’ most recently the provision in the NDAA permitting the indefinite detention, without charge, of US citizens suspected of involvement in terrorism.” But she then claims: ”Salon’s Glenn Greenwald is so outraged that progressives haven’t abandoned the warmongering, drone-sending, indefinite-detention-supporting Obama for Paul that he accuses them of supporting the murder of Muslim children.” Seriously: if there’s any way at all within the confines of the English language to make even clearer that I’m arguing no such thing, please let me know.
Does anyone want to help Greenwald craft some English sentences that will make it clear what he means? Because it appears he can only be objecting to the bold part of Pollitt’s observation and not the part where he accuses us of supporting the murder of Muslim children. Even Mitt Romney doesn’t parse that much.
So, I just wanted to point out these flaws in Greenwald’s argument. There is a degree of disingenuousness that you expect from a prosecutor or even a defense attorney, but not from a blogger. And then there is the way he reduces the debate about drones to support or opposition of murder. There’s the way that everything is framed as a debate between Ron Paul and Barack Obama, without the context of Congress or the political landscape. That’s how Greenwald likes to argue, with moral force and no mercy. I’d probably hire him to defend me in court, but I wouldn’t rely on him to give you a balanced picture on anything.
Bloggers are disingenuous to a fault. I have come to expect disingenuousness from bloggers to the same degree that I expect it from journos. As much as I like you personally, I find you to be disingenuous all the time. I can also be disingenuous: that’s because bloggers traffic in polemic, often openly.
you don’t expect disingenuous from bloggers? then why the fuck are you frequently bitching about Hamsher, or (on the opposite end of the spectrum) Erikson? Or Stoller?
Please, spare me the piety. Bloggers are as full of fucking shit as any other outlet, and none of us, not even you, are immune to that accusation.
I tend to use a different form of selectivity. I, like Glenn, write about what I want to write about, and that excludes all kinds of facts that wouldn’t advance my positions and desires. I think the difference between Glenn and me is that, with me, what you see is what you get. And when I engage in an argument with someone, I am not going bully them with endless citations or an insistence on my semantics.
You know I support the president and want to see him reelected. I never pretended otherwise. I think where your criticism have been valid is when you’ve said, “hey, you totally ignored this story.”
But when I’ve engaged on a story, I’ve been straight and fair with you, and not tried to use selective facts.
ah, I see.
Shorter Booman: “I admit I ignore stories that are inconvenient. Also, please note that what sets me apart is that while I am also selective with the facts, I also refuse to back up my point of view with evidence.”
Exhibit B.
No one’s straight with the facts. I honestly don’t see the difference with you and Greenwald. We have become in many ways our own echo chamber.
I ignore 99% of the stories out there every single day.
I have no choice in that.
But I admit it introduces a bias. I don’t write about the Fast and Furious program. I don’t write about some book about how Rahm and Michele knocked heads. That creates a form of bias.
But when I do engage on a topic, I engage on it. If I disagree with the administration, I almost always say so, and if I don’t it’s because I’m telling them privately. Examples of that are Shirley Sherrod, where they corrected it before I needed to write about it, and Libya, where they didn’t.
If you go down Greenwald’s indictment list, you’ll see that I’ve been critical on almost every point. I don’t harp on most of these things. I say my peace and move on. I opposed the escalation in Afghanistan. I opposed the process they used to strike an American citizen in Yemen. I opposed the signing of the Defense Authorization bill I opposed the use of the state secrets privilege. I opposed retaining Robert Gates. I opposed letting the torturers walk. I opposed intervention in Libya. And so on.
Other than Greenwald’s defense of Iran, obsession with drone strikes, and unqualified defense of Bradley Manning, I’ve been in agreement with him on almost every issue.
But it probably doesn’t seem that way, does it?
For what it’s worth, Greenwald is a vicious polemicist. You have your moments, but paragraph for paragraph, nobody can keep up with him.
I like you, BooMan, but I don’t see how you can think Greenwald is best blogger in the business if you believe he isn’t concerned with truth.
like I said, bloggers are as disingenuous as anyone else.
But few know his moral constancy is, well, less than constant, especially on subjects of import to him such as “willing to continue to have Muslim children slaughtered.”
Witness Greenwald’s support of the Iraq war, something that I’d bet most progressives (and certainly the president) opposed:
Oh, and Ron Paul, who’s supposedly so pure in his non-interventionist ways, proposed a bill in 2001 to give $40 billion in bounty money to mercenaries who’d work basically with no controls to go after people we didn’t like.
How’s it non-interventionist / anti-war to support having unregulated and poorly-overseen pseudo-military apparatus killing people in our name around the globe? Basically he’s saying that Blackwater and its ilk should be our only military – that sounds like a dangerous combination of free-market corporatism combined with interventionist foreign policy.
You nailed it Booman – he ignores facts that don’t help his case, even of his own hypocrisy.
well, that quote qualifies as candor. His mistake is probably what motivates him now, and that’s not a bad thing.
I say he is the best because he is prolific, consistent, principled, effective, and dogged.
But the truth is that I almost never read him anymore because he irritates me. So, he’s a great blogger that I find to be insufferable.
I don’t find him to be that good because he consistently misses the forest for the trees in his zeal to narrowly win whatever case he’s arguing. Maybe what I’m looking for is wisdom, and Greenwald lacks it and is trying to make up for it by being too eager to display his narrow but undeniable intelligence.
your comment is a perfect example of disingenuousness,
You know that the context in which Greenwald wrote that statement was in retrospective and with extreme regret. Yet you present Greenwald, who has otherwise been an extremely vocal and consistent public voice against the war (and the rest of the Bush/Obama crimes) as some sort of analog to a winger like Sullivan, running to the front of a parade he was never a part of.
If that is not disingenuousness, I don’t know what is. Thank you for being Exhibit A.
Huh? I’m saying that he supported the war and yet it’s other folks that are the ones trying to kill Muslim children? Glass houses and all that.
Did I present him as a winger? As running in front of the parade? I said he supported the war and quoted him. That’s it. It’s this sort of reflexive defense his fans (and he himself) engage in that are part of the problem, and I’ve never understood it.
You very much missed the point, brendan.
The point is not to cast Greenwald as “a winger like Sullivan.”
The point is that Greenwald was quite able to recognize that questions of war and peace are not meaningfully answered by shrieking “Baby Killer!” when it was him arriving at a less-than-pacifist answer, but can’t be bothered to confront the nuances of the question when his political opponents do so.
(BTW, “a winger like Sullivan?” Really? Did anyone ever tell you that you have a precise and fine-grained conceptualization of politics?)
I have always seen Sully as a winger. Once you start accusing your fellow Americans of forming a “liberal fifth column”, you don’t get to walk that back.
Sully was a winger until it became inconvenient.
I have always seen Sully as a winger.
I believe you!
Nevermind the gay marriage, or the support for drug legalization.
Did anyone ever tell you that you have a precise and fine-grained understanding of politics?
I’m guessing that the answer is no.
joe,
did anyone ever tell you I don’t give a fuck what you think? Or that I’m entitled to come to my own conclusions without your approval? Or that those conclusions might not be yours?
Well,if no one has done so yet, I’m telling you now. Thank you for your concern. Now go back under the bridge, I think the Billy Goats Gruff are coming.
Your lack of concern really comes through in your profanity, and in your decision to respond to my comments.
You’re free to come to your own conclusions; I’m free to find them wrong-headed and to say so. See how that works?
I almost always use profanity to some degree, fuckhead. Now shoo.
Are you trying to impersonate my cat when he realizes someone saw him fall off a window sill?
Because you’ve got it nailed.
Lick lick lick, look around, feign boredom.
I am coming to loathe Glenn Greenwald. He doesn’t even entertain the notion that I might be making the moral choice to support elected official who will hold the line against the complete evisceration of the Great Society, New Deal, and Progressive Era, and that I may have concluded that even very flawed defenders of the policies of those eras are still managing to prevent a vast amount of suffering in my own country. That’s my priority — keeping this country from turning Dickensian. But Glenn Greenwald doesn’t accept that anyone other than himself and those who agree with him live by6 a moral code.
Also, Greenwald is a terrible writer, who never uses forty words when he can use two thousand.
well, no doubt, he is not into the whole brevity thing. He writes like a lawyer. Not a bad writer if you’re a judge.
I might add, that’s it’s not only that Ron Paul rejects every single piece of progress since 1913, but that he’s a standard bearer for every Lost Cause dead ender in the country.
For people like me who cut their political teeth organizing in poor black communities (like our president), this is just a wee bit offensive.
As someone (can’t remember who) commented at Balloon Juice, one of the ways he does this is he uses asymmetric language for positions he supports or opposes. He’ll use imagery like “killing children” when he wants his point to get through, whereas the opposing case – evisceration of the Great Society, New Deal, and Progressive Era like you point out – is described in emotionless terms. How many children, seniors, etc. would be harmed by the reversal of those policies? Thousands if not millions. But they’re just beneficiaries of some abstract policy program in Greenwald’s language.
of that drones strikes kill less unintended victims than tomahawk missiles.
or that people plotting to kill us in foreign countries can’t get too much slack just because they’re citizens
or that Congress won’t let him close Gitmo or hold regular trials
or that he has deescalating our wars rather than escalating them
or that the Fed backstops the banking system by design
or etc. etc. etc.
Dead on target.
Greenwald Protests Too Much ?
Bullshit.
He doesn’t protest enough.
Here is the real kicker in that first article. (You printed it…):
I think that Mr. Greenwald has dressed this idea up in much too much confetti, too much makeup and stage lighting. Let me simplify it, please.
But Greenwald continues to coyly straddle the fence. Why? Probably so he can continue to collect his paychecks.
So it goes.
Just as it’s always been.
Just as it’s always been.
I got yer “truth,” right here!!!
Always. Bet on it.
Make good on your debts…to the world…now or suffer the consequences later.
There is a lot of talk about bubbles in the media…the housing bubble, the economic bubble. Etc., etc., etc. What a nice, harmless little word. “Bubble.” Awwwww…we’ve all played with bubbles, right? They’re so…so cute. So harmless. So…fragile.
Well this is the biggest “bubble” of all. A moral bubble. More like a boil, actually. And when it bursts it is going to spray its long-accumulated toxicity all over this country.
Ron Paul is the doctor that can fix this disease. Will we have to pay for our centuries of avarice and murder? Yes. Must we continue on that path until we are destroyed? I hope not.
AG
P.S. I went looking for more of saint satin stain’s writing. One of his posts went like this:
Then it went on as follows:
Sounds like prophecy to me.
Keep it up, progressives.
Keep supporting our peace laureate Barack Obama and his good cop act.
The chickens are in flight as we speak.
Bet on that as well.
Bullshit.
Ron Paul isn’t fixing shit. I figure his son will try to follow in his footsteps so the best thing he can do is build up his base so they have somewhere to go when he dies. That’s what this is about. He knows he’s not going to win but it was important for him to get his ideas out there in a big way this time.
Regardless, there will be no major shakeup in our politics this election. The monied interests have too much power and they have their claws in both parties. Taibbi has been writing for awhile now how both the Democrats and Republicans are getting their large donations from the same pool of Wall Street corporations.
I think it makes Obama extremely uncomfortable to have to campaign further to his left this time around even it its only rhetoric. I think the description of Obama as a ‘Rockefeller Republican’ is more or less spot on.
Could be. If this is the case then I am just acting as part of his megaphone.
We all do what we can.
AG
Mr. Gilroy
The innocence of the little girl blowing bubbles was very appropriate, & reminded me of this song which illustrates your point.
As always I like the way you argue your position, & have for years.
Although a bit late, may my wishes for a Happy New Year catch up to you.
I still have a wish to listen to your music live whenever you play in La.
This version is basically what I consider an example of what you mean by using a nice happy word like “bubble” to hide the truth of the devastation caused by the purposeful actions that caused it. Magicians call it misdirection, with an “Abracadabra” & a swish of a cape.
http://youtu.be/tTbPS5nUDE0
http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/377041_356281734385683_100000115782342_1535067_184367
862_n.jpg
24 types, eh?
I only have two things to say to you:
1-That’s a perfect example of a large tent. You never know how many people will fit underneath one until you build it. Build it and they will come.
2-You are so last month. Do try to catch up. According to the Gandhian algebra of change:
You’re still way back when they were laughing at Ron Paul.
Booman is a little ahead of you…he’s still trying to ignore Paul.
Meanwhile…pretty soon you’re going to see a real fight. Watch. They failed to laugh him out of the race and it is quite clear that ignoring him while hyping the various also-ran fools that they propped up to distract attention from his fine anti-war, anti-PermaGov platform is not working.
What’s next?
They are going to have to fight him.
UH oh!!!
Ron Paul will eat Romney up, head to head.
Not only that…the only really interesting thing that could come out of this good cop/bad cop farce that we are laughingly calling the 2012 presidential campaign would be Ron Paul pinning Barack Obama in front of the American public on his many deceits and repeated betrayals of so-called “liberal” positions. Oh what fun that would be!!! The debates of the century.
Watch.
We can only hope.
AG
Do you plan on writing it anytime soon despite your illness? I’d like to read it.
Also, I agree with this about Greenwald. I continue reading him, but I often wonder how he would have went about enacting change in the original Progressive Era. He’s only been writing about politics since 2005 — and he’s had numerous disgusting posts in the past (specifically about illegal immigration, where in the post he’s downright dehumanizing) — but it’s like he’s an 18 year old in 2005, and now he’s an “I’m above it all” a mere 3 years later.
Of course there’s gonna be tribalism. It’s not the way I want it, but there are too many enemies with knives ready to gut what little of a safety net we have. And when I’m talking with people who aren’t hardened liberals, I am not going to talk about why Obama has disappointed me. This produces apathy at best, and “throw the bums out and vote like a finicky cat every other election” at worst, giving us George Bush.
Greenwald wants to have it both ways.
He wants to be able to argue in an extremely biased, selective manner, even to willfully misrepresent facts to his readers in order to make his argument appear more compelling; but then he wants to be taken as an objective truth-teller, and can’t tolerate disagreement.
He wants to behave like an advocate in an adversarial system, but (as the overwrought introductions about how terribly he’s treated demonstrate) he denounces any and all adversaries or adversarial positions as not just wrong, but illegitimate.
He wrote an endorsement of Paul and added the sentence, “This is not an endorsement.” Phooey.
Best blogger in the business?
He writes like some old fashioned Stalinist attack dog.
What Gaius said.
Steve M.,
I meant to second your comment above,
“I am coming to loathe Glenn Greenwald. He doesn’t even entertain the notion that I might be making the moral choice to support elected official who will hold the line against the complete evisceration of the Great Society, New Deal, and Progressive Era, and that I may have concluded that even very flawed defenders of the policies of those eras are still managing to prevent a vast amount of suffering in my own country. That’s my priority — keeping this country from turning Dickensian. But Glenn Greenwald doesn’t accept that anyone other than himself and those who agree with him live by6 a moral code.
“Also, Greenwald is a terrible writer, who never uses forty words when he can use two thousand.”
Those are exactly my priorities.
But I think I replied to the wrong comment, or something.
I’ll get the hang of it, sometime.
Because it would completely undermine the point he’s trying to make.
Ron Paul gets support from progressives because he has some strong progressive views. That’s what seems to be lost in all these anti-Greenwald screeds. Paul is speaking to a large segment of people who want us to stop diverting trillions of dollars into military adventures to end the police-state mentality that has taken hold of most of the political establishment, including virtually all the Republicans and nearly half of the Democrats in Congress.
He particularly speaks to a large number of young people in this country. The same demographic that made up much of the OWS protests, who were also dismissed by the political class (“what could they possibly want?”). There is a reason his supporters are die hards who get to the polls rain or shine and don’t switch horses.
Some day, some smart political operative is going to stop obsessing about Ron Paul’s fringe ideas, stop caring who Glen Greenwald might endorse, and decide that it might be a good idea to start using those issues to build a winning campaign of their own.
Let’s hope it’s this year.
Because it would completely undermine the point he’s trying to make.
That’s a shitty reason to be dishonest, but I think you nailed it. This is just how Greenwald operates.
Some day, some smart political operative is going to stop obsessing about Ron Paul’s fringe ideas, stop caring who Glen Greenwald might endorse, and decide that it might be a good idea to start using those issues to build a winning campaign of their own.
You mean like George McGovern? It is a rookie mistake to take one’s own fondest political desires and assume that they also, through some sort of incredibly happy coincidence, just happen to be a terrific, winning campaign platform.
You have an amazing habit of leaping to completely unfounded conclusions, Joe.
So I’ll point out that Barack Obama is president today in large part because Hillary Clinton took the “politically smart” move of voting for the Iraq war while he stood publicly opposed to it. And during the 2008 campaign she waved the threat of violence against foreign nations, while calling Obama irresponsible and naive for saying he would engage in diplomacy. This was considered a winning gambit by the Washington commentariat, most of whom still don’t understand why some unknown upstart was able to beat the overwhelming favorite for the Democratic nomination in 2008.
Today, Elizabeth Warren is a pretty lonely voice among Democrats who has figured out what the OWS demonstrations were all about. But if you think that Democrats are better off obsessing about deficits instead of jobs, or “going big” on a bipartisan agreement to cut Medicare and Medicaid instead of reigning in Wall Street, then please, make your case.
You have an amazing habit of leaping to completely unfounded conclusions, Joe.
Ahem:
Paul is speaking to a large segment of people who want us to stop diverting trillions of dollars into military adventures to end the police-state mentality that has taken hold of most of the political establishment…Some day, some smart political operative is going to stop obsessing about Ron Paul’s fringe ideas, stop caring who Glen Greenwald might endorse, and decide that it might be a good idea to start using those issues to build a winning campaign of their own.
Your words, Jinchi. The “completely unfounded conclusion” I jumped to was to conclude that you wanted a political candidate who ran a campaign like the one you said you wanted. In point of fact, he ran on exactly the message you said would be a winning campaign, and he set a record for the greatest political defeat in American history. He made Alan Keyes look like Al Gore, and he did so by taking the political advice you’re now pushing.
Face it; this is not a pacifist, isolationist country.
So I’ll point out that Barack Obama is president today in large part because Hillary Clinton took the “politically smart” move of voting for the Iraq war while he stood publicly opposed to it. And during the 2008 campaign she waved the threat of violence against foreign nations, while calling Obama irresponsible and naive for saying he would engage in diplomacy.
He also promised to use drones in Pakistan and ramp up the war in Afghanistan and that war against al Qaeda – you know, the very actions you are now calling out in your litany of horribles. You want to cite Barack Obama’s campaign in 2008 as an example of Paulite anti-war, isolationism? Odd, then, that the very actions he is undertaking, that you are complaining about so much, were the centerpiece of his foreign policy message.
Oh, and your paragraph about deficits, OWS, and Wall Street is just completely off-topic, so I’m not going to bother with it. Your comment, and mine, were about foreign policy and military action.
Believe it or not, there is a huge difference between thinking that our country shouldn’t start dropping bombs on, say, Iran, and being a pacifist or an isolationist. By your standards China is a pacifist, isolationist nation.
And here again, you make huge leaps of logic based on your own delusions. Please show me anywhere that I have ever criticized Obama for the war on al Qaeda.
Barack Obama ran on ending the Iraq war (and on not waging “stupid wars”), on engaging in diplomacy first, on ending torture, on closing Guantanamo, on support for the rights of habeas corpus and due process. That’s what you’re calling “Paul anti-war isolationism”. And it is a huge reason that Obama sits in the White House today.
No he doesn’t. He’s got some far-right paleocon views that happen to be of a similar conclusion as some progressive positions. However, that same ideology leads him to different conclusions on other issues. They’re not progressive views. They’re radically far right.
The fact is that Ron Paul gets a significant amount of support from progressives and Democrats because they agree with his statements on civil liberties and foreign policy. He also gets significant support from those conservatives and libertarians who also value those ideas.
I don’t see any point in getting into a semantic argument about whether those views are “left” or whether Paul has gone so far right that he’s come full circle. Those people aren’t supporting him because of his ideological affiliation. They’re supporting him because of the policies he’s advocating.
Ron Paul is a problem for liberals not only because he appeals to those for whom foreign affairs and certain civil liberties issues outweigh all else but also because he stands for a foreign policy outlook variously called anti-interventionism or isolationism that is anathema to internationalist progressives and has been since TR, Wilson, FDR, and LBJ.
Progressives in general have always been divided between global meddlers like Wilson and isolationists like Bryan.
And for the latter Ron Paul has an obvious and strong appeal.
As I wrote in a different comment, I am one of those who favor laws and policies that protect or advance the interests of the ordinary people of America.
That is how I evaluate domestic policy and so I want to protect and grow our social democratic inheritance.
And that is how I evaluate foreign policy and so I want the ordinary people of America to be forced to fight no wars that are not necessary to protect or advance their own interests.
These priorities put me directly at odds with internationalist liberals on issues foreign and domestic.
Matt Yglesias took to calling himself and others of that internationalist stripe “cosmopolitan liberals,” claiming American laws and American policies ought to be based on equal consideration being given to the interests of everyone in the whole world and that a nationalist policy seeking to protect and advance our own interests would be flatly immoral.
In matters affecting foreign affairs this means these people favor interventionist wars that do or would serve no significant American interest but are aimed at serving those of foreigners, be they Israelis, Yugoslavs, Sudanese, Yemenis, South Koreans, Japanese, Ukrainians, or others.
As for trade, this means cosmolibs refuse to protect the jobs and wage levels of American workers and instead side with Wall Street.
They intentionally encourage outsourcing, a flood of imports, and the deindustrialization of America, deliberately sending our jobs overseas, forcing down our wage levels, and undermining the American working class.
And then they denounce efforts of American voters to use American law and American policy to protect American jobs and American workers as immoral, given the poverty of the workers Randian, libertarian, Wall Street trade policies make us compete against, head to head.
And as for immigration they refuse to limit or stop the flow of immigrants that drives down or helps hold down wages, denouncing efforts to restrict or stop immigration as racist and urging that we owe more to impoverished Guatemalans than to the Americans adversely affected by the collapse of American wage levels.
I am not a cosmopolitan liberal and I am not a liberal interventionist.
I am one of those the policies of cosmopolitan and interventionist liberals have hurt and will continue to hurt, at no loss to themselves and to the advantage of the upper classes to which they belong.
Free and “fair” trade makes rich liberals richer while crushing workers and ordinary people.
Open immigration advantages corporations and agribusiness as well as those who always thrive when they do, again to the disadvantage of ordinary Americans.
And fighting wars to make the world safe for democracy, to bring democracy to Iraq, to save China and the European colonies of Southeast Asia from Japanese aggression, to save Stalin from Hitler, to save Tustsis from Hutus (or was it the other way around?), to save Israelis from Arabs, or to save Sarajevans from Serbs means getting the children and grandchildren of ordinary Americans killed in crusades they would never in their lives have volunteered for and squandering their nest eggs in the same useless causes.
It’s a crock.
I am an American worker.
Who stands with me?
But isn’t that kind of a gray line in and of itself?
If military intervention is required in order to continue the flow of cheap oil that our society was built and depends upon, does that fall under the umbrella of ‘advancing the interests of the ordinary people of America’?
And that is how I evaluate foreign policy and so I want the ordinary people of America to be forced to fight no wars that are not necessary to protect or advance their own interests.
And this is different from Henry Kissinger, how?
I don’t understand how anyone on the left can think that “I’m looking out for number 1,” can become an ethical, progressive outlook when applied beyond our borders.
Joe from Lowell,
You surprise me.
The chief difference between an isolationist and a conservative imperialist is that when an isolationist says he won’t fight unless vital interests are at stake he actually means it.
The conservative imperialist is so full of shit he will claim keeping up a steady flow of cheap pistachio nuts is a vital interest.
The Poles fought the Germans because the Germans actually invaded, as did the Russians.
The Finns fought the Russians for the same reason.
The Poles, Russians, and Finns really had vital interests at stake.
They really were forced to fight.
Cap Weinberger once told the Oxford Union there was no place on Earth so remote or insignificant the US did not have vital interests there.
Cap Weinberger, typical conservative interventionist, was full of shit.
The idea that our policy in the Middle East is about cheap oil is true so far as it is only because our policy is fundamentally about Israel.
That is, the most basic commitment of the US in the region is to the last gasp of European colonialism there.
Our policy is about Israel and has made enemies of everybody else there with oil under the ground, turning democracy in the Middle East into a threat to the United States when it would not otherwise be and forcing American policy to seek to maintain the flow from not altogether willing sources.
And if you evaluate it that way our policy in net, starting with the fundamental commitment to Israel, is costing far more than it is worth.
Knock off the interference and the oil will still flow.
Another difference between the isolationist and the conservative imperialist is that the latter will fight to protect and advance US corporate interests in other countries, as the US has historically done in Latin America.
Isolationists do not agree that the overseas interests of American plutocrats and corporations are vital interests of the nation, much less of the ordinary people of America.
Even right wing isolationists like Ron Paul reject military intervention overseas to protect American corporate interests, as do most libertarians.
It always surprises me when people as much as concede to the imperialist right that their claims to justify endless stupid wars by appeal to vital American interests are actually true, as you just did with regard to Kissinger, a man whom Chis Hitchens rightly wanted to see in prison.
Basically, he consistently for years put the electoral interests of Richard Nixon and the Republican Party way, way ahead of those of the US, keeping us fighting in Vietnam year after year.
Oh, as to looking out for number one, I am an ordinary working class American whose interests are regularly sold out to those of the plutocracy, the corporations, the rich, and then by fake and real bleeding hearts who stand to actually gain or at least lose nothing to those of Guatemalans, Mexicans, Malaysians, and Chinese.
NOBODY is looking out for me.
And now you are insulting me because I don’t want the bastards who run this place to get my granddaughters killed to save people in a bad way on the other side of the world.
And, yes, it literally comes to that when Krauthammer demands the US extend its nuclear shield to Israel and Hillary pipes up not to worry, she’ll turn Iran into a giant glass ashtray if they attack Israel.
Guess what.
Hillary on Krauthammer’s urging just let Tel Aviv hide behind Baltimore.
And that’s where my granddaughters are.
Get it?
Sorry, Joe, I feel like Columbo with his “one more thing.”
But as to that “I’m only looking out for number 1” not being a policy a left can support, recall that in Europe the name for that policy is “neutralism.”
Belgium, Luxembourg, Switzerland.
Finland throughout the Cold War.
Sweden through the whole 20th Century, even during the Second World War when all that country’s neighbors were forced into war.
Just a bunch of selfish right wingers?