I like Attorney General Eric Holder and I support the president, but this is a pile of manure:
Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. defended the U.S. right to target and kill American citizens overseas in the war on terror, telling an audience at the Northwestern University law school that when those individuals pose a real threat to this country and cannot be captured unharmed, “we must take steps to stop them.”
But according to the text of his remarks released by the Justice Department, he stressed that it can only be done “in full accordance with the Constitution,” and asserted that a targeted slaying, like that of American-born Anwar al-Awlaki in a U.S. drone attack in Yemen last year, can be ordered only after an “imminent threat” was posed to the United States and the person’s capture was “not feasible.”
“In this hour of danger, we simply cannot afford to wait until deadly plans are carried out,” Holder said. “And we will not.”
People are not complaining that the United States eliminated an imminent threat. They’re complaining that the process for eliminating that imminent threat doesn’t have adequate structural protections for U.S. citizens. They could fix this quite easily by creating some kind of special court to review evidence on an expedited basis. We have a FISA Court that reviews wiretap requests. If we want to target an American citizen abroad, the bare minimum that should be required is that a three-judge panel unanimously approve the action. Otherwise, a future administration could murder an American citizen with no due process, no transparency, no legal review, and no opportunity to either surrender or otherwise answer the charges. That is, in fact, what happened to Anwar al-Awlaki. The consensus is that al-Awlaki was a very bad man who was involved in the Christmas bombing plot and whose capture was impractical. There are, however, some doubters about those facts. And even if the doubters are wrong, the process does little to prevent abuse.
Here’s the process:
American militants like Anwar al-Awlaki are placed on a kill or capture list by a secretive panel of senior government officials, which then informs the president of its decisions . . . There is no public record of the operations or decisions of the panel, which is a subset of the White House’s National Security Council . . . Neither is there any law establishing its existence or setting out the rules by which it is supposed to operate.
I’m sorry, but that simply isn’t good enough. It’s unacceptable. It’s wrong. And fixing it is not that complicated. We don’t have to get indictments in every case. But there has to be some judicial review and some transparency and some accountability.
A somewhat recent poll came out showed a majority of Democrats approve of President Obama’s handling of civil liberties issues, like keeping Gitmo open, drone attacks, etc.
There is no avoiding it- a large group of Democrats are huuuuuuuuuuge hypocrites on national security and civil liberties. If President Bush/Alberto Gonzales did or said the exact same thing things that are being done or said, a ton of Democrats would be up in arms. But since President Obama is on “our team,” then we should all STFU and Rah Rah for Team Democrat.
Even beyond the immorality of it all, it’s politically stupid- someday in the future a Republican will be President again, and s/he will undoubtedly abuse these powers. But, thanks to the precedents set and the groundwork laid by this Democratic president, and the accompanying support on the “left,” there will be no room for any kind of critique or rollback of these fundamentally authoritarian activities.
It is disgusting, and it is yet another reason why despite my professed liberalism I can’t ever “join the team.” F–k your team, and f–k your rah rah hypocrisy.
Come on. Yes, there would be a lot of Democrats up in arms (and there are quite a few Democrats who are up in arms now), but there would be a lot who wouldn’t be, because this is one of the most obvious consequences of authorizing the use of military force against terrorists, which is something a whole lot of Democrats supported at the time. Hell, Clinton wanted to kill bin Ladin with missile strikes during his term, and certainly believed he had the power to do so, years before 9/11 and the AUMF.
UBL was not a US citizen.
But the right to due process isn’t supposed to be limited to US citizens, and I really don’t see any basis for saying, “Well, al Zawahari and bin Ladin were fair game because they weren’t US citizens, but killing al Awlaki was terrible because he was a US citizen.” And it’s not like the US military has ever been particularly shy about killing citizens who decide to wage war on the US.
And your scenario where a future President has a US citizen murdered overseas wuthout any sort of accountability? Well, I don’t really see the citizenship of the victim as the upsetting part.
You’ve just made the argument that it is illegal for the military to shoot at the enemy during a war.
No, he made the argument against killing terror suspects with no due process. I can claim all I want that I’m “waging war” on the US (or any other) government, but that doesn’t make it so, even if I round up some friends to help. Bush’s acceptance of war as the legal and rhetorical framework for responding with 9-11, and his entirely fictional and by definition endless “War On Terror,” is the basis for all of these abuses of civil liberties. (Well, except for that bit about ignoring the Geneva Conventions. But as I recall, international law also isn’t big on targeted assassinations on foreign soil.)
Given how ready the Bush cabal was to label any and all critics of its national security [sic] policies as treasonous, it shouldn’t even be hard for you to see how Holder’s “process” can be abused in the future. Al-Awlaki was not a very sympathetic character – which is precisely why he was ideal for setting this as a precedent with bipartisan support. When President Santorum uses the same precedent to round up abortion providers (“They’re terrorizing the pre-born!”), I hope the people loyally defending Obama and Holder on this one will at least have the simple decency to STFU.
basicly it seems to be the old question, is this a war ir is it a police action. Different circumstances, different rules.
And to be fair its far from the first time anti-terrorism action has been tied up in knots by that dichotomy. See Northern Ireland
“I can claim all I want that I’m “waging war” on the US (or any other) government, but that doesn’t make it so”
Congress authorizing the President to use war powers, on the other hand, does make it so.
Whether you think it was a good idea for them to do that or not.
The AUMF and the state of actual, legal war are legal realities, and your analysis utterly fails to deal with legal reality.
Holy crap, you really have no idea what you’re talking about.
Given how ready the Bush cabal was to label any and all critics of its national security [sic] policies as treasonous, it shouldn’t even be hard for you to see how Holder’s “process” can be abused in the future…When President Santorum uses the same precedent to round up abortion providers
When did Congress authorize the use of war powers against abortion providers? All of these powers come from the legal state of war created by the September 2001 AUMF, which does not discuss domestic political enemies, and does not even discuss terrorist threats in general. It wouldn’t even authorize force against Hamas, Hezbollah, or the Provisional IRA – actual terror groups that carry out bombings.
This isn’t even a question reasonable people can disagree about. You just don’t know what you’re talking about. You don’t understand the actual, objective facts of the matter, and it shows.
No, I’ve made the argument that whether the enemy is a citizen or not is irrelevant to whether it’s illegal for the military to shoot at the enemy during a war.
Are you sure? There are a lot of people who do believe that Barack Obama is not is a U.S. citizen.
Who’s right and who’s wrong?
Damned if you, I or anybody else who is on the outside looking in knows anything.
Hmmmm…
And…we don’t even know if bin Laden is dead.
Not really.
I mean…that whole “burial at sea” thing stunk to high heaven. The fact that almost all of America swallowed that horseshit uncomplainingly is evidence enough of the power of hypnomedia.
So if no one is sure about where his body is, could this all be disinformation being used to camouflage his real whereabouts?
Sitting in an underground room somewhere, full of interrogation drugs and babbling out the names of all of his contacts?
Or…relaxing is a secret aerie enjoying his rewards as the greatest double agent in the history of mankind?
No one really knows…except for those who do know, of course. And they ain’t tellin’ because it would be their mortal ass if they did.
What do we know?
The Most Holy Rumsfeld Tablet tells all.
Plus a prescient corollary from another great prophet:
OH yes!!!
What do we know “for sure” here?
Nothing.
No body?
No evidence.
How convenient.
Please.
AG
P.S. You write:
“…this is a pile of manure…”
“…[it] simply isn’t good enough. It’s unacceptable. It’s wrong.”
You said it.
It’s got your name and address written down next to it on the rapidly growing “just in case” N.D.A.A. file.
Just in case…you might be among the lucky few. The chosen. The examples.
And then what do you have? (Because…trust me…they ain’t gonna rescind that law. It’s part of the system. Been part of the system for quite some time, as you so correctly point out regarding Clinton. More like since Nixon and Kennedy is my guess..
They just legaleezed it.Errrr…ahhh…sorry. I mean legalized it.)What are you or any others who get swept up in some sort of “anti-terr’ist” net going to have?
Respell NDAA, baby.
NADA.
Bet on it.
Shit outta luck.
Abu Ghraib/CIA rendition time.
Bet on it. (At least you might get to meet what’s left of bin Laden in some dank prison.)
And here you are, still running your “Four More Years” thing.
“I like Attorney General Eric Holder and I support the president…”
Be careful what you wish for.
You may get it.
Well, sure.
UBL went into the Witless Protection Program. He’s currently working in Denny’s in Nebraska, along with his new friend Elvis.
If the Weekly World News was still publishing, I’m sure they’d be all over the story.
Believe it or not, l’il Snarki…the possibilities are endless.
Disinformation is now a way of life in the U.S.
Only one thing is certain. However the common wisdom is presented by far the mass media, it’s a lie.
Bet on it.
AG
Arthur, once you grag in Birthers to make a point you have finished jumping what remained of your shark. The fact that some people believe Republican smears meand jack shit, And did you actually read those articles and quotes from the emails? I doubt it here let me educate you
“If body dumped at sea, which I doubt, the touch is very Adolph Eichman like. The Tribe did the same thing with the Nazi’s ashes,” Burton commented in another email.”
See that word, IF? That means the guy was talking out his backside and didn’t know shit about what happened. he was mouthing off in a provate email and SPECULATING.
Those emails are therefore proof of sod all.
I know you want to try and invoke the philosophy of skeptisism to try and make some stpid point about lack of knowlage = OBAMA IS EEEVIILLL VOTE RON PAUL. Buit the fact is if you invoke that WE CANT KNOW, then tthere is an equal chance Obama is actually an angle that has to hide his wings as he is an evil dictator. If we cant know we cant assume that everything is bad, becasue we cant prove otherwise because we can’t know.
You are no David Hume. Sorry.
Oh and Obama The part of the NDAA that allowed him to indefinatly detain citizens of another couuntry granted by the poison pill of the GOP. Sorry and all
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/03/03/1070450/–Obama-just-Vetoed-Indefinite-Military-Detention-i
n-NDAA?via=siderec
I agree that inside the Dem Party support for or against these activities would never be unanimous. So what?
My point is that a majority of Dems, including Barack Obama himself, opposed these very same activities when it was President Bush who was in charge. But now that a Democrat is in charge, the numbers have flipped and a majority of Democrats approve of these very same activities.
We actually have polling numbers on this, you know. This isn’t conjecture. A massive amount of Dems have simply flipped their position on these issues, just because a Democrat is in charge. This has happened, it’s not theoretical.
If that doesn’t represent massive hypocrisy by at least a major segment of the Dem coalition (i.e. enough to flip the Party as a whole from opposing to approving), then I don’t know what does. The Rah Rah Dems (i.e. the people who have flipped on this) are truly disgusting people.
Which “very same” activities?
I really don’t recall much objection to using missile strikes to assassinate al Qaeda leadership before the election, and I certainly don’t remember Obama campaigning against it, though I suppose I could have missed that. I do remember assuming, at the time the AUMF was passed, that using missiles to blow up al Qaeda leaders was definitely on the table, since that has been Clinton’s strategy beforehand, and I certainly didn’t foresee Bush forgoing that, or Congress wanting him to.
Now, like I said, it is possible that I missed a lot of Democratic objections to drone strikes or their moral equivalents during the Bush Years, and I certainly don’t remember polling on it. Regardless, killing members of al Qaeda was always a lot less controversial than torturing them, or holding them at Guantanamo forever even if they didn’t do anything, or invading Iraq for no goddamned reason. If you want to upbraid Democrats for being huge hypocrites about Gitmo, I really can’t argue with you, but being huge hypocrites about assassinating al Qaeda members? I really don’t buy it.
Um, operating Gitmo as some sort of extralegal detention center was very much a source of contention for Democrats…while George W. Bush was running it. President Obama campaigned against it, for crying out loud. So yeah, “you can’t argue” with me on that- ok, so…?
As for drone strikes, the young technology was not yet widely used during the Bush Admin, but it seems like the “moral equivalent,” such as it is, would be wiretapping and detention. And Democrats very much made a big issue about warrantless eavesdropping and detaining American citizens while George W. Bush was in charge. It seems like an absurd argument to imply that warrantless wiretapping and imprisonment of American citizens were problematic for Dems, but the execution of American citizens without investigations, warrants, trials, etc. are not. Please tell me you’re not trying to make that argument.
So let’s review: you concede that Rah Rah Dems are being hypocritical on Gitmo, and you absurdly think that because there was no specific polling on drone strikes back in the day, well gosh almighty the polling on warrantless eavesdropping just has no relevance! Um, how is this any kind of counterargument to my original point?
Again: because of their rank hypocrisy on civil liberties under the guise of “national security,” Rah Rah Dems are completely disgusting horrible people.
You, too, need to get your facts correct.
First, Obama did try to close Gitmo. That’s why those of us who wanted it closed aren’t critical of him – he’s the one who, against overwhelming opposition, spent actual political capital trying to close it.
Second, not only was drone technology widely available during the Bush administration, but the CIA used a drone to blow up a car full of al Qaeda in Yemen in November 2002. The action was utterly uncontroversial, and your imaginary Democratic opposition to the actions was notably absent. I remember wishing he was doing more of that instead of starting a war with Iraq.
So, no, you’ve yet to demonstrate a single case of hypocrisy.
OMFG!
Obama tried. He really tried. So, give him a break!
You rah-rah dems really are disgusting. I’m sorry that the truth offends you. I hope you and your team are proud, HYPOCRITE!
It goes like this: Obama has succeeded in everything he has tried to do, but only when he really wants it. But saying that he “tried” doesn’t cut it. The record, or lack thereof, speaks for itself.
Vote Obama: The Best We Got.(tm)
This is what happens when the stop teaching civics in the public schools.
I’m really not interested in what someone like you thinks about me. Even if you could demonstrate some vague understanding of separation of powers, you’d still be too obnoxious to worry about.
I know it’s fun trying to narrow the argument down to a few points that can be endlessly debated, but there actually are principles at stake here. So let’s try to remain focused on the principles. Again.
The complaint here is that many Dems, Senator Barack Obama included, endlessly objected to President Bush using the “war on terror” to justify authoritarian activities against American citizens and violate human rights of non-Americans. Gitmo, drone strikes, warrantless wiretapping, are all examples of those violations of principles, not the sole and exclusive proof of those principles. Also, a Democrat’s position on one issue regarding civil liberties can be considered relevant when evaluating a Democrat’s position on an extension of that same issue. For example: if you believe that President Obama has the authority to kill an American citizen without due process, then you logically believed that President Bush had the authority to eavesdrop on and imprison American citizens without due process. (If you didn’t believe this, then you are obligated to explain what principles are consistently guiding you and how those principles are in accordance with our country’s principles.)
So when Senator Barack Obama and many other Democrats object to President Bush violating the due process rights of American citizens (e.g. Gitmo detention, warrantless wiretapping), only to have President Barack Obama turn around and violate those very same due process rights of American citizens (e.g. execution by drone strike), that’s massive and obvious hypocrisy by Barack Obama. If these unjustified Presidential powers only seem unjustified to Dems when a Republican is President (as is evidenced by the polling), then that’s massive and obvious hypocrisy by many Dems.
While these Dems don’t want to discuss the principles at play and instead want to debate the details, principles actually do matter. If we are at war, and I can’t believe I have to explain this, then we have to be fighting for something. If we’re not actually fighting for freedom (e.g. individual rights and liberties) but merely “freedom” (e.g. Rah Rah Team USA), and again I can’t believe I have to explain this, then it’s unclear to me why this war is worth fighting.
If President Bush/Alberto Gonzales did or said the exact same thing things that are being done or said, a ton of Democrats would be up in arms.
Why is it that people like you, who are so confident in your charge of hypocrisy, are always forced to phrase your charge using this conditional, imaginary “If…would be” verb tense?
If there actually was this hypocrisy, as opposed to people reacting differently to easily-differentiated circumstances, then why is it that you can’t come up with a single example that you can describe in the simple present/simple past tense? “When Bush did this, Democrats were up in arms, but when Obama does it, they are not.”
Funny how nobody can ever come up with such a sentence. I guess we hypocrites, and President Obama, are just incredibly careful, and manage to constrain ourselves quite effectively in order to avoid the charge.
Or maybe it’s bull. One or the other.
Try this: when Bush was in charge, numerous Democrats, including then-Senator Barack Obama and lawyer Eric Holder, were publicly incensed that the Bush administration used wiretap and other surveillance against terror suspects, including American citizens, without going through the oversight of the FISA court.
Now President Obama isn’t simply eavesdropping on terror suspects without any outside court supervision. He’s murdering them without any outside court supervision. I’ll grant you, that’s not exactly the same – it is, by any measure, far worse. And not only have large numbers of Democrats flipped on the issue, but so has Obama himself.
Being outraged that Bush violated laws that Congress actually passed, does not obligate anyone to be angry that Obama has violated laws that you wish Congress would pass.
You seem to want to take an extremely narrow view of the principles at work here, to the point that it almost seems as if you think no principles are involved here.
Bush violated laws that Congress passed, but that was NOT the only principle that is offended. The violation of due process and the right to privacy was the problem. As for Gitmo, the violation of human rights and the right to justice (via a fair and speedy trial) was the problem. Also too such as, the Unitary Executive theory of law and governance was the primary justification for the Bush Admin, and that was a gross violation of the underlying principle of Separation of Powers.
Do you understand the problem? I don’t think you do. We’re not just talking about the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law as well. Laws in and of themselves are a reflection of principles. Violating these principles (i.e. the spirit of our laws) is a problem even if the Admin is technically kindasorta debatably following the letter of the law.
Do you understand and agree that this is a problem, regardless of which Party is in control? I have my doubts, and that frightens and disappoints me.
If you had stuck with the example of wiretapping, you’d be onto something.
But failing to distinguish between the wiretapping of United States persons in the United States, and the prosecution of a war overseas against enemy forces at large, is a rather remarkable intellectual oversight.
Do you really not understand that those are two easily-distinguishable cases, with very obvious legal, moral, and constitutional difference?
No, you don’t, and that’s the problem.
I didn’t know we were at war with Yemen, the location of al-Awlaki’s murder.
Glad you cleared that up.
We’re at war with al Qaeda, who are in Yemen.
Just like we weren’t at war with Belgium or the Netherlands when we fought the Germans there.
How is it possible that you don’t understand this point, this late in the game, but yet you still conceive of yourself as someone in a position to talk down to anyone?
I think I just answered my own question: it takes a profound degree of ignorance to think that you know what you’re talking about.
Violating the due process and privacy rights of American citizens can take many forms. Violating the human rights of non-citizens can take many forms. I’m not sure why you want to only debate this or that example, because that doesn’t refute the overall violations that have occurred.
By claiming the right to kill Anwar al-Awlaki, an American citizen, without any hearing, trial, independent oversight, etc., President Obama has now claimed the authority to violate the due process rights of American citizens. Don’t even try to pretend this authority won’t be abused by a future Republican President, so…where is President Obama and the Dems taking our country?
Do you not understand that a gross violation of one citizen’s rights is an implied violation against all citizens’ rights? How is it possible that you don’t understand how we demonstrate and guarantee basic rights of citizenship?
“al Qaeda” is everywhere. It’s an ideology. So, we’re at war anywhere where Obama and his yess-men say. Got it, again.
Geov Parrish already provided a good example, but I already mentioned one specific example: Gitmo. These are not “easily-differentiated circumstances,” this is the exact same circumstance.
Here’s your sentence: when Bush used Gitmo as an extralegal facility to detain terror suspects without due process, Democrats were up in arms, but when Obama does it, they are not.
So, you have two examples. And you’re either a disgusting hypocrite or an ignorant fool for pretending these examples don’t exist.
Or of course a disinfo specialist.
OH yes!!!
AG
Obama proposed a bill to close Gotmo and the House democrats regected it en masse. You cant blame Obama for Gitmo as he at least tried to close it. That one is all on the house Democrats.
We didn’t need Congressional action to open Gitmo for illegal detentions, we don’t need it to close it. Yes, it would have been hard because Congressional Dems didn’t support it, but:
A) do you not see the hypocrisy there? Just what the hell were Congressional Dems complaining about in 2005-2008, if they didn’t really care about it?
B) and relatedly, if Commander in Chief of our armed forces President Obama really wanted to stop an illegal and unjustified military activity (which is what he claimed it was), then he could have done it without Congressional approval. At the very least, he could have followed through and called their bluff, which would have demonstrated that this was more than an empty campaign promise.
Besides, this isn’t just about President Obama, as I made clear in my posts over and over and over again. I’m trying to look for the phrase “I blame Obama for all of this” in my original post. Nope, not there, instead my rhetoric is aimed at a group of Dems who opposed a lot of this stuff, one of whom was Senator Barack Obama. My beef is with the Rah Rah Dems who complain when a Republican President does something, but then support it when a Democratic President does the same thing. So, stop arguing with a strawman.
By confirming everyone’s worst most cynical interpretations of politics and governance, Rah Rah Dems are a cancer on the Party. They don’t really oppose doing anything, as long as a person with a ‘D’ next to their name is doing it. That’s disgusting, and it is more than a little disturbing that many other Dems see nothing wrong with this.
Obama had to go to congress becasue congress controls the purse strings. He could not do it on his own by his own authority.
And don’t make it sound like Obama was just pretending to seem like he was following through on a campagn promise. he started moving on shutting it down his second day in office, but got blocked by congressional democrats. Dont imagine the guy has dictatorial powers. Bush seemed to as he basicly did what congress wanted most of the time.
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Gitmo+must+go.-a0202804242
And yeah the congressional Dems are a bunch of hypocritial jackasses. thats one of the reasons they got hammered in 2010.
but when Obama does it, they are not.
Obama is the one who tried to close Gitmo.
That you don’t even manage to acknowledge this inarguable fact, while pretending to care so much about Gitmo, makes your little temper tantrum about my legal standing that much less impressive, and it wasn’t terribly moving to begin with.
And Geov’s example was…well…about par for the course for Geov, unfortunately. It is not hypocritical to distinguish between what may be done while fighting a war overseas, and what may be done in the United States, off the battlefield, to United States persons. If I’m hypocritical for making this distinction, so are the Geneva Conventions and the Constitution.
Not often I agree with you on foreign policy Boo, but you are spot on here. Process IS important, and for the nation’s top law officer to ride roughshod over all due process is disquieting, to say the least. It’s time the Dems stopped using the excuse – the Republicans would be even worse – to justify their rather short sighted machinations…
Here is the problem that I see. If this were a “real” war like WWII or Korea and there were enemies in the battlefield even Americans in “theater” who had defected and actively were engaged in assisting our enemies, this policy would make sense. It would be consistent with the rules of war. No one would argue that a judge in the midst of a war should get involved in making these decisions.
Because this policy relies on the AUMF which has been defined as authorization for military force and has been interpreted so broadly as it applies to terrorism and those who assist it, it is hard to reconcile that military authorization as a “real” war where rules of war apply. And, as defined, the “war” has no foreseeable end point and bears little resemblance to a battlefield as we understand it. Therefore, using a “rules of war” construct just seems a stretch but what should the answer be? Because without this theory and construct, how do we justify killing “terrorist” even in a foreign country with or without some judicial review?
Why are we killing anyone extra-judicially, even in a foreign country? Convenience? Absence of oversight?
Because the alternative is to allow people to retreat to lawless areas or failed states in order to be beyond our reach while they plan and launch attacks on the United States. It’s not unreasonable to argue that’s not sufficient justification because letting those attacks occur has less cost than using military force in these situations, but that really is alternative. And it’s a discussion about what makes for good policy, not over what’s legal.
It’s funny that we have only had only one big successful attack in the US by folks from a haven in a failed state. And that that attack was neither random violence nor unprovoked. And it was very much politics by other means. Maybe we should pay attention to the politics. And a little closer attention to the law enforcement. A thorough honest report analyzing the real failure would have been more helpful than the whitewash we got.
It’s a discussion over what is Constitutional. Sure the AUMF, PATRIOT Act, etc. make it legal but the DOJ has been bobbing and weaving to avoid having a clear Constitutional case go to the Supreme Court.
WAIT a minute, here Tarheel!!!
You’re going to have to change your name to something like “TarheelLibertarian” or “Tarheel4RonPaul” if you keep talking that kind of
nonsensegood sense.Yup.
AG
In spite of the way I spell it in the screen name, dem is lower case.
There was one big, successful attack, but there were also a bunch of smaller or less successful attacks before 9/11, and there have been several failed attempts, and one successful one, since then. I don’t think the argument that al Awlaki wasn’t a legitimate target because he wasn’t very good at the whole terrorism thing makes all that much sense.
As for what’s Constitutional, the use of military force is Constitutional in many circumstances. Given that, I don’t see why using military force, with Congressional authorization, against a stateless criminal who continually tries to murder Americans while hiding out in a lawless part of the world isn’t Constitutional.
Just for clarification, I would note that there were two “successful” events at WTC, the first one inflicting considerable damage and 9 deaths, I believe. But nothing like 9/11 of course.
Who should be putting this process in place? It seems a little odd to begin with to be upset that the Administration isn’t following laws that you want to exist, but don’t. More importantly, any process they dream up and subject themselves to just won’t change the fact that the President has the power to kill people overseas without any real due process–it’ll just mean that the President is choosing not to exercise that power. It would place no constraints on a future President, who could dismantle the process unilaterally.
FISA courts came about because Congress wanted to restrain the Executive Branch, and any judicial review of drone assassinations is going to have to come from Congress as well, because the Executive Branch by definition cannot be a check on executive power. Even there, I don’t know how much good it will do, since it’s not like the FISA process was a rousing success, and you’re recommending literal Star Chamber justice as “due process” for the targets of these drone attacks.
Congress would have to authorize and fund the special court. But the administration can certainly ask them to do that.
The President and Eric Holder are just plain wrong on this issue. They are dancing around the clear words of the Constitution (I guess that’s what constitutional lawyers do). First the PATRIOT Act and the Military Tribunal Act said that the Bill of Rights doesn’t apply to folks who are not US citizens. Now, Holder says that the Bill of Rights doesn’t automatically apply to US citizens.
And after leaving Iraq, killing Osama bin Laden, and beginning to exit Afghanistan, the policy of the US government is still war without end.
I guess Holy Joe is happy. The US now handles human rights just like Israel does.
You are applying as a speechwriter for Noam Chomsky and/or Ron Paul now?
Good on ya, Tarheel.
Good on ya.
AG
Fixing it is relatively easy–except for the politics. Repeal the AUMF. Repeal the PATRIOT Act. Reinstitute posse comitatus. And tell the law enforcement, intelligence, and national security agencies not to guard their turf so aggressively but obey the Constitution. Some of this stuff is just “little boys wanting to break rules” mentality.
We don’t need to repeal the AUMF.
We need to declare victory over al Qaeda and declare the Af-Pak War to be over, and then the 2001 AUMF lapses. Remember, all of these war powers stem from the AUMF, and cite it as the source. The Obama administration quite clearly broke from the Bushies’ citation of inherent executive authority for such actions, and instead seats them explicitly in Congress’s invocation of its war powers.
I think ending the war against al Qaeda is exactly what this administration is aiming to do. Remember Panetta referring to “about 20 guys” at the top of al Qaeda who need to be taken out for the organization to be defeated. Remember Patraeus seconding him, and making a Kerry-esque statement about a defeat for al Qaeda meaning they can’t deal us a strategically-significant blow. Remember Obama’s answer at the press conference when the Fox reporter asked him about “appeasement” – “As the 22 out of 30 senior al Qaeda people who have been taking off the battlefield.”
Unlike the last administration, which talked about the “War on Terror” as a generational, permanent situation, I think this administration has a vision and a plan to actually end the war against al Qaeda, and end the legal state of war. This would end all of the war powers that have been claimed by the executive and authorized by Congress (think 2012 NDAA detention provisions) based on that AUMF.
Well then, declare the war over and deal with the terrorist threat the way it should have been done in the first place.
But there are significant parts (if not all) of the PATRIOT Act and its additions that will still need to be repealed. They are not contingent on the AUMF.
I hope you are right but this move by Holder is practically idiotic and politically tone-deaf.
I agree on the idiotic – both for the long-term consequences and the legal “justification.”
But why do you think this is politically tone-deaf? A solid majority of polled Americans support the policy. So do lawmakers of both parties. Most of the criticism of this is coming from the left and from libertarians, so the chances of political consequences in either Congress or the 2012 election are minimal.
In point of fact, it’s the lack of political consequences for this that make it so dangerous. As with so many of the other Bush-era War on Terror policies Obama has extended, his ratification of those policies – even when they’re not being expanded, as in this case – means for our political and media elites that a bipartisan consensus exists, and such actions are thus by definition no longer controversial. It’s left to people like the ACLU and the Ron Pauls and Glenn Greenwalds of the world to criticize this. I don’t think they’re keeping Obama awake at night.
YOu have to remember that When Obama requested funds for closing Gitmo both parties turned him down flat. And you have to remember that Both parties voted for the war and the dems are now hamstrung by that vote whereas the publicans are embracing it.
I think the real situation is that congress as a whole proadly supports things like indefinate detention and Gitmo, whereas Obama certainly does not support those aspects. You also have to remember Obama line vetoed the part of the NDAA bill that gave thim the power to indefinatly detain people on the 29th of feb, so he certainly does not support that.
However he was always a hawk on Pakistan and when asked a direct question on whether he would violate international borders to strike leaders of Al Queda in the debates he said yes. So its not like Obama hid the fact that he would be doing stuff like drone strikes. And I think the public largely supports those things.
For all that the legal justifactions they are coming out with are BS. But at least they are trying rather than inventingnew catagories which the law does not apply to.
Well then, declare the war over and deal with the terrorist threat the way it should have been done in the first place.
This particular terror threat was substantially different from the run-of-the-mill terror groups we were dealing with before that. The Provisional IRA, the Red Brigades, November 17, or the PFLP could have never conducted the Cole bombing, or pulled off the 9/11 attacks, or the embassy bombings. Al Qaeda has international reach and operational capability above and beyond other terror threats, especially when they were operating in partnership with the sovereign government of Afghanistan.
It is perfectly appropriate to use a military component to knock them back down to the status of an ordinary terror group. That is what winning the war means, and once that is done, then it will be time to lop off the military component and deal with them through standard counter-terrorism methods.
Thank you for saying it, BooMan.
It is sort of ironic that in the film “Minority Report” even the precrime tribunal consisted of three high ranking judges.
Thanks for this. Of course, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
I’d hate to admit what the USA would look like if I were in charge of a Justice Department.
How does it feel to be part of the PL now, Boo? 😉
Be gracious, now.
You want to bring the civilian judiciary into the process of military target identification during a war? That’s really not what they do. If there is a procedural problem in how these targets are chosen, then there needs to be a solution that is internal to the executive branch.
Awlaki wasn’t killed because he was a criminal suspect against whom a sentence was issued, but because he was a military commander fighting with the enemy in a declared war. The identification of such targets has always been part of the war power, and our constitution doesn’t authorize the judiciary to make such decisions.
Fighting with the enemy of whom? Are you making a Black Jack Pershing and Pancho Villa sort of argument?
Fighting with the enemy of whom?
Fighting the enemy against whom Congress declared war in the September 2001 AUMF – al Qaeda.
That action, and the legal state of war it produced, is a reality that needs to be taken into account when we discuss the legal and procedural questions here.
So much of the Obama campaign AND administration boils down to “Just trust me!”
Can someone not get him to realize that not only is that hard for the left, it’s also not a healthy way to run a republic?
You can argue about justification, process, citizenship (and hypocrisy) all day long.
I have yet to see anything remotely close to a reason for targeting al-Awlaki’s 16 year old son, that does not boil down to simple MURDER.
If only there was a branch of government that could make certain acts definitively illegal. They could perhaps propose a law, then put it in place, thereby constraining the behavior of the other branch of government in a manner resembling “checking” or “balancing.”
If civil libertarians don’t like this state of affairs, they could work to change it and to persuade the public to pressure their representatives accordingly. Until that happens, the executive will keep making expansive claims and daring anyone to do anything about it. Fed up? Get Congress to do some Congressing for a change.