Unlike Glenn Greenwald, I didn’t find Tom Friedman’s piece on Syria to be all that illogical. What Friedman is basically saying is that we caused a civil war in Iraq by removing the power structure at the top, but we were also indispensable in stopping the civil war (insofar as it is stopped) because we’re were the only ones with enough power to establish some semblance of order. Then Friedman is transferring that logic over to Syria, where a civil war is already underway. His idea is that we are the only ones who could stop the civil war in Syria.
Now, I’m not willing to stipulate to all Friedman’s facts, but it is possible to be responsible both for starting and ending a civil war. And it’s possible that American troops could play some role in ending a civil war that they didn’t start (see Libya, for an incomplete example). So, logic isn’t my problem with Friedman’s piece.
My problem is with virtually every other aspect of his argument. I’m glad that he says he will never advocate for American involvement in another Arab war ever again, but what I’d rather see is him promise is not to talk out his ass about matters of war and peace ever again.
Start with his formulation that Iraq equals Syria.
That’s because Syria is a lot like Iraq. Indeed, Syria is Iraq’s twin — a multisectarian, minority-ruled dictatorship that was held together by an iron fist under Baathist ideology.
That might sound right to someone who knows a little but not a lot about the Middle East. But it’s totally misleading. Almost nothing about Syria under Assad is the same as Iraq under Saddam Hussein. First of all, Syria is very closely aligned with Russia and Iran. Iraq fought a brutal decade-long war with Iran, and it was closer to France than it was to Russia. Secondly, the Syrian and Iraqi Ba’athist parties split apart in 1966 and have been antagonistic ever since. Third, the minority-majority nature of the two countries are flipped, so that ousting Saddam empowered the Shiities and pleased Iran while upsetting Saudi Arabia, while ousting Assad would have the exact opposite effect.
Our interest in invading Iraq was to create an escape hatch from a deteriorating sanctions regime that left us in a permanent containment mode with eroding international support for our efforts and increasing blowback. At least, that was a defensible interest. Our president doesn’t seem to have thought beyond the “Fuck Saddam. We’re taking him out” level of analysis.
Our interest in intervention in Syria is to break the back of Iran’s power and influence over Lebanon and Israel. It is an interest shared by Turkey, Saudi Arabia, the Gulf States, and Israel. It is an interest not shared by Iran and Russia.
What Iraq and Syria share in common is that they are both multi-demoninational and multiethnic societies where people have co-existed very well under a totalitarian government. In both cases, removing the power structure puts a quick stop to that coexistence, leading to sectarian and ethnic violence.
As human beings and members of the UN Security Council we have to look at humanitarian assistance and work towards peaceful solutions. But we didn’t create the problem in Syria and we’d be very foolish to take responsibility for the outcome there. We have a national interest in the outcome, but there’s no evidence that our presence is indispensable.
These things are relative anyway. Central to Friedman’s argument is that our troop surge in Iraq helped end the civil war in Iraq and gave them a decent chance at a bright future. But just four days ago the Washington Post reported that over 100 people had died in ethnically-targeted terrorist attacks that took place throughout Iraq.
Not to make light of our soldiers’ sacrifice, but they didn’t actually put Iraq back together again. Like I said, I can’t stipulate to Friedman’s facts.
Good thing there aren’t any cities in Syria “the size of Charlotte” that face obliteration under the air and firepower of the Syrian military. Sad trombone.
I can’t believe the R2Pers got so hilariously self-righteous with Libya when they knew darn well that potentially worse civil wars were coming down the pipe in the region that would be completely beyond their power or control.
You intervene militarily in Libya because it’s (relatively) cheap and easy. You don’t in Syria because Syria is fucked up and sectarian and destitute. Save the “stain on our collective conscience” crap for children’s books. The one (only?) thing I gotta hand the Russians is that they own their cynicism openly.
What are you talking about?
A reasonable probability of success has been recognized as an core ethical consideration in just war theory since the time of Thomas Aquinas.
I don’t even understand what you’re supposed to be sneering at. The R2Pers – that is, the people on this planet decent enough to think that national power should be used to avoid human rights catastrophes – are not eager to spend lives on a mission that has a poor chance of success, and you somehow manage to think of that as a stain on their conscience?
If you’re trying to claim some moral high ground with this comment, you failed.
There’s no ethics. No morality. There’s just math.
When the equation was balanced, the math came up the wrong way for Syrians. Probably small comfort for the dead ones that, ahem, Thomas Aquinas’ ethical quandaries have been thoroughly pondered and such conscientious mathematicians are at the helm of the international ship of state. But so it goes.
I guess that’s the difference between R2Pers and folks like you.
We think there is, indeed, ethics. We think there is, indeed, morality. We think these things need to be brought into the equation.
It’s true that the equation came up the wrong way for the Syrians. An intervention was not likely to succeed, and could quite possibly have made things worse. On that we agree.
Where we seem to part ways is in your apparent belief that to without military action for that reason somehow reflects badly on those who would have supported it if there was a good chance of success.
Probably small comfort for the dead ones that, ahem, Thomas Aquinas’ ethical quandaries have been thoroughly pondered and such conscientious mathematicians
Is this supposed to have any meaning at all, or is it just the anti-imperialist version of showing pictures of dead fetuses? Is noting that people are dying in Syria supposed to be some sort of admonition for people who did not want to possibly cause more people to die?
The only thing that you’ve clearly expressed is your certainty of your moral superiority. The reasoning you’ve used to come to that impression isn’t quite so clear.
Ha. “We?”
You do think you’re the hero of the story. Some no-count scrub posting from a computer. “Hilariously self-righteous” must have struck a nerve.
The only heroes are the ones who have actual skin in the game. They’ll make their own way. Turkey, the US, Russia, they all could have dealt with Assad and the Syrian army months (and ten thousand casualties) ago. But there are cities in Syria that have more people than all of Libya put together, and the world learned the hard way what happens when cities are left without provisional government in the midst of sectarian strife. That’s all this is.
I didn’t feel any particular heroism in thinking the Libyan intervention was a smart idea. No national honor or glory, either. Lucky odds, that’s all.
(You still haven’t explained what “ethics” and “morality” exist beyond a rigorous cost/benefit analysis. Do No Harm. Assure a High Probability of Success Before Acting. Math. Math doesn’t care how hard your heart bleeds that there “isn’t more that could be done.”)
You’ve ceased entirely to talk about Syria, American action, international intervention, and events in the region. This has now become entirely about you, your feelings, and arguing on the internet. All you’re talking about now is me, and playing some dumb word game so you can pretend you’ve won something.
I’m not interested in discussing any of those things. I’m interested in world events and American policy.
Have fun talking about feelings. I’m going to go to try to find somebody who wants to talk about Syria.
Math doesn’t care how hard your heart bleeds that there “isn’t more that could be done.”
You’re the only one talking about people’s hearts. Nobody else cares about your psychobabble.
As Matt Taibbi pointed out in No Kidding the Most Incoherent Tom Friedman Column Ever;
??? And that was followed by:
Fortunately, Taibbi decodes the dribble from wtf to its totally nuts essence.
Right, but aside from the silliness about the USA being trusted by Iraqis, those two comments are not logically incompatible. We started the war, and we ended it. I’d quibble about how cleanly we ended it, but that’s not the real problem with Friedman’s piece.
Logic that denies facts isn’t logical. His initial premise that turning Iraq into Switzerland required no more than a trusted, well-armed, external midwife. Ignoring the inappropriateness of using the centuries old, respected profession of midwifery for bombing the shit out of a country to bend it to the will of the west, there is like zero historical evidence that this is how peaceful and well-functioning nations come into being.
Then, as if he’s an astute observer, he offers the by now very tired Iraq war cheerleaders excuse for why Iraq is a disaster: US mission incompetence and lack of docility within Iraqi communities. Completely the millions of people in the US and Europe that pre-invasion easily saw how it would unfold.
He’s a sloppy thinker who never questions our right to do whatever they hell we want, even if it winds up killing a lot of innocent people and making matters worse.
But his basic argument is that Syria is going to have a nasty civil war with lots of ethnic cleansing unless we get involved. And then he says we shouldn’t get involved. My only real difference with him on that is that we can get involved without repeating Iraq, and that it could be a nasty war even if we do try to repeat Iraq. In fact, we could make it much worse, despite Friedman’s unbounded faith in our abilities to overcome initial incompetence.
we would all be a lot smarter if we just read & talked about juan cole, re: middle east stuff.
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Juan Cole has remained silent on the developments in Syria. I read shock and surprise how events are unfolding, an ugly civil war with no end in sight to massacres and war crimes from both sides. The Al Qaeda jihadists hve become a major factor in the rebellion, soon the FSA will have to choose sides as the jihadist have a chant “Christians to Lebanon, Alevis to the coffin.” Hundreds of innocent civilians have died at the hands of the Sunni jihadists and terror car bombings. The death toll of 14,000 Syrians includes 6,000 policemen, security- and armed forces of the Assad regime. Yes, the Obama administration is fully responsible for the outcome of this civil war because it gave support to a non-existent, poorly organized opposition calling themselves Syrian National Council. In the Iraq comparison read: Chalabi. Nevertheless, to attain a greater good of getting rid of an Iranian ally Hillary Clinton gave support to all sorts of foreign power brokers in the Sunni-Shia religious battle of the Greater Middle-East or oil rich nations and partners. There is no democracy or religious freedom in Jordan, Qatar, Libya, Bahrain, Oman, UAE and Saudi Arabia. The Western powers were hoping for the Libyan option, this failed because the opposition fighters were weak and the Syrian government forces were much better equipped. Most likely the Syrian civil war will become a regional war with involvement of Turkey, Kurds, Iraq, Jordan, Israel and Lebanon. Worst case, Aleppo will be obliterated like Grozny. The AQ jihadists from Chechnya must be well aware of the outcome.
See today’s diary – Condi’s Fairy Tale – Neocons and A Democratic Syria.
"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."
Juan Cole has remained silent on the developments in Syria.
Juan Cole has written eight posts about developments in Syria in the last ten days, nine of them lengthy pieces with multiple links.
a non-existent, poorly organized opposition calling themselves Syrian National Council
They look pretty existent to me: http://worldnews.about.com/od/syria/f/Who-Are-The-Syrian-Opposition.htm
Why is it so difficult for American uber-leftists to believe that people in Syria oppose the dictatorship?
Remind us all, if you will, when Ahmed Chalabi turned out protesters by the tens of thousands day after day, like the SNC did.
The Western powers were hoping for the Libyan option, this failed because the opposition fighters were weak and the Syrian government forces were much better equipped.
The Syrian opposition had lasted longer, and made greater gains, without foreign intervention than the Libyan opposition did.
And if western powers are so eager for “the Libyan option,” then where are the bombing sorties? The UN protective mission over Libya began five weeks after the first anti-government protests in that country. By way of comparison, the first such protests in Syria took place eighteen months ago.
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See also my other comment – Syrian Opposition: Just Keep the Money Flowing
Cross-posted from my diary – Condi’s Fairy Tale – Neocons and A Democratic Syria.
"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."
Then where are the bombing sorties?
You’ve got a wonderful little narrative developed for why an international coalition led by the United States intervened militarily in Syria to overthrow the government in April 2011. There’s just one problem…
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"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."
Another difference between Iraq and Syria is that the neocons will not get to pick Assad’s replacement. They will not get to repeat the bad decision they made for Iraq and their worst pick they made for Afghanistan.
We didn’t stop the civil war in Iraq. It ran its course, right under the noses of our tens of thousands of scary midwives, despite their best efforts, and it ended when it ended. To the extent that any American action helped to reduce chaos in Iraq, it was the announcement and conduct of the withdrawal, which helped propel a political solution between the pro- and anti-government forces.
Our interest in intervention in Syria is to break the back of Iran’s power and influence over Lebanon and Israel.
Well, our “vital national interest,” traditionally defined, anyway. Also, our interest there includes preventing al Qaeda from taking advantage of the situation, such as by arming up or establishing bases of operation. The NYT reported on CIA officers who are trying to keep the Saudi and Qatari arms from falling into the hands of al Qaeda operatives instead of Syrian rebels. Good luck with that, fellas.
Central to Friedman’s argument is that our troop surge in Iraq helped end the civil war in Iraq and gave them a decent chance at a bright future. But just four days ago the Washington Post reported that over 100 people had died in ethnically-targeted terrorist attacks that took place throughout Iraq.
A note on this: the attacks Sunday appear to have been carried out by al Qaeda. They are not, themselves, a continuation of the civil war; they are more like the atrocities, such as the bombing of the Golden Mosque, that al Qaeda carried out against Iraqi Shiites in order to provoke that civil war. There hasn’t actually been a return to the ethnic cleansing, intra-Iraqi fighting of 2006 so far.
I’m not sure that we the US have a direct interest in Syria, and I don’t see the US foreign policy team playing it that way. It was a sideshow that erupted from the Arab Spring while they were concentrating on other issues. The US was caught flatfooted by the Arab Spring and especially by Libya and Syria. I think that the analysis that the R2P folks are less eager in Syria than in Libya is because Syria is much more problematic than Libya and in Syria, there are sufficient groups outside the military and government who are still loyal to the government, which was not the case in Libya.
Tom Friedman’s piece is not the most interesting thing about the civil war in Syria. It’s laughable to focus on this instead of the real news from Syria. Assad has apparently abandoned Syrian Kurdistan to Kurdish forces to administer. These forces include a coalition of a PKK-aligned Syrian Kurd movement and a movement aligned with the government or Iraqi Kurdistan. While this frees Assad to move troops elsewhere, it also give Turkey heartburn and raises the possibility that the politics of an independent Kurdistan might overwhelm and regionalize the Syrian civil war like the politics of an independent Kosovo regionalized what had started in Croatia and Bosnia/Herzegovina.
US analysts, mainstream and critical, tend to make the story of any foreign conflict all about the US. I think that the US, likely following Tukey’s lead, is being very cautious in the way it is handling this situation. Yes, everyone looks for the US to say something about Syria. So the US says the obvious, that Assad has lost legitimacy for a large segment of the population. Everyone looks for the US to do something. So the US pushes for a strong sanctions regime, which predictably Russia and China block. Israel claims to be concerned about Syrian chemical weapons. So the US leaks stories that the US CIA is working to find elements of the FSA willing to ensure that they get locked down if there is regime change and no doubt hopes that Assad will behave responsibly if the government retains control of those sites.
To understand what Israel’s concern means, the existing known sites of Syrian chemical weapons would require the IDF to go through Lebanon in order to enter Syria. A year ago that could have snapped Syria back to relying on Assad’s regime. Today, no one knows what would happen besides a massive resistance by Hezbollah and likely a renewal of the Palestinian intifada. It is in US interests not to have to decide what to do in that eventuality.
There are reports that Russian President Putin met with representatives of the political coalition opposing Assad and received assurances that, should they come to power, Russia could retain the lease of it Mediterranean base in Syria.
Iraq went to hell in a handbasket precisely because US troops were not trained to deal with ethnic conflict except by killing people. And that incident happened at the first massacre of Fallujah, when US troops fired on people who were protesting the failure of the local government to get services restarted. Interviews with soldiers in Fallujah by NPR among others got the opinion that they were trained to deal with the enemy not to do police work. I remember that well because the stupidity of the statement made my jaw drop.
The US never should have launched the Iraq War. But once it did, it compounded the problem by not having a plan for restoring services or quickly restoring local governance. De-Baathification was only part of the problem. And the administration in all its glory sent the sons and daughters of prominent Republicans and neo-cons to act as administrators of the various civilian Iraqi agencies. These Baby Elephants were way out of their capabilities and they blew it. And then David Addington had the bright idea that torture was a good thing–something easy to hide from the American people but not from the families of the disappeared. Thus Abu Graib, which violated the laws of war.
The Iraqis, especially Ayatollah Sistani, put Iraq back together in spite of American policy. Maliki’s negotiation of the Status of Forces Agreement with the US on the eve of Bush’s departure from the White House set the framework for withdrawal. And Maliki, it appears, stubbornly resisted all US military, intelligence, and State Department efforts to keep the US hanging around and using Iraq as a base.
Like Brooks, Friedman is not worth wasting bandwidth on.
Recc’ed for the shoutout to Ali Sistani. In addition to putting Iraq back together, he also 1. held the country together by his fingertips for years after the invasion, and 2. forced the Bush administration to accede to real elections.
There are reports that Russian President Putin met with representatives of the political coalition opposing Assad and received assurances that, should they come to power, Russia could retain the lease of it Mediterranean base in Syria.
One might note here that this behavior is not entirely consistent with the theory that the Syrian opposition is a creation of the CIA.
The Syrian opposition is a very diverse group of movements and organizations and not all of them are linked through the coalition that gathered in Istanbul. No doubt there are organizations within the coalition that are allied with the US CIA and others allied with other countries’ clandestine agencies. It is clear that there are some groups with definite ties to Qatar and Saudi Arabia and that the UAE has be acting as a destination for defecting diplomats seeking asylum.
Too often Americans don’t grant other people the intelligence of being able to run their own movements, source their own armaments on the global arms market, or walk away from the government military with the weapons they have been trained on.
Just because the US CIA brought down Mossadegh and Arbenz and supported the takedown of Allende does not mean that it is able to do that at will or that other forces are not.
There’s an oversimplification to seeing the “great game’ in everything that happens.
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Cross-posted from my new diary – Condi’s Fairy Tale – Neocons and A Democratic Syria.
"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."