James Fallows has watched pretty much every debate performance that Mitt Romney and Barack Obama have ever had, and he’s written a very long piece on what we should expect in the three debates this fall. I found the article interesting, but it suffers from the assumption that substance doesn’t matter, not even a little bit. I’m fairly cynical, and my impression of how debates are won is no exception. At its simplest, the challenge is to be more likable without committing any major gaffes. George W. Bush was absolutely demolished by both Al Gore and John Kerry in his debates with them, but I doubt he really lost any net votes. It’s telling that Fallows has to go back to 1980 to find a debate that really mattered. In fact, on the presidential level, only the 1960 JFK/Nixon debate, the 1976 Ford/Carter debate, and the 1980 Carter/Reagan debate are widely believed to have had a major impact on the outcome of an election. Perhaps the second Reagan/Mondale debate helped Reagan right his ship after he seemed demented during the first.
In any case, Fallows is obsessed with body language and being on message, which Romney can carry off fairly well. But he never mentions the bare cupboard Romney will bring to the debates. He doesn’t dwell on the unlikelihood of Romney coming off as more likable than Obama. Romney’s biggest problem is that he has taken two or more sides on almost every issue under the sun. But it doesn’t help that he’s running a campaign based almost entirely on lies. He’s lying about the work requirement for Welfare. He’s lying about Obama apologizing for America. He’s lying about Obama making cuts to Medicare. Almost everything that Romney says is a distortion or an outright lie. So, when he stands up there and takes questions during the debates, he will be trying to explain why he was for abortion rights before he was against them, why he was for a health insurance mandate before he was against it, why he signed an assault weapon ban before he opposed such laws, why he was for letting Detroit go bankrupt before he tried to take credit for its rescue. And so on. And he’ll be asked to explain why his numbers don’t add up, and why he’s been lying about Obama’s record.
It’s not that substance is determinative of how debates are won. But Romney is going to be in a defensive crouch before Obama even opens his mouth. No campaigner in history has entered debate season at such a systemic disadvantage. No previous candidate has ever contradicted themselves so many times or flip-flopped half as much, and no candidate has ever built a weaker edifice based almost entirely on lies.
Romney will be relying entirely on non-substantive measures of success. Ultimately, he will win the debates if he can make people like and trust him. But he’s not likable and people don’t trust people who aren’t consistent and never tell the truth.
Obama’s job is really to avoid alienating people. He might be able to demolish Romney in the same way that Gore and Kerry demolished Bush, but he should resist the temptation. His job is to get out of the way and let Mitt Romney’s inner dick shine through.
Romney’s camp should thoroughly consider the third McCain-Obama debate from ’08.
The first one was a solid Obama win on the heels of TARP and McCain’s “suspended” campaign and “The fundamentals of the economy are strong.” (Though if you read back the transcript, a lot of the answers from both sides were surprisingly vacuous given the severity of the situation.) The townhall one was an epic demolishing for the ages.
The third one? Joe the Plumber! Who remembers anything about the third one except for Joe the Plumber?
Romney’s best chance is to hope the conversation gets fixated on some crazy bullshit that turns everything into a jokey farce. He’s better served if he can convince the country that its politics are ridiculous and embarrassing.
“Vacuous?”
What did you expect? Deep thought? They’re playing to the undecideds. And just who are the undecideds? The ones who cannot make up their crippled little minds which candidate they like better. If it was about issues we wouldn’t even need debates. It’s about who comes off stronger and simultaneously appears more well-balanced.
Too strong?
Too weak?
Juuust right? The Goldilocks mean?
And so it goes.
This year too.
“Vacuous?”
Except for rare moments when he lets himself loose, that’s Obama’s main act. He has a fine and incisive mind, although I question other elements of his personality. If he truly let the American public know what an egghead he is he would immediately be rendered unelectable.
“Vacuous?”
He’s been working on that act for years.
Bet on it.
He’ll flash his rapier mind across Romney’s positions a few times until Romney starts to bleed. Then he’ll lay back. Romney bleeds uptight.The undecideds don’t like uptight.
Obama in a knockout.
Watch.
Then four more years of technologically enforced repression, economic imperialism and PermaGov control clothed in very good suits.
Watch.
Watch.
AG
Romney is going to be in a defensive crouch before Obama even opens his mouth.
Your faith in Mitt Romney’s ability to feel shame is touching.
He’s going to be on the attack from the opening question and he’s never going to let up, never going to stop lying, never going to pause for a second to consider whether he can really get away with what he’s saying. He’s just going to say outrageous things and dare Obama and the moderators to challenge him.
I think he’s beatable because I think he’ll come off as angry and utterly lacking in a positive vision. I also think Obama will counterpunch effectively. But I really don’t see Romney as a guy in a defensive crouch.
Maybe if you said “cornered rat” …
The crouch isn’t a result of shame.
It’s the result of being given an untenable task, over and over again.
Romney will want to follow a simple formula: Dismiss reality and attack.
That’s easy to do when there are eight lunatics standing on stage with you who are even more willing to dismiss reality. It’s helped when the audience is bussed in from wingnutville. But it won’t work on the presidential stage.
He’ll be explaining why he shifted from this position to that position way too much. And those questions are dismissed at a big cost. It’s exponential when you spend 90 minutes blowing off questions.
I think Romney would lose a debate with himself, if Obama never opened his mouth.
Do you really think Candy Crowley is going to call Willard on any of his lies? Who are the other moderators, anyway?
Obama will call him.
Bet on it.
That’s his job.
AG
sigh.
I actually agree with you.
I think I agree with Steve M. Mitt will come off as an angry and arrogant man, incensed by anyone who challenges him, moderator, questioner, or Obama. Remember “corporations are people too, my friend”?
He won’t explain, he’ll just keep attacking. That’s what his whole campaign is based on. Attack, attack, attack, because the substance of what you want to do as president is so heinous you can’t tell anyone what you stand for outside closed doors.
I gotta go with Fallows, Steve, and CabinGirl. Romney will attack and lie and not answer questions directly at all, especially concerning his own positions. His biggest weakness is if Obama can goad him into his natural disposition of being arrogant and dismissive.
Remember 2008, when Sarah Palin was considered by many pundits to have “won” her debate with Biden? Starbursts! True to form, she didn’t use a single fact the whole debate. Granted, she had a huge advantage in that just by showing up and not being a total imbecile she exceeded expectations. (“Palin showed poise and command by speaking in complete sentences throughout the night…”) But her debate “win” also had nothing to do with the election’s outcome.
The only way Romney’s lies and lack of substance matter is if the media call him on it. So far they’ve been better than expected at that (that very low bar, again), but they’ve still been abysmal. Boo, your faith that he’ll be called on his BS by anybody other than Obama himself (“the two candidates sharply disagreed…”) is just as touching as the notion that Romney will feel any shame, ever, about anything. They didn’t put that in his software.
True about the reaction many pundits had to the Biden-Palin debate, but as I recall (and as this CNN story substantiates http://articles.cnn.com/2008-10-03/politics/debate.poll_1_debate-poll-delaware-senator-biden?_s=PM:P
OLITICS) the citizenry by a comfortable margin thought Biden won the debate.
A key part of Biden’s “win” was resisting the temptation to talk down to or to demolish Palin. Biden stayed in control of his own emotions and his reactions to Palin’s more outrageous statements. In effect, he trusted viewers/citizens to have enough good judgment to see through Palin’s veneer.
Obama will likely have to do something similar in his debates with Romney. Although Romney has more—and more recent—debate experience, Obama has an entire lifetime of living with and calibrating to the reactions of white folks to a black man. Which is part of why he was able to destroy John McCain in McCain’s preferred format (“town hall style”) and topic (foreign policy), and still walk away with most viewer-citizens supporting him.
Remember 2008, when Sarah Palin was considered by many pundits to have “won” her debate with Biden?
No. I remember her own spin-doctors using phrases like “covered the spread” and “held her own” and “didn’t embarrass herself.”
It might have helped that the networks were using those approval-button graphs and going directly to studio audiences who had watched the debate.
Substance matters in debates, not because success is judged by who wins the debate on points, but because being strong on substance allows candidates to accomplish the things that Fallows discusses as being purely about appearances and repartee.
Also, the Kerry/Bush debates had a big effect on the race. Bush had been pulling away before those three debates, and by the time the last one was over, it was neck and neck again.
Joe…you’re right on this one..
Kerry did indeed tighten the race after the debates! I remember wincing during several of dubbya’s comments during the debates…then see a narrowing lead in the following days…
I had the feeling that Kerry lost the race with the very last question of the last debate. The first and last questions are the most important. The first one sets the tone (remember “Governor Dukakis, tell us how you would feel if Kitty were raped?”), and the end because it sticks in people’s minds.
The moderator asked Bush and Kerry to say something about their wives. Bush responded with a moving (and probably true) homage to Laura for sticking with him through his struggles with alcohol. IIRC, Kerry didn’t mention Teresa by name, but made some snickering comment about “marrying up” and then told a pointless anecdote about his mother. It was just plain weird, and, who knows, it have sealed his defeat.
Romney’s selection of Ryan ensures that substance, not personality, drives the debates this time…Romney can’t win on personality…he CAN win on substance…take his energy speech today…long on substance, short on personality and entertainment…in reality, Romney is substance, and Obama is personality…hell, as a radical right-winger, when I listen to Obsma speak on TelePrompTer…I like the guy!!!
Would you Progs be open to letting Rysn debate Obama?
Wouldn’t that be priceless?
I’d take that matchup in a heartbeat.
Ryan would do better than Romney, and it would be a vastly more entertaining debate, but Obama would still destroy him on substance, both because math is on Obama’s side and because on non-economic issues Obama would make sure everyone knew just how extreme Ryan’s beliefs and record are. Two words: “Forcible rape.”
Obama’s already debated Ryan’s ass — and the entire Republican Party, for that matter — when he went into the den of lions. Obama has been trying to get Ryan to be the face of the GOP since this moment. He’s succeeded:
Barack Obama would take apart Paul Ryan in a debate.
Just like he took apart the House Republicans when they invited him to their retreat in 2009. Remember that?
This line about the teleprompter is something Republicans tell each other to make themselves feel better. If you actually believe it, you’re falling for your own bullshit.
NO…I remember Ryan kicking Obama’s ass…
Obama’s afraid of Ryan…ya’ll know it…
His job is to get out of the way and let Mitt Romney’s inner dick shine through.
Gotta disagree, Boo. Obama is still a black candidate and running at a disadvantage. It’s his job to demonstrate that Romney is ill equipped to be the leader of the free world.
The trick is doing it without seeming condescending or bullying. Obama’s advantage is that Romney doesn’t get the benefit of low expectations like Bush did in 2000.
Fallows suffers from logorrhea. He thinks he’s God’s gift to the world but in reality he’s just another conceited hustler. Why pay any attention to him at all? Do you really think anybody is going to pay attention to what this dickhead says once they enter the voting booth of turn on their TV? Please. I looked up the word “tendentious” in the dictionary and this is what I found:
A daily double of tendentiousness.
Tendentiousicity.
Whatever.
ZZZZZZzzzzzz…
AG
Why the debates will matter:
Romney: “don’t ask me about abortion or todd akin.”
I can’t wait for Mitt to tell that to the debate moderators.
Great analysis!
I couldn’t agree more.
Let Mitt step on his own d*ck – repeatedly. He’s a terrible speaker, stiff and error-prone. And not at all quick on his feet.
Maybe it’s the platinum foot in his mouth that he was born with.
And I’m not sure there’s enough time for the Republican Party to help him fix that, even if they wanted to.
After all, he’s been like this his whole political career. Being a corporate boss and vulture capitalist, and barking out orders to sycophantic underling’s, is not the same as convincing people to trust you with the country and their lives.
Besides, who do you call to remove a platinum foot from a rich politicans mouth?
A Dentist?
An Oral Surgeon?
A Podiatrist?
A Metallurgist?
A Jeweler?
President Obama needs to stand there, look pretty, stay calm, and smile a lot.
And for God’s sake – DON’T SIGH!
And if his staff makes him wear warm earth-tones, they should all be taken out an shot before he utters a single syllable.
Btw – I’m new commenting here, but I’ve been reading this site for years.
It’s great!
I don’t have a clue why I haven’t felt the need to leave my word-turds here before. It’s not like I’m shy, or anything. At least not on the internet. 🙂
Maybe this one post really struck a nerve with me.
If you folks don’t mind, maybe I’ll stop by once in awhile, and leave a few more.
Speaking just for myself, I hope you will. The more, the merrier.
I disagree somewhat with your earlier comment. I think Obama will have to—at some point—counterpunch and expose Romney for what he is.
* waves to “Victor” *
Hey, it’s about time you strolled over here from “No More Mister Nice Blog”, pal!
Oh, and I’m “Never Ben Better” over there.
You’re gonna love it here in the Frog Pond.
The easy way to win the debates is to decide on what the post debate discussion will be about. Both Gore and Kerry won the immediate polls of viewers. However, both lost the polls as to who won the debate three days later.
In both cases, the Bush camp drove the discussion about what was important in the aftermath of the debates. I don’t remember the specifics with Gore, just remmebr reading articles and going, “Wait a minute, that wasn’t the way it went at all.”
However, the most striking moment in the Bush-Kerry debates was the one where Kerry called out Bush about saying he really didn’t care where OBL was and didn’t think about him much. Bush’s response was “That is an Exaaaggggerashun.”
Later in the same debate the question was asked about the biological component of homosexuality. Bush stumbled through an answer and Kerry gave a good answer asying basically he didn’t know, but he did know that homosexuals are people with feelings and family and mentioned that at least one person in the audience (obviously referring to Cheney) had a child who was homosexual but that did not mean she was loved any the less. Note that in the VP debate just 2 weeks before, Edwards had brought up the love Cheney had for his daughter and Cheney had said he appreciated the comment.
Immediately after the debate, the commentators were all picking up on the OBL comments and pointing out how Kerry was accurate. So when I read my newspaper the next morning I was surprised at the fact that the main subject matter was how horrible Kerry was for bringing family secrets out and using them for political purposes. This was the main item for several days.
The night of the debate, instant polling showed Kerry with an easy win, three days later, Bush was considered to have won the debates.
Good observations. However, in real time, I cringed when Kerry referred to Mary Cheney in his answer to homosexuality. Interjecting the personal against the opposition in a debate is a very difficult act to pull off. Edwards managed to do that but just barely. For Kerry to reprise it, he allowed himself and Edwards to be seen as every bit as staged, craven and cynically exploitative as Bush/Cheney.
the best witnesses for their own prosecution.
I don’t get your reasoning though, as to why BHO shouldn’t make every effort to demolish Mutt when the opportunity arises. Surely you’re not gonna rely on those “liberal” moderators to ask the appropriate followup questions after the Mutt plays dodgeboy, are you? As I see, it’s BHO’s job in this instance not just to Hulk out on setting the record straight, but also to use that as a means of increasing the number of reasons and therefore the level of distrust Mutt owns. How can you like those you distrust? To not exploit as energetically as possible the connection between a lack of integrity and the unlikeability factor it produces, would seem to be counterproductive to me, kinda like a prosecutor or defense attorney failing to impeach the witness when the means is handed to them on the proverbial silver platter.
Anybody that would percieve this as “alienation” as opposed to an effort in pursuit of truth, is likely already in the Mutt’s camp anyway, and BHO’s base would be extremely thrilled to see their guy fighting in a manner they waited a long time to see. And after all, BHO has a duty to paint whatever bright lines of demarcation exist between the two, in terms of integrity as well as policy, because in the final analysis, it’s about who one trusts the most. Who are you gonna trust to preserve SS and Medicare for example — the guy who’s been lying about his oppositions positions on the matter in an effort to hide the deleterious effects of his own.
Furthermore, it’s rather clear that the Mutt intends to ride his “trust me!” train to the election destination, so a derailment and pileup is desirable.
To me this is the single biggest log of his own making that can create that wreck — we have the biggest and most pathological liar to ever take the wouldbe pres stage asking to be “trusted”. I can’t think of anything that shows better the cult-like mindset he’s counting on for success, or that is more important and therefore deserving of, a complete undermining that only BHO can provide in the debates.
The Mutt has no choice but to be a witness for his own prosecution, but that’s no reason why BHO should take the gloves off when his cooperation on that front wanes or is non-existent.
I think BHO should be in a “Hulk Smash!” mindset and in his pursuits, which doesn’t preclude him from smashing him in a civilized manner.
I disagree in part (none / 0)
I’ve long thought and argued the BHO would come close to meeting if not exceeding his numbers last time, so 330 would be acceptable.
What I disagree with, and despite the various studies pro and con on the value of the pres debates in the age of mass communication, is that this years will have a negligible effect.
When was the last time an incumbent or not, ever went into one armed with what BHO will this time? Not only does BHO have his ass cooked on his support for the Ryan Plan, his own tax/econ policies, but also quite the list of personal integrity issues (of the deficit kind) he can weave around he who has done little but try to decieve.
If BHO does his homework as we can surely expect him to, we can expect something akin to a Perry Mason v Boss Hogg match.
How what should be a thorough ass-stomping won’t have more of an effect than has historically been the case when things were less clear cut as factual matters (the efficacy of trickle down, a lengthy record of shameless, easily demonstratable lying, etc, as opposed to the speculative like “lock boxes” or things like the Iraq War in the early days of the occupations, etc, where it’s all a bit speculative as to outcomes) will have to remain a mystery to me, but I suppose it can be revisited after the fact if things unfold in them in the way I expect them to.
Romney’s poll numbers from last night with an approval of 0% among black voters means his party owns that failure to connect. It is stunning that, despite an economy that is particularly rough on black Americans, they haven’t just stuck with Obama they’ve dumped the alternative!
And the Latino vote is double digit ahead for Obama even though his admin has record numbers of deportations.
Obama has the wind at his back for the debates.