Old thread was full. My preliminary take is that the president did fine. Romney got away with saying too much crap without consequence, but as I noted yesterday, the male pundits like it when someone bullies the moderator and otherwise acts aggressively, but most women and many men don’t like that. I thought the president did very well for the first third of the debate when he was talking about taxes. I thought he did a good job of defending ObamaCare. Somewhere around the hour mark, he seemed to lose a little focus on one answer and he never really got back in full stride, although his closing argument was strong. I am going to take a look at the focus groups before I come to any strong conclusions about winners and losers tonight. Romney can certainly feel good that his only major gaffe was blurting out that he loves Big Bird. But if fact-checkers do their job overnight and tomorrow morning, Romney is going to get a lot of negative press coverage to go along with the stuff about how his held his own.
Update [2012-10-4 0:2:54 by BooMan]: I’ve seen some snap polls now that look very good for Romney. I’m not one to put my independent judgment over real-time polls, so it looks like Romney had a clear first-impression win tonight. If you want a little positive spin, a very large majority in these snap polls thought either that Obama was a more attractive candidate or that the debate didn’t change their opinion at all. Romney won a strong plurality of the people who’s opinions were changed, but that was still a minority. The flip side of that is that Romney helped himself relative to the president. He appears to have made a positive impression on a sizable number of people, and so he should expect to get some improvement in the polls from this.
However, the post debate debate will get underway in earnest tonight, and it will cut two ways. First, Obama’s debate performance will be criticized. Second, Romney’s debate performance will be scrutinized. Each candidate will take their share of hits in that process. It’s our job to help in the scrutiny part of that process. Unfortunately, I will be traveling to the White House tomorrow and it will be a very light blogging day for me as a result.
One last happy thought. By doing well tonight, Romney reversed the expectations game for the next debate, which will be a town-hall format. Relating to the common folk has been a constant challenge for Romney and the town hall format will be hard for him. So there’s a little bit of winning by losing element you can console yourself with.
Also, Obama got his wake-up call. So, you know, he’s awake now.
As it all sinks in and I look around at some comments elsewhere, I’ve started wondering if Romney’s big “gaffe” that everybody talks about will be his promise to kill Big Bird. That’s the kind of trivia that usually comes out of these so-called debates.
I gather you didn’t find it boring, Boo? I sure did. Haven’t had such a hard time concentrating since I read that Nicholas Sparks novel.
You just might be right. Even if the press doesn’t pick up on it.
http://mashable.com/2012/10/03/big-bird-mitt-romney/
I am not feeling the heavy “Obama sucked” thing tonight at all. It’s a remarkably uniform consensus though and I guess that drives a lot of good coverage for Romney. But is that like blowing helium into a popped balloon?
Even if Obama didn’t do as well as he could have, one of his signature traits is coming back strong from behind. The counter-puncher. Obama also loves to put the fear of god into the Democratic party from time-to-time. He hasn’t had many opportunities for either during this general election – maybe this is one?
Who knows.
Well the consensus seems to be that Romney won the night – more aggressive and on point. Is that what voters care about? He was a little too amped up for my taste. If Obama’s goal was to speak to the audience, then I think he succeeded and was more approachable in the process. I thought the format allowed for direct questioning from the candidates, and Obama should have done that when Romney was being dishonest. There were several times when a more aggressive approach would have been better, but they appparently chose not to go that way. Snap polls that gave Romney the win also showed the favorable/ unfavorable numbers for both men the same.
I watched the debate with 4 people I’d consider left leaning and one who leans conservative, and we all thought that it was, on the whole, pretty boring shit.
Agree. If This was my first introduction to the candidates I would have turned it off after 5 minutes or fallen asleep.
I watched it with two pretty disengaged young college students. One knows more than most kids just because he lives with me, but he really doesn’t know anything about tax codes and Medicare and block grants and vouchers and so on.
They found Romney to be incomprehensible and dickish. And they gradually lost interest and just started their social networking.
And they gradually lost interest and just started their social networking.
I sincerely hope they did this on your lawn.
no, on comfy chairs. Two of them. One for each.
I had a witty comment with which to respond to this, but on SportsCenter the anchor just literally yelled ‘GET OFF MY LAWN’ and my laughter kicked my comment out of my brain.
I’m looking forward to what Mitt’s HANDLERS are going to walk back tomorrow. I’ve never seen a candidate who is so tightly managed.
Since Mitt didn’t warn his audience that the fact checkers were a liberal conspiracy some of their missives might light up the radar screens tomorrow.
I largely agree with you Booman. Also Romney had these crazy Michelle Bachman eyes that will NOT look well with repetition. Everyone thought that McCain won the Debates last time that night but as they woke up and picked them apart people soured on his performance. People just want to rag on Obama I suppose. Story of his life.
I think Obama did fine. Romney was uncomfortable to anyone with any idea of body language. He will probably be feeling smug about himself tonight though.
I wish I had anything else to watch except for CNN coverage, but they’re running it as though Romney ran away with the whole thing hands down. Responses from the Obama camp are pretty lame, too.
My sense. Romney wrote his own rules. Might not go down well with some people.
Obama took everything in stride. No “angry black man” clips – likely the Hannity stunt was to pin him down on this. But Obama’s performance was long-game and workmanlike. And Presidential. By being more circumspect, he came off more Presidential than the flailing Romney who was jettisoning every controversial position he had staked out for the past six months.
The last debate is the one to watch. And Biden/Ryan.
Unfortunately for Romney there is fact checking. Do not think this debate will haunt him. Freedom of choice in schools for autistic children means vouchers that are only enough to help the people already in private schools.
No idea about foreign profits not being taxed? Better read the tax code Spitt. Your a liar.
I meant “do not think this debate will NOT haunt Romney. Truth is nothing to Romney and thats reason enough to vote for the President.
Given that debates are largely a battleground for undecided voters, who by definition are unable to inform themselves about anything of importance, the fact-checking isn’t likely to have that much of an impact with them.
The perception of who had the stronger performance is important, maybe enough to outweigh the facts.
It scares the shit out of me that elections come down to 5% or so of people that are so unengaged they could be undecided at this point.
Also, too, I’ve never seen anyone lie like Romney and get away with it.
Why are you scared of the 5% of undecideds? You should be scared of the 45% who will enthusiastically get out to vote for a man who is the embodiment of the “I’ve got mine, screw you” mentality.
My prediction was right. Romney hurled a tsunami of lies that couldn’t help but wash over everything in front of them.
Is he being called on it?
Hope so. He certainly did enough of it.
His closing statement was one long lie. two minutes of vote for me and ponies for everyone
“You’re entitled to a plane and a house?”
Was I the only one who heard that as a dog whistle?
I believe that was supposed to be the “zinger”
How much air time did Mitt end up getting vs Obama? Sure seemed like Mitt grabbed the mic and never let up.
MSNBC said that President Obama actually had more time overall than Romney. But they also said that when it came to the end of a topic, Jim Lehrer was more likely to let Romney keep going and to cut the President off.
I thought the overall time was pretty close to equal. I thought Romney was able to stay focused because of the narrowness of his perceived reality while the President was often verbose because of the complexity of his.
So Mitt wants Big Bird to get a minimum wage job at Chic-fil-A? Oh the
humanityavianity!Josh Marshall’s take seem right.
TPM Editor’s Blog
My Quick Read
OK, I’m just going to point out here (because that’s the kind of swell guy I am) that this went down exactly how I predicted. Which is to say, Romney won the first debate, but in the end he will still lose. Just to remind you of my brilliance–second only to Booman–here’s what I said a month ago:
“I expect Romney to do disconcertingly well in the first debate. The topics will be given in advance. Romney will be uber-prepared for them. He will have some pretty good, totally-thought-out-in advance zingers. It is common in the first debate for the incumbent to be somewhat surprised by the aggressiveness of the challenger – think Reagan-Mondale in 1984, or Bush-Kerry in 2004. Debates are not Obama’s strength, and I expect it to show. The media will be quite eager to tell a “Romney comeback?” story after a few weeks of Obama being ahead, and I predict they will pronounce Romney the winner.
But somewhere along the line, Romney will make a gaffe that exposes exactly what a dork he really is. Something like the $10,000 bet. Probably this will happen in the town hall debate. His inauthenticity will not wear well when answering questions from real voters.”
Can I get a Bet On It?
You know “Bet On It” is a registered trademark of The Arthur Gilroy Corporation. But what the hell.
Bet On It!
If the subsequent days include heavy blogging about your experience at the White House, then it is not unfortunate at all!
my trip tomorrow is totally boring. My trip ten days from now will be totally cool.
I have apparently missed your itinerary – what are you doing, and why is this the case?
I don’t really want to talk about it. But tomorrow I am just going to arrange it so I can take some family members there later. I’m not strategizing or anything.
The President had low interest and low energy, clearly, which is never a good thing no matter what your job is. Even if you’re a Starbucks barista. He looked like he just wanted to be able to take his wife out to dinner.
So while it wasn’t a performance Obama’s likely proud of, Romney spent 90 minutes lying (as usual) and acting like a stereotypical charlatan consultant. Who does he convince to switch votes?
Shrug and move on. The contours of the race aren’t gonna change a bit.
Good take here
I tried to live-blog this thing, but just didn’t have the energy. So here is my strongest impression of the debate overall: Mitt Romney wants the audience to believe that he and Barack Obama disagree profoundly on fundamental philosophy, but disagree only very marginally about policy.
Over and over again, Mitt Romney would attack the President on general principles, then the President would say, in so many words, “well, the implications of that view are” and start listing policy implications, and Romney would retort: no, I don’t believe any of that, in fact that stuff you say I oppose is stuff I agree with, and that stuff you say I support is stuff I absolutely will not do.
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/millman/the-first-presidential-debate-a-choice-or-an-echo/
that’s the $64,000 question.
>>Who does he convince to switch votes?
what portion of voters are really still undecided and switchable? I don’t think it’s large and I also think it includes a good number of people who hate all politicians and didn’t watch the debate. And some of the undecideds are lefties who don’t like Obama much and if they switch it will be to the Greens not to Willard.
If you’re going to the White House can you ask someone to ask Obama why he didn’t attack Romney tonight? I can get picking your fights but there were so many lost opportunities tonight!
I thought they both did okay. Blah, but okay. Certainly not an exciting debate.
Romney probably won this inconsequential debate. So he should pat himself on the back.
Some around here are upset with Obama’s lack of excitement. Yeah. But he’s the president and he is WINNING this thing. OTOH Romney’s a dick, everyone knows it, and Romney will hang himself soon enough without any help so why should he get his hands dirty.
I wonder what they Righties are enraged about from this debate. Right now they’re gloating in victory BUT Romney seemed to abandon some of his positions in this debate and there are probably some in his crazy 27% base who have got to be feeling some bruises right about now. But who? The racists are probably furious that Romney was too courteous to the (N-word) because they’re all pumped up on (N-word) hate right now thanks to the last 24 hours in the wingnut-o-sphere.
Calling the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act their derisive term “Obamacare” over and over pleased his base. Show some respect Romney you scum. Obama gave him the opening by saying he liked it. Wingnuts were probably wanking every time Romney said it. He was saying the n-word by disrespecting our President.
Yes, but by doing that Obama neutralized it. Obama certainly wasn’t looking like he had anything to be ashamed of.
I’m surprised anybody gives any weight to the snap polls. They’re pretty much self-selected respondents with no sampling techniques applied. The media will try to promote that Romney won, but there were no winners. It was bore-bore all around. Certainly not the breakthrough the yapping class said Willard needed, and there will be at least some blowback over the blatant lies Willard emitted. If the game was to make Romney seem more likable, he lost. Obama didn’t seem especially appealing either, but he didn’t need to.
Anyway, I’d bet this will turn out to be one of the lowest-rated “debates” ever if they look at how many tuned out.
On the PBS thing-
Bert and Ernie have been my pals since before I could walk. The others are good too, but I related to them best. And I kinda like shows sponsored by Letters and Numbers instead of by consumer products we have to buy to keep up with the Jones’. I knew the alphabet long before even going to pre-school thanks to Sesame Street. And the Latino kids I grew up with entered school speaking English well, though it was not spoken well at home, thanks to the kid shows on PBS. Mister Rogers cheered me up and made me feel special even though I didn’t always fit in with the other kids. And he was there for me with his puppets and his songs every day.
Other than Frontline and Nova I don’t watch much PBS as an adult and I don’t have kids but every kid deserves what I got out of it. I’d be more likely to vote for a member of Congress (where this debate really belongs) who ran on the pledge that they won’t stop fighting until PBS has 100 times the miniscule amount we spend on them now. It’s unacceptable to me that they have to go to corporations begging for money as it is and that should stop.
Mitt Romney said he’d kill PBS funding even though he loves Big Bird. He couldn’t (as President) ever do this but this will totally excite The Stupids among his base. They hate that socialist propaganda based in reality. Fuck them. And Fuck Mitt Romney for even touching this issue.
Yes, but Romney did say he likes Big Bird. Unfortunately Big Bird has to go, it’s just that America can’t afford him. According to your hypothesis, he should have said he hates fucking socialist Big Bird and he can’t wait to get him off the air.
Yes, the youngsters got the message that Romney wants to fire Big Bird. Which is exactly right.
http://www.examiner.com/article/firing-big-bird-how-twitter-creates-its-own-election-agenda
Christ, somebody didn’t get much sleep last night.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/10/04/1139875/-Romney-fires-Big-Bird-Sing-a-Long
What Romney needed to attract new voters is likability and specifics and he failed in both those. Obama had three good zingers (not tellings us how you’ll do things because it’s too good was the last one, also the one about Donald Trump and small business, don’t recall the third); he also trapped Mitt into taking lots of credit for Romneycare which should drive his base crazy. Romney tried to bait Obama, but Obama didn’t take any of it – I think that was good. gave lots of specifics. Finally Obama said at least twice, maybe more “I think Gov Romney and I agree about that” – also something to drive Romney’s base wild.
I think the third was saying he was running from the budget proposed by his pseudo-human running mate. A budget plan he supported until tonight evidently.
The way I saw it, Obama had the only decent zinger of the night when he said Romney’s big bold idea on taxes is “never mind.”
The talking heads say what they say and it’s all meaningless. Snap poles may have some validity but, ultimately, I think Romney did himself no favors. The guy looked pale with dark shadows. He gave his signature smarmy smirk several times and looked still early on.
Obama’s performance was flaw-free and that’s all he wanted.
“never mind” was great, and great delivery. yes, Romney looked wild-eyed some of the time, Obama was really getting to him. I thought – well I hoped – he was going to snap. Didn’t he at on point start quibbling over speaking time – “let me talk” in a whiney way. All that doesn’t help him. The group I watched with was upset that Obama didn’t go after the 716 billion, for one. But that was evidently to bait Obam (hence repeated many times)a and he wisely passed on it, and there’s Bill Clinton to pick it up. = speaking of which, I loved how Obama mentioned “the math” then corrected himself to “arithmetic” and also how he mentioned Abraham Lincoln founding the National Academy of Sciences.
If Obama puts his mind to it he will rattle Romney and reveal the spoiled rich kid still inside. I agree with that. It started better then it ended with the nevermind quote. Yes he did get Romney flustered at first I agree.
“Also, Obama got his wake-up call. So, you know, he’s awake now.”
I assume you know something we don’t know. Care to share?
Strangely, I thought Obama’s performance was inconsistent, but I thought he was worse at the beginning of the debate and gained more confidence as it went on. On Facebook, I called it a draw, but I can see how it can come off as a narrow win for Romney, depending on how much the people/the media focuses on Romney’s rolling over the moderator constantly.
The big problem for Romney is that the second debate’s going to be on foreign policy, where Romney’s going to look ridiculous trying to say that the President who presided over the killing of Osama bin Laden is too weak and apologizes for America. If the third debate’s a town hall, I expect Romney to suck in his interactions with the little people. People may think it’s awesome to verbally bull rush a well-heeled journalist, but it’s different when you do it to a regular person asking a question.
And the thing is, for Romney to win, he has to end up leading Obama by something like five points to make up for Obama’s overperformance in the electoral college. Even if this turns out to be a narrow win for him in the public eye, I don’t think it’s going to have that much of an impact. And, of course, this is probably going to be his strongest debate.
Focusing on the Arab and Muslim worlds and Israel, Obama’s foreign policy record is terrible. His human rights record is certainly nothing to write home about, though not as brazenly bad as GWB’s or Bill Clinton’s. However, Romney will make a complete fool of himself in those areas while Obama will probably convince most of the American public that knows little or nothing.
Agreed completely on their relative abilities to interact with “normal” Americans.
Missed the debate as the broadcast started at 3am European time and I didn’t feel compelled to set the alarm. I don’t think I could have endured 90 minutes of a debate where Willard was acting. I did see part of a broadcast by CNN afterwards. I turned that off when the acteurs in the studio lauded Romney as expections were low. CNN declared President Obama‘s statement of the $5 trillion deficit as FALSE and the lack of Romney for not telling how he would compensate the tax cuts as INCOMPLETE. Just about tells the story of Willard’s life on the national political stage.
Seems like Willard could get away with murder on the first election debate night, so I turned the TV off and went back to sleep.
At least Turkey is providing some fireworks by a retaliation bombing in Syria killing their soldiers and nationals. Coming days Erdoğan will seek parliamentary approval for an invasion with UN and NATO blessings. Next debate on foreign policy could provide some explosive news headlines in the Middle-East.
My diary – Hillary Clinton Is Tired, US Foreign Policy ‘Out of Touch’
I heard some in the car, watched a few minutes on TV after I got home, then got fed up and watched a movie on Egyptian TV – way better entertainment than watching two politicians try to out-bullshit each other.
Thought Romney came off stronger in the part I watched. I’m not an Obama fan (I may vote for Rosanne Barr if she’s on the ballot here), but that did not make me happy.
So I just watched CNN’s rerun of post-debate coverage and they had a room-full of “Undecided Voters.” It amazes me that these people managed to dress themselves and get there without getting hit by a bus. They are so f-ing STOOOPID that just listening to them yack about whatever they think they just saw makes my head hurt. These are the folks who operated the dials that made that graph on the screen throughout the debate. When they open their mouths what comes out is like static and noise and that sound of the ocean you hear when you put a seashell to your ear. Why does anyone listen to these people about anything at all? If these these are the people politicians care so much about and allow to shape policy, we are DOOMED as a nation. Talk about lowest common denominator…
Everyone else. You’re screwed.
In other words, he’s not really cutting taxes, he’s just going to shuffle money around.
Great idea, but didn’t we solve those problems 2 years ago? Those things are already offered in the marketplace because Obamacare requires it.
Actually, you do. That’s why they didn’t happen before Obamacare was passed.
That first quote is incredibly insulting and condescending. What Willard is saying is that people over 60 of course don’t give a shit about what happens to their kids or grandchildren, so they don’t have to concern their little selves about social policy. Obama missed his opportunity here, but I hope they pound the insult in the rest of the campaign.
Booman, I just realized what else President Obama failed to do in the debate: he failed to take your suggestion to tie Romney to the word “republican.” In fact, I’m pretty sure he didn’t even utter the word once.
I don’t think the debates is the place to do that. You’re trying to attract some Republican voters, it’s not appropriate to point out what a POS the party they and all their ancestors have always supported is.
Surrogates from now till election day would be better.
Consensus, consensus, consensus.
Blah, blah, blah.
He won, she won, they won.
More blah, blah, blah.
I got yer “consensus,” right here!!!
The fix is still in.
Obama gets four more years, but not a majority in the Senate. And the media get a “competitive” fight.
Read this. (Emphases mine.)
C’mon…
Are you political junkies seriously debating the “issues” here? Are you actually considering which of these two professional serial liars was most truthful? Please. It is a stone-cold guarantee that these two fighters (or at the very least their managers, trainers and promoters) had a secret set of negotiations out front that in boxng terms would look something like this.
In point of fact, the rules that are set up probably more resemble World Wrestling Federation matches than pro boxing. Elaborate choreographies are likely in place for all three rounds of the debate action.
Like dat.
Grow the fuck up.
W.E.B DuBois knew what was up over 50 years ago.
Bet on it.
You been…and continue to be…had.
From the left, the right, the front and the back.
As the execrable 1990 Texas gubernatorial candidate Clayton Williams so famously said during his campaign:
I’ll betcha alla you leftinesses were up in arms about that shit, right? Justifiably so. But here y’all are 22 years laterm following his advice to the letter. Enjoying the hell out of the process, too.
Deep.
Wake the fuck up.
AG
booman:
That was agonizing to see Obama not throw a punch.
May I humbly suggest that you humbly suggest to David Axelrod the following retort to Romney’s “picking losers” line?
“With all due respect, do give me credit for picking one winner: Detroit. As President I couldn’t abandon millions of workers in the Midwest. I had to step up and make a decision in a crisis. (looking at Romney) Your decision, governor, would have been to, quote, “Let Detroit go bankrupt.” Because, after all, in your career as a leveraged buyout specialist you never suffered if one of the firms you acquired went bankrupt. In fact, you made off like a bandit, whether it was letting companies fail or betting against America with your companies in China. (looking to camera) I hope that all you voters out in the Midwest remember that.”
I mean, weren’t they ready with something like that?
It was strange, but I thought Obama was beating Romney in the first fifteen minutes of the debate, simply because the Etch-a-Sketching was so transparent, and I thought that Obama was neutering Romeny with all the conciliation. But then Romney showed a lot of energy.
Obama’s best spell of the debate was the Medicare response. The most disturbing was the Social Security comment.
He had 2-3 open shots that he did not take. He had 2-3 takes that he did not shot. That needs fixing.
Romney has become emboldened by lies. Obama needs to call the lies. The 700 Billion, the job creation – he left those lying. The 47%, Bain – left unshot.
This puts OBAMA in the underdog position. If he can pull a debate out in which he is the one calling the shots, he will gain a lot of momentum back.
He should have started every comment with: Where are the details, Mitt?
And SHORT ANSWERS, BARACK!! SHORT ANSWERS!
Advantage: Romney
Is my memory correct: Romney always said “my plan” “I want” and never referred to the Ryan plan.
Obama, at least sometimes, said “we”.
This is my impression and I would hate to have to listen again to confirm or alter it.