Joe Biden spent a third of the night eviscerating Romney and Ryan and a third of the night laughing at their lies and stupidity.
I’m a Democrat. I’m a Mid-Atlantic guy. I love Joe Biden.
I loved the debate. It was so satisfying to see the Republicans get taken on in pure Mid-Atlantic style. No respect where it isn’t earned. Open scoffing at nonsense. In my opinion, Biden was not only masterful, but he represented me and my values perfectly. I especially loved his extreme aggressiveness on supporting getting out of Iraq and Afghanistan and not starting wars in Iran and Syria.
I thought he kicked ass. But I honestly have no idea how his disrespect went over with the undecided voters. Romney was richly rewarded for aggressiveness. Will Biden get the same benefit?
Will Biden get the same benefit?
Probably not.
But when Republicans can only cite that Biden interrupted Ryan 68 times and talk about how mean he was, you know they are feeling a bit swamped at the moment.
Romney/Ryan’s momentum is OVER now. Mark my words. Over.
I think so. Biden came in there to do one thing, and one thing only: rally the troops. He did what he needed to do. End of story. Romney’s surge is almost entirely due to renewed Republican enthusiasm.
Seeing their action figure mauled by a pit-bull probably didn’t do wonders for Republican enthusiasm.
Seeing Ryan Intellectually dismantle blabbering Joe Biden will certainly inspire the base, as will polls showing Ryan won the debate (though in a much less dominant fashion than Romney)…which means Ryan did his job impressing undecideds, while not overshadowing the top of the ticket.
Mmmmm… the sweet sweet taste of spin.
Except that snap polls of undecideds gave the debate to Biden: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57531059/poll-biden-takes-debate-over-ryan-uncommitted-voters-sa
y/
Oopsy daisy. Keep spinning though; maybe people here will forget that a week and a half ago you didn’t believe any polls.
What planet are you on? Do you really think you can change minds here with alternate reality crap like Lyin’ Ryan?
Spammy nonsense like this comment should normally get a donut. But I’ll leave a 2 so that your delusions remain visible to the world.
I’ll just agree with the vice president that the only reasonable reaction to this kind of stupid and obvious lying spin is mockery. Just go ahead and mentally replay all the clips of Biden laughing at the silly child he was debating to get a feeling for how seriously I take you.
Totally agree!!!
That’s underestimating what he did. What Biden did was present Democrats’ principles and agenda in their entirety; he missed nothing.
Add to that the bonus that he actually made the case for ending wars — and not starting them — for the first time in about forty years.
Agree that Biden made solid points, but voters who are considering B.O. (Biden Obama) to end the war, etc, are wondering why they’re not over, wondering why the Patriot Act was expanded, not reduced, and why the anti War / civil lib side of the democrats was totally ditched after using them to win 2008. I know a few voters who held their nose in 2008 because they were tired of the NeoConn B.S. going on all over, and horrified with the gargantuan loophole against privacy / civil libs that was the Patriot Act. They are now politically homeless.
(Held their noses = voted for Obama on the anti war thing despite having severe reservations on other issues…)
Re: “one thing”.
No, he did lots:
Should play well with undecided voters because he was aggressive without being mean and came off as likeable – a quality that Mitt and Paul lack.
I’m waiting to see the verdict from women. CNN so far is saying Ryan came out ahead there, and as with last week, I can’t see how that’s possible. But CNN snap polling also appears to be way out of step with other organizations, from what I can tell.
I call BS on their snap polling. I watched the debate on CNN for a reason: I wanted to watch that stupid line. It would surge before Ryan even spoke, and stayed there even with his Medicare bullshit. The only time it dropped was when he dodged on taxes.
Oh, also, the poll surged for Biden on the abortion issue.
Gallup showed Romney won by even a larger margin than the CNN snap poll…
Sorry, Ryan just looked more Presidential.
Ryan looked like a twerpy fratboy who’s not even remotely ready for the prime-time.
Ryan looked like Eddie Haskell. Sounded like him, too.
Eddie Haskell! Perfect!
You’re actually funny now, Sam. Ryan looked like a little boy taken to school. He had nothing but BS.
The “undecided voters” operating those dials are brain-dead morons. Watch the interviews with them later. Stooopid. They always are. We do a disservice to the political process for using them in this way. That process is great for testing lower-brain reaction to visuals (commercials, timing of a sitcom, whatever.) But when you apply it to politics, you need to find the world’s dumbest, most ignorant people. They should not be influencing political discourse.
Stupid Sexy Ryan effect?
Ryan is a man’s idea of what a handsome man looks like. Not a woman’s.
Give it twenty-four hours — that’s when the responses from women tend to crystallize.
I think Undecideds put more weight on how others are reacting and just go with whoever looks like the winner, for the most part – if they vote at all. This is why rallying the troops and maintaining momentum is so important. When they see the D’s or the R’s around them looking demoralized, they go they other way. But they’re “undecided” because they’re uncomfortable making the “wrong” decision and regretting it.
That’s my theory about Undecideds anyway, from the ones I’ve known.
An interesting theory, I think you have something there.
Validity reference Asch Conformity Experiments.
Cool! I never understood the Bandwagon effect, being more of a loner, but it is real. I wonder if some people are more likely to dissent when group conformity is high than when it is low, sort of an anti-conformity response.
That question would be more in the area of personality psychology than social psychology. Contrarians for no reason other than not going along with a group probably exist. But iirc Asch’s experiments didn’t detect any. Those that didn’t conform to the group were the only subjects that didn’t reject the correct answer. Sort of like the kid in the Emperor’s New Clothes and that tiny segment of the US population that screamed hogwash after hearing GWB’s “case for war.”
Your personal observations were validated sixty years ago by Solomon Asch’s conformity experiments.”
It confirmed my sense that Biden would make a great president (and that if Ryan is ever president we will be in trouble).
This was masterful — even inspiring. Certainly a jolt of confidence when needed.
Joe Biden may be the most grounded politician in my lifetime. I know what he means even if if he says it wrong (and he said everything right tonight). He gets his basic facts right, he gets the broad issues, and he believes in the goal. Obama picked the right guy.
If the American public doesn’t see the difference, then maybe we don’t deserve these guys.
I really hate salesmen. They truly will say anything.
I watched the debate in the bar with a pretty liberal crowd. I haven’t read or heard any commentary yet (just reading your as I post this), so this is my “unfiltered” reaction.
My emotional reaction: YEAH!!!! Biden is awesome, Ryan is a douche.
My more reasoned reaction (aka “thoughts”): Biden did what he needed to do. This debate was not about convincing the undecideds – the undecideds will not be swayed by anything the VP candidates say. This debate was about convincing the Democrats not to panic. Joe did that. And although I would not venture to predict what the coverage will be, it seems to me that the media was primed to write one of two stories: “Biden stems the bleeding” or “Democrats in full retreat.” Even if the debate is seen as a draw, I don’t see how they write story #2.
So it seems that article I posted in a previous thread from Dave Weigel on the GOP (and some of us) underestimating JOe Biden as a “gaffe-machine” if you go back an look at Biden’s past debates, you see that on the debate stage Biden is darn near perfection.
I liked that he let no BS go unchallenged…and he did it in a way that encouraged the watcher to go check. This is going to kill the RR campaign.
Now if only we could be so confident the President will Bring It next Tuesday…..
Wasn’t possible for him to challenge all the BS because Ryan was spewing too much of it. But Biden effective pushed back on much of it.
Ryan looked more Presidential, and clearly has a better grasp of the issues facing our country. Biden’s buffoonish antics bore no semblance to Romney’s eloquent assertiveness.
Also, Romney/Ryan are clearly more capable of bipartisanship than this radical left-wing regime…Romney’s lead with independents will continue to widen after this debate.
BTW…CNN poll has 48 percent saying Ryan won, 44 percent saying Biden won.
2 down, 2 to go!
Were we watching the same debate ?
Have you never seen an experienced professor take down a pretentious sophomore ?
CNN poll…Ryan more likable, 53 to 43…Ryan “understands problems of people like me, 51 to 44 (so much for Biden’s 47 percent strategy!)
Always make me feel like checking to see I still have my wallet after we’ve had these little chats.
The IRS will take care of your wallet – tax burden.
To get true feeling where country is headed … it’s the INEQUALITY STUPID.
Troll
Do not feed.
I’m reacting only to what I’ve read plus a few clips of the debate.
First, no Democrat in the world will be anything but energized by Biden.
Second, the wingnut sites are bitching about how Biden was mean and so forth and seem to be clinging to the notion that perhaps they can get the media to Gore Biden like the Gored Gore in 2000.
Third, yep the media is trying to call it a tie. If you remember in 2008 the TV pundits though McCain won (yes, McCain – if you have any doubts how in the tank the financially-secure Washington pundit class is just consider that fact) so OF COURSE they would love for this to be yet another meaningless tie of a debate.
The worst is of course Wolf “Israel Ueber Alles” Blitzer, who called it a tie. If he called it a tie they know it was so bad that they can’t spin it for Ryan.
Alas, what is unknown is if any of Biden’s key points will actually stick in the media. I wonder if Biden can stand in for Obama in the next debate?
CNN polling consistently goes to Ryan on all the specific issues, like likability, qualified to be president, etc. John King let slip at the first Presidential debate that their viewer polls skew “a few points” toward Republicans, so that may be an issue too. I doubt we hear any such admission today.
BEAT. DOWN.
I’ll be interested to see if the people who were playing the “women don’t respond to aggression” card when trying to explain the President’s half-hearted effort will be consistent and be turned off by Biden ripping Ryan apart. Lol. He was as attacking as anybody I’ve ever seen. For me, it was great. It’s like there’s a whole country at stake and stuff.
Not sure what to make of Raddatz. At first, she was awesome, but then she started using right-wing frames on domestic policy questions, and then she was awesome again when she teamed up with Biden to obliterate Ryan’s tax dodging, but then she closed with three of the worst, gooey, most asinine questions I can imagine. We had a real rollercoaster relationship.
Those last questions, starting with the Catholic/abortion thing, were awful. Unfortunately, that was about the point when I got home and started watching. After the post-debate spin sessions die down, I’ll have to go back and catch the full debate.
It was not just aggression. In the case of Romney, he became a completely different person with a whole new set of proposals. His aggression did not come across as genuine–he was fast talking, sweaty and rambling.
When Biden interrupted, it was because Ryan was lying-and just going on and on saying nothing at all.
Clearly, Ryan carried the debate prep notebooks around memorizing the talking points they contained but there was no substance behind them.
Hey, Barack. Hope you were taking notes.
Ryan looked more Presidential, and clearly has a better grasp of the issues facing our country.
To quote the Vice President:
Hahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah.
You just summed up Biden’s entire intellectual argument…that’s why he lost the debate!
Given that Biden’s style is very different from Obama’s, and that they are effective in different ways, what’s the takeaway from tonight for Obama? How does he apply what Biden’s done to Round 2 and 3 with Romney?
Being on offense is good. That’s pretty much the only necessary takeaway. Most debaters wouldn’t use their closing arguments to talk about how they “haven’t been a perfect president.” The president either phoned it in or he chose to fight with one hand tied behind his back.
He’s obviously proud of his time in office, so…be proud. He obviously adamant about Romney’s dodgy character and even dodgier plans for the middle class, so…be adamant. The president has often complained about not being able to get a suitable, fair, honest hearing from the American people on the important issues of the day, they’re clearly watching right now, so no point in leaving anything in the tank.
Interesting – thanks BJ.
Oh look. Sam/Nick went poof. Buh bye.
To quote a famous movie (sort of)…
Y’all can’t handle the truth!
So, I’ve considered the matter carefully for many years, and I finally came to the conclusion that mustard goes better than ketchup on a hamburger. I know this probably seems weird, but it just brings out the flavor of the meat better. What do other people think?
Try ketchup, mustard and relish all together at the same time…the three condiments bring out each others’ favors, along with the meat!
I would say skip the ketchup if you have a tomato. I’m not a huge fan of ketchup because I think it is much too sweet.
Have you ever tried adding just a bit of horseradish to a burger or hotdog? Delicious.
Ooooh. Horseradish sounds awesome. Horseradish+mayo+mustard makes a great pizza sauce with ham as a topping. Something to consider.
Horseradish is THE BOMB!
BIPARTISANSHIP!!
Exactly…today, we solve the condiment issue…followed shortly by all societal ills…it could happen…
All y’all suck eggs.
No Mustard. No Ketchup
just onions, lettuce, cheese, tomatoes, jalapenos and bacon.
Lots of bacon.
I like lots of mustard and just a little Ketchup. But when I was a kid I hated mustard. Oh and onions too. Love ’em now. Hated ’em as a kid.
LMFAO!!
See, you can argue with bitter enemies and still have fun!
Shoo, Troll.
We can handle truth just fine. I can’t speak for all of us but today I am really sick of you. So go howl in your echo chamber, Nick.
Oh right, it’s Sam now that Nick wore out his welcome.
no it’s Liberty for All. he may have had one too many this evening seeing how badly Ryan did. I think he drinks then comes on our site to pick fights
So Sam is ALSO LibertyForAll?
yes, and I think he had a sock puppet with a long name last week, don’t recall the name
No drinks tonight, Errol…if I didn’t have a meeting tomorrow, however, I would definitely be celebrating Ryan’s win with a few…or maybe 6! 8 is my limit.
I was totally satisfied. Biden said everything that needed to be said in the way it needed to be said.
The only thing I think he missed, and it’s almost a quibble: make the point that Romney/Ryan have the same Bush retreads that gave us the invasion of Iraq. Biden was good with the “loose talk” refrain, and even better with pinning them down on whether they want to send more troops — just make it a little more explicit: they’ll start a war with Iran, either through aggression or stupidity.
I was stunned that Ryan tried to do the car crash thing, but someone on the other thread reminded me that Palin already tried that trick; I hadn’t remembered that.
Yes, and it completely backfired on Palin – they thought Biden would lose his focus, but instead he became very emotional and talked about being a single parent and how he understood difficulties of raising children as a single parent. It backfired because at that time few voters outside Delaware knew that part of Biden’s personal history. I’m amazed they didn’t learn from their mistake last time and tried it again in this debate. But maybe they didn’t understand how effect Biden’s response was last time
But the “loose talk” talk missed the mark with viewer watching…Ryan was very disciplined in his responses.
Yeah, he’s very good at memorizing bullshit talking points.
Have any of you gone back and read the transcript?
Truly a Ryan butt kicking, especially on Medicare…
Biden’s only argument…”use your common sense”…
Wondering how the undecideds will react to Ryan’s only attacking, not proposing anything constructive. even the question about his faith and abortion turned into a long rambling attack on Obama. In the closing, while attacking Obama, said he and Romney wouldn’t blame anyone else for their weaknesses. This kind of projection is a Rove strategy, but brought out the mechanicalness of Ryan’s response imo. like a windup toy, ask a question and he goes on an anti Obama rant.
Yes, “honest” was priceless. What was it Newt said was one word to describe his character – “humility”? I guess complete absence of self knowledge is a prerequisite for teapothood
I think I’m like everyone here. Obama demoralized me, particularly with ceding Social Security. Biden was like a fantasy of what I would have said to every one of Romney/Ryan’s points. He missed nothing in his rebuttals. Easily the best debate performance I’ve ever seen — and that’s not because of low expectations; I thought he was underrated both as a speaker and a debater. Add to sharpness the warmth of his persona, his ripe age and his masculinity. He’s one of those rare politicians who is not just recognizably human — rare enough — but likeable.
It’s not going to be a surprise if the polls don’t just return to the pre presidential debates but add an extra point or two for good measure.
Biden did the job he set out to do tonight and Ann R’s kiddie’s are ‘just kicking sand in the sandbox’ tonight.
Game on!
Very effective appeals to the tv viewers on the most important issue of the campaign: Medicare.
What?! His only appeal was, “use your common sense, folks”, and “these guys have been against it from the beginning”…
Ryan wiped the floor with him on Medicare…
You’re a fucking asshole. I won’t even bother rebutting your bullshit because your head’s stuck so far up your ass, you’re seeing starbursts and rainbows.
Your faux-nerd intellectual got his ass handed to him, and this is the best you can come up with to stop yourself from bursting out into tears?
Pathetic.
“ass handed to him”?
Maybe according to blowhard rabid partisans like Ed Schultz and Chris Matthews, but not according to a poll of registered voters.
So how come these “rabid partisans” didn’t say the same about Obama’s debate? They’re only partisan for Biden but not Obama? How very strange — but since this is all in your own mind, maybe par for the course.
And there was no poll of registered voters.
Like he wiped the floor on the subject at AARP? Voucherization. Call it “Christmas” if you want, it’s voucherization. Here’s a quick quiz, troll: what verbage was Ryan trying to hide behind? What was his term for it? Beats me. I’ll bet you don’t remember.
Wait, now I remember: it’s “preferred choice”, right? Yeah, wiped the floor.
I thought “these guys have been against it from the beginning” was a good argument that is long overdue. A federal election is always a choice between the party that enacted Social Security and Medicare as guaranteed benefit programs, and the party that doesn’t dare to openly propose eliminating them, so it proposes to sabotage them instead. Good on Joe to point out the cognitive dissonance it takes to like SS and Medicare and vote Republican.
It’s “long overdue” because many Democrats aren’t willing to defend it. As Obama showed, he is ambivalent about it. Why else give Romney/Ryan cover by giving Romney his seal of approval in the debate? I hope Obama can be pushed back in the right direction by a performance like Biden’s.
If you listen carefully to Biden’s answer about raising the retirement age (of Medicare, I think), you’ll find that he didn’t answer the question. I’m suspecting that both Obama and Biden have decided that raising the age is going to happen.
His only appeal was, “use your common sense, folks”
And that was the best single line of the night. No fancy explanations. No wonky statistics. Just recognize the smell of bullshit when it’s waved under your nose.
Biden’s line might have been simple, but it encouraged people to go with their gut and to know when they’re being lied to.
Works for me.
I’m almost happy the trolls are out. Gives me the opportunity to relive the debate.
“Preferred choice”. “Loopholes”.
To be fair to Ryan, I thought he played a weak hand well. Very poised, very personable (the “it’s Irish” line was winning). But voucherization of Medicare, privatizaton of Social Security, a gigantic tax cut for the rich you can’t even pretend to pay for, more troops abroad and more wars are a weak hand to play.
Biggest issue facing long-term financial solvency for this country is rising health care costs combined with an aging population…Ryan’s plan introduces competition to health care…it’s the only solution.
Where’s the Progressive solution…single-payer with low-quality rationed care…Greek-style bankruptcy? At least Ryan has the balls to put a plan out there…where’s Obama’s plan?
Um, Obama already passed much of his plan. In spite of the pile of unmoving bricks known as the Republican Party. What is it they Ryan did, exactly, except keep voting No?
Ryan introduces competition to health care? Really? Blue Cross, Humana, Aetna, and many dozens of others, to say nothing of the frantically advertising hospitals, would be shocked to learn they’re not competing. Guess somebody forgot to wind you up this century.
It’s “preferred choice”, silly!
Obama’s plan is now law. Look it up. It is slowly starting to be implemented. Get over it.
Where’s Obama’s plan? I think it’s called “Medicare”.
Knowing Ryan’s plan, I don’t think we really need to know Obama’s anyone. This reminds of 2005, when Bush kept begging the Democrats for a Social Security privatization proposal to cover his ass. I liked Nancy Pelosi’s summation to the weak-kneed members of her caucus: “How about nothing? Does nothing work for you?”.
Thanks for correctly framing the issue for us, troll: voucherization vs. Medicare.
Actually, the quote was, “How about ‘never’? Does ‘never’ work for you?”.
Ryan has hoisted himself, and Romney, by his own loophole, so to speak.
booman:
Probably too late, but please tell Obama and Axelrod to script a ready retort on saving Detroit. Obama could have dropped it in in about three or four places in last week’s debate, like the “heart is where your money is” line, or the “picking losers” taunt).
Something involving Detroit, that segues into Bain, getting rich on companies that go bankrupt, Chinese sweatshops, the Cayman islands, betting against America….You get the idea. I mean, come on.
And tell him to keep his hands off my Social Security, back off and say what Biden said several times: the Republicans want to privatize it.
Love it! I just (finally) saw that movie a few days ago.
Perfect, I want to bake him one myself but with more filling.