I think it’s important that all U.S. citizens are afforded their constitutional rights, even when they are accused of committing a mass casualty attack. And it’s important that people understand what their rights are. But let’s not get overwrought about Dzhokhar Tsarnaev’s alleged mistreatment. If it’s true that he repeatedly asked for a lawyer and was ignored, then he can use that in his defense at trial. Anything he said prior to getting his Miranda rights read to him wasn’t going to be admissible anyway.
This man has supposedly confessed to setting off a bomb that along with the bomb set by his brother killed three people and injured 264 more. He was shot in the throat and barely able to speak at all, using pen and paper instead. Despite reassuring comments by public officials, it was not possible to know whether there was an ongoing threat to public safety, and that is precisely what the questioning of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev was intended to determine.
While it is highly unusual to deny or delay a suspect’s request for counsel, it is also highly unusual to question a suspect without reading them their Miranda rights. The reason is the same in both cases. It is rarely the case that the police want to purposively ruin the evidence for trial.
The bigger sin, in my opinion, was to broadcast this man’s inadmissible confession to the world, and therefore to the jury pool. They could have reassured the public without being needlessly prejudicial.
I’m not sure this will go to trial. It’s quite possible that a guilty plea can be obtained in exchange for dropping the death penalty. If it does go to trial, the initial denial of counsel and pre-Miranda questioning won’t have much impact at all, and will mainly benefit the defendant. The challenge will be to find a jury that hasn’t already heard the defendant’s confession.
So did they break the law or not? If so, is prosecution required? I suppose they’d invoke an “imminent danger” defense, which would prevail.
I still don’t get why they’d taint their own case by skipping the warning. To prevent him from demanding a lawyer? I wonder if the defendant knew that his confession would be inadmissible, and chose to make it before being warned? That seems pretty sophisticated.
It’s not a law that has a personal consequence like you are thinking. It’s an exclusionary rule. Basically, if the police doesn’t follow the rules then whatever evidence (confession) would not be admissible in court, it’s not a prohibitory rule.
There is one reason they would taint their own case and that is because they don’t want it to come to trial.
I have no doubt that the brothers are guilty, but I have a lot of doubt hat that’s all there is to it, and if it came to trial a lot of stuff would probably come up that the FBI and the CIA don’t want to talk about. Not that they would anyway, but they don’t even want the evidence to come up.
Just my opinion.
None of this is going to jeopardize their case.
Does not anyone remember…he already confessed that he was the bomber to the man they car jacked. Dzhokhar will spend the rest of his life in a super max prison if the
feds make a deal.
That is evidence that gets tested in court. Not just accepted prima facie. The court process is the right. The ability to confront accusers is the right. The ability to mount a defense is a right. And so is a trial by jury to test the evidence. And the process is a public process that validates that justice is being done.
Samuel Adams of Massaschusetts would have wanted the same thing for the folks who tarred and feathered British revenue agents. There is a reason that the anti-federalist held out for the promise of a bill of rights in the Constitution. Britain was engaged in a counter-terrorism suppression after attacks on its officials and ignored the niceties of British common law.
Four of the five suspects in the Central Park Jogger confessed to the crime. Just saying.
Most suspects are ignorant of the fact that the police can tell you 100% lies and will to get you to confess since that makes their job much easier.
Ah, the Wire right? I don’t get HBO, but I’ve read David Simon before and I was a big fan of Homicide.
The only thing you ever should do in police custody even if you didn’t do it (ESPECIALLY if you didn’t do it!) is ask for a lawyer then shut up until they get you one.
Under intensive police questioning, during a custodial interrogation, they confessed.
Not quite the same thing as saying it to someone you’re holding at gunpoint.
I just hope it comes to trial, and a fair trial.
It is not a crime to question a suspect without advising of their right against self-incrimination. It just means you can’t use their words to incriminate them.
It is only a crime to deny access to a lawyer after they have been charged with a crime, not before.
The presentment of the suspect fell outside of the 48 hour window, but he was in surgery and recovering from surgery for most of that time, so I don’t exactly see it as the big deal it’s being made out to be.
In any case, once a decision is made to not Mirandize, it’s makes sense not to honor requests for a lawyer. You already know that what you are doing is not going to be admissible in court. The whole point is to keep lawyers out of it.
I also believe the “48 hour window” has never been actually defined by the court. I think someone said that they thought that was the outside of the window but it usually lasts a lot shorter than that. It’s basically only supposed to be to find out if there are active threats in progress or soon to be in progress.
Sure. But, ordinarily you don’t have to wait for someone to be stabilized and undergo surgery. And, normally, the suspect can respond to questions without having to write down his or her answers. There are some extenuating circumstances that impacted the timing.
I’d also add that when we are dealing with possible al-Qaeda or al-Qaeda-inspired attacks, there are often more than one cell and more than one target, so public safety might require that answers to questions are run down or leads are followed before we can determine that the coast is clear.
This wasn’t an interrogation about a bank robbery. It was interrogation with a barely communicative man whose motivation was pretty much the same as the 9/11 attackers.
I agree, I don’t think anyone can count those hours in surgery and unconscious
You really think it’s possible these guys were part of a network of terrorist cells?
I don’t but that’s really besides the point. We still don’t know for sure and definitely didn’t in the hours after his capture. In addition, the 2 brothers could have done more themselves, which as it turns out they were are their way to NYC to do.
you mean “which
as it turns outallegedly they were are their way to NYC to do.”sure, that distinction still doesn’t really matter in this particular discussion
We have much more solid evidence that they were on their way to NYC to plant more bombs than we do to support the claim that Tsarnaev asked for a lawyer and was denied one, but I can’t help but notice that you aren’t insisting on “allegedly” when people make that claim.
Well joe, that’s because I believe in the rights of the accused.
What does pretending not to know something you know on a blog comment thread have to do with the civil rights of the accused?
What does accepting an shaky claim without evidence have to do with the civil rights of the accused?
what does arguing with you accomplish?
i mean, other than giving myself a headache.
By the way, are you EVER going to retract your bullshit about craft beer, now that the BEST PRESIDENT EVER is on the bandwagon?
Or is the WH a bunch of elitists like me as well?
Jesus, you are still pissy about the fact that craft beer is not as popular as shlock beer, and trying to take it out on me?
Get.
A.
Life.
As I recall, you’re the one who started THAT particular fight.
Just like you started this one. Neither of us likes the other, so why do you even bother commenting on my comments? You’ll notice, I almost never comment on yours, no matter how frequently I disagree with them
I suggest you adopt the same policy.
Started it, and stopped a year ago. You might have noticed that I don’t comment on things you wrote in 2011.
Why are you still talking about it?
I comment on your comments because I think your ideas, or facts, or logic, are wrong. It really has nothing to do with liking you.
well, I feel the same way about your comments, but I avoid them ON PURPOSE because I know it’s like banging my head on a wall.
Treat mine the same way. Seriously, it’ll do you good.
And enjoy a craft beer while you’re at it.
For you, nothing.
Clearly.
You’re never right, and yet you never learn anything.
I’ll be damned if I can figure out why you’ve decided to make me your quest. It never seems to work.
Hey fucko,
you’re the one who decided to piggyback on my original comment. I avoid yor crap like the plague because I know it leads to fights. So what you’re doing here is trying to start a flame war.
Go fuck yourself. In the dick. With a picklefork.
I think it’s possible that they were nudged in the direction of terrorism by a foreign intelligence agency or organization, but the only thing that matters is that our investigators had no idea when they began questioning him.
I think another issue is the constant hammering from Fox and the likes of Lindsey Graham that the mere act of reading Miranda rights equals turning the country over to al Qaeda, with the implication/statement that Tsarnaev should be tortured–I mean, enhancedly interrogated.
I understand a judge intervened and read DT his Miranda-Rights. If the worry was the imminent threat to the US, why was the confession leaked to the outside world? Taint the selection of a jury?
I’m filled with joy the Obama administration does not uphold the US Constitution and succumbs to the likes of Graham and McCain.
Will Obama follow both senators and intervene in Syria?
Judy Clarke, a San Diego lawyer who has won life sentences instead of the death penalty for several high-profile clients, has joined the DT defense team.
It’s unclear to me that you have a constitutional right not to have your constitutional rights denied resulting in evidence against you being inadmissible in court.
If he was charged and then denied a lawyer, then that could be the basis for a defense. Other than that, I don’t even think there is any issue. If the police want to gather inadmissible evidence, they can do that. It could possibly result in civil penalties under certain circumstances, but not these circumstances.
As I said elsewhere, I don’t think the presentment issue is salient due to the condition of the suspect in that 48 hour window.
I’m filled with joy the Obama administration does not uphold the US Constitution and succumbs to the likes of Graham and McCain.
The public safety exception is Constitutional. It has been repeatedly upheld in court.
Graham and McCain are criticizing the Obama administration for treating him as a criminal suspect instead of putting him into military custody.
Other than your two central claims being factually incorrect, that’s a great comment.
Rupert Murdoch is working hard to taint the jury…
And then reports about law enforcement visits to the the older Tsarnaev’s wife and her family. And the media is now going after their mother, who is in Russia and the Russian have not seen fit to detain. All of the information that the media invents is more likely to taint the jury than an illegally gained confession.
The more serious issue about the questioning was the way that the FBI manipulated the timing of his medication, ostensibly to validate his clarity of mind.
Most Americans have a hard time wrapping their heads around the inevitability that terror attacks on soft targets on our shores are not going away. On a day when 3 lives were lost in Boston, 65 were lost to a bomber’s madness in Iraq. All the babble from the Right that Obama hasn’t kept us safe misses the point. The barn door was opened even prior to 9/11, we just didn’t know it.
But now Justice has in its hands a terrorist from our shores who brings a spiderweb of evidence, connections and emotion. Sadly, this case will be important for another reason. It will lay prescedent. There will be more attacks. Bush led us into a reaction where torture was deployed because he saw imminent threat. We believe we’re not ok with that.
So this time round, inclusive of the imminent threat, Justice is methodically putting the puzzle together, and whether I agree with each step or not, the fascinating part is watching the pieces of our democracy framework come into play.
Anything he said prior to getting his Miranda rights read to him wasn’t going to be admissible anyway.
That’s not true. The “exception” in the “Public Safety Exception” is that the testimony/evidence can be admissible at trial, when it is usually excluded.
Now, the claim that he asked for a lawyer and was ignored – if true – is a different matter. If he asked for a lawyer and was ignored, and then questioned further, those statements could well be excluded. There is not Public Safety Exception to the right to counsel.
Now, is the charge true? After watching Greenwald poop the bed on Bradley Manning (not denied a television, not subject to sensory deprivation, not subject to extended isolation, had conversations with other inmates in his unit), I’m inclined to take his claims with a big grain of salt. But we’ll see. If Tsarnaev repeatedly wrote “Lawyer,” “I want a lawyer,” – remember all of his testimony was in the form of written notes – then his counsel will be able to get those notes during a pre-trial conference, and establish the facts definitively.
Not quite:
The admissibility of evidence under the expanded public safety exception has not been tested in court, but the precedent would preclude his confession. This is especially so if he asserted his right to an attorney on his own and was ignored.
Your characterization of Manning’s treatment in detention is so cherry-picked in terms of detail and duration as to suggest that you actually know full-well what his conditions were, or that you’re getting your information from dishonest sources. For starters, the letter signed by 295 members of the legal academic community protesting the conditions of his detention is here: http://balkin.blogspot.com/2011/03/statement-on-private-mannings-detention.html. Rolling Stone recently published a full-length article of his case here: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-trials-of-bradley-manning-20130314
While I don’t expect your opinion to change, I don’t want other readers to be misinformed.
if you look up the word “dishonest” in the dictionary, they have a picture of Joe from Lowell.
I loom way too large in your consciousness, brendan.
You’ve dedicated your sig line to me, and now you’re doing things like this.
Does that seem like a reasonable way to behave to you?
If you didn’t comment for two days, I wouldn’t remember you ever existed.
Your characterization of Manning’s treatment in detention is so cherry-picked in terms of detail and duration as to suggest that you actually know full-well what his conditions were, or that you’re getting your information from dishonest sources.
Sounds like a Greenwald fan engaging in projection.
Also sounds like some weasel-words to avoid acknowledging that I’m right on the facts I laid out.
I’m not defending every element of Manning’s treatment. The CO of that brig was removed from his pot for good reasons.
But nonetheless, Greenwald lied about the subject, made things up, and deliberately misrepresented the facts in order to spin them in his pre-ordained direction. It is possible, you know, to be honest and acknowledge that his writing on the subject has been shown to be dishonest, without concluding that everything that happened to Manning was appropriate.
Joe Lowell:
The Rolling Stones:
emphasis mine
Characterizing a situation in which someone meets with psychiatrists, lawyers, and, oh yeah, visitors several times a week as “nearly a year of isolation” may sell well to the Greenwald fanbois, but not to anyone else.
It’s nice that the rock magazine from which you get your political information took the term that was spun up and presented it as fact, but it doesn’t change the actual, underlying facts.
“Anything he said prior to getting his Miranda rights read to him wasn’t going to be admissible anyway.”
So, you also don’t understand what the public safety exception is an exception to?
I’m late to this conversation; but, I have some questions that no one has talked about. Why did the younger brother run over his older brother? Just exactly was the cause of death of the older brother? If he died of injuries incurred from being run over, why not work to find out if the kid has any remorse for possibly being the cause of death of his brother? I recently read that the cause of death of the brother has not been released. Why is that?
My understanding is that the younger brother ran over the older, who was out of the car and I believe already down on the ground from gunshots, trying to flee the police during the gunfight. Further details: http://www.examiner.com/article/boston-bombing-suspect-may-have-run-over-dragged-and-killed-his-brot
her
I heard on a recent radio discussion of the case that the autopsy report will be released when elder brother’s body is released to his relatives for burial; that uncle Ruslan is who will be taking it. Further details: http://www.examiner.com/article/relatives-to-claim-body-of-boston-bomb-suspect-tamerlan-tsarnaev