If this seems prudent or sane to you, you are probably crazy. We all know better than to trust government estimates of the cost of military intervention, but let’s go with the $50 million/day to create a limited no-fly zone in southern Syria. How many days are we willing to pay that $50 million? Five hundred days? A thousand days? What was it in Iraq? Over three thousand days? Followed by trillions of dollars more for a full-on invasion and decade-long occupation?
Once we put our skin in the game and start incurring costs, there is no end game but victory, and there can be no victory without escalation. We will own an irreparably broken country. Again.
And the American people are not going to stand for it. Trust has been broken. This is a terrible idea.
That being said, if we are going to do this, Working with the Jordanians is by far our best option. There’s a huge refugee population to pool from. The Jordanians are more moderate, in general, than Saudis or folks from the Emirates. Turkey has the Ottoman legacy and Kurdish problem that makes them less than ideal interveners. And Iraq’s sympathies lie more with the Shiite/Alawite side of this sectarian battle.
Nonetheless, we should expect our foreign relations with Russia and Iraq to immediately go into the toilet and stay there. We should expect to become the target of Iranian/Hizbollah/Shiite-inspired terrorism attacks. We should even expect some Sunnis to attack us just for being in Jordan.
Moving along, assuming that our intervention succeeds in tilting the scales away from the Assad regime and eventually forces their abdication, where are the Alawites and the Shiites going to live? Because they aren’t going to be living in Syria. Will they all move to Iraq? To Iran? America?
According to the CIA Factbook, the Syrian population is currently 74% Sunni Muslim, 16% other Muslim (including Shiites, Alawites, and Druze) and 10% Christian. Once the Alawite regime falls, the majority Sunni population will annihilate them. We’ll have all that blood on our hands for the simple fact that we intentionally created the conditions that made it inevitable. And don’t think that Shiites in Iraq won’t erupt in reaction and resume butchering Sunnis in their country.
It’s been clear forever that the president doesn’t want to make this mistake, and it is now clear that he’s out of excuses for delay.
“Following a deliberative review, our intelligence community assesses that the Assad regime has used chemical weapons, including the nerve agent sarin, on a small scale against the opposition multiple times in the last year,” the deputy national security adviser, Ben Rhodes, said in a statement released by the White House on Thursday afternoon. “Our intelligence community has high confidence in that assessment given multiple, independent streams of information”
President Obama said in April that the United States had physiological evidence that the nerve gas sarin had been used in Syria but lacked proof of who used it and under what circumstances. Mr. Rhodes said that American intelligence officials now believed that 100 to 150 people had died from the attacks, and he said that the number “is likely incomplete.”
In his statement, Mr. Rhodes alluded to Mr. Obama’s position that the use of chemical weapons would be a red line for the United States. “The president has said that the use of chemical weapons would change his calculus, and it has,” he said.
The small-scale use of sarin would be an insufficient reason for our country to assume this degree of risk and cost. And literally no one will thank us for our efforts.
Trust has been broken.
Yeah no shit. I have nothing productive to add. I mean, really…what the fuck is there to say?
NYTimes says the plan for now is just small arms shipments to the rebels. And that the administration is deeply reluctant to impose a no-fly zone. Why the assumption that all this is inevitably going to escalate into an Iraq-level quagmire? I think you are letting your fears get the better of you
not an iraq-style quagmire, an 80s/90s afghanistan-style arming of mujahadeen. how’d that turn out?
Actually, I would think it would be more along the lines of Libya: arms and possibly a no fly zone imposed by allies. There were never any “boots on the ground”, and also this is the closest corollary to Syria considering it is under the same leader, a nearby region, etc.
It is very interesting to post a trial balloon from the White House through the Wall Street Journal.
Might some “officials” be trying to stampede a decision?
Some officials perchance wanting to take the light off NSA?
And why is the deputy national security adviser fronting this report?
Smells Bay of Piggish.
The train is leaving the station. I sensed it a couple of days ago. All avenues of non-intervention are being systematically denied to the president.
The President is not obligated to act just because there is intense political pressure. If the train is leaving the station, it is because he took his foot off the brake and started the motion.
On this, he is not helpless. In fact, if he wanted to slow it down he would take it to Congress for a full and thorough vetting. Or is he betting the public screams will force him to take it to Congress?
Well, we’ll see whether anything like that Wall Street Journal plan gets announced. Right now, all we know is that we’re going to be giving arms to the rebels. As far as I am concerned, that puts us in the game for real, and now Washington is going to insist that we pay any price and bear any burden to win the war for the Sunnis.
Calling this “retarded” is insulting to retArded people.
Supplies never are what put us in the game for real. What puts us in the game for real is when a coffin comes home draped in an American flag. Then, politicians start “waving the bloody shirt” and jonesing for revenge.
If there are ever American personnel deciding who those guns are used on, we are effed because to too many in the military (and likely the intelligence community as well) all muslims look alike.
And Syria is a multi-way civil war in which US policy wants to privilege only one among three or four groups of rebels.
The admin said yesterday no fly zone is a no. Today the media is saying there might be a no fly zone.
The media is trying to gin up a war. Excitement, wow.
I’m not paying attention to much of the media on this. We are acting with other countries, not alone.
I can only hope against hope that Obama has the will to hold the line on this. Even with the small-arms announcement, so far he’s still pretty much the coolest head in the room.
Somebody should be asking the hotheads why they want us to come to the aid of al Qaeda. Because they and allied jihadis are a very significant component of the rebellion; by this time, perhaps the dominant component. I think we’re seeing once again the extent to which our neocons are tools of Saudi Arabia as well as of Israel.
Correct “arms to the rebels” to “arms to Al-Queda”. That’s who’s leading / taken over this rebellion. Every gun or bomb we send is a potential American death.
If Congress wants military action against Syria, they have a constitutional mechanism for that, for which they have the SOLE responsibility and power:
It’s called “A Declaration of War”.
Put up or shut up, warmongers.
All avenues of non-intervention are being systematically denied to the president.
Worse than the pressure to stay in Iraq?
Worse than the pressure to stay out of Libya?
Worse than the pressure not to abandon the missile defense bases in Eastern Europe?
Worse than the pressure to put terrorism suspects into military custody?
I do not understand where people get this idea that this President gets pushed around on foreign policy and military matters. He seems perfectly content to tell people to go pound sand, regardless of how hard they work the refs.
Very true, except should be “denied by the President” instead of “denied to the President”. He’s the one who drew the line in the sand as I heard him boast on Progressive Radio today. He’s the one who has been pushing for this. Why? I don’t know. Maybe legacy, maybe money, maybe Permagov orders as Arthur Gilroy will probably say.
FYI, talked with two Democrats at break this afternoon about this, one white and conservative leaning, the other black and very Left & very much an Obama booster. Both said the same thing, “Must be oil in Syria.”
And why was that dipshit Senator from Arizona one of the first to leak it to the media? Was he jerking off on the Senate floor?
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Wonder if Assad regrets allowing in all those refugees fleeing the war in Iraq.
Why do I bother voting any more? Nothing good ever transpires for the better. Obama is becoming less and less to me.
>>Why do I bother voting any more?
this, to me, is the great lesson of the Obama administration.
A lesson that won’t be learned any better than we learned from the communist witchhunts, all the splendid US backed coups, Vietnam, Watergate, COINTELPRO, Iran-Contra, the S&L lootings, the Iraq War, Clinton, Bush/Cheney …
But hey, at least Palin isn’t VP; so, there’s that and the first daughter isn’t Meagan McCain.
Would you believe I had a Conservative Christian tell me just this morning that Sarah Palin was more qualified to be VP than Hillary Clinton? Words failed me. I could only sit there with my jaw dropped open.
How’s the Iraq War going under Obama?
You do know that you are citing something that hasn’t happened as your evidence, right?
Maybe the problem is that we don’t go to hell. We just impose hell on others in various parts of the world. That’s why we can do it again and again because we don’t pay a price that ordinary Americans can see and feel. Not unless they can connect the dots between military/”security” funding and bridges collapsing, higher costs to attend public colleges, inadequate public transit, etc.
Meanwhile, a bit of hell is visiting Colorado again.
“Endless money forms the sinews of war.”
-Cicero
OT: re the NSA story and Snowden’s report that the US had carried out cyberattacks on Hong Kong commercial firms.
A good insight into the implications of that news.
The NSA slides I hope Glenn Greenwald chooses to release
It’s not about releasing slides at all but the consequences of using black-hat contractors to design and create offensive exploits to use in cyberattacks.
Is this really going to be the argument?
Complying with the letter of the law and totally missing the spirit?
Why not use long-range missiles fired from the middle of an ocean and spare compromising the rule of the fake king of Jordan?
Get it through your fucking heads.
Wake the fuck up.
AG
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Warmongering by Turkey after Israeli air strikes inside Syria in February. After repeated accusations, some intelligence agencies came forward telling the world they had “proof” chemical weapons were used by Assad’s forces.
Some links from my recent diary – Key City Qusayr Fallen to Assad’s Forces.
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Why haven’t we read this news item in the WPM – Western Propaganda Media?
Posted earlier @BooMan Tribune – Syrian Opposition Forces Caught with Sarin Gas in Turkey.
Because it interferes with the “Assad is the monster” story they’re cutting and pasting from the old ones with Castro, Ho Chi Minh, Khomeini, Gaddafi, Noreiga, Saddam, Milosovic, bin Laden, Saddam (again), Ahmadinejab, Gaddafi (again), etc. as the monster that’s coming to get us.
When JFK was shot down in the street fifty years ago the killers didn’t just go back to their respective desks on Monday. The levers of power changed on that day. After that, whenever a President got too big for his britches he was marginalized or removed.
Obama has very little wiggle room.
This is just how it is in America now.
“Once the Alawite regime falls, the majority Sunni population will annihilate them. We’ll have all that blood on our hands for the simple fact that we intentionally created the conditions that made it inevitable. And don’t think that Shiites in Iraq won’t erupt in reaction and resume butchering Sunnis in their country.”
Annihilate? Butcher? These are not the actions of civilized humans. Our actions should reflect this truth.
I say stay as far away from this mess as possible.
comparison to Iraq. If we get involved and it is still if, it will be more like the Libya intervention than the Iraq intervention. I know you were against Libya but that was a limited and successful intervention. I don’t want US boots on the ground but I don’t have a problem with a no-fly zone provided we are not the only country providing aircraft for it. I don’t want us arm anyone though because it is a giant clusterfuck.
I do think you are ignoring the humanitarian crisis that is going on there just like you did for Libya. We saved lots of lives in Libya.
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Beyond the millions of deaths caused by US intervention policy in recent three decades, what does the world do for the real humanitarian crisis?
A No-Fly Zone + not arming the opposition enough to win the war = Iraq from 1992-2003.
It doesn’t matter how much it costs because there is a war lobby driving this desire to engage in another conflict. Their media operatives (McCain and Graham) have been clamoring for this for months and now finally it’s going to happen. The executives at Boeing, Lockheed, Halliburton, Aerotech, Blackwater et al must be drinking champagne and smoking cigars in anticipation.
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Opinions of just a few days now part of history and/or fiction …
If we held our national quard to this “standard for poisoning civilians” for military action we’d be engaged in war against many American corporations, military medical doctors…etc.
Not to mention the CIA’s LSD experiments in the NY Subway.
They cut food aid to poor kids but find money for more war gamed. Sickening
Heard that question on the air this morning by a caller, “How come there is not enough money for food stamps and Medicaid because of the sequester, but there is enough money available to give away billions in arms?”
More leftiness, pie-in-the-sky bullshit.
The “American people”…the huge majority of them, anyway…will stand for anything that they are told to stand for by the PermaGov media. There are basically only centrist, rightiness and leftiness media. Say 65% centrist, 20% rightiness and 14% leftiness with maybe 1% actually “rightist” or “leftist” in the true meaning of the words. The overwhelming majority of the media are centrist, thus the centrist media make the decisions. Or rather, they disseminate the decisions that have already been made at the top of the PermaGov. In this particular case the rightiness media will agreee. It’s a done deal if the PermaGov controllers want it to be a done deal. If it’s just another feint in your 11 dimensional chess game it will eventually wander off into the media archives along with all of the other hottest-thing-ever news stories that now seem to come barreling down the media pike on a weekly basis.
Fer chrissakes, Booman. Deal wid it. The only thing for which “the American people” will not stand is interruption of services. Food, fuel, media…you know. The important stuff. As long as they are allowed to gorge on bad food, drive or otherwise get to work, pay their rent-a-life bills and zone out on reality shows, they will “stand” for anything.
Bet on it.
AG
I’m not going to throw up my hands just yet. A Murdock publication writing about “a military proposal” is not going to be my first choice for a comprehensive assessment of what it going on. The Pentagon sketches out multiple scenarios. Maybe I’ve missed the news, but it’s not clear to me yet that other than arming a few carefully chosen rebels that we are going to do anything else.
I also think Obama gets the nuance of various options wrt military and diplomatic responses.
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There is NO conclusive evidence Assad’s forces used sarin gas causing the deaths of 100-150 persons. None of the earlier propaganda video’s and statements from rebels claimed this number of deaths. Pinocchio award range 5.
« click for story
Colin Powell holding a model vial of anthrax at UN Security Council (Wikipedia)
How long until the White House walks back the deputy national security adviser’s “misstatements” about US intelligence determination that the Assad government has used sarin on its own people?
Extraordinary claims deserve declassification of the evidence. JFK had Adlai Stevenson present the aerial photos of the missiles in Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis.
Easy there, big fella.
Asking for military options, to see what an action would look like, is not the same thing as ordering to happen. Often, it’s a good way to put together a strong argument why something shouldn’t happen.
Could this effort to stampede intervention be happening now because the negotiated settlement track John Kerry was pursuing when he went to Russia is starting to show some promise?
Wow. You might be on it. The whole thing seemed sketchy for having been pushed through the WSJ. I hope you are right. Putin was disputing the conclusions of US intelligence about Assad’s use of sarin.
I have some practical doubts about the sarin story. Given Israeli raids, it is possible (likelihood is unknown) that some of the targets were known or suspected storage areas for chemical weapons. I don’t know but speculate that sufficient heat might turn chemical weapons into more benign substances and that there might be sufficient trace residues or sarin, in this case, to be identified by intelligence personnel mucking around a site. Enough to provide legs to a narrative that Assad used chemical weapons on his own people.
My practical doubts don’t relate to that speculation but to the fact that the mixture of pro-Assad and rebels in a tight geographical areas is such that the risk of injuring or killing your own supporters is high.
In this case, I want our esteemed intelligence community to show their work.
The price paid for Idris’ attendance in Geneva?:
That would explain a lot.
Good catch, Shaun.
Wheels within wheels.