I don’t want to place myself in a pro-snooping camp but I do want to discuss the controversy over David Miranda’s detention at Heathrow Airport in a balanced way. As I’ve said from the beginning, detaining Mr. Miranda under an anti-terrorism statute was ridiculous. The idea, I guess, is that some of the information that Mr. Miranda was carrying could be helpful to terrorists if divulged to the general public, but Bob Cesca comes closer to the true motivation for the detention with this observation:
U.K. authorities can’t possibly believe that by seizing the documents from Miranda that they’re somehow obstructing the ability of The Guardian and Greenwald to write about the content of the documents. Clearly, they’re simply attempting to ascertain which specific stolen documents were attained by Greenwald and filmmaker Laura Poitras from Snowden.
While still maintaining that the terrorism statute was an inappropriate mechanism, it seems to me that it is a legitimate national security activity to do a thorough damage assessment by ascertaining exactly what documents have been leaked. In taking the documents out of the hands of journalists, who have a legal and conventional right to possess leaked documents, and putting them in the hands of a private contract courier, Greenwald and Poitras gave the UK authorities an opening to peruse the potential damage. And that’s really what happened here. It wasn’t an effort to intimidate; it was an intelligence collection operation. It was also, from Greenwald’s end, a blown smuggling operation. It didn’t have to be that way. The Guardian could have sent an actual journalist to carry the documents, but they chose Greenwald’s husband instead. That was a mistake.
I’ll leave it to the British people to argue about the legal rationale that was used. That’s their problem. But Greenwald and The Guardian have mischaracterized the whole episode from the beginning, starting with the fact that Mr. Miranda was offered legal counsel and initially refused it, and that he eventually did get legal representation despite his initial refusal. I remain skeptical of British claims that the documents that Mr. Miranda was smuggling could put lives at risk, but how would they know unless they looked at them?
I understand that some people are just reflexively opposed to the national security state. But we ought to balance that skepticism with some acknowledgment that we need to have a secure classification system. But, most importantly, if you are going to go up against the international intelligence community, you better dot your i’s and cross your t’s, and not spew a bunch of overheated hype that makes it easy to not only discredit you but to discredit the principles you are fighting for.
Michael D. Brown for Senate.
That DC voting rights stuff is fucked up and bullshit. It’s so bizarre that we didn’t fix this, like, 125 years ago.
As someone who has lived in DC, no it’s not. It’s there for good reason.
Greenwald keeps warning everyone not to make the story about Snowden, and that the security state should be at the center of it.
Then Greenwald goes and makes the center of the story himself, and the ultra hypocrite unPures who obviously love them some drone terrorism and the security state when a Democrat is in office.
Greenwald is too much of an attorney to really understand that the way that he threatens and blusters isn’t how people expect real-life journalists to be. He isn’t in a courtroom making an impassioned argument; he’s attempting to be a journalist writing on militarism and the security state.
And Greenwald’s worshipers, who will be here soon I’d imagine, take his message of FCK YOU BUDDY! and make sure to tarnish every single person with it who comments on stories like this agreeing that the issue is important, but that Greenwald is helping to turn it into a sideshow.
I’m a lot more progressive than probably 99% of people. Real progressive. But while I understand the security state is terrible, it isn’t like I didn’t know this was going on already. I’m not going to go get my lynching rope and hat out for Obama the Terrible, as this kind of crap happens at a level of government that he can’t just stop at will.
I think Bernie Sanders would be a good start in the right direction, in terms of policy. But I’m not going to blame Obama the Terrible first and foremost. You stick Elizabeth Warren in there tomorrow, and that NSA stuff will just keep chugging along.
Glenn Greenwald has an important story, but he needs to stop sticking himself and the dirty liberal unPures into it whenever he can. I think Bradley Manning should be released today and compensated for his torture. Julian Assange should be able to move freely anywhere in the world, as should Snowden.
Our government shouldn’t be doing this shit, giving them a reason to do what they did.
But coming back to reality, our country is substantially broken and needs a lot of work. Not enough people care to change it RIGHT NOW, so I’m going to continue to support the less-fascist Democratic party until the Republican party is dead and buried, and then I’ll go for the even-less-fascist new party until a better one comes along.
And there will be some Glenn Greenwald worshiper who will assume I love the police state and Emperor Obama because I live in reality and know that it could be a lot worse, and barring a SHOOTING WAR, you have to go through the political process.
Absolutely right. They have no superiors. Which is why it might require a SHOOTING WAR as you put it, unfortunately it’s one they’d almost surely win.
Greenwald is too much of an attorney to really understand that the way that he threatens and blusters isn’t how people expect real-life journalists to be.
Greenwald seems to engage in a sort of bargaining relationship with the truth, like someone haggling over a rug in a marketplace. He wants the public to end up with a certain understanding, so he makes claims far in excess of what he thinks is true, assuming that they will eventually settle on something less than that.
Maybe that works with most people, I don’t know. For me, when I see someone engaging in dishonesty, it makes me inclined to reject their story in its totality. It’s a habit that goes back, I guess, to the Bush administration’s case before the Iraq War, or perhaps even to the Gingrich attacks on Clinton during the 1990s.
Barry Eisler or Bob Cesca? I know who I’d chose to believe:
http://barryeisler.blogspot.com/2013/08/david-miranda-and-preclusion-of-privacy.html
Also, too, I’d believe William Binney’s word over Cesca’s.
I’d never read Cesca before. He’s like a cartoonish exaggeration of all the things people hate about Greenwald. I need to rinse my corneas.
Dude bought what the Guardian was selling hook line and sinker.
You think there might be a few holes in that laptop destruction story?
More than that, though, is the inability to understand that the IC wanted to know what Snowden had stolen.
It’s obvious that that is what they were after because they let Miranda go once they had the passwords they needed. They are talking about it maybe being a crime now, but he’s chilling at his home in Rio.
They got what they wanted.
It’s not like its standard journalistic practice to use private citizens as contract agents to ferry zip drives across international borders. The IC had no need to discourage a practice that isn’t practiced.
Dude bought what the Guardian was selling hook line and sinker.
So, an ex-CIA guy is an idiotic tool? Why can’t it be the most likely scenario? Because it doesn’t fit what you want to believe?
You think there might be a few holes in that laptop destruction story?
What holes, exactly? I don’t like it but for different reasons. Just like I didn’t like the NYT holding that story about BushCo spying until after he beat Kerry. You do remember that, right?
More than that, though, is the inability to understand that the IC wanted to know what Snowden had stolen.
And he stole British property? Is that what you are alleging? Has he worked on British systems? Am I missing something here? Otherwise, why are the British stopping him for what is purely a U.S. matter?
It’s obvious that that is what they were after because they let Miranda go once they had the passwords they needed. They are talking about it maybe being a crime now, but he’s chilling at his home in Rio.
We really don’t know what they got other than what Miranda has stated. If they were so sure that he committed a crime, why not hold him at the time? And as you said, they are talking about maybe. So they still obviously figured out what they have. If they had a case they would have charged him by now.
They got what they wanted.
Which was? What happens if no charges are ever filed? What happens if all the files were just dummies and the trip was just a dry run? Only time will tell what happens next.
It’s not like its standard journalistic practice to use private citizens as contract agents to ferry zip drives across international borders. The IC had no need to discourage a practice that isn’t practiced.
They certainly knew that Miranda was Greenwald’s partner. And given Greenwald’s position re: the Snowden affair, you really think IC, or whomever, didn’t notice Miranda’s traveling?
There is not enough fuel left in the Sun to give me the time I would need to respond to this drivel.
Obviously you have no answers. You complain about Greenwald, and his sins what ever they are, yet can’t answer questions when holes are poked in your story. Typical.
Calvin, your thought processes here do not even resemble pretzel logic, let alone logic. I can’t be bothered.
You’re just intimidated by his towering intellect, like Sarah Palin.
Anyway, there is one point in there that is at least interesting enough to refute:
If they had a case they would have charged him by now.
Like Dick Cheney, I guess. There can be no reasons why law enforcement might choose not to charge someone, except that they don’t have a legal case. Everyone knows this, BooMan!
What Boo, and Cesca, apparently don’t want to see, or accept, is that the surveillance/security state as we know it today is just a massive boondoggle/grift that makes Snowbilly Snookie look like a rank amateur.
So, an ex-CIA guy is an idiotic tool?
So, which is it?
Just on the point “the IC wanted to know what Snowden had stolen:” if they are fossicking around on Miranda’s or the Guardian’s computers to answer that question what does it say about their internal audit capability? For an organisation at the front lines of the cyberwar, doesn’t it raise flags that they could be unsure of the extent of the breach? Tarheel linked to this in the previous Greenwald thread:
Highly speculative, to be sure, but Schneier would know a thing or two about security audits. It is worth a read.
Wasn’t Booz Allen the last place Snowden worked? Do they know what Snowden “took”? And we trust private, profit-seeking companies with the security of this country? What Boo, and Cesca, apparently don’t want to see, or accept, is that the surveillance/security state as we know it today is just a massive boondoggle/grift that makes Snowbilly Snookie look like a rank amateur.
I’m guessing Booz Hamilton just sources the talent and cuts their cheques, frankly. I totally agree however about the massive industry created by all this national security skulduggery; TSA, Homeland Security et al. The waste is impossible to conceal.
As for Booman, however, I admire his prudence. Someone has to consistently take the reasonable approach to all of this from the Left and always assume the government is acting from integrity and in good faith until proven otherwise. I think he gives this forum a sense of civic responsibility which is enviable and increasingly scarce in public discourse on both sides of the partisan divide. I might not always agree but there it is. Just my two cents.
The problem is that Snowden was a sysadmin. Normally you can track what people access over a network and what they do. However sysadmins have the keys to the kingdom so to speak. They can cover their tracks or make it look like someone else did it. So if your IT department goes rogue, there’s really no telling what they can do and little you can do to stop them.
I think that a sloppy person could leave a complete trace of everything they searched, downloaded, viewed, etc. But I don’t think Snowden was that sloppy. He was advising his contacts on how to set up encrypted systems so that they could communicate safely. I would bet that the NSA was able to complete a partial picture of what he stole, but without total confidence that they knew it all. In any case, nothing is a substitute for certainty.
To a point. Much of the issue with the FICA oversight is the strength of the audits governing access of NSA personnel to queries on their systems within the constraints of the law. It’s a bit rich, isn’t it, for them to claim, on the one hand, that they have the place locked down tight when it comes to oversight but that they aren’t sure what Snowden actually got his hands on?
Admittedly Snowden’s revelations have been more general system stuff but like much else about this case it strikes me as highly embarrassing. The scariest aspect of all of this is not just the unprecedented snooping and recording but the apparent incompetence of those administering the activity and the security surrounding it. Bit of a clown car it seems to me; just ask the Bolivian president.
In any case, you take my point.
An audit would probably point out what documents might have been stolen but there is not way to know without recovering the stolen files themselves.
Yes, I read the Schneier article. The problem isn’t just that it’s highly speculative, it’s also that the speculation is pretty much entirely constrained by the Big Brother hypothesis. Someone with just a little more imagination, who hadn’t already made up his mind that this is TYRANNY!!!, could come up with all kinds of other plausible speculations.
Just a quick note on the “They know the password” part. I would be very surprised if their is any password involved in this kind of things. It is most likely a public-private asymmetric or just plain symmetric encryption. In case of the first one the private key file is never shared with anyone so no one but the recipient can open the files. They are not that easy to break either if not impossible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public-key_cryptography
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symmetric-key_cryptography
What a terrible way to decide the truth: who do I like more?
When in doubt, you can always quote Benjamin Franklin.
“In taking the documents out of the hands of journalists, who have a legal and conventional right to possess leaked documents, and putting them in the hands of a private contract courier, Greenwald and Poitras gave the UK authorities an opening to peruse the potential damage.”
By using a terrorism statute? How would that protect journalists? And I guess they didn’t destroy hard drives at the Guardian office because it’s a newspaper….
Really, you flail around like this and demand the Greenwald dot his i’s and cross his t’s?
BTW, your last Greenwald-bashing post didn’t make any sense, either. He’s supposedly a liar because he said the lawyers couldn’t get any information about Miranda until 8 hours had elapsed, then didn’t speak to him until he was released????? As if they couldn’t get any information about Miranda except from the man himself.
Mr. Miranda said himself, in a comment to the press, that he refused both legal counsel and a glass of water because he distrusted the authorities, but Greenwald claimed that he was told that he could not have any lawyers (an evident lie). And then Greenwald said that Miranda was denied legal representation “for the full nine hours” when that wasn’t true. And he admitted that he got word from his husband at the eight hour mark, which is exactly when his lawyers told the court that they made contact with Miranda.
This is not rocket science.
They yanked your chain.
Well, sure, go on to your next story. After all, it doesn’t matter whether what YOU say is correct.
Because the story is always Greenwald, and anyone who tries to steer it back to the behavior of the UK must be, by extension, a Greenwald lackey.
This is not my “next story.” It is “my story.”
This piece, and the preceding one, are about how Greenwald does a disservice to those who want to criticize the national security apparatus because he’s lies.
For years now, I’ve read that Republicans would believe in global warming if only Al Gore weren’t so fat. The bulk of the climate denialist argument involves ad hominems accusing climatologists of lying with the intent to discredit the message by attacking the messenger.
You are using the same tactics here. We are talking about the NSA scandal because Greenwald did the work of exposing it at at time when many major news organizations have been complicit in covering it up. It’s nonsense to argue he has done a disservice unless you’d prefer people to stop talking about the story.
Think harder.
Greenwald received documents and those documents, not Greenwald, are why we’re talking about the NSA.
The reason we are talking about Greenwald, too, is because his reporting is filled with errors, hype, and distortion. We aren’t sitting around talking about Spencer Ackerman or Barton Gellman, because they aren’t hacks.
Greenwald published reports about those documents. That’s why we’re talking about the NSA.
And he also lies a lot, then asks us to trust his characterization of the issues and facts in his reports.
That would be more salient if Greenwald was the only one writing articles about the NSA, but he’s not. He’s just the one that is driving people nuts with his hype and hyperbole.
No, we’re talking about Greenwald because it was his partner who was detained in Heathrow Airport. The fact that he botched the story reflects badly on him, but it’s absurd to think that Miranda was stopped because the British intelligence community thinks that Greenwald is a hack.
Be honest. Do you think that the blogosphere started arguing over Greenwald’s credibility only after his husband was detained?
No, but I think his credibility is much more relevant now than it was a week ago, or six months ago, and that it’s getting more attention from a lot of people. That includes me, and judging by your output over the last week, it includes you, too.
Okay, but your causal argument above is not correct. We are not talking about Greenwald’s credibility because his husband was detained. We are talking about his credibility because it had already become seriously suspect by the time his husband was detained, and his behavior since has only cemented that suspicion.
Al Gore’s weight has nothing to do with anything except his personal health.
Greenwald’s distortions are related to the NSA scandal because he actually distorts facts about the NSA scandal. It’s a pretty simple difference.
If somebody wrote articles in favor of the NSA surveillance program and you found that he consistently got things factually wrong, you would be pointing that out to us whenever we cite him.
Al Gore is consistently accused of lying about climate change, just as you are accusing Greenwald of constantly lying about the NSA. He is accused of being a partisan activist with and agenda on the subject, just as Greenwald is being accused of being being one on national security issues.
You haven’t demonstrated to me that Greenwald is a habitual liar on this subject, any more than conservatives have proven their case against Gore. Booman’s last post about Miranda seemed like the height of nitpicking to me.
Being fat is like lying, when it comes to assessing someone’s credibility.
Thank you, Jinchi.
Google is your friend, joe.
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Al+Gore+is+fat%22
Yes, Jinchi, I’d never heard that ‘Al Gore is fat,’ and you didn’t misunderstand anything at all.
Here, try again: It is stupid for you to equate discrediting someone because they are fat with discrediting someone because they have a history of lying.
Did you get it this time?
All attempts at discrediting are exactly equal and the same and are all equally invalid. Obviously.
And if anyone says otherwise…DON’T LISTEN TO THEM!
I’m all for talking about the NSA scandal, but I’m finding it difficult because too many people have already made up their minds. And I do think Greenwald has had a hand in that with all his hyperbole.
For instance, I keep hearing that the focus on Greenwald distracts from serious analysis of the NSA scandal, but then the serious analysts turn out to be 100% convinced that the whole thing obviously and flagrantly violates the 4th Amendment, even though that is in fact debatable. It all turns on whether electronic communications qualify as “papers or effects,” and whether indexing metadata is unreasonable.
As one of the citizens affected, I suppose I’m as qualified as anybody to say that I don’t feel violated. I’ve tried to feel outraged, but knowing that the NSA has no reason whatsoever to give a damn about my email makes that a little difficult.
Insert predictable response here.
Does it violate the 4th Amendment or not? I say it does and that issues about ‘metadata’ and the lack of personal feelings of violation are largely misdirection.
Also “insert predictable response here” does not sound like an invitation to a serious discussion, I hope I have not misjudged you.
Weird that no matter how often the “national security state” is exposed as having engaged in illegal activities, spying on journalists, writers and peace activists, and failed totally in OKC, on 9/11, and Boston, that it’s never discredited in the eyes of those that want a secretive and authoritarian government.
Even so, once they seized his stuff why was there a need to detain him for the full time? As I understand it they didn’t have to give him back his stuff for 7 days and that’s if a court didn’t order them kept beyond that.
4. He said that certain mail couriers have rights above and beyond those enjoyed by ordinary private citizens, sort of like how journalists have certain rights above and beyond those enjoyed by private citizens.
You’re #4 is just stupid.
Private citizens do not have a right against search while crossing national borders or to carry classified material they are not authorized to have. Lawyers, doctors, jounalists, members of the government, people carrying trade secrets all have special rights when transporting various items or crossing borders.
There’s nothing nefarious about this. Go average can’t board a plane carrying a firearm and tell the TSA they can’t look in his brief case. An FBI agent can.
Miranda was changing planes. Didn’t go through passport control and therefore, didn’t cross an international border. He wasn’t carrying any weapons and wasn’t suspected of having any weapons.
Maybe next time Greenwald will ask when of those special people you list that are entitled not to be subjected to detention, search, and seizure.
He isn’t authorized to carry classified material. End of story. Greenwald knows this. This was deliberate on Glenns part.
And you, I, and the billions of people in the world without US security clearances aren’t authorized to read classified documents. So, let’s all close our eyes and ears to avoid being in violation of government censorship. (heh, didn’t the State Dept. forbid non-security clearance employees from accessing the Wikileaks State Dept cables at work or home?)
Actually, I am. I’ve held several.
And if you’re OK with unauthorized people carrying them I assume you’re OK with with unauthorized people carrying guns on planes as well. Lunatic libertarian.
Why would I be okay with people carrying guns on airplanes because I don’t agree that governments should go around spying on citizens and maintaining huge secret troves of documents that have little value except to hide from the public what is being to them and by whom?
As I’m neither a libertarian nor a lunatic (and a pro-gun regulation advocate for longer than you’ve been alive), you might want to work on your reading comprehension skills and impulse control before flinging out ad hominem attacks.
You’re arguing that people should be able to carry whatever they want, anyone. In that case, you are making the same arguments as the NRA. Have fun with Wayne.
Wow — a bully and really dumb as well.
From Christopher H. Pyle The Right to Remain Silent in an Age of Mass Surveillance.
(emphasis added}
They stopped him to seize stolen materials and while doing so asked him questions.
Well, Christopher H. Pyle, whoever that is, has asserted that this is the case, so I guess that settles it.
Seriously, aren’t you interested in any kind of evidence beyond quoting people who agree with you?
I believe that all scrutiny and questioning done at airports in the UK is technically “under the terrrorism statute.” That’s the mechanism that authorizes them to search anyone’s stuff, whether or not that person is actually suspected of involvement in terrorism. The law itself may be inappropriate, but citing it like that appears to be nothing more than by-the-books SOP.
Similarly, charging someone under the Espionage Act doesn’t necessarily mean charging them with the crime of espionage.
And, while I said this on the other thread, I’ll repeat it. There is nothing wrong with thinking the following two thoughts at roughly the same time: (1) Greenwald’s stories are often misleading; (2) surveillance and privacy are legitimate issues.
The number of people crowding the blogosphere intent on treating statement (1) as impossible because of statement (2), or that anyone who says (1) somehow denies (2), is absolutely mind-boggling.
.
At last, a very good rant BooMan. Thanks!
You as owner of the blog can set the rationale of the discussion on this very important topic.
The content of the earlier discussions was based on emotions, not reason. I’m surprised to find a complete new audience over at European Tribune and bloggers who care and give valued responses. On my two recent diaries there are more than 60 posts to each one. My thought: “The good old days.”
○ Bloggers pro-Obama and anti-Greenwald – A Distraction on Issue
○ Lavabit and the Strong Arm of Big Brother USA
Minister Theresa May who handled the David Miranda case will soon experience the Brits are still part of a greater European Union. BTW in relation to the US offering Egypt a mere $250m for civilian projects, the EU gives $6.5bn aid this year. No surprise the interim government is lending its ear to the EU and Ashton.
○ Council of Europe asks UK to explain intimidation against the Guardian
work.
Duh, wouldn’t the NSA just be able to go through the file cabinet and see which manilla folders were missing?
I think you absolutely nail it with this comment, Booman.
Speaking as an immigration lawyer, however, I would add that states are extremely proprietary about their right to decide who enters a country and what they subject applicants for admission to before making the decision to admit, arrest or put on the next plane out of Dodge.
In American immigration law it’s called “inspection and admission.” Good luck arguing with any state that as a foreign citizen you have some kind of “right” to enter another country without going through this process. Moreover, under American law there generally is no “right to counsel” while applying for admission at a port of entry.
What we saw in action here was the UK equivalent.
Greenwald as a lawyer knows this but of course, as other have pointed out, he is a polemical litigator whose articles read like slimy legal briefs that always distort the facts to suit his “case.” As a lawyer and as a “journalist,” that’s why I have no hesitance in calling him out for what he truly is: a compleat asshole.
Can you cite this law? Because I think you’re wrong. I don’t know the particulars of the British legal system, but certainly in the United States, journalists have no more legal right to leaked documents than any other person on the street. Britain has even more restrictive laws concerning free speech.
I get the feeling that you’re trying to thread a needle here, suggesting that it would be okay if a “journalist” had carried the documents, but somehow its an illegal smuggling operation if anyone else had done so.
Isn’t the fact that they detained him under the anti-terrorism statute enough to make it outrageous? The fact that the UK may have also legitimately wanted the information it sought from him doesn’t make the detention right. Governments probably would like all kinds of information from reporters and other people. But they can’t just detain them and steal their electronic equipment to do it unless they have a legitimate lawful grounds to do so.
There was no legitimate lawful grounds here, so the detention was outrageous. That by itself is enough.
Are you a lawyer trained in British law who has read their “Terrorism Act”? If not it seems you are arriving at your opinion based on the title of the law.
Do you feel the US’s “Patriot Act” is about patriotism? See what I mean?
I am a lawyer. All American lawyers are “trained in British law” to one extent or another (the U.S. adopted British common law and American law school involves reading quite a few British decisions, even some recent ones because their decisions are so influential here). And yes, I have read through the Terrorism Act of 2000, which I believe is the statutory basis used for detaining Mr. Miranda. For what it’s worth, one of the Lord Chancellors who introduced the legislation has stated that Miranda’s detention was illegal.
And no, I don’t think that the Patriot Act is about Patriotism. But while the text of the Patriot Act doesn’t refer repeatedly to “patriotism” or define that term, the UK’s Terrorism Act refers to “terrorism” or “terrorist” in virtually every section and it includes a detailed definition of the word “terrorism”.
See the difference?
Thanks for replying. I am not a lawyer nor am I trainied in any form of law. But I am a veteran user of the internet where one constantly runs into people offering expert opinions that really aren’t. Since you are qualified to offer an opinion I will incorporate it into my thinkingon this matter going forwards. Thanks you. (And yes, the fact teh British law defines its terms inside the law itself is significant.)
I know that journalists can’t be prosecuted just for possession leaked documents, but does that mean they can’t be searched at the airport?
Journalists can be prosecuted in the UK for leaked documents and have been, but the law under which Miranda was detained was limited specifically to suspected terrorists, and the overseers of this law in the UK are investigating this as an abuse. Had Miranda actually entered the UK (he was in an international waiting area), he likely could legally be charged with possessing state secrets. But he wasn’t treated that way even after interrogation when he was let into the UK to wait for his plane to Brazil–since the interrogation caused him to miss his scheduled flight.
Thus there are only two motives for the interrogation. (1) An excuse to seize his equipment because NSA and the UK do not know what Snowden took. (2) Sending a message of intimidation to journalists handling the material that they can be harassed in transit at any airport in the US or UK.
They can’t be searched under the law that the UK used to justify Miranda’s search unless their is reasonable suspicion that they are terrorists. The question then is what is the evidence that Miranda is potentially a terrorist.
Shrinking this down to “Which law should the UK government use to search people at airports” takes quite a bit of the sting out of the story.
I disagree pretty strenuously, because the laws that the UK has against possession and publication of classified materials are also really terrible. I’m profoundly unthrilled by the way that the Espionage Act in the US has been slowly expanding as a way to crack down on people who leak stuff for reasons that have nothing to do with espionage, but it’s got nothing on the Offical Secrets Act.
I take your point about the Official Secrets Act. I was thinking of US law. In the US, the government and the people who work for it have a duty to keep secrets, and it is illegal to steal them, but if someone from the general public or media has something handed to them, they can do what the will (except pass them to the enemy in wartime).
One quibble, though: the Espionage Act hasn’t been expanded at all. The section on dissemination of classified material has been in there all along.
Quite the opposite, it’s been reduced from its original conception. The actions that got Eugene V. Debs imprisoned under the Act are now so commonplace among anti-war activists as to be wholly unremarkable.
The text of the Espionage Act hasn’t changed, but the way it’s been applied is in the last five or six years is a major departure from the way it was applied in the thirty-odd years before that. I don’t think I would like this shift in policy under any circumstances, but I think it’s particularly bad that it’s occurring now.
We’re using military force to fight a collection of stateless brigands without regard to national borders, at exactly the moment that technological developments have provided us with flying death robots and the ability to gather and correlate nominally public data in a way that will inevitably transform meaning of the word “privacy”.
I agree that the British authorities had a plausible national security justification for detaining Miranda (at least for a little while) and confiscating his electronics. It’s just that I only care in the sense that I think it’s important to understand a government’s motives when it abuses already excessive legal authority to screw somebody over.
The idea that we can only object to the actions of the state when it does something that can’t possibly benefit national security is one of the most persistent, yet pernicious, threads in our political discourse. Sure, the state often makes it easy by doing transparently ludicrous things in the name of keeping the public safe. It’s just that relying on that leaves you with freedoms that only apply when they don’t place anyone at risk.
We’re supposed to let people who we’re pretty damn sure are murderers walk around free if the state can’t prove that they’re guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. That creates real risks for the rest of us, but it’s still the right thing to do.
From its description alone the national security state is something everyone ought to be opposed to.
But not national security.
From its description alone, that’s something everyone ought to favor.
If the issue of Greenwald’s credibility and history of lying is so meaningless to the debate about the NSA’s operations, why bother commenting on these threads?
I didn’t comment on the thread about the pee pipe, because I think that the pee pipe is utterly irrelevant to anything I care about.
So what’s the motivation here?
Is it a personal affection for Greenwald that makes people feel that they must rush to defend his honor when it is challenged?
Or do the people playing coy actually understand quite clearly that their case depends very much on trusting Greenwald’s assertions and characterizations, despite their denials that his credibility is irrelevant?
“If the issue of Greenwald’s credibility and history of lying is so meaningless to the debate about the NSA’s operations, why bother commenting on these threads?”
Oh, that’s cute. You and Boo go “the issues are Greenwald, Greenwald, Greenwald, Greenwald, Greenwald, Greenwald, Greenwald, and more Greenwald!!!” If anyone contradicts you, they are suspicious by their mere presence.
It’s like you feel that your own arguments are so outrageous that we validate them by even discussing them. Brav-fucking-o.
I’m not “suspicious by their mere presence.” I have complete faith you’re merely a well-intentioned fool. The “Who sent you? Who are you working for?!?” brigade is all on your side. Congratulations!
But, yes, BooMan and I feel that Greenwald’s credibility matters, so of course we’re write about that. You feel that it does not, so…of course you’d write…about…uh…
I have no idea what your last sentence even means. I certainly don’t rely on you to validate anything.
Don’t miss Charles P. Pierce today.
Charles Pierce has never seemed shy about mocking media bigshots who embarrass themselves. That’s what some of us like to do when it comes to Glenn Greenwald. Maybe he’s telling a story that is important. Bully for him. If he draws misleading conclusions from it, or shades the truth, or leaves out important details, that matters too. It matters in the area of media criticism. The story also matters in the area of surveillance and privacy. We can talk about both of those areas, no?
Barry Eisler: The Heart of the Matter: David Miranda and the Preclusion of Privacy
I think that’s the best thing I’ve read all week. Thank you.
You guys who love Bob Cesca are going to love this one from Glenn Greenwald.
Glenn Greenwald, Guardian: Snowden: UK government now leaking documents about itself
I have argued that today the stakes are so high for a whistleblower that a whistleblower would not take information that was damaging to national security but only information that was evidence of wrongdoing. I have argued that Bradley Manning for the hundreds of thousands of documents he downloaded did have a rationale that tried to do that. I have argued that what has been released by Snowden thus far has only been evidence of overreach of law and authority.
Intelligence services will try to argue serious damage to national security just to up the charges against a whistleblower and they will hide the actual facts of the case under a blanket of secrecy. We saw this play out in the Manning trial. Intelligence services have certain journalists that they use for leaking on background very secret information and getting away with it. The most serious in recent memory was the boast about the responsibility for StuxNet, which likely came from a general officer. So if the source is unattributed and the matter seems to be very top secret but the information presented is vague, suspect an intelligence information asset is at work.
Snowden has credibility on this point just from the lack of specificity in what was released.
Two sides to every [story ]:http://driftglass.blogspot.com/2013/08/im-so-old.html]:
Believe what you want, since neither side has any credibility.
Dan Roberts, Guardian: US surveillance guidelines not updated for 30 years, privacy board finds
It seems that after almost 3 months, the glacier is beginning to move.
Im laughing my but off right now, as someone whos been called an Obot often on the liberal/progressive blogs about, cause alot of the same people ate now exhibiting the same “Dear Leader” mentality they accused “Obots” of.
other commenters: “Can we please not make this about Greenwald? I really don’t give a damn about him.”
lamh31: “I laugh at your slavish devotion to Greenwald!”
I’ve noticed that quite a bit.
My theory is that the tiny segment of Obama voters who actually fit the McCain campaign’s depiction of naive, cultish followers became disenchanted with Obama quite early, and responded not by altering their behavior, but merely its target.
Oh, well played, Dr. Krauthammer!
http://www.buzzfeed.com/bensmith/new-york-times-guardian-snowden
But ignore that every Snowden revelation that was published had the Guardian’s editorial oversight. Ignore the NYT’s decision to now publish them jointly. Glenn Greenwald is the story! Greenwald argues unfairly! He’s an attorney, not a journalist! And everyone who says he isn’t the story is a Greenwald lackey!!!!
PLEASE, all you not-at-all-reflexive-administration apologists, can we discuss the actual issues YET? Or does everything come back to the man you are obsessed with? Will what Greenwald sort-of-wrote about David Miranda being detained be the only issue forever?
..sadly, I already know the answer.
PLEASE, all you not-at-all-reflexive-administration apologists, can we discuss the actual issues YET?
WTF are you talking about?
In what universe are people not discussing the NSA and the Snowden revelations?