I am feeling very sad for the families of American journalists Steven Sotloff and James Foley. In the grand scheme of things, one life lost to ISIS is a small thing. This is an organization that wipes out whole communities in minutes, rapes and enslaves women, and executes anyone who won’t convert to their deranged version of Islam. But none of that mitigates the pain the family of James Foley is feeling tonight. And none of it can do anything to lesson the terror the Sotloff family is feeling.
The American people will not appreciate seeing one of their citizens beheaded on YouTube, and it will only create a greater willingness to lend support to efforts to destroy ISIS. If ISIS doesn’t understand this, they have learned nothing from how this country reacted to 9/11. We may not have reacted in a logical manner or in a productive manner, but we brought some serious violence. That’s how Americans react to provocation. For good or ill, we don’t respond well to threats. We’re capable of being good people when we have good leadership, and we have that right now. But that doesn’t mean we or our leaders are going to be blackmailed into letting the Islamic State turn the Middle East into a caliphate from the Middle Ages.
I’m worried about Steven Sotloff. I know ISIS is willing to follow through and kill him, and I know locating and rescuing him is a near-impossible task. But whether he lives or dies, we will find his tormenters and get our revenge.
But whether he lives or dies, we will find his tormenters and get our revenge.
I can’t tell from your writing what your attitude is about this, but my sense is that your attitude is similar to the infamous “Suck … on … this” statement from Thomas Friedman that Duncan Black reposts from time to time. That is: some people have to pay … and we’re not too particular about who those some people are (remember the kid who lost both arms the first day of the Iraq invasion? boy, I’m sure he learned his lesson).
I hope I’m wrong and that isn’t your attitude. Like you, I’m also incredibly angry at pretty much everything ISIS does – even after taking into account the distorted media coverage they still are clearly fundamentally evil. But at the same time I know that ISIS would not exist in anything like its present form were it not for US interventions in Iran and Iraq dating back to the 1953 overthrow of the secular democratic government of Iran – and then on through to the present day. More such interventions by the US won’t make the situation better – but then, such actions aren’t designed to make it better, are they?
My attitude is mixed, which is why you have to guess.
The sad truth is that my countrymen are a violent lot. While we have more than a fair share of simpering cowards, we also have admirable backbone and won’t be pushed around. If you poke us, we will react irrationally and often immorally, but we won’t be blackmailed. We’re overly eager to tell everyone what to do, but we’re also the only people who can save innocents from this malignancy represented by ISIS. Maybe we created this problem, but we’re not gonna sit around and let everyone suffer the consequences without trying to rectify it. And, to be clear, we never told anyone to adopt some fucked-up medieval version of Islam or tried to stoke a sectarian war within Islam. We’re too stupid to do something like that on purpose. You can’t pin all of this on us, or even on the worst of us (Cheney).
These guys that just beheaded James Foley? I want them dead. I not only expect this to happen, but I have full faith that it will happen. Could be 20 years from now, but we’ll get them. In itself, that will solve nothing. I recognize that. There are many other ways to solve things, but letting these fuckers go isn’t one of them.
If I were in charge, our foreign policy would look completely different from Bush’s or Obama’s foreign policy. I would never engage in Suck.on.This foreign policy. But I also know my country. You mess with us, and your people will suffer the consequences many times over. I wish we were capable of strategic thought, but we’re not. So, fuck with us at your peril, because we may shoot ourselves in the foot, but we will surely shoot you in the head.
Is that ambivalent enough for you?
“If I were in charge, our foreign policy would look completely different from Bush’s or Obama’s foreign policy. … You mess with us, and your people will suffer the consequences many times over.”
Tell me more of this “completely different” notion…
Bush and Cheney launched a war with a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 and, in fact, had not messed with us.
Boo, I feel as ambivalent as you. But I propose a reasonable compromise; we trade Bush AND Cheney for Sotloff. Hell, throw in their families too for good measure.
Well, you chose to selectively edit what I wrote to make a point.
It’s a good point, so I will respond to it.
Number one, I am not in charge. And even if I were in charge, I’d have to deal with the realities of being the leader of a political party and all the constraints that puts on me. So, being in charge never means being able to do whatever you think is best.
I couldn’t lead the Democratic Party, for example, if my attitude to Israel was that I was just going to defund them because I’m tired of the settlements. My party would override my vetoes and throw me out of office when I sought reelection.
But, what I would be able to do is to put a lot more pressure on our allies in Europe, the Far East, and the Middle East to take more responsibility for policing the world. Like Obama, I would be able to resist pressures to put our troops in every hot zone in the world. Unlike Obama, I would do more to roll back the Intelligence Community and the Surveillance State. I would direct our foreign policy establishment to consider Saudi Arabia’s promotion of sectarian warfare as on a par with Iran’s nuclear program as a threat to world peace.
If we were attacked, I would calm people rather than try to inflame them. If I felt we needed to attack some terrorists, I would do my best to make sure that we got our targets without killing innocents.
But, again, I am not in charge. And attacking Americans or America is a very stupid thing to do because we will overreact and we certainly will not do what you hoped we would do.
When people attack America, they make us worse people who make worse decisions. Never was there a starker election than Obama vs. McCain. Ever. With Obama, we bought a leader who has the right temperament. But it isn’t a typical American temperament, and he still reacts to the pulse of this country, as any president would.
Indeed I did. All editing is selective, by definition. Tell me if my selective editing misrepresents your views. My thought was that it didn’t misrepresent them, but distilled them to a core.
That said, I appreciate your willingness to explain further, and respect the ambivalence and uneasiness you feel in your stance. Freed from the burden of needing to lead a political party or nation, my own simplistic assessment of the situation is, “the last thing the Middle East needs right now is more people calling for the complete eradication of each other.”
Thing here is… What if our allies refused to take more responsibility? No one else seemed to even consider doing something for the Yazidi. What would things look like in Europe had we not been pushing for a way to punish Russian aggression? What if the intelligence community threatened your son if you tried to roll them back?
I guess my point is all the stuff you’d do differently is stuff Obama might well have tried or be trying to do.
What would things look like in Europe had we not been pushing for a way to punish Russian aggression?
It could be the other way around, a consideration?
No. Even if it was actively provoked (something I find debatable) I find it pretty cut and dried that Russia upped the ante on violence and terrorism.
Question. Is there anything you don’t think is a western false flag?
Consider a US sphere of influence. Say Japan. Would you label it US aggression if Russia had spent ten years and $5 billion dollars to accomplish a coup to oust the US supported government and then moved to kick our butts out of our military installations in Japan and we fought back to maintain those installations and support the populations geographically near those installations that did want to be ruled by the coup government in Kiev?
If you have evidence other currently active Russian foreign violence and terrorism please cite that.
What did the people of the country want? You seem to operate under the idea that the sum total of Maidan was a purely US grown operation. He was ousted because he cracked down and the people had gotten sick of him. How’s that different from the people of say, Ferguson throwing out the police chief?
As for your example, if the Japanese were not having their rights violated I would damn well call it aggression and incitement to violence if we were were arming them and sending advisers there.
As for currently active…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17
Or was that also a false flag?
If you’re banking that MH17 was downed by eastern Ukraine rebels or Russia, you’re going to look as gullible as those that believe Saddam had WMD.
btw – the term “false flag” is too mushy for me to use when studying or speculating on what may or may not have happened. So, kindly don’t accuse me of something I don’t do.
Will add this from Paul Craig Roberts:
That story comes off to me as parody.
Fits the facts post-coup better than the nonsense you’re pitching.
Obviously, I think you’re the one that’s peddling nonsense. I don’t place the entirety of the blame on Russia, but we’re just never going to see eye to eye on this.
Actually, you’re only peddling your opinion — what I and many others do here often. However, some of us also bother to read widely, offer facts, and interpretation of events from others with some experience, and often expertise, in the issue. From everything I’ve read, the vast majority of the people living in eastern Urkaine (and the large number that are currently refugees in Russia) fear the Kiev coup government and the affiliated militias supported by a few oligarchs. Their fears aren’t fantasies but based on their real experiences or that of their parents.
WTF excuse is there for the US to be meddling in Ukraine?
A lot of purple prose there and a lot jumps to conclusions. We really don’t know why the info is not forthcoming re: downing of Malaysian flight nor what the info might be. Putting it on the back burner for now might be a way of ratcheting down some of the talk, which imo is a good thing
The US government accused the Russian speaking eastern Ukrainian rebels of shooting down MH17 and strongly suggested that they had assistance from Russia. Yet have failed to supply a shred of concrete evidence. No demand that Kiev release the ATC recordings to reveal why MH17 was directed to a flight path north of what had been used. Russia and the UN requested a cease fire to allow a thorough inspection of the crash site which Kiev refused to do.
Very odd that there is total outrage in this country that the Ferguson PD hasn’t released the incidence report and other evidence in the killing of Michael Brown, but most are okay with nothing about the killing of 298 people.
Not odd at all; race is a central issue to all USAians since inception, the incident and police reaction have been horrifying and as a resutl many of our most important issues are coming to the fore. Re the downing of Malaysian plane, there are many many countries involved pressing for more details about it; some of whom lost citizens, one of whom may lose their national airline. and furthermore the Obama admin has already said our intel knows how it was downed, irrc and do we ppl on the street know that they haven’t shared that intel with some of the principals?; How about letting our public discussion give the attention it deserves to an issue that is absolutely central to all of us while the Malyasian airlines item works its way through the various systems.
Meant to say that the delay in releasing all the information in the Michael Brown killing has rightly made part of the public suspicious that a cover-up is in the works. But you would have it that the delay on MH17 of very basic and easily available information doesn’t mean that a cover-up could be underway and more astonishing that it’s in the best interests of the public that it’s not released.
Would that be the same administration that said they don’t spy on “folks?” Or the one that said they knew the Assad government killed some “folks” with chemical weapons? Or like the previous administration that knew Saddam had WMD — and therefore, no need present real evidence. Like his Daddy’s administration that claimed Saddam had a massive army deployed on the KSA border and hired a PR company that promulgated the Kuwaiti babies being tossed out of incubators? And those are but a few that most USians accepted as facts and I didn’t accept from the get-go. And no, I’m not a “truther” — their fact free assertions stink as well.
no I don’t think for a minute a cover up is underway. there’s a withholding of information for a lot of reasons, maybe some parties would like a coverup, but ultimately the information will come out b/c there are so many parties involved with conflicting interests, plus there is lots of information – that’s why I mention the USA intel claim, – it crashed on the ground, lots of ppl saw it etc. but there are lots of reasons to delay the information coming out. I think you’re not thinking clearly about all this. we should discuss it again in a few months and see where it is.
Nobody, and I mean nobody I knew, that believed there were WMD in Iraq and thought I was nuts for pointing out that “Bush’s case for war” didn’t add up was willing to talk about it later when the evidence was clear. Same with all those other instances that I listed. The delay in releasing the known MH17 information has already allowed the US and EU to impose sanctions on Russia and given Kiev and the militias approval to keep bombarded eastern Ukraine. It’s not okay to go to war, and sanctions are a form of war, based on lies or false assertions. And I’m weary of later use of, “If I knew then what I know now” excuse because that lets jerkwads off the hook for the unnecessary destruction that their thoughtlessness permitted.
I’m using the exact same analytical tools I always use — and it’s been coming up with the same red blinking lights since within a few days of the crash of MH17 as it did in the cited examples and many more. And I’m far from suspicious enough to catch most propaganda, disinformation and/or cover-ups early on. Although the Watergate break-in and Chilean coup smelled instantly of Tricky Dickey and nothing ever convinced me otherwise.
See my diary –
Was Malaysia MH-17 Downed by Su-25 Fighter Planes?.
I’ve added a new post: “Preliminary Report MH-17 Is Ready.”
Prps you saw this already, something by Hunter about one aspect of the Ferguson incident (sounds like they were setting Brown up for a huge fine and a record and it was sop)
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/20/1323286/-Open-thread-for-night-owls-Ferguson-courts-a-chron
ic-violator-of-the-rights-of-poor-residents
Very good Booman!
This is partially what I mean when I speak about the ‘real world’ and how so many here constantly seek unicorn ponies. And how they will always be disappointed in every politician (including Warren if she ran). It’s like they live somewhere else.
I’m not ambivalent at all about the video….. If you take an American who has committed no crime and chop his head off….you die.
This is a very common feeling among Americans. Protest…ok. Get connected to burning and looting in any way…you lose. Fire rockets? You lose. It’s not so much you would be unjustified in burning , looting, or firing rockets…it’s that the average America stops listening. You lose.
That is why there will NEVER be an enduring liberal dynasty in this country, why the conservatives will never go away. Because liberals cannot help them selves, they always say something and do something the average American considers to be completely stupid.
Just read some of the comments in this post.
.
And attacking Americans or America is a very stupid thing to do because we will overreact and we certainly will not do what you hoped we would do.
At the risk of sounding like a simpering coward, it sure seems to me like we did a lot more damage to ourselves in reaction to 9-11 than Al Qaeda could have hoped for in their wildest dreams. Yes, bin Laden is dead, but if it were up to the GOP we wouldn’t even have that much to show for it.
That said, I share your optimism that our current President will come up with a much smarter and more effective response to this killing than probably anyone else that we might have elected.
most of us, including you I’m guessing, opposed the Iraq adventure. one of my colleagues described it succinctly, “the hijackers hijacked the airplanes, Bush/ Cheney hijacked the WTC grief”
and also I agree about our current president; so far he’s managed to keep a lid on the war mongers and profiteers
Boo, I think you are exactly wrong about this: “But, again, I am not in charge. And attacking Americans or America is a very stupid thing to do because we will overreact and we certainly will not do what you hoped we would do.” ISIS absolutely wants us to overreact, just as OBL wanted us to overreact to 9/11 – and Bush obliged.
It’s what we do best.
Unless America is messing with Americans. Ferguson is America
Why won’t you accept that Israeli’s feel the same?
Does ISIS employ a costume designer for their beheading videos? Where did they get an orange tunic and pants?
What happened to the claims that Foley was in a Syrian prison a few months after he went missing in November 2012?
I may be completely wrong, but something about this feels “off” to me.
To be crass about it, Marie, the thing that is “off” is our countryman’s head. Do you care?
While my question my have sounded flip, it was serious. Are orange tunics and pants standard issue prison garb in the ME or anywhere else? I know that orange jumpsuits have been used in the US but they aren’t standard (and are being phased out in some areas where they have been used) or even Guantanamo. This video has production values that works for Americans based on Hollywood versions of what prisoners and scary terrorists wear.
Were you ready to bomb Pakistan over the beheading of Daniel Pearl?
they’re now self supporting due to all they’ve captured. if you’re looking for an angle re: releasing a video w high production values geared to the USA audience, it could be pressure to engage troops on the ground. ISIS also has an interest in that, us overextending ourselves and disrupting regional alliances against them via renewed troop presence
With ISIS reportedly doing very well in taking over large swaths of Iraq, what do they have to gain from the redeployment if US troops with their newer and better weapons to Iraq to crush ISIS? We’re not talking about the ideological OBL stuck in Afghanistan with no means to directly confront and supplant the monarchy in KSA.
I’m not suggesting that this particular event is a “wag the dog” (although that is always possible), but there is no shortage of powers/interest groups that could benefit. The visceral response of Americans to a brutal slaying of one of their own is fairly predictable. Between the always ready to display US military and the hand-wringing “we must do something” segments, there’s always a solid majority to “send in the Marines.”
ISIS won’t be able to hold the territory they’ve taken over; an alliance against them from the region will be/ is strong and also will remake the politics of the region (Juan Cole has written about this). if they can induce American troops to return and try to boss around the operation against ISIS they can distract the discontented citizens (i.e. those who abhor what they are doing to them) with a shiny object that alludes to “occupying force”
All the “blame america-ism” in this thread implies that USA is the only actor in the world, except for maybe a few USA enemies. that is a) wrong b) a simplistic reading of a very complex multicultural world. not everything is a false flag operation although, of course, some things are
Not much doubt. What entities would be in that regional alliance? Damascus, Tehran, and the Shia government in Baghdad? And the Kurds if their price is met?
How would that go down in KSA, Qatar, and Israel?
a lot of ppl will be crying in their soup. otoh, a lot of ppl are going to find their situations improved. you are suggesting someone else carried out the beheading? who? is there anything about ISIS that would lead you to think they wouldn’t do this? as far as production values go, didn’t you read about ISIS’ finances?
Are you suggesting that ISIS is a monolithic operation without factions or rogues? I’m not questioning that some element that claims ties to ISIS perpetrated the murder of Foley (although that may only mean that I’m not skeptical enough). It’s not as if there haven’t been US soldier committing dastardly killings in Afghanistan and Iraq in ways in that don’t challenge our western culturally acceptable forms of killing. Shoot first and cut off body parts later.
The Hitler/Nazis du jour are always alleged to have plenty of money, are highly sophisticated in propaganda, and are savage in their terrorism. And the US must act to remove them from whatever stage they’ve managed to get on.
How many sequels do you have to watch/read about before you begin to question the standard narrative?
well, I take it from your reply you didn’t read about how ISIS finances its operations. it’s worth a read, well covered around the time of Mosul.
I don’t know why you are veering off my question – you’re saying production values suggest ISIS didn’t commit the murder, then if not, perhaps rogue ISISians? and they would be more in touch with what would motivate a USA audience? (who, if they went rogue form ISIS probably won’t last long, in fact if they went rogue they’re probably already gone.)
You mean this — How an arrest in Iraq revealed Isis’s $2bn jihadist network. Yes, I was aware of that. Conveniently, from US official sources, no monies from KSA, Qatar, etc.
To put that in some sort of perspective, the US “burn rate” in Iraq ranged from $4 to $12 billion/month.
I’m from Missouri, Jesse James territory. One thing I learned you can damn well hold out for a long, long time.
The IS do have backing from the inhabitants of the parts they are holding, they have a large army of ‘drugged’ but well trained fighters willing to bring a mission to its end. Plenty of tales [rape and sexual violence] from the last two years in Syria, they are the best equipped group. IS conquered a path from Aleppo, Raqqa and Anbar province followed by Mosul, a city of a million, they have in possession two billion dollars and all the equipment the US supplied the Iraqi Army as they fled.
Saddam’s general Izzat Ibrahim al Duri has military command over the Baathist forces in support of ISIS terror in Iraq. Al Duri was #6 in the Pentagon deck of cards as US forces invaded Mesopotamia.
Once IS has been established in a large city, it will take a long time of urban warfare to flush them out with Fallujah as prime example.
Uh oh, from WAPO
Suggests that I was correct in noting that the imagery was western.
Others are now noticing what the same thing:
Minor correction — if one looks at earlier photos of Foley, his face was thin and chiseled before his capture. It’s much fuller in the alleged ISIS video.
The intelligence community was wrong about something in the middle East. Surprise!
Actually, Marie, I get the same feeling of hinkiness. See my above post.
See this from WAPO: Accent of James Foley’s executioner prompts a reckoning in Britain
We murder and maim hundreds of thousands. Then they murder and maim in return. And in return we do more of the same. Over and over and over again.
Where does this cycle end?
Quotes from Booman:
Riiiiight…
Where does this cycle end?
Not with Booman, apparently.
So it goes.
Next up?
Bet on it.
And Booman will toe the line.
Bet on that as well.
Watch.
Where will it end?
Three bet.
Nice, Booman.
Beat your chest against a stone wall.
Nice.
AG
you live here, right?
You’ve met us?
Yes, I live here. I have done so as a fairly conscious adult for 50+ years. All I have seen is mistake after mistake after mistake after mistake.
Down and down and down and down even further.
From JFK/Lee Harvey Oswald/Jack Ruby/Vietnam/Henry Kissinger/Lt. Calley right on through Bush II/DickCheney/Abu Ghraib/Fallujah and the current idiocy.
Why do you ask?
Can you tell me when it will end?
I doubt it.
You boast about it.
WTFU.
AG
I’m perfectly ok with the idea of using drone strikes or other forms of targeted killing to take out the people suspected of being his tormenters, even if some of them somehow turn out to be American citizens, without making any effort to capture them and bring them in for a trial.
We’ve played a large part in breaking this part of the world. There is no ending the cycle. I think some live in this fantasy world where we can isolate ourselves from the consequences of our actions which will persist for decades yet.
ISIS is a death cult. Any American that joins their ranks has forsaken life.
As opposed to a “Get Out Of Jail Free” card in Monopoly, this seems to be more a “Get Into Iraq Again” card. I know everything can’t be a false flag conspiracy, but boy did this happen at the right time for justifying an intervention.
Considering that ISIS sprang out of the loins of US’s war against Assad, these jihadis, some of whom very well could have been trained by our own military and CIA, and whose bills were taken care of by our great friends in the House of Saud, the Kuwaiti royal family and whoever’s slinging the cash in Qatar, I wonder if our bombing of ISIS reveals a fracture between the US and the Gulf gangsters. Maybe just an adjustment. Beat them back away from the Kurds and they can have their caliphate from thereabouts to the suburbs of Damascus.
But yeah, sure, the ISIS guys have earned their status of being the worst bad guys of the moment, so let’s bomb ’em.
ISIS is the result of our destruction of the social and political life of the Sunnis in Iraq. Remember Fallujah…how many Sunni Iraqis did we kill because they killed some Americans? At some point we got to say ‘My Bad’ and walk away.
It doesn’t seem like ISIS is particularly concerned with violence aimed in their direction. Having arisen, at least in part, from prior American military actions, why would they be?
Was there a motive behind this execution beyond ISIS merely thumbing their nose at us? They surely don’t expect us to sit idly by and do nothing, so it raises the question as to whether they’re hoping to provoke some particular reaction.
I’m not saying we shouldn’t react, just wondering out loud about what our best and worst options are here.
America’s dependence on ME oil and its no-questions-asked policy toward Israel created the conditions that enabled ISIS to come into being. Every one of our government’s actions beginning with the 1948 recognition of Israel has only made things worse. Let Israel fend for itself and then either launch a Manhattan Project for energy independence or keep shoveling money at people who have been massacring and mutilating each other for fourteen hundred years in the name of religion.
We’ll do neither of those things. Instead America will once again try to put out today’s fire while inadvertently igniting the next one. Me? I’m glad I’m old; I’ve seen this freakshow too many times already.
The measured tone of Foley’s mom’s statement was a powerful rebuke to a political group that thinks it can win through terror.
They will be defeated by the people who have to live under their rule. And it will likely be sooner than later. Unless they are more competent at actual governing than they have shown themselves to be so far.
ISIS has drawn from brutal men brutalized by brutal regimes (not a few supported by the US). Without external support and arms they fail. The US handily positioned a bunch of arms for them to capture at Mosul.
The fact of this video (which likely is intended to get the US to double down on stupid and tyrannical war-on-terror homeland security) and the execution of James Foley to me signal the fact that US actions so far in Iraq are causing ISIS troops to slow their momentum.
If the US does not panic and put Americans under draconian surveillance and inspection, which given the authoritarian figures involved, would metastisize the problems that ordinary people of Ferguson are having, then it is likely that there will be enough patience to allow the locals in the Middle East to deal with ISIS in their own ways.
What the US must do is degrade the equipment that ISIS captured that would give them an advantage over the other Iraqi and Kurdish armies and militias.
And wait for Sunnis to tire of rule by terror. (As some already have.)
The turning point in my estimation will come when ISIS is kicked out of Mosul by the some 1 million residents there.
Once more, a voice of calm and sanity amid the calls for vengeance. ISIS is a monster largely of our government’s own creation, but is one that will probably quickly starve itself out.
I agree that we should focus on degrading or capturing US military equipment that fell into their hands, but I think this part of your statement is mistaken. I wouldn’t be surprised if Heraclius and Yazdegerd were told that in AD 635.
Not in a logical manner is an understatement … most devastating was the death of Daniel Pearl on Feb 1, 2002 in Pakistan.
ISIS was created in March 2003.
ISIS had a change to grow in strength in Syria [thank you Turkey, NATO under US leadership]
ISIS matured by returning to Anbar province, the Sunni triangle, joining forces with Baathist remnants.
The United States has created and nurtured a monster, the forces of OBL’s Al Qaeda couldn’t have been more satisfied. A conclusion: Our strength is also our weakness. The military option should be at last resort, as it’s all consuming and devastating. Hate and fear burns the energy inside people and causes erratic decisionmaking. In The Hague there are demonstrations pro- and contra ISIS. Thank you right wing populist Geert Wilders, riding high on funds from an Islamophobe organization in the U.S. Thank you George ‘Fascist’ Bush, it must be in the family genes.
How the western world reacted to the illegal invasion of Iraq can be indicated by nations with large interests in the Seven Sisters [UK – The Netherlands] or the former satellite states of the Soviet bloc [Poland, Litouwen, Georgia]. Key nations in oil resources or the transport pipelines from the Caspian Sea basin: Iraq, Libya, Syria, Kurdish north Iraq, Georgia and Ukraine.
○ How ISIS Was Nurtured In Syria and Matured in Iraq
○ Don’t Call Them Al Qaeda, Terror Coming from ISIS (aka AQI, IS)
Saddam’s general Izzat Ibrahim al Duri has military command over the Baathist forces in support of ISIS terror in Iraq. Al Duri was #6 in the Pentagon deck of cards as US forces invaded Mesopotamia.
○ DoD Deck of Cards Helps Troops Identify Regime’s Most Wanted – April 2003
9/11 was a provocation, and ir was the way we reacted to 9/11 that helped create and inspire, among many other horrors, ISIS.
But don’t get me wrong, they richly deserve to be annihilated. While it is true that they feed off Sunni discontent, not even the Sunnis, once they get to know them, want them running things.
I was going to say something along the same lines as you, but now I don’t have to. Plus, you know a lot more about it. Thanks for this.
Best policy during the Iraq campaign was to establish and fund the Awakening Councils, hiring young men from the Sunni population as sort of protecting their homeland, under close cooperation with tribal leaders. That stopped the brutal insurgency of bombings [an AQ trademark, see Syria], much more than McCain’s US Army surge ever did.
The democratically elected Malaki defunded these groups, the rest is history.
The Iraq War and the ethnic cleansing of Kirkuk and Mosul, probably a least known phenomena and why ISIS is laying siege to these cities first bedore heading to Baghdad or Jordan.
PS Perhaps just a little bit more, so much yet to learn …
For better or worse, this is indeed who we are…
It’s pointless to debate someone out for revenge. Let the looting begin… Wake me up when you get tired of fighting, bleeding, and dying.
What kind of pablum is this to spout? Strong words but every nation in history goes down in flames w/ this kind of “strategery”
Isis is just going to morph to something more horrifying. And the people you want to kill,Booman? Good luck in trying to explain to family when you kill an innocent confused kid who joined ISIS at 13. Good luck w/ all of that.
Isis is just going to become something else. The question is, do we want that? We can’t AFFORD it.
Sorry for Foley family loss, but killing some terrorists isn’t going to bring back any beheaded americans. Now if ISIS attacks on American soil, that is a different story. You can’t hold back the dogs of war, all we can do is wait and see if Isis does plan to attack US ground.
Any type of terrorist or pseudo terrorist attack in the US will be directly or indirectly tied to ISIS. At this point it hardly matters whether its a lone wolf type of attack or whether ISIS decides to attack US targets. We should just assume that they are actively plotting such attacks.
This might not be popular but I’m wondering if our response in the event of a large scale domestic attack shouldn’t be full disinvestment and disengagement from the Middle East/N. Africa. Perhaps good for us and good for them. I say that as the son of immigrants. This is not a good solution but it’s a non-military one.
Lastly, there’s no such thing as an innocent confused kid who joins ISIS at 13 just as there’s no innocence for an American who gets a waiver with parental permission to join the military at 17.
They’re indeed unfortunate to have been corrupted and deprived of innocence, values, and morals but they can still carry and fire a rifle and don suicide vests. Did you see the images of the Australian jihadist who had his kids pose with severed heads? That is indoctrination from an early age.
Haven’t they already said they would attack us here? Or do you mean to say threats don’t count.? Fella named chamberlain thought threats didn’t matter too.