If you’re looking for information on the upcoming NFL draft, there are few places better than DraftTek. Currently, they have the Tennessee Titans, who own the second pick in the first round, taking Florida quarterback and former national champion and Heisman Trophy winner Jameis Winston. Here’s their rationale (emphasis mine):
It’s still early in the off-season process, so it’s tough to see if Tennessee believes Zach Mettenberger is the quarterback of the future, or if the team will look in another direction, especially since they are sitting in the top two picks, guaranteeing either Mariota or Winston. Winston has impressed everyone on the field since he completed his first 11 career passes and tore apart the Pittsburgh defense. He has good pocket presence, a strong arm, and most important, the ability to lead receivers and “throw them open.” The NFL will not give great passing lanes, but Winston has shown he can complete passes in tight spaces. It’s a hard skillset to pass on, and if he can do well in interviews, Winston’s “character concerns” will be an afterthought.
Now, when NFL draft prognosticators talk about “character concerns,” they can mean almost anything. They do not usually mean credible allegations of rape. Maybe the prospect smoked weed. Maybe they were in an altercation in a bar. Maybe they were suspended for a few games for unspecified violations of team rules. Perhaps they assaulted their girlfriend. “Character concerns” run a gamut from the concerning to the alarming to the “no way in hell are we drafting this guy.”
Winston does have some of the more garden-variety types of character concerns. He was once handcuffed and released because he was using a BB gun to shoot squirrels near the Florida State campus. In another incident, the police were called because he was stealing soda at a Burger King. He was arrested for shoplifting crab legs at a grocery store, which earned him a suspension from the baseball team until he completed his community service. And then he was suspended for one football game for standing on a table in the student union and yelling misogynistic vulgarities.
These are the kinds of “character concerns” that frequently cause an athlete to get picked lower in the draft than their talent level would otherwise warrant. But rape is the kind of allegation that can prevent a player from being drafted at all. Or, if they are drafted, this can happen:
It was the second day of the 1996 NFL draft. [Christian] Peter’s phone rang. Bill Parcells, then coach of the New England Patriots, was calling to say the team had picked him in the fifth round and Peter should report to the team’s headquarters in a few days for rookie camp.
“Yes, sir,” Peter said he replied. “I won’t let you down.”
Within 48 hours, Peter got another call from the Patriots, suddenly under fire from women’s groups and others for selecting a player with such a violent history. Peter was being released before he had even suited up.
Almost 20 years later, he calls it the worst day of his life.
Don’t feel badly for Christian Peter. When he was a star football player at the University of Nebraska, “he was arrested eight times, convicted four times and accused of assaulting four women.” And he managed to catch on in the NFL, spending a few seasons (to my chagrin) playing for the New York Giants. In the aftermath of the Ray Rice Incident, the NFL consulted Mr. Peter on how to keep their players from beating the shit out of women.
Kathy Redmond, who accused Peter of raping her twice at Nebraska, was incensed that the NFL looked to Peter for insight. She says the decision “shuns the victims.” Natalie Tysdal, whom Peter was convicted of sexually assaulting while at the school, says she was confused.
It’s true that things are better than they were twenty years ago, and it’s also true that the NFL is trying to make things even better, but there’s a broader cultural problem that’s demonstrated by how the rape allegations against Jameis Winston are just brushed aside by the draft analysts. Here are a couple more examples:
Walter Football has Winston going first overall, to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers:
It’s not a matter of what position Tampa addresses, but rather which quarterback it takes. It’s obviously between Marcus Mariota [of Oregon] and Jameis Winston, and I considered the former the favorite until recently. However, Charlie Campbell reported that the Buccaneers currently prefer Jameis Winston over Marcus Mariota.
I think they’re crazy, but the Buccaneers apparently aren’t worried about Winston going nuts in Ybor or at Mons Venus. The latter would have to rename itself Mons Jameis after Winston puts the owners’ kids through college.
At least he expresses some concern about the wisdom, if not the morality, of picking Winston with the first overall draft pick.
Here’s Bleacher Report, which has Winston going as the 6th overall pick to the New York Jets:
Jameis Winston may not need the big stage of the Big Apple, but the Big Apple needs Jameis Winston. Rather, the Jets need him, as they look to move on from the short-lived Geno Smith era and pump some life into a lifeless offense that certainly has potential.
The Big Apple “needs” this guy? Here the “character concerns” are so submerged that you could be forgiven for thinking Winston doesn’t “need” the big stage of New York City because he’s shy or something.
Here’s what Winston is accused of doing:
[Erica] Kinsman says the man then bought her a shot, and after she took it, she started to become very woozy. She faintly remembers being taken in a cab to an apartment, and the next thing she knew, the man was on top of her, engaging in vaginal intercourse with her. She says she begged and pleaded for him to stop, and then saw the man’s roommate enter the bedroom and tell his friend, “Stop… What are you doing?”
Kinsman says that the man ignored the roommate’s pleas, and took her to the bathroom, which could be locked from the inside. There, he pinned her head against the tiled floor with his hand, and continued to rape her. When he finished, the man allegedly said, “You can leave now.”
She later identified him because they were taking the same class together. Eventually, after being ignored for a long time, she succeeded in proving that the semen collected on the night of the rape belonged to Winston. Still, he wasn’t prosecuted.
Kinsman’s case finally gained some traction in November 2013, when it was reported that DNA provided by Winston matched a DNA sample taken from her underwear on the night of the alleged assault. The odds of the DNA belonging to someone other than Winston were 1 in 2.2 trillion. She couldn’t fathom why it took 11 months for the case to make its way to local prosecutors.
But on December 5, 2013, State Attorney Willie Meggs announced that the case was over, and no charged would be filed against Winston.
They would have had a stronger case to take to court if the crime had been rigorously investigated when it was reported, but this piece isn’t about the investigation or Winston’s ultimate “legal” guilt or innocence.
This guy is going to be the face of some NFL franchise in a few months. He may even be the first player drafted, making him the face of the entire league for a few days. And the fact that there is a very credible allegation that he drugged a woman in a bar and then raped her in his dorm room is basically something that NFL analysts are too polite to mention.
It’s not all on the league officials to protect the integrity of the game. How about the rest of us call things what they are? What this guy seems to have done is a lot worse than what Ray Rice did. Ray Rice knocked his girlfriend unconscious in a casino elevator. Can we talk in the same plain language about what Jameis Winston did?
“Winning isn’t everything; it’s the only thing.” So spake their patron saint; so shall it ever be.
The NFL respects women as much as Republicans lawmakers do, which is to say not at all.
Republican lawmakers think the occasional nice word will make us forget about governor ultrasound and forced pregnancy and everything else they do to control women.
The NFL thinks that their ad campaign will make us forget all the rapes and abuses and the culture of violence against women that is at the core of the NFL.
Good luck with that.
I can’t wait to read Dave Zirin’s column on this, whenever it comes out. I can’t imagine him letting this go by without comment.
(Full disclosure: I write for Draftek, luckily not for the Bucs, Titans or Jets.)
The Winston situation really is a bizarre sociology experiment. The same sort of yahoos who thought Trayvon Martin deserved death for wearing a hoodie have cheered wildly for FSU and Winston. I’ve found that most non-FSU fans have come to hate the school for the way the whole saga played out.
The team that drafts Winston is really playing with fire. Recent allegations about Johnny Manziel’s immaturity could set back Cleveland (again) as they struggle to find someone to be their QB. If Winston steps out of line – and his past behavior suggests that’s inevitable – then Roger Goodell will have no choice but to lower the boom on him.
In the post-Ray Rice NFL, will a team expend a precious first round pick on a guy like Winston? I honestly don’t know.
He could go first overall or he could drop to the second round.
I find it hard to believe that you follow the draft closely enough to write about it professionally or quasi-professionally if you are going to state that Winston could fall into the second round. The chance of that happening is pretty much nil, unless virtually all the draft watchers and all the rumors are wrong. He might even be the very first person chosen.
He’s almost undoubtedly going to be the first player chosen. He’s the best QB prospect since Luck, at the very least, and arguably since Peyton. Anybody who tells you otherwise either has no idea how to evaluate QBs or is chasing clicks (probably the latter in this case). Lovie Smith’s not stupid. There are really only two QBs worth discussing in this draft, and he needs one of them. Given that the evidence is pretty strong that Mariota is basically Griffin (with a weaker arm but hopefully a better brain), it’s tough to see him passing on Winston.
The only way he’s falling is if NFL teams’ investigations uncover skeletons in Winston’s closet we don’t know about. Not unfathomable, but not likely given that FSU is covered to such an insane degree in the press, and the Tallahassee beat has some seriously good reporters on it. If those skeletons were there, they’d likely be out already.
Winston might be the best QB prospect since Andrew Luck. Might be. But that’s a pretty mediocre list: EJ Manuel, Geno Smith, Mike Glennon, Blake Bortles, Johnny Manziel, Teddy Bridgewater, Derek Carr… All of the QBs since 2012 have had major question marks.
So does Winston. Will he get suspended? Has he improved his judgment off the field? Because the NFL is taking body blow after body blow for the behavior of some of its players.
The talent is undeniable, but Michael Vick and Ryan Leaf had great talent, too. I could see Lovie Smith going for a safer option in Mariota and hope he can create a defense to protect the deficiencies in his QB, like Seattle has done.
I’m sorry, but I have to ask: Do you actually watch football?
The fact that you’ve just suggested Mariota is the safer option — there’s no evidence he can run a pro-style system — and compared him with Russell Wilson — the two have very different strengths and have come from quite different backgrounds on the field — suggests to me you don’t.
And Bortles, Carr and Bridgewater were fairly respectable as rookies. Note that I said he was the best prospect since Luck at the very least and then went on to say he might be the best since Manning.
Have you watched the news in the last 12 months? Mariota is “safer” because he’s not going to get arrested or suspended.
Winston could come in and be elite from day one or he could do something incredibly stupid and wind up on the “Commissioner’s Exempt List.”
Winston’s pattern of immaturity – beyond the rape allegations – remind me of Manziel. That won’t end well in Cleveland.
No one wants to draft Ryan Leaf.
I live in Tallahassee. So, yeah, I’m vaguely familiar with the news.
As far as I’m aware, Winston’s never been arrested. So I’m not sure why one would expect he would be post-draft. Contrary to what the NYTs of the world have you believe, FSU players do get arrested here and kicked out of school. Ask Greg Dent, Greg Reid, etc.
I’m fully aware of why you think Mariota is safer. I’m telling you that you think that because you don’t know what you’re talking about, either with regard to Winston’s off-the-field issues or with evaluating QBs.
And, as with your ludicrous Mariota-Wilson comparison, your Manziel-Leaf-Winston comparison backs up my suspicion.
He also had some minor run ins with the law and isn’t nearly as pro ready as Winston is. By contrast, Mariota is a much better runner.
They both should go very high.
Put another way: Are Jason Licht and Lovie Smith going to entrust their careers to Jameis Winston’s off field judgment? I have no idea, but that’s the wager they will be making.
I’m not at all saying Mariota is the BETTER QB. I’m saying he is less likely to blow up in your face and cost you your job.
And that’s why you write for a website rather than doing actual scouting.
No doubt. And I’ve engaged your arguments respectfully as I can, and you’ve insulted me throughout this discourse. Well done, you’ve done the Internet and FSU proud.
Jameis Winston is a better QB than Marcus Mariota. I have never argued differently. As things stand now, he won’t possibly fall past the Jets at #6. But there is a pattern of really troubling judgment off the field, even aside from the rape allegations. And if you’re Tampa or Tennessee, you have to ask yourself if he’s truly grown up. Simply watching tape won’t tell you the answer to that question. If, in the draft process, more incidents come to light, if he gets into a fight in a bar, if someone posts a selfie with Winston throwing up drunk…if any of that happens, that will hurt his draft stock.
Is Jamies Winston mature enough to be the savior of my franchise? That’s what all those GMs in the top 7 picks (aside maybe from Jax and Oakland) have to ask themselves. (Manziel and Leaf were never arrested, either. It’s not about the arrests. It’s about the judgment.)
No, you really haven’t. You think you have, and I can understand why you think you have, but you haven’t. You’ve put stock in a bullshit media narrative. And, being a Tallahassee resident and an FSU grad, I really have no tolerance for bullshit at this point, having watched my school, my team, and my home get dragged through the mud for the last year and a half. I’m pretty fucking sick of people talking about vague “character issues” that nobody would give a rat’s ass about were if not for the rape allegation.
No one remembers Cam Newton and the laptop at UF or Peyton Manning and the reporter, so why does anybody give a damn about Winston having a hookup — unheard of in college, of course — at Publix with a guy in the seafood section? Or, to make it more obvious, about him shouting the meme in the student union? As I said above, nobody would give a flying fuck but for the rape allegation.
I have two complaints with you here. The first is your adherence to the narrative, which, as I said, I have no tolerance for. Folks here in Tallahassee and across the FSU alumni base have put up with a lot of shit over the last year and a half. That kid was accused of rape, our police force and school administration were ridiculously accused of covering up for it, and our alumni (myself included) are routinely accused of being rape apologists because we had the audacity to note for buffoons of Booman’s ilk that the evidence was garbage.
So that’s the first bit. The second bit is that the moment I find somebody writes draft projections, my assumption is immediately that the person in question is an idiot who buys into media narratives as above and makes patently-absurd comparisons between players based on vague off-the-field “character” issues (eg, your Manziel-Winston comparison) or comparisons based on playing style for no reason other than (say) that they both occasionally run the read option and are vaguely-black (eg, your Wilson-Mariota comparison). They typically engage in this because such talk generates clicks by getting the attention of people who don’t know anything but enjoy engaging in seemingly-good-but-largely-stupid comparisons and assorted moralizing asshattery. For the most part, such “draft experts” are the sports-equivalent of the Villagers on cable news in the political arena.
So I don’t find you terribly respectful or respectable. Naïve? Sure. Respectful? Nope.
People did care about Newton’s character issues. In the end Carolina decided that they didn’t matter. Tampa could make the same decision. Media narratives can take on a life of their own. You’re slagging me for pointing out that they exist.
You’ve made your standards of objectivity completely clear.
I’m an idiot for assuming the media narrative is right. And you’re smart for assuming everyone who writes about the draft is an idiot.
My assumptions make me stupid, your assumptions make you a genius. I would only note that I have no particular dog in this fight. You do. You’ve said you have “no tolerance” of people who think that with all this smoke, there might be fire. Whose judgment is clouded?
You’re making personal attacks and being generally aggressive and vicious to people who are arguing with you. That’s not cool.
Sorry, Manziel was arrested. My bad.
From CBS Sports:
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/nfl-draft-scout/24719411/nfl-draft-the-curious-case-of-jameis-win
ston
When the Winston shouting incident became public Tuesday, I texted an NFL scout and told him about it, asking his feedback. He didn’t believe me, saying it must have been a “made up Tweeter rumor,” because there was “no way he is that dumb.” A few hours later, Florida State announced Winston would sit out the first half and the scout sent me a text that read, “That’s the one and only time I’ll let JW make me feel naive.”
Then late Friday night, Florida State upped the suspension to the entire Clemson game. Unprompted, I received another text from that same scout: “I can’t wait to ask Jameis for his 2014 Clemson game tape …”
Winston has apologized for his actions time and time again, but mistakes keep piling up. Can anyone believe what he says?
Anticipating Winston-Manziel comparisons likely to be thrown out there, I asked the scout if he saw any correlation regarding their off-field transgressions and NFL projection. He responded with an emphatic “no,” because Winston’s issues were “much more troubling and serious.”
The scout said Newton was a better comparison, but even that wasn’t very accurate. I asked him if he would drop Winston down his team’s draft board if it were up to him and told me that this isn’t a “drop him down draft boards” issue, but rather “should he be on our draft board” issue. That makes sense. Several teams will decide Winston isn’t a fit for their culture while others will be more tolerant and willing to roll the dice on his immense talent.
There’s the bb gun incident, the crab leg incident, and the internet meme incident.
The last one is a non story without the rape accusation.
There hasn’t been anything for a while so nothing is “piling on.”
NFL teams will interview him about these things. They will interview everybody under the sun who knows him, too. They will all speak of him in glowing terms, because his teammates and coaches LOVE him. That was never true with Manziel.
Winston’s going high. How good a pro he becomes is another discussion.
Greg Hardy fell to the 6th. Justin Houston fell to the 3rd. I would not be shocked to find out there is more to Winston’s past than what we know.
If a team uses a top-10 pick on Winston and he either flakes out like Manziel or gets suspended like Adrian Peterson or Ray Rice or Greg Hardy…What good is his talent?
I agree that it’s unlikely that Winston falls that far, but I don’t think it’s impossible. And I said he could go first overall. I’m saying neither would surprise me.
I think the correct way of putting it is “alleged rapist.” Winston’s assault accusation has come before three investigative units: the Tallahassee Police Department, the Florida State Attorney’s Office, and the Florida State University’s Code of Conduct panel – led by a former Supreme Court Justice. The TPD and the SAO could not collect enough credible evidence to bring charges. The FSU COC findings were such that they did not meet the threshold of 51% believability to show conduct violations. Much has been said about the TPD giving football players a lot of slack. This story line is debunked by the many instances when in fact they have been overly harsh in the past. In Winston’s case, errors were made. But a rape kit and toxicology exam were made within a few hours of the accuser’s claim. She was found to not have been drugged or drunk, and bruises were not consistent with her claim of having been held down. The accuser’s story changed multiple times. First she attended a party at which she was hit on the head and woke up being raped. There was no head injury found. Then the story about the events at the bar had several elements that were inconsistent with the testimony of her friends. She deleted texts and other social media that potentially would have been exculpatory. Winston’s case has been a high profile story, and many have come to conclusions without reading the actual evidence. This findings by the TPD and SAO is available to all. Those journalists who have taken the time to read the 200 some odd pages have found that the case against Winston very thin to say the least. Our justice system is based upon the concept of innocent until proven guilty. Folks are entitled to form their own judgements, but when three professional criminal bodies look at the actual evidence and don’t bring charges, maybe it’s time to rethink it.
It’s pointless to try to convince people they’ve had this story wrong the whole time. The narrative has been set, evidence be damned. The usual response will be, “I read the NYT report, so I don’t need to read the SAO report.”
So much for reality-based.
I’ll read anything you provide.
Sure, [here ya go espn.go.com/pdf/2013/1206/winston-inv1.pdf]. That’s Meggs’s report.
You seem to be using testimony by someone who didn’t interview her until a year after the alleged incident to refute the claim that she changed her story repeatedly in the aftermath of the incident.
Are you incapable of admitting that your initial impressions of this incident may have been wrong? That the precious NYT may have mischaracterized things? Don’t you attack conservatives all the time for similar behavior?
My source wasn’t the NYT’s. I cited that article in a comment but didn’t use it for the piece.
I’ve read the relevant material. She was raped. Her claims are completely credible and her behavior can only be explained by suffering from a very traumatic experience.
What you’ve offered against her amounts to quibbling about why she had a sketchy memory of events even on the evening of the encounter.
A tremendous amount is made of the fact that she supposedly thought she might have been hit in the head and knocked out, or that she was drinking but apparently not much or that she thought she might have been drugged but the toxicology didn’t show that. Whatever the cause, it’s obvious that she was extremely traumatized and that she wasn’t clear-minded.
When she made these claims, she didn’t know who he was.
Let’s look at Dad:
Dad didn’t know who the assailant was. All he knew was that his daughter was in the hospital and then so upset that she was puking after her release.
Why don’t you go ring his doorbell and cop your attitude with him about how his daughter kept changing her story?
Does this sound like a victim who was faking her attack and was not either drunk, drugged, or simply in shock?
You give me an article where the author attempts to interpret bruise patterns to exonerate a star athlete in the face of the obvious fact that he had sex with this woman, knew he had been accused of rape and didn’t come clean about the encounter or offer a DNA sample for almost a year. Then the DNA corroborated her account.
I’ll leave you with this:
Go ahead and defend that, if you feel so compelled.
In absence of any physical trauma, toxicology, or rape kit/SANE indices, how do you explain the accuser’s account of being attacked in the manner she describes in her testimony? Nothing, absolutely nothing supports her version of events.
The only thing in this entire story that makes sense is the failed attempts by Chris Casher to join in and his failed attempt to videotape the tryst. Maybe things went faster than she wanted and she felt ashamed and embarrassed…assaulted even. Who the hell wants a video of them potentially hitting the web or at the least being shared by a bunch of football players?
Flip this around a bit. Why does everyone believe the accuser but ignores the testimony of the actual witnesses to the event? Chris Casher and Ronald Darby are simply thought of as liars or protecting their teammate yet Casher himself actually puts himself in a position for further punishment by admitting under oath he barged in and taped the event (he was put under probation by FSU). Why are those two vilified for having a lawyer yet the accuser’s witnesses are giving a free pass for consulting with an attorney prior to giving statements to legal authorities?
…who he was when she accused him of rape. Seriously, he said that.
We’ve made our point.
Booman’s revealed his true colors.
Time to move on.
You’re wasting your time engaging Boo’s toolbaggery.
She’s given a pass for the attorney because people are idiots. Every major college football program in the country knows players are subject to this sort of idiocy and instructs their players to call a lawyer when stuff goes south. Rightly so. Not calling a lawyer is how innocent people wind up in prison.
Look, the physical evidence is what it is. Winston, Casher and Darby’s testimony matches up pretty much precisely with that evidence. Her own friends implicitly stated they didn’t believe her, noting her demeanor at Potbelly’s and telling her “You can go” when she received the text from Winston to come outside to the cab.
You know this. It’s a fact. Okay…
You should simply have admitted when everyone started piling on that you didn’t know that much about the story and left it at that.
But you obviously aren’t that kind of person. You’re just as bad as the dogmatic conservatives you are always bashing.
I have lost so much respect for you, not because of the original post but because of how you have handled yourself subsequently.
On your first point:
Boo,
Why don’t you provide the testimony from Investigator Newlin that is on pages 175 & 176 which indicates the lawyer for the accused, Patricia Carroll met with both Witness 4 (Monique Kessler) and Witness 5 (Marcus Jordan) prior to their agreement to be interviewed by the SAO? Why does a “victim’s” lawyer need to coach up witnesses?
Why didn’t you provide the testimony on pages 178 & 179 in which Witness 4 (Monique Kessler) describes the events inside the bar which do not match up with the accuser’s testimony? You know, the part where the accuser is not drunk, receives a text asking her to go outside, seeks permission from her friends to leave, and then is out the door in seconds? Care to explain how that is being forced to leave?
Why didn’t you provide the testimony on pages 182 through 184 in which the SAO identifies a second set of DNA in the crotch of the accuser’s pants and is forced to find out who it belonged to because the accuser refused to identify the individual (it was her boyfriend)? That the accuser’s lawyer, Patricia Carroll said those clothes were bought AFTER the alleged assault and would not include the DNA of already ID’d boyfriend? Or that the same lawyer, Patricia Carroll then tried to say the accuser’s pants were borrowed by Witness 4 (Monique Kessler) and the DNA came from whatever sexual activity she was involved in? Keep in mind, Witness 4 (Monique Kessler) is 5’9″ and the accuser is 5’3″.
I know why you didn’t, because you didn’t read it. You read the VICE article and are just quoting what they wrote without providing context to the rest of the proceedings. Read what you posted again…specifically question #5. How can someone go from not remembering how they got into a cab in one investigation (TPD & SAO), to suddenly remembering that they were forced out of the bar and into a cab in another (CoC)? It’s just another example of the changing of details within this story and is a prime example of why no charges have ever been filed.
Correct. The bit about being hit on the head came from her friend who made the initial call to the police.
She never “specifically” (probably a foolish word to use on her part) said she was drugged — okay? I think the “I was fine and then given a drink by a strange guy and lost consciousness” covers that pretty well.
Couldn’t remember being brought to the cab, but deleted the text telling her to go outside and join them before handing the phone over to the cops.
The rest are very pointed questions that obfuscate the obvious points that should be addressed on cross.
Anything else ya got?
I work with lawyers all the time much smarter than you, Boo. You’re not kidding me.
So did you read the SAO’s report and the physical evidence therein or not, Boo?
…in this thread.
What exactly was credible about the allegations, Boo?
The allegation that she was hit on the head, despite no evidence of head trauma?
The fact that she claimed to be drugged, despite there being no drugs in her system? (The NYT conveniently left that second bit out.)
Or the fact that she then claimed to have been black-out drunk, despite her BAC making that impossible?
Have you bothered to look at the State Attorney’s report with all the physical evidence and interview transcripts?
The NFL’s got serious issues with domestic violence. But anybody who isn’t too lazy and stupid to read the evidence would exclude that case from it.
But, hey, there’s a Sundance film. That’s even better than reading it on the Internets. So the bullshit goes on.
Have you read this]?
Yes, I have.
Boo,
Did you read the actual transcript or just the article? If you read the the transcript, you would have noticed most the “confusion” that was going on was simply clarifications of the actual proceedings. There were no complaints from any participants that something was amiss so the VICE story itself is engaging in a bit of hyperbole. Furthermore, if you would have read the transcript, you would have noticed the accuser never once attempted to enter any evidence into the proceedings. Every question and every statement was repeat of or a confirmation of her feelings that she had been raped.
Read through the comments in that attached VICE link, you’ll see a whole bunch of comments from me under the same user name detailing all of the changes in her story from initial investigation, to SAO investigation, to CoC investigation. I’ll give you a couple of the most recent changes:
– During the CoC hearing she brought out the line she was intimidated/forced to get in the cab with three strange blackmen. Never mind the fact she was there with her friends who testified to TPD and the SAO they saw the text asking the accuser to go outside and saw her willingly leave to go outside. And never mind the fact the area she got into the cab was filled with a large crowd of students and security. One yell or scream for help and she’s not getting into a cab. Oh, did I mention “strange blackmen?” How is it the accuser was able to identify Chris Casher to TPD as someone she talked to in the bar yet couldn’t place him in the cab with her and told police he was not with her during the assault? And why is the CoC the first time she tells anyone that Winston is the one who bought her shots at the bar?
– During the CoC the accuser for the first time described the actual physical nature of the attack, to include a graphic portrayal of the struggle in the bathroom. In the transcript testimony she describes Winston physically holding her down using one of his legs to pin hers and then forcefully pushed her head into the floor while the act continued. Have you seen a physical description of Winston? At the time he was 6′ 4″ and weighed between 210 and 220lbs. How is it possible that a man that big can forcefully hold someone down and not leave a mark, especially during a struggle? Read the SANE nurse’s statements…the only marks on the accuser were some mild redness on her knees and the tops of her feet along with a couple of brown-colored bruises (indicating older injury). At a minimum, wouldn’t there be redness on the accuser’s face from having someone’s hand pushing it into the ground? Where’s the scratches or bruising on her head from getting pushed into the floor? Redness/pain/swelling on the legs from being pinned to the floor by a much larger man?
Winston isn’t in jail and is going to be drafted by the NFL because he’s not guilty of a crime. The preponderance of the evidence does not support the accuser simple as that.
Winston’s behavior extends beyond the rape allegations. Stealing soda? Crab legs? Shouting obscenities in the student union? Shooting squirrels on campus?
His judgment on the football field is pretty good, but his judgment off the field is in legitimate question.
If he came out last year, he’d be the #1 pick, easily, or maybe #3 to Jacksonville. But in the intervening year you have Ray Rice, Greg Hardy, Adrian Peterson and Johnny Manziel.
They are going to be very careful in evaluating Winston’s maturity completely aside from the rape allegations.
(BTW, the police felt that Ray Rice did nothing wrong at first, too. Just saying.)
No doubt about it, Winston has shown immaturity several times. One of his biggest mistakes is not realizing the scrutiny a high profile college athlete gets. I for one am grateful that my actions as a 19 or 20 year old were not held up for examination. A lifetime of embarrassment would have ensued.
I would compare him to Nick O’Leary, Winston’s TE at FSU. O’Leary crashed his motorcycle. OK, that happens. Then he crashed it again. Hmmmm. Now he says he won’t be getting on any motorcycles. Good. But if a team finds out he’s been riding motorcycles, he’ll drop.
People do stupid things in their youth, but you look for the pattern of stupidity when assessing those risks.
Those are all instances of acting like an immature teenager. We should not approve but we shouldn’t pretend it’s much worse than what a lot of college kids do, including athletes who will go high in the draft.
There’s a 70-odd page police report out on the internet. Read it. The evidence is that Winston is probably innocent.
I don’t want to bad mouth an alleged victim of a sexual crime. But the fact of the matter is she changed her story three times in the first few hours after the alleged incident, claiming that she had been given a date rape drug and awoke to find him raping her (but there was no such drug found by the toxicology reports), that she was drunk and passed out and awoke to find him raping her (but the same reports found she could not have been that drunk), and then that she was forcibly raped by Winston in his bedroom (but this is contradicted by witnesses and there is no evidence of the physical trauma that went along with this story). The young lady subsequently changed her story several more times.
In addition, she had decided not to pursue her complaint (and declined FSU’s offer to switch her out of course sections she shared with Winston). It was only after some lawyers who graduated from the University of Florida (a big rival of FSU) found a report of the case and leaked it to TMZ that the whole thing became a story.
The police didn’t think there was a case. The DA didn’t think there was a case. And an FSU Title IX disciplinary hearing chaired by a retired Florida supreme court justice declined to find Winston in violation of FSU’s code of conduct.
I could go on, if you like, but you get the idea. Winston shouldn’t be maligned for this, based on what we know.
Probably innocent? How would we know?
This comment jibes with my prediction above. “I don’t need to read the SAO report. I read the NYT story.”
Are you really this much of a lazy-ass?
The relevant passage from that link:
How do you not mention the results of the toxicology report after writing that?
That NYT article conveniently does not mention a lot of things. The story of a prominent (entitled!) football player assaulting a young woman and getting away with it is indeed a compelling one. Many publications have ridden its click bait value. Read the evidence in the TPD report, he State Attorneys report and investigative materials here:
http://chopchat.com/2014/12/02/defense-jameis-winston/
Once again, how do three professional legal bodies look at the same evidence and all come to the same conclusion – no charges? The evidence and testimony did not warrant them. The reason Winston and his teammates chose not to testify at the COC hearing is that it was their determination that the accuser’s true intent was to pursue a civil lawsuit for damages and did not want to provide any more statements in a context where cross examination was not available.
…with its coverage of this incident.
Please read the actual police report and other associated documents. It is all right there. Whatever the deficiencies of the TPD, you can’t accept the story of someone who keeps changing it whenever the existing story gets proven wrong.
Btw, the latest, latest version of the story, which she told at the code of conduct hearing, is that she was raped in the bathroom, not the bedroom as she stated earlier, and that she kept changing her story because of memory lapses that arose from the trauma of the incident.
I don’t want to make light of such a serious thing, but PLEASE… get real. This is getting ridiculous at this point.
It is sad to see the NYT behave like Fox News on this topic, but they have shown no interest in reporting the truth.
I did some more reading about college campus rape allegations after feeling burned by the Rolling Stone UVA rape story that I totally bought into on reading it. That was when I learned of Jameis Winston and the rape allegation. My predisposition is to believe women. Immature and violent athletes at the high school, college, and professional level are repulsive to me. Jerry Rice is the kind of football player I could respect and enjoy watching him play. Needless to say, I stopped watching football games some time ago.
As I read through the reports on the Winston case I only had a vague sense that he was considered to be highly talented, but not even that he was viewed as exceptionally talented among his peer group of college athletes. So, whatever his talents are, that was irrelevant and immaterial to me. Also, I never view anything about Florida through positive lenses.
It discomforted me to read that information. By my standards, Winston may be a thoroughly repulsive creature. But the knowable facts and the inability of the claimed victim to tell her story without changing it when elements in it were proven not to have been possible, probable, or true led me to conclude that whatever occurred between her and Winston was mostly or completely consensual.
Oy!
I remember Peter with the Giants, too.
NOT the franchises shiniest moment!
But here, we’re talking about a QB – arguably the most important position in any team sport.
I firmly believe that if Charles Manson could throw the football, he’d be drafted early, too.
I would take Mariota over Winston even if Winston is the better QB and athlete.
There’s a good chance that Winston will continue to show flaws in his character.
Like the difference between A-Rod and Jeter – outside of the fact that A-Rod was the better Shortstop at the time he signed with the Yankees – is that Jeter has character, and A-Rod doesn’t.
Jeter’s career was flawless.
A-Rod’s?
Uhm…
Not so much.
Teams sign headcases, nuts, and sex offenders because I think they truly believe that if the player has the talent, that in their comforting and enveloping arms, the athlete can learn to avoid character issues.
But you can’t teach character to an adult.
I’m not even sure you can teach it in a child.
So after reading some of the more informed replies Boo, it should occur to you that you’ve been duped. Don’t worry, your not alone. I have to admit, I’m as big an FSU fan as they come but, at first, I thought he was probably guilty too. That is UNTIL I READ THE EVIDENCE!!! I’ll tell you what, I felt pretty ashamed for assuming. But you, Mr. Blogger, there is no excuse for posting the above without, obviously, at the very least having read the police reports. Much less the reports from the various investigations into this matter. For shame sir! Is your integrity really worth a few easy clicks? Please, read the official reports. I promise you will come away knowing that Winston being a rapist is anything but a forgone conclusion. Then, I will eagerly await your retraction.
The thing that is puzzling is that calling Winston a rapist in the headline of a post does not even meet common journalistic standards. Someone can be an “alleged rapist” prior to conviction. Someone convicted of the act is a rapist. What do you call someone who has not even been charged of a crime? Winston will forever be suspect to many eyes, but three investigative bodies found evidence lacking for charges. That means a lot to most people.
Nebraskans were so upset about Tom Osborne’s antics that they voted him into Congress twice!
http://www.si.com/vault/1995/09/25/206647/coach-and-jury-nebraska-players-charged-with-crimes-have-a
-steadfast-ally-in-the-man-who-runs-the-program-tom-osborne
But…but…but…wait a minute!!!
The NFL is the official sports face of the U.S.A., right? Used to be Major League Baseball, but that was before the U.S.A. became the crooked cop for NATO.
OK.
Why are you in any way upset over Jameis Winston being drafted for the NFL? He is a perfect “As above, so below” version of the application of U.S. policies in those areas of the world where economic rape…deniable economic rape, because the fix is always in when you are making money for the 1%…is a matter of Abu Ghraib-like course.
“I didn’t do it!!!” they all say.
“Where there is a great deal of of smoke there must be some fire,” I say.
Forget Jameis Winston.
Successfully prosecute Dick Cheney, Butch I and II, Henry Kissinger and whatever other neocon war criminals survive into the present day and the rotted-out husk of the NFL will either wither into a fond memory for the adolescent jerkoffs who call themselves “fans” or become a better…kinder, gentler, less criminal on every level…NFL.
Until then?
WTFU.
Turn the fucking TV off and find some other avenue for your unrequited adolescent bloodlusts.
Yours truly…
AG
Actually, that was before the ’90 baseball lockout and the ’94 baseball strike. That sequence of events turned me to football as a primary sport, which was no small feat. I was the kid going to bed with a transistor radio under my pillow so I could hear the Tigers’ west coast games. I as the kid who kept score watching the All Star game on TV (actually, on paper, keeping score). I was THAT kid, and if they lost me then they were in deep caca. When they cam back from the ’94 strike I figured they’d juiced the balls (i.e. wound them tighter) because home runs were going through the roof, but it turns out that the players were juiced. I don’t find this coincidental, as MLB almost killed the goose that laid the golden eggs. But, you know, “chicks dig the long ball” or some such nonsense. It worked, to the extent that they’re still ahead of the NHL and the NBA in revenue.
I’m not much of a spectator sports fan — but it seems to me that for a time baseball was almost a perfect one. Individual and collective efforts were easy for observers to recognize and applaud. Non-violent and not tolerated when brawls erupt. Once integrated, no specific size or racial group dominated the teams. Young kids learned how to read and understand stats and could play the game themselves at school or in sandlots — girls too. And that specific sound, the crack, of a bat hitting a ball that said, I’m outta here.
Sweet.
I’d set the beginning of its downfall earlier than you did with the strikes. Those were responses to and aggravated what has been happening for a while. Tickets prices and TV receipts had been rising and mostly flowing to the owners (1%) and not appropriately being shared with the workers. Not allowing an expansion of franchises in keeping with the population growth. Now ticket prices are out of reach for most families. Poor kids that fall in love with the game can’t even dream of ever seeing one live. (Did you read Pete Hamill’s “Snow in August?” (I love that book. Or see “42?” — an underrated movie IMO.)
First graf refers to Winston as “Florida quarterback.” This Gator alum urges you to correct the record. Winston plays for Florida State.
I think that in situations like this, the NFL (or any other sport) has to rely on the criminal justice system. If a player is accused of a crime, it’s the job of the courts to decide whether the player is guilty, not the Commissioner of the sports league.
I recall that in 1973, there was a baseball player named Cesar Cedeno, whose girlfriend was killed in a hotel room when Cedeno’s gun went off. A Dominican Republic court fined Cedeno $100 for involuntary manslaughter. A lot of fans thought that Cedeno was a murderer, but because he wasn’t charged, much less convicted, of murder, he continued to play for another 13 seasons in the major leagues.
It isn’t the job of sports to second guess the courts. There are players that I cannot root for because of crimes that I suspect that they have committed, but as long as they are innocent in the eyes of the law, I don’t see what justification there would be in banning them from the game.
I keep circling back to Ray Rice and how the police and courts really barely slapped him on the wrist. As far as I know, Ray Rice was never convicted of a crime and pleaded out to some lesser charge and did some community service.
We – as a society – give a lot to sports franchises: anti-trust exemptions, tax breaks, stadiums.
Maybe we’re being hypocritical in expecting these people to behave to a higher standard, but I think that’s the new normal.
I’m a bit agnostic on this one. In terms of employment someone being accused of a crime is no basis for refusing them employment. Even conviction – once they’ve served their time – should be no barrier to employment, with some obvious caveats (child molesters can’t be teachers, inside traders can’t work in financial services, etc.). On the other hand, it is entirely appropriate to refuse to hire someone that will by their very presence reduce a company’s profitability. So regardless of the actual guilt or innocence, if associating with the accused will hurt a franchise then it makes sense for the franchise to refuse to hire the accused.
It’s messy, and I’m not vested in the outcome.
No doubt it is socially fashionable to be an advocate for rape victims. From the flawed Rolling Stone hit piece on UVA, to the upcoming CNN “documentary” the Hunting Ground”, to your own “A Rapist as the Face of the NFL” – the drum beats loudly, facts be damned (or at least overlooked).
The “victim” for whom you use as the basis for claiming Jameis Winston is a rapist has been demonstrably proven a liar. She is also proven to have withheld pertinent information from State investigators, and is suspected by the State of attempting to tamper with at least one witness (Monica Kessler) and most likely two (Marcus Jordan). This is all corroborated by the sworn statements of HER FRIENDS that were with her on the night in question. Moreover the physical evidence (Admitting nurse’s report and toxicology reports) directly contradict each of the girl’s three (now four) versions of what happened that night.
On the other side we have a college athlete that has not been proven to have lied, withheld information, or tampered with evidence. The physical evidence and sworn statements of 4 different individuals corroborate his story. And three independent judicial bodies have reviewed the evidence and testimony and determined not only that charges are not warranted but went so far as to not even meet the minimal (“a preponderance of the evidence”) standard that would result in even a reprimand.
You are carrying the water for the outrage du jour but history (past and future) will show that you are on the wrong side of justice.
Can someone remind me why it is that some people feel that Al Sharpton owns them an apology?