Eleven years can do bad things to your memory. I was as close to certain as certain can be that it was Brit Hume who asked Al Sharpton to explain his understanding of the Federal Reserve during a debate in New Hampshire in 2004, but it turns out that it was Peter Jennings. What I must have been remembering was Hume laughing and crowing afterward about Sharpton’s inability to answer the question. I also didn’t realize that it was a joint FOX/ABC debate. I thought it was sponsored solely by FOX, although ABC has traditionally been almost as partisan in the way they treat these debates.
A sample from April 16, 2008:
STEPHANOPOULOS: A gentleman named William Ayers. He was part of the Weather Underground in the 1970s. They bombed the Pentagon, the Capitol, and other buildings. He’s never apologized for that. And in fact on 9/11 he was quoted in The New York Times saying ‘I dont regret setting bombs I feel we did not do enough.’ An early organizing meeting for your state Senate campaign was held at his house, and your campaign has said you are ‘friendly.’ Can you explain that relationship for the voters and explain to Democrats why it won’t be a problem?
In any case, going back to the 2004 debate in New Hampshire, the FOX/ABC moderators were trolling the Democratic candidates all night. It opened with a question from Jennings for John Kerry:
JENNINGS: In your career, you voted to raise billions of dollars in taxes. You’ve advocated spending billions more in this particular campaign. So I would like you at the outset to put yourself in a moment, on a stage like this, if you’re the nominee sometime during the fall. And if you are the nominee, what will you say exactly, precisely, if at that time President Bush says, “Senator Kerry is going to raise your taxes and I am not”?
Then he asked Howard Dean to answer the same question, but with a proviso that he could use all his time to talk about “The Scream” if he’d prefer to do that:
JENNINGS: Governor Dean, I’m going to ask you the same question. It happened, of course, to Governor Dukakis, to Walter Mondale and to Al Gore. And you are supporting more tax increases than Senator Kerry.
But I do also, in fairness, want to give you a choice here, if you’d like to use some of the time to talk about — or maybe all the time, your choice — to talk about what some people think was your overly enthusiastic speech to you supporters the other night, which many people actually think has hurt your candidacy…
In fairness, last night’s debate followed a somewhat similar pattern, at least in the tendency to gather up negative stuff and throw it in the faces of the candidates.
Right off the bat, for example, Trump was asked to pledge that he wouldn’t run as an independent, which he refused to do. And then Megyn Kelly went after Ben Carson:
KELLY: Your critics say that your inexperience shows. You’ve suggested that the Baltic States are not a part of NATO, just months ago you were unfamiliar with the major political parties and government in Israel, and domestically, you thought Alan Greenspan had been treasury secretary instead of federal reserve chair.
Aren’t these basic mistakes, and don’t they raise legitimate questions about whether you are ready to be president?
What stood out about the Federal Reserve question posed to Al Sharpton by Peter Jennings was that it was a “one-of-these-things-is-not-like-the-other” kind of thing. He asked Kerry about how he could beat Bush given his record on taxes and Dean about The Scream that had been airing constantly on cable news ever since the Iowa caucuses, but Sharpton got a detailed philosophical policy question in an area where the moderators had decided he was weak. All were tough questions in their way, but only one was actually substantive. And the message was clear: the moderators didn’t think Al Sharpton belonged on the stage.
And maybe he didn’t. At the time, I actually thought it was a good question, and Sharpton’s total inability to answer was informative. The only reason it was unfair was because they didn’t ask the other candidates questions that were similar in kind and intent.
When Kelly challenged Ben Carson on his lack of basic geographical and economic knowledge, it went to his preparedness to be president, not merely his skills as a politician. I think that’s a better question than, “hey, do you want to talk about how much people are making fun of your scream?”
But there’s also a gotcha quality to all these questions that really undermines the point of having a debate about issues. At a minimum, there should be a distinction between pointing out that a candidate has been saying some really crazy, dishonest or just plain misinformed shit on the campaign trail and asking them to respond to really crazy, dishonest or just plain misinformed shit people have been saying about them during the campaign. The Stephanopoulus question to Obama about William Ayers was definitely in this latter category, while asking Ben Carson about why he thought Alan Greenspan was the Treasury Secretary and the Baltic States were not part of NATO is in the former category.
They did better last night when they let Rand Paul and Chris Christie fight about the right balance between protecting people’s privacy and fighting terrorism. Within the constraints of the format, it wasn’t possible to have a good debate on this issue, but people did at least get a sense for where each candidate stood, and why. And at least it’s an issue and a philosophical difference, which is not something you could really say about Howard Dean’s scream.
I thought the whole thing was unwatchable and I gave up after 20 minutes. It wasn’t a “debate” at all, of course, just a sequential Q&A, with no follow up. The most ridiculous thing (which nobody seems to mention) is Rand Paul saying that what he would do about ISIS is stop funding and arming their allies. What the fuck is he talking about? Nobody batted an eye. There were lots of similar alternate universe responses that just went right by. It was absurd.
Was he taking about Turkey, which has been accused of backing ISIS against the Kurds? Certainly not something that has been proven. Amplification might be enlightening if the moderators were actually interested in anything beyond ratings, which necessitates a Maury Povich approach.
Rand Paul is correct, it’s just too circuitous to explain.
Saudi Arabia created the Taliban and the mindset that bin-Laden took with his purity test and also the Sunni insurgency in Iraq and the warriors fighting Assad in Syria.
You can pretend that there’s a “good” side to this Sunni radicalism, but there is not.
Yabbut the U.S. does not fund and arm Saudi Arabia. They have their own cash.
link
That’s not funding, that’s selling arms. And while we do arm Saudi Arabia, the arms that ISIS are using are not coming from there – it’s mostly small arms bought on the market, or arms they have captured.
We sell them the weapons for which they pay good cash. That’s how they recycled the petro-dollars we used to send them. We don’t “arm” or “fund” them, we do business with them. If the U.S. were to refuse to sell weapons to Saudi Arabia, they’d buy them somewhere else.
This isn’t hard.
The al-Qaeda nightmare is Saudi Arabia in conjunction with the CIA working together against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. The Taliban was established by Pakistan’s ISI, undoubtedly with knowledge and support from our CIA. See the Zbigniew Brzezinski doctrine initiated under Jimmy Carter. Same shit in Bosnia under Bill Clinton and duplicated by HRC in Libya and Syria under Barack Obama.
○ US Forces Being Back-Stabbed by Pakistan Military
Hallmark of Sunni violence are the suicide car bombs as seen early on in Damascus … not domestic origin, but performed under direction and support from Saudi Arabia. Same violence in Anbar province and in a divided Baghdad during the US occupation of Iraq.
○ Is Iran the Most Dangerous Nation on Earth?
You’re right!! like
Bán den led | gian phoi | dich vu sua nha uy tín
Remenber Benghazi? CIA controlled and coordinated arms shipments from Libya via Turkey to militants in Northern Syria. Not just a few arms, thousands of tonnes shipped with funding from Qatar especially into Turkey and spread to armed jihadist groups in Syria. Same as arms into Bosnia during the nineties under the Clinton administration, establishing an Al Qaeda footprint in Europe.
○ Obama Got It Wrong On Strength Islamic State
○ Clinton’s 21st Century Statecraft and the Land of the Two Rivers
○ Don’t Call Them Al Qaeda, Terror Coming from ISIS (aka AQI, IS)
Turkey has been attacking the PKK, but not because they are “allies” of ISIS. Nor does the U.S. fund and arm Turkey, which would seem to be a fundamental objection to that interpretation.
You are about as wrong as it is possible to be.
No I am not. That is a tiny fraction of Turkey’s military budget and if it weren’t happening, it would have precisely zero effect on their ability to attack the PKK.
I am not wrong, you are wrong.
Also, too, regarding Turkey being an “ally” of IS:
Turkey had stayed largely on the sidelines in the war against IS until recently, mostly because they saw no particular reason to help Bashar al Assad. But they certainly weren’t an “ally” of IS. Furthermore, the PKK is based in Iraqi Kurdistan and it is those bases that Turkey has been attacking, not Kurdish positions in Syria that are confronting IS. So this entire argument is complete BS.
Off topic here, but the Kurds are the good guys throughout the last few decades. It’s high time we let them have their own state and screw Turkey.
Turkey is a NATO member. All NATO members get aid from the US, even if the aid is just perks. I know that in the past we gave them destroyers and possibly a submarine or two. Along with providing technical and maintenance support for those ships and their equipment.
I don’t know about the Army or their Air Force, but I suspect it’s similar. Weren’t they flying F-104’s? I worked for the US Navy in the ’60s and ’70s. I’m only sure about grants and foreign military sales that went through my agency, however I’d be very surprised if the land and air forces weren’t doing the same.
Sold plenty to Iran also. To the Shah, I mean.
At least Rand Paul knew what he was talking about … unless you prefer the stupidity of McCain or policy makers in the White House since February 2011. Unbelievable!
Simply look at where all the arms went the US and allies shipped across the Turkish border into Syria!
○ US mercenaries trained and equipped as Foward Air Controllers ambushed by al-Nusra Front near Aleppo | MofA |
○ MIT censored: Turkish gov’t plotted with smuggler “recruiting foreign fighters and smuggling arms to Syria”
○ Turkey In Alliance with ISIS – Undermining Obama’s Policy In Iraq
○ In Joe Biden’s Own Words of Truth; Our Arab Allies Funded ISIS!
No, he doesn’t know what he is talking about. The U.S. does not fund and arm Turkey. Also, Turkey is not allied with IS, they’re just at war with the PKK.
Pls do yr homework!
Usually, you get the immediate post-debate commentary, followed over the next few days by the post-post-debate commentary that actually anoints the winner. (Think the Bush-Gore debate where Gore “won” the post-debate and lost the post-post-debate.)
But I wonder if the ability of the punditry to define the post-post-debate still exists. Clearly, everyone with a brain on the GOP side wants Trump gone and so they will say he got pasted. There could be a Rubio boomlet as they likely settle on him as the winner.
Or have they so lost control of their Teanderthal monster that they can’t spin there way away from the slobbering rage monster in the horrific hair helmet?
But I wonder if the ability of the punditry to define the post-post-debate still exists.
I think this absolutely is the right question.
In 2000 we saw how early post-debate polls favored Gore but the post-debate smears about Gore’s “sighs” and minor details he may have gotten wrong (while ignoring Bush’s major gaps in understanding) changed the view later.
In 2004 we saw this repeat when Bush had horrible performance after horrible performance and the press not only chose to ignore the obvious ear piece in the first debate (remember “now let me finish” to no one in particular in the middle of one answer?) but also to ignore his major misteps – like “it’s an ex-ag-er-a-tion” in the third debate when he forgot he said he wasn’t concerned about OBL. Instead the press focused on made up shit like how-dare-you-mention-cheney’s-daughter-is-openly-gay.
But in 2008 things began to change. All of the on-air commentators were ready to award the first debate to McCain but the snap polling numbers came in saying Obama had won in a landslide and they were dumbfounded. The ever-growing internet/social media meant that people were forming their own opinions from the sites they trusted, not waiting for the panel of DC millionaires to weigh in.
Last night Fox – which is the quasi-official media source for the GOP party elders – had a very clear agenda to advance certain candidates above the others. This was evident from the questions and from the post-debate analysis, which had a strong sense of having been scripted in advance. But it appears they failed. Rubio may get a slight boost, but no more. Trump – who they were clearly trying to shoot down – is coming away even stronger. Fox didn’t get that saying things like bimbo, slut, fat pig are exactly what the base does and what the base loves about Trump. Fox didn’t get that Trump having given to Democrats isn’t a problem because he says that’s the way the system works – and I know how to work the system. Mostly, Fox didn’t get that Trump’s belligerence is EXACTLY what the base wants.
What Christie fans don’t get is that the difference between Christie and Trump is that Christie treats everyone like shit – Trump treats the “other” – minorities, slutty women, liberals – like shit.
The trend these last few years is that the GOP elders have lost control of the beast they created with this angry white electorate and that trend continues.
Ed Kilgore also saw this as an attempted take down of Trump:
Fox News’ purpose in the main 10-candidate event was made plain with the first question: an in-your-face spotlight on Donald Trump’s refusal to promise not to run as an independent candidate. And the relentless pounding of Trump–on his bankruptcies, his past support for single-payer health care and abortion rights, his “specific evidence” for claiming Mexico has dispatched criminals to the U.S. (slurs about immigrants by other candidates didn’t come up) and even his sexist tweets—continued right on through to Frank Luntz’s post-debate focus group, designed to show how much damage Trump had sustained. It was by far the least impartial showing by debate sponsors I have seen, up to and including the disgraceful ABC-moderated 2008 Democratic event that involved a deliberate trashing of all the candidates.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/cafe/fox-news-control-over-gop-debates
An even more important distinction between Christie and Trump is that Christie is a “try hard”. He’s uncool. For someone like Trump, the dickishness just comes easily. He’s a natural. Meryl Streep was right, all those years ago.
“… everyone with a brain on the GOP side…”
You dreamer!
Interestingly, the unscientific who-did-you-like polls on media sites all had about the same result: Trump the overwhelming winner with almost 50%, then Carson, Rubio, and Kasich in that order, all near 10%. I figured the Drudge unscientific polls would be garbage but it wasn’t really all that different, with Cruz at #2 with 14% and Kasich down in the pack, as you’d expect with a hyper-conservative audience.
I couldn’t find any scientific polling.
me how much anticipation there was about the debate. It used to be accepted wisdom that a contested primary hurt the party.
But I wonder. If debates generate attention, maybe it helps to have contested primaries. You can argue that Obama benefited in ’08.
Debates are always attacked as not really being debates etc. But they are miles better than anything else that happens in a campaign.
This:
Much better than the endless, soft-focus lens, TV ads of the candidate with his/her family, including the dog or cat. Or the other stock forms of ads that are pure advertising garbage.
I could not believe the abortion discussion. Their position sets up another round of the GOP mansplaining what rape, incest, and how they no longer care about the health of the mother.
Dirty bag of tricks, but failed to launch. This is a doozy. MI teabag freshmen state reps had a terrific idea.
Detroit News: Recordings: State rep asked aide to hide relationship
Presumably, once the media and public got beyond the initial shock and outrage over the claim (the guy is a married Xtian fundie), they’d get down to investigating it. Once they determined that it was a baseless hoax, they’d lose interest in any extramarital sex claims about this guy.
If Fox (Murdoch, Inc) intended to use the debates to take down Trump, they forgot a key element of their prime audience that they’ve nurtured for all these years. When anyone on “their side” is disproportionately attacked they lapse into victim mode and rally to the defense of the perceived victim, even if they didn’t previously much like the victim.
Carson also appears to have gotten a little bounce for the same reason even though most of what came out of his mouth was inanities.
Bush came in second wrt the amount of time he managed to speak, but not being under attack by the Fox moderators, his lame responses were seen/heard and he was not accordingly not rewarded by the audiences.
The guys that were mostly left alone used their time to dig their own graves. Or not in the case of Kasich.
Fox did succeed in boosting the stature of the milquetoast, empty suit Rubio. But he won’t fare as well in one of the next rounds.